The Unknown Zone - proudly an American forum!

What do you think of the new law?

1. What do you think of it?

2. Should Indiana have one like it?

3. Do you think it should have included the people who hire the aliens with large fines?

4 Do you think the police would ever "abuse" their power in enforcing this law?

  In some ways I think it's a good law, along over due law.  But, I think they should have went after the people who hire the illegal iliens with the same vigor.  With large fines and with jail time for repeat offenders.

  Will the police abuse the power of the law.  Your damn right they will.  They abuse any new law that give them more increase in power.  I think the new police are paramilitary thugs with a bad attitude, they sure not peace officers anymore.  They are revenue collectors and jailers.  No common sense.

  Remember when the state of Indiana passed the first seat belt law, saying the police wouldn't pull you over for it, not so.  When they passed the stronger bill, that they could stop you for that alone.

   A couple of days after the law was passed,  two Indianapolis cops and their cars, were down the street from Ford Motor Co. on English Ave.  pulling cars over and ticketing the men, who were leaving work and didn't have their seatbelts on.  From what I heard the Plant Manager called the Mayor and complained about it, never seen them again.

   I sure is going to be interesting when and if Washington gets into it.  Nobody wants to touch this hot potato this close to the election.  The Republican sure doesn't want any part of it, just like they didn't touch it, while George W. was in.   :yes: :biggrin:

Where did the other thread go?

I wondered the same thing.

Quote from: followsthewolf on April 29, 2010, 09:04:55 PM
I wondered the same thing.

Quote from: kimmi on April 29, 2010, 07:49:40 PM
Where did the other thread go?

You mean this one? (It's in the Hawks nest)   :smile:

http://theunknownzone.us/smf/index.php?topic=16896.msg357170#new (http://theunknownzone.us/smf/index.php?topic=16896.msg357170#new)

Thanx.

Quote from: followsthewolf on April 29, 2010, 09:46:19 PM
Thanx.

You are quite welcome. Hard to keep track without a program!  :biggrin:

Quote from: The Troll on April 29, 2010, 10:45:23 AM
What do you think of the new law?

1. What do you think of it? Weak

2. Should Indiana have one like it?

3. Do you think it should have included the people who hire the aliens with large fines? No, we should shoot them, or imprison them

4 Do you think the police would ever "abuse" their power in enforcing this law? When do the fascists never break the law or act like Cretans?

(CNN) -- I am white. I know that's a terribly big surprise, considering that I write a blog called Stuff White People Like, but I mean it, I'm white.
Like really white.
I'm not attempting to assert some sort of superiority through my whiteness; quite the opposite actually. Thanks to my liberal upbringing, I am imbued with the appropriate amount of guilt and shame about my ancestors and their actions in the New World.
Even in my home, I can't offer a blanket to a nonwhite friend without the fear that they will look at me and say "no smallpox on this right?" A joke, but I still want to apologize.
I'm a white male. I belong to a group that pretty much always been able to own land and to vote. I'm more or less from the kind that grabbed power somewhere after the fall of Rome and never let go. In other words, I'm the kind of white guy that has never experienced any real oppression.
Although I guess my ancestors technically left England because of some religious persecution and in spite of a rough boat ride and a rough first Thanksgiving, it's safe to say it worked out pretty well. Unless you got one of those aforementioned blankets.
But in addition to being white and having ancestors on the Mayflower, I'm also Canadian. Yes, I know that might actually make me more white than before, but it also technically makes me an immigrant to this country.
Still, I am loath to call myself an immigrant because I don't want to demean the very real, very difficult challenges faced by immigrants to this country who have had to overcome differences in language, culture and distance from their families. I would say my biggest hardship has been trying to find Ketchup Chips.
But in the eyes of the U.S. government, I am an immigrant, the same as someone from China, Mexico or India. I would not be in this country had I not met my wife in graduate school, and I am thankful every day for her and the opportunity to live in the United States.
So when the census came around, I was absolutely thrilled. I've lived in the United States for eight years (four of them as a graduate student), and in that time, I have never been able to vote or access any public services. The census meant I was going to be counted, I was going to be a part of American history. A good part, not that blanket part.
When the form arrived, I scanned the options and quickly checked "white." I would have checked "Canadian" but that option wasn't anywhere to be found. There it was, I was a white American, or technically a white American Permanent Resident. But then I started thinking about what it really means to be a white American.
As long as America has been around, I would have been considered white. I would have checked the same box in the 1790 census, had my relatives decided to stay on their land instead of moving to Canada to stay loyal to the King of England. But not everyone who checked that box on the census has always been considered white. Irish, Italian, Jewish, German and Eastern European have all been considered not white. or at the very least "not American."
All of these groups came to America amid widespread discrimination, and yet through the process of assimilation and Americanization, the status of white was slowly conferred upon them (read "The History of White People" or "How the Irish Became White" for actual, intelligent research on how this happened).
And with this new-found white status also came the status of "ethnically American." Of course, a lot of people will say that there is no such thing as an ethnic American and that everyone who becomes a citizen is an American. And this is true to the letter of the law, but if we consider the popular perception of immigration and the American dream, to say that white skin has nothing to do with it would be complete folly.
In the popular myth, immigrants arrive as huddled masses yearning to be free and most of the women wear scarves around their head. They move to the Lower East Side or some other suitably "ethnic" community, they change a last name, they learn English and within one generation they are welcomed into the country as ethnic Americans and granted that wonderful privilege of checking the white box on the census.
The reality is that America has a long history of welcoming immigrants who will never be able to check that white box on the census, and unfortunately that means America also has a long history of discrimination against those people regardless of their status in the country. Just one example would be the treatment of Japanese-Americans during World War II contrasted against the treatment of German-Americans.
But all of that was in the past right? Well, ask yourself this: Who is more likely to get pulled over and forced to show his papers in Arizona today? A first generation Canadian immigrant, or a 10th generation Mexican-American?
What I hope this census will force the country to deal with is the fact that white immigrants like me will never again make up the majority of people that come to this country. America is not getting whiter, it will never get whiter. Well, unless we start handing those blankets out again.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/29/lander.who.am.i/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/29/lander.who.am.i/index.html?hpt=T2)

Quote
A group of artists has been asked to lighten the faces of children depicted in a giant public mural at a Prescott school.

The project's leader says he was ordered to lighten the skin tone after complaints about the children's ethnicity. But the school's principal says the request was only to fix shading and had nothing to do with political pressure.

The "Go on Green" mural, which covers two walls outside Miller Valley Elementary School, was designed to advertise a campaign for environmentally friendly transportation. It features portraits of four children, with a Hispanic boy as the dominant figure.

R.E. Wall, director of Prescott's Downtown Mural Project, said he and other artists were subjected to slurs from motorists as they worked on the painting at one of the town's most prominent intersections.

"We consistently, for two months, had people shouting racial slander from their cars," Wall said. "We had children painting with us, and here come these yells of (epithet for Blacks) and (epithet for Hispanics)."

Quote
In a broadcast last month, according to the Daily Courier in Prescott, Blair mistakenly complained that the most prominent child in the painting is African-American, saying: "To depict the biggest picture on the building as a Black person, I would have to ask the question: Why?"

Quote
Faces in the mural were drawn from photographs of children enrolled at Miller Valley, a K-5 school with 380 students and the highest ethnic mix of any school in Prescott. Wall said thousands of town residents volunteered or donated to the project, the fourth in a series of community murals painted by a group of artists known as the "Mural Mice."

Well, the "reason why" is that the mural was representative of the students in the school.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/04/20100604arizona-mural-sparks-racial-debate.html

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 06, 2010, 11:26:44 AM

Well, the "reason why" is that the mural was representative of the students in the school.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/04/20100604arizona-mural-sparks-racial-debate.html

  You know, I don't care what color they are.  Paint them as you see them.  Color matters little.

  What I want to know is how many of them are here illegalilly with parents that are here illegalilly.  Cut off the illegal jobs and put the people who are hiring them in prison.  What I don't understand is,what the people who are defending them, doesn't know what illegal means.

Bad Arizona! No cookies for you!

Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 04:09:23 AM
Bad Arizona! No cookies for you!

    NO COOKIES?  Cookie Monster loooves cooookies. :yes: :biggrin:

QuoteWe'll leave it to others to decide whether Arizona's new immigration law is a good thing or a bad thing — but here we try to straighten out some of the confusing factual claims. First, a quick summary. Contrary to what the law's defenders often say, the new statute does more than merely mirror federal law. For example:

    * It's a state crime for an illegal immigrant to apply for a job, or to solicit work publicly.
    * The law also makes it a misdemeanor for a citizen driving a vehicle to stop to hire anyone if that "impedes" traffic.
    * Citizens will be able to sue officials or agencies whose policies interfere with vigorous enforcement of federal immigration law.

On the much-discussed issue of whether the law permits or encourages "racial profiling," we find:

   * The amended law allows police to consider "race, color or national origin" when deciding whether to ask somebody for proof of citizenship, but only to the extent already deemed constitutional by the courts.
    * It remains to be seen how police will interpret the law's anti-profiling language in practice. State officials tell us they have yet to work out what factors police should be trained to use to establish "reasonable suspicion" of illegal status.
    * Federal officials are open to criticisms similar to some of those being made about Arizona's law. A federal manual for training state and local officials says they may consider whether a person has a "thick foreign accent" or looks "out of place" when deciding whether to ask them about their immigration status.

Finally, we examine a widely circulated chain e-mail written by an Arizona state senator who supports the law, and find her claims to be misleading. The violence against ranchers that she describes is real, but it is the work of Mexican crime cartels, not illegal immigrants.

http://factcheck.org/2010/06/arizonas-papers-please-law/

Quote from: The Troll on June 06, 2010, 12:40:58 PM
  You know, I don't care what color they are.  Paint them as you see them.  Color matters little.

  What I want to know is how many of them are here illegalilly with parents that are here illegalilly.  Cut off the illegal jobs and put the people who are hiring them in prison.  What I don't understand is,what the people who are defending them, doesn't know what illegal means.

every once in a while you say something that makes darn good sense.... :razz: :yes:

Due process mean anything to you people?

Well, if you had any common sense, Henry, then you'd know that it's not about the definition of illegal or even defense of illegal aliens. It's about creating laws which allow such loose interpretation and therefore sre enabling law enforcement and others to infringe on the rights of Americans. No one said that the problem doesn't need to be dealt with. We're saying there are better ways.

So no, just because you like something, doesn't make it common sense. If you like it then it's most definately an inability to reason.

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 15, 2010, 05:27:36 PM
Well, if you had any common sense, Henry, then you'd know that it's not about the definition of illegal or even defense of illegal aliens. It's about creating laws which allow such loose interpretation and therefore sre enabling law enforcement and others to infringe on the rights of Americans. No one said that the problem doesn't need to be dealt with. We're saying there are better ways.

So no, just because you like something, doesn't make it common sense. If you like it then it's most definately an inability to reason.

Exactly Sandy!  :yes: :yes: :yes:

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 15, 2010, 05:27:36 PM
Well, if you had any common sense, Henry, then you'd know that it's not about the definition of illegal or even defense of illegal aliens. It's about creating laws which allow such loose interpretation and therefore sre enabling law enforcement and others to infringe on the rights of Americans. No one said that the problem doesn't need to be dealt with. We're saying there are better ways.

So no, just because you like something, doesn't make it common sense. If you like it then it's most definately an inability to reason.

How is that law infringing on the rights of Americans?  Yes, someone who became a citizen through the proper channels may get questioned and if they have their papers, which they are required to carry with them at all times anyway, they show them and there is no harm done.  If, however, the question someone and they are not obviously a citizen and they don't have their papers then, yes, it would be up to them to prove they were a citizen and they would be inconvenienced until they do.  Go to Mexico and take a bunch of people with you and protest their immigration laws and see how far you get.  They have no call to say ours are unfair. While you're at it see if you can get welfare and free health care from their government while you're there.  Hey, fair is fair.  If they can demand it from us we should be able to demand it from them. 

Quote from: me on June 15, 2010, 05:41:18 PM
How is that law infringing on the rights of Americans?  Yes, someone who became a citizen through the proper channels may get questioned and if they have their papers, which they are required to carry with them at all times anyway, they show them and there is no harm done.  If, however, the question someone and they are not obviously a citizen and they don't have their papers then, yes, it would be up to them to prove they were a citizen and they would be inconvenienced until they do.  Go to Mexico and take a bunch of people with you and protest their immigration laws and see how far you get.  They have no call to say ours are unfair. While you're at it see if you can get welfare and free health care from their government while you're there.  Hey, fair is fair.  If they can demand it from us we should be able to demand it from them.

Bullshit. If they are a citizen they are a citizen. It should not matter if they are a naturalized citizen or an immigrated citizen. Period. Why should any citizen have to carry papers?

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 05:24:17 PM
Due process mean anything to you people?

It does not seem to appear here.

Quote from: followsthewolf on June 15, 2010, 05:48:18 PM
It does not seem to appear here.

Racial profiling - another indicator to add to the list.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 05:43:47 PM
Bullshit. If they are a citizen they are a citizen. It should not matter if they are a naturalized citizen or an immigrated citizen. Period. Why should any citizen have to carry papers?

It's the law.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 05:49:29 PM
Racial profiling - another indicator to add to the list.

There you go with that racial thing again.  If you are looking for a Mexican drug dealer or robber are you going to stop someone of another race just to keep from "racial profiling?"  If you are looking for an illegal immigrant are you going to stop someone who speaks perfect English, is black and in a suit or blond and fair complected or are you going to stop someone who is speaking a foreign language or very poor broken English, and looks like a Mexican or another nationality? 

Quote from: me on June 15, 2010, 05:50:04 PM
It's the law.

  It's a good law.  Something had to be done.  It the same law the the federal government has, but never unforced.

  It's a good law is the damn cops don't abuse it.  Most likely they will, they always do.  Love that power.  Bullies.

  The Troll  :yes: :yes: :yes: :smile:

Well, of course only naturalized citizens look foreign and all naturalized citizens look Mexican. Why wouldn't be easy to quickly identify those who are possibly illegal? Doh!

Quote from: me on June 15, 2010, 05:57:22 PM
There you go with that racial thing again.  If you are looking for a Mexican drug dealer or robber are you going to stop someone of another race just to keep from "racial profiling?"  If you are looking for an illegal immigrant are you going to stop someone who speaks perfect English, is black and in a suit or blond and fair complected or are you going to stop someone who is speaking a foreign language or very poor broken English, and looks like a Mexican or another nationality?

Hitler went down that path, and apparently America is hell-bent on repeating their mistake. America never learns from its mistakes; just look at the oil spill. . .

Quote from: me on June 15, 2010, 05:50:04 PM
It's the law.

Bullshit. Only those here on visa's etc. are required to carry their paperwork.

Hell, you want to get technical? All of you get the hell out! My ancestors were here first!

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 06:26:41 PM


Hell, you want to get technical? All of you get the hell out! My ancestors were here first!

:headbang: O0 :clap: :clap: :dance: :dance: :bow: :bow: :sofa: :cheshire: :wave: :hug:

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 06:26:41 PM
Bullshit. Only those here on visa's etc. are required to carry their paperwork.

Hell, you want to get technical? All of you get the hell out! My ancestors were here first!

  OK, OK, OK we'll do it your way.  Since the religion in Mexico is Catholic that mean no birth control.  A lot of young Mexicans.  Where in Mexico the rich own 95% of all the money and don't give a damn about the other people and not give them a job or an education.  Breed them and send them North.

  We will do it your way, hell open the borders, do away with the  fences.  Do away of the points of entry.  Everthing will be great.

let everybody coming from the South in.  We need all of the South Americans we can get.   People with no education, no money, every disease known to man to take these jobs no American would take even if they were starving.

  The Troll  :nocomment:  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 06:26:41 PM
Only those here on visa's etc. are required to carry their paperwork.

I want to be riding shotgun the next time a cop asks for your license.

Quote from: LOsborne on June 15, 2010, 07:39:02 PM
I want to be riding shotgun the next time a cop asks for your license.

Okay smartass. I was not talking about a driver's license, but now that you've pointed it out I stand corrected.

Now, as a member of the ani-yun-wi-ya tribe, I state all of you are illegally in this country and should get the hell out! Papers, drivers license, visas, passports, all of you out.

Quote from: The Troll on June 15, 2010, 07:37:06 PM
  OK, OK, OK we'll do it your way.  Since the religion in Mexico is Catholic that mean no birth control.  A lot of young Mexicans.  Where in Mexico the rich own 95% of all the money and don't give a damn about the other people and not give them a job or an education.  Breed them and send them North.

  We will do it your way, hell open the borders, do away with the  fences.  Do away of the points of entry.  Everthing will be great.

let everybody coming from the South in.  We need all of the South Americans we can get.   People with no education, no money, every disease known to man to take these jobs no American would take even if they were starving.

  The Troll  :nocomment:  :rolleyes:

Not surprisingly you miss the entire point. Ginko will help with that!

Now, as a member of the ani-yun-wi-ya tribe, I state all of you are illegally in this country and should get the hell out! Papers, drivers license, visas, passports, all of you out. Pollocks, Wops, Spics, Jews, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Italians, Serbs, Croats, French, Spanish, Kurds, Muslims, Blacks, South Africans, English, Irish, Scots, Australians, New Zelanders, New Guineans, Aboriginals, Slavs, Fins, Germans, Russians, Cubans, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Iraqis, Afghans, Iranians, Saudi's, and every single one of you european pirates get the hell out of our country and stay out!

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 07:46:27 PM
Not surprisingly you miss the entire point. Ginko will help with that!

Now, as a member of the ani-yun-wi-ya tribe, I state all of you are illegally in this country and should get the hell out! Papers, drivers license, visas, passports, all of you out. Pollocks, Wops, Spics, Jews, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans.... and stay out!

What about the ELFs? As a rule, they have really good documentation.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 07:46:27 PM
Not surprisingly you miss the entire point. Ginko will help with that!

Now, as a member of the ani-yun-wi-ya tribe, I state all of you are illegally in this country and should get the hell out! Papers, drivers license, visas, passports, all of you out. Pollocks, Wops, Spics, Jews, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Italians, Serbs, Croats, French, Spanish, Kurds, Muslims, Blacks, South Africans, Australians, Germans, Russians, Cubans, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Iraqis, Afghans, Iranians, Saudi's, and every single one of you european pirates get the hell out of our country and stay out!

  Damn, I thought we got rid of all of you Indians when we played cowboy :rifle:  :cowboy: and Indians.  I guess we missed a few.   :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :biggrin:

Quote from: LOsborne on June 15, 2010, 07:54:14 PM
What about the ELFs? As a rule, they have really good documentation.

You are not an ancestor of the Principle People you need to get out, and pack up now. You have 15 days before we begin taking scalps for our lodge-poles and women and children as our slave laborers. Any resistance will be met with an immediate death sentence which will be carried out on the spot of discovery.

You have raped our lands, killed our ancestors, oppressed our peoples, polluted our shores for far too long, and the Earth Mother has provided us with the legal means and authority to physically remove you from our lands via your own white mans laws.

You have been warned. Papers are meaningless. You might as well eat them.

Quote from: The Troll on June 15, 2010, 07:58:26 PM
  Damn, I thought we got rid of all of you Indians when we played cowboy :rifle:  :cowboy: and Indians.  I guess we missed a few.   :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :biggrin:

Exactly. In your white mans arrogance you take what is not yours to take and marched our ancestors to their death along the trail of tears. Retribution for your actions is at hand. Return to Europe or where ever the hell it is your ancestors came from, for this is not your true home by your own definition and laws.

Get out now.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 08:00:40 PM
You have been warned. Papers are meaningless. You might as well eat them.

Boy, you are just asking to get probed.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 08:00:40 PM
You are not an ancestor of the Principle People ...

Ummmm..... PH? Are you telling me you are an ancestor? That's a pretty good trick. I know you have a coupla three grandkids, but I always though ancestors had more gravitas (and maybe a tombstone.)

Quote from: LOsborne on June 15, 2010, 08:08:22 PM
Ummmm..... PH? Are you telling me you are an ancestor? That's a pretty good trick. I know you have a coupla three grandkids, but I always though ancestors had more gravitas (and maybe a tombstone.)

Do not attempt to trick me with your white man talk. We are beyond that now.

I count among my own ancestors an important Chief of the people Tsíyu-gûnsíní known also as Cheucunsene and Kunnese, and I have the proof from the great white father of the time.

Get out now!

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 08:14:20 PM
I count among my own ancestors ....

Big deal. My great-grandfather was the Grand Dragon of the Martin County Klan. There weren't any blacks in Martin County, so he had to persecute Catholics. My aunts, uncles, cousins and I made a special point to date Catholics, and marry them often, just to watch old G-squared whirl around in his grave. For a while we dabbled with the idea of hooking him up to a generator.

Quote from: LOsborne on June 15, 2010, 08:24:16 PM
Big deal. My great-grandfather was the Grand Dragon of the Martin County Klan. There weren't any blacks in Martin County, so he had to persecute Catholics. My aunts, uncles, cousins and I made a special point to date Catholics, and marry them often, just to watch old G-squared whirl around in his grave. For a while we dabbled with the idea of hooking him up to a generator.

You need to be among the first to get out then!

Okay, but what about those of us who are 4th generation removed from our native American Heritage?

I have a head dress made out of goose, chicken and guinea feathers...er...had rather :biggrin: I'm not much at planting, but I can track w/the best of them. ;D

Oh and Troll, the cowboys didn't stand a chance in my neighborhood. ;D

Those of you with stong native american ancestory..please don't take my joking as being disrespectful. I agree w/Pale's point. They should have been a little less trusting.

Technically, the Mexicans lost land to the "new" Americans too. :yes:

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 15, 2010, 09:05:15 PM
Okay, but what about those of us who are 4th generation removed from our native American Heritage?

I have a head dress made out of goose, chicken and guinea feathers...er...had rather :biggrin: I'm not much at planting, but I can track w/the best of them. ;D

Oh and Troll, the cowboys didn't stand a chance in my neighborhood. ;D

Those of you with stong native american ancestory..please don't take my joking as being disrespectful. I agree w/Pale's point. They should have been a little less trusting.

Trchnically, the Mexicans lost land to the "new" Americans too. :yes:

If Native Americans are amongst your ancestors and you can prove it, you can stay and take back the lands stolen from them. The rest of you have to get out.

The only true Americans are the Principle Peoples of this land, so if your immigration laws state only natural born Americans are true citizens, then all of you have to get out. We are the only natural born Americans.

Texas, Arizona, and any other lands formerly held by those you now call mexicans, go back to them, until our peoples return to our former numbers and strengths, at which point our former hostilities will resume as nature intended. But only after we successfully rid our lands of this scourge of Illegal immigrants ; our common enemy!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep.

We romanticize most of our history in light of the fact that the winners always write it, whether it is true to fact or not.

BTW, I am not an impartial observer in this discussion. I am prejudiced by my ancestry.

Just a caveat for the unknowing.

I doubt that I can prove it anymore, PH. The only proof that I woulda had would have been Mom's book. She inherited it from her eldest sister. I was her great grandchild and I don't have any idea where it went when she passed.

So true FTW. I had a similar thought a while ago, I was poking around some historical sights in the county and I discovered a battleground where a piece of the Mexican/American war had been fought. There was a huge stone in the center, describing the skirmish and listing all who had fallen that day. According to the plaque, the soldiers had been buried where they dropped. Either the Mexicans had a kick-ass day and none died or someone forgot to mention them. They were fighting for their land. Which is now, a part of San Diego Co. USA. I felt like they deserved an honorable mention.

There are some amongst you who already know my ancestry, and those that do not are finding something out. Believe it or not, it matters little to me either way. Truthfully I typically hold no assumptions of entitlement surrounding my lineage and ancestry, but when I see the kind of draconian perspectives being touted about this country as is happening now, I get angry over the history of this country, its treatment of its native peoples, and the arrogance of those who assume some kind of higher authority to perpetuate this nations sordid history by repeating that history; when in truth the only reason most of you are here now is because of that history of genocide and crimes against humanity.

Get over it? Yeah, I am well beyond such things now, but what is to stop the Native American Tribes of this nation, the True Americans, from laying legal claims similar to those you now propose to extend toward hispanic people? Birth in this country doesn't automatically make you a citizen? Then by that definition ALONE the majority of you reading this need to pack your stuff and book passage to another country.

The fate you decide for others becomes your own.

OOooooooohhhhh.

That'll leave a mark. :smile:

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 15, 2010, 09:16:08 PM
I doubt that I can prove it anymore, PH. The only proof that I woulda had would have been Mom's book. She inherited it from her eldest sister. I was her great grandchild and I don't have any idea where it went when she passed.

So true FTW. I had a similar thought a while ago, I was poking around some historical sights in the county and I discovered a battleground where a piece of the Mexican/American war had been fought. There was a huge stone in the center, describing the skirmish and listing all who had fallen that day. According to the plaque, the soldiers had been buried where they dropped. Either the Mexicans had a kick-ass day and none died or someone forgot to mention them. They were fighting for their land. Which is now, a part of San Diego Co. USA. I felt like they deserved an honorable mention.

If you know the tribe you are half way there. All you have to do is contact them and provide them with the names you know, dates, etc. They have all of the official records and each tribal council is empowered to validate your claim and required to officially introduce you to the US Government as a member of the tribe once your claim is verified by them.

It really is not as hard as one may think these days. A lot of the tribes have converted their manual files to electronic and a simple computer search is all that is required in some cases.

Most tribes did not have written records, or records of births. The verbal stories were how they kept track until the interlopers came to this land. The government kept strict records of each and every native American they encountered, and did frequent population counts, etc. ALL of these records were turned over to the tribal councils in each area, and that is the only recognized means of verification today.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 08:02:29 PM
Exactly. In your white mans arrogance you take what is not yours to take and marched our ancestors to their death along the trail of tears. Retribution for your actions is at hand. Return to Europe or where ever the hell it is your ancestors came from, for this is not your true home by your own definition and laws.

Get out now.

   That might be harder than you think.  There is more of us and we have more guns than you.  Plus with our Republicans and the why they think, your dead meat.  As the song goes, "I'll be watching you.   Chief :stirthepot:

Quote from: The Troll on June 15, 2010, 09:43:56 PM
   That might be harder than you think.  There is more of us and we have more guns than you.  Plus with our Republicans and the why they think, your dead meat.  As the song goes, "I'll be watching you.   Chief :stirthepot:

You keep pissing off those Mexicans and Canadians and you'll find out that you are not as powerful as you might think. . .We've got friends too. . . In fact, you are surrounded. The only way out is by boat or plane; or dead with your scalp adorning a lodgepole. . .

And your centuries of oppression of our peoples have forced a large percentage of them to seek work within the military, so all those guns are not necessarily in the right hands paleface. . .

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 09:47:34 PM
You keep pissing off those Mexicans and Canadians and you'll find out that you are not as powerful as you might think. . .We've got friends too. . .

  Canadians, did you say Canadians, why they couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack.  That were all of the draft dodgers went.  The same for the Mexicans.  It took 10 to 1 the beat the Texans at the Alamo.  :rifle: :rifle:  :cowboy:  :cowboy:  :ride: :ride: :ride:

Quote from: The Troll on June 15, 2010, 10:00:26 PM
 

  Canadians, did you say Canadians, why they couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack.  That were all of the draft dodgers went.  The same for the Mexicans.  It took 10 to 1 the beat the Texans at the Alamo.  :rifle: :rifle:  :cowboy:  :cowboy:  :ride: :ride: :ride:

Yeah, and you already know there are so many of them already here, and all this time they've had to reproduce? (Mexicans)

There were several tribes of the north that were indigenous to the Canadian areas back then, and friendly with those who resided in the northern tiers of what is now the US. Some went back, some fled to there, and many still reside there even today. AND they've also had a couple of centuries to reproduce and build relations with the Canadian interlopers.

You idiots are crowing at a false dawn. . . .

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 09:47:34 PM
You keep pissing off those Mexicans and Canadians and you'll find out that you are not as powerful as you might think. . .We've got friends too. . . In fact, you are surrounded. The only way out is by boat or plane; or dead with your scalp adorning a lodgepole. . .

And your centuries of oppression of our peoples have forced a large percentage of them to seek work within the military, so all those guns are not necessarily in the right hands paleface. . .

  Your tribe wasnt the one that had a midget warrior and all of his scalps had holes in them.  Hummmmmmmmmm. :sneaky:  :wink:

Quote from: The Troll on June 15, 2010, 10:08:07 PM
  Your tribe wasnt the one that had a midget warrior and all of his scalps had holes in them.  Hummmmmmmmmm. :sneaky:  :wink:

Your infantile penis jokes only validate the sense of false bravado you exhibit, and do nothing to bolster your position. You want to know what tribe I belong to? Look up the name I gave you and see if you can find it. It is out there if you know where to look.

My tribe fought against you in the revolutionary war, and we took many scalps. The English paid us for them.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 10:11:43 PM
Your infantile penis jokes only validate the sense of false bravado you exhibit, and do nothing to bolster your position. You want to know what tribe I belong to? Look up the name I gave you and see if you can find it. It is out there if you know where to look.

My tribe fought against you in the revolutionary war, and we took many scalps. The English paid us for them.

   Do I care what tribe you belong to, NO!  Will look it up, NO.  DO I care if your tribe fought against us, NO!

  I'll put up my woodsmanship and shooting ability against yours and I don't belong to any tribe.  I've been running and hunting in the woods since I was a kid.  Always was a good shot and the army taught me how to use the larger caliber rifles and pistols.

  All you're doing is beating a :deadhorse:  We're in the 21st century.  End of subject your not winning with me.  If you don't care what I think.  Your right.

Quote from: The Troll on June 15, 2010, 10:48:31 PM
 

   Do I care what tribe you belong to, NO!  Will look it up, NO.  DO I care if your tribe fought against us, NO!

  I'll put up my woodsmanship and shooting ability against yours and I don't belong to any tribe.  I've been running and hunting in the woods since I was a kid.  Always was a good shot and the army taught me how to use the larger caliber rifles and pistols.

  All you're doing is beating a :deadhorse:  We're in the 21st century.  End of subject your not winning with me.  If you don't care what I think.  Your right.

Oh don't get your panties in a wad! You can dish it out but you can't take it can you? Cripes.

And as usual the relevant and finer points of the argument go right over your head, but that's okay.

I'll let you assume what you will surrounding my marksmanship and abilities, as delusional as they may be. I'll just state that you're doing a fine job at waving Maggie's Drawers  though. . .

My points are valid none the less; and clearly this country never learns from its mistakes.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 06:26:41 PM
Bullshit. Only those here on visa's etc. are required to carry their paperwork.

Hell, you want to get technical? All of you get the hell out! My ancestors were here first!

I am very much aware of that and it is also true of my better half. 


Damn, I missed out on a bunch before I made this post.  I just got caught up with the rest of the conversation.   :spooked:

Quote from: me on June 16, 2010, 12:55:45 AM
I am very much aware of that and it is also true of my better half. 


Damn, I missed out on a bunch before I made this post.  I just got caught up with the rest of the conversation.   :spooked:

You are not, you have to go too.  :yes:

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 09:28:58 PM
The fate you decide for others becomes your own.

Man, you are GOOD!

That right there just about says it all!

Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2010, 10:59:19 PM
Oh don't get your panties in a wad! You can dish it out but you can't take it can you? Cripes.

And as usual the relevant and finer points of the argument go right over your head, but that's okay.

I'll let you assume what you will surrounding my marksmanship and abilities, as delusional as they may be. I'll just state that you're doing a fine job at waving Maggie's Drawers  though. . .

My points are valid none the less; and clearly this country never learns from its mistakes.

  What do you mean I can dish it out?  It seem at first all I stated is, get and keep out the illegal people that are invading this country.  I don't care what color or race.  Come in legally.

  My people were Amish and Mennonite.  My people weren't here when your people were working for King George and killing our first colonists.  If  you like that as part of  your history, an eagle feather in you bonnet, wear it proudly.  I worked with two Germen's who fought against us in WWII.  Fine men, they were fighting for their country.

  But here is one of your sentences that went "over my head" and I can't seen to under stand what it means. --- "I'll let you assume  you will surrounding my markmanship and abilities, as delusional as they maybe."----- Since I am not afraid of dying for the right reason.  In combat one on one my skills are just as good or better than  yours.  Just the straight facts.

   It's not that I'm waving Maggie's drawers, It just seem that your fuse was getting a little short.  It was better to end that subject before it became worse.  Especially when there is someone that agrees with me so much on "The Twins" and the Democratic Party and International Corporations screwing up our country and our Gulf.  Friends?  :yes:

The Troll :flag:  :salute:

   

you guys are making this WAY too complicating..............we have a law where is states you must go through proper porcedures to enter this country..........and there are those who are NOT doing so.  We need to find these folks and handle them accordingly.  It it THAT simple.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 16, 2010, 07:07:33 AM
You are not, you have to go too.  :yes:

But, but, but, couldn't I be grandfathered in since I've been here so long?   :bouquet:

You mean you're a male?

Quote from: followsthewolf on June 16, 2010, 09:09:35 AM
You mean you're a male?

grandmothered?... ;D ....ftw, you crack me up... ;D

Quote from: followsthewolf on June 16, 2010, 09:09:35 AM
You mean you're a male?

Er, uh, that was figuratively speaking...... :biggrin:

Quote from: The Troll on June 16, 2010, 08:25:57 AM


  What do you mean I can dish it out?  It seem at first all I stated is, get and keep out the illegal people that are invading this country.  I don't care what color or race.  Come in legally.

And I am saying if you want to take that approach that includes you. If a child born in this country is NOT a citizen then that includes most of the people presently alive in this country, except for Native Americans. The law didn't change since it was written.

Quote from: The Troll on June 16, 2010, 08:25:57 AM
  My people were Amish and Mennonite.  My people weren't here when your people were working for King George and killing our first colonists.  If  you like that as part of  your history, an eagle feather in you bonnet, wear it proudly.  I worked with two Germen's who fought against us in WWII.  Fine men, they were fighting for their country.

Great, then you guys can go back to Germany or where ever else it is you came from.

Clearly you've bought into the white mans perceptions of Native Americans, which is 180 degrees from the reality. Do you really think eagle feathers represent the killing of the white man or other human beings?

Quote from: The Troll on June 16, 2010, 08:25:57 AM
  But here is one of your sentences that went "over my head" and I can't seen to under stand what it means. --- "I'll let you assume  you will surrounding my markmanship and abilities, as delusional as they maybe."----- Since I am not afraid of dying for the right reason.  In combat one on one my skills are just as good or better than  yours.  Just the straight facts.

My statement points out the fact that you know nothing about me, and due to this you are making some assumptions. For all you know I could be a spec ops trained sniper, or something else. . . Making such assumptions is a key mistake made by those who would seek to inflict harm upon those they oppose.

Quote from: The Troll on June 16, 2010, 08:25:57 AM
   It's not that I'm waving Maggie's drawers, It just seem that your fuse was getting a little short.  It was better to end that subject before it became worse.  Especially when there is someone that agrees with me so much on "The Twins" and the Democratic Party and International Corporations screwing up our country and our Gulf.  Friends?  :yes:

The Troll :flag:  :salute:

It is not my fuse that is lit or short. You are the one who made a statement surrounding my tribe, and a veiled inquiry, and when I pointed you in the direction to find the answers if you really wanted them, you went nuclear. Not me.

Moreover, you are the one making derogatory statements surrounding Native Americans, and perpetuating the Hollywood propaganda surrounding them. That is akin to any other racial epitaph you might sling toward any person of color. Yet it isn't me who was offended, but you.

I never said we weren't friends, nor did I ever say we agree on everything. Just most things. This is not one of them.

Henry, that's the point. We have Federal laws in place for this issue which may need overhauled or perhaps just enforced. Arizona's law is threatening the constitutional rights of American citizens.

It's against the law to hire illegal aliens, but yet, people do it. Find out why they're not afraid to break that law and tighten it so that they are. Cut off the water and the stream goes dry.

Also, the need to take another look at the procedures to become a citizen. Are they clear?complicated? expensive?

What about work and education visas for those that want a better life, but don't want to give up citizenship to their own country. They exist, so why are people willing to risk getting caught rather than get one? Again, too complicated? expensive? Someone needs to find out.

One last thing. Do you know how people are treated who seek asylum here? I do, and I'd risk getting caught before I'd go through the process. That needs to be looked at.

Profiling is not the answer. Some of these people look like you and I. I don't carry my license everywhere. With a law like Arizona's could I be locked up or worse for suspicion?

Quote from: Olias on June 16, 2010, 08:14:50 AM
Man, you are GOOD!

That right there just about says it all!

:smile: Sad too isn't it?!

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 16, 2010, 10:19:25 AM
Henry, that's the point. We have Federal laws in place for this issue which may need overhauled or perhaps just enforced. Arizona's law is threatening the constitutional rights of American citizens.

It's against the law to hire illegal aliens, but yet, people do it. Find out why they're not afraid to break that law and tighten it so that they are. Cut off the water and the stream goes dry.

Also, the need to take another look at the procedures to become a citizen. Are they clear?complicated? expensive?

What about work and education visas for those that want a better life, but don't want to give up citizenship to their own country. They exist, so why are people willing to risk getting caught rather than get one? Again, too complicated? expensive? Someone needs to find out.

One last thing. Do you know how people are treated who seek asylum here? I do, and I'd risk getting caught before I'd go through the process. That needs to be looked at.

Profiling is not the answer. Some of these people look like you and I. I don't carry my license everywhere. With a law like Arizona's could I be locked up or worse for suspicion?

Sandy, I agree with everything you just said.....and the AZ law does NOTHING to violate that....you cannot profile.  It clearly says that.  It does say THAT IF a person is being questioned for suspesion of a crime, the authorities have the right to check with immigration to see if they are legal....and you are supposed to carry a license with you when you drive....if you don't you CAN go to jail.....so, if you are here with a green card, then carry it with you....it is really pretty simple.

as far as everything else you stated I agree with..the procedures to become a citizen...I think they need to be redone....have an area like ellis island was back a hundred years ago, a place to process immigrants, do a check on them, and a simplier process to become a citizen...work visa's are fine too IF that is what each state wants....I think we need to fine the crap out of companies who hire workers without proper documentation...

all of these need to be done, but ridding out those who are here NOW, Illegally, need to be removed.

Henry, you need to go back and read the link I posted.

Where would you go, except maybe swimming or next door without your id?

Everywhere, I rarely carry it unless I'm driving. Living in an area with lots of public transpotation, I rarely even drive. I do carry it if I'm planning to shop and I don't have cash. Otherwise I don't need it unless someome mistakes me for an illegal alien.

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 16, 2010, 11:18:09 AM
Otherwise I don't need it unless someome mistakes me for an illegal alien.

bingo!!

Bingo? Really? So, I don't have my ID on me and someone mistakes me for an illegal alien. I live here! This is my country, but I get roughed up and thrown in jail. How is that not a violation of my rights?

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 16, 2010, 11:53:50 AM
Bingo? Really? So, I don't have my ID on me and someone mistakes me foe an illegal alien. I live here! This is my country, but I get roughed up and thrown in jail. How is that not a violation of my rights?

NO, who says you are going to get roughed up? or thrown in jail?........you are just drinking kool ade that has been given to you by the liberal media......

No one says that I'm not. It could happen and a law like the one in Arizona be cited as the justification. It doesn't matter what I look like, any shape, size or race. If the officer of the law thinks I look the part the Arizona law gives him the right to detain me.

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 16, 2010, 12:01:25 PM
No one says that I'm not. It could happen and a law like the one in Arizona be cited as the justification. It doesn't matter what I look like, any shape, size or race. If the officer of the law thinks I look the part the Arizona law gives him the right to detain me.

so carry your license and you will never have a problem.....you seem to be able to carry it when you drive or go shopping, so now, since the people of AZ have claimed this becoming a problem with illegals...have decided to enforce an existing federal immigration law....so, that local authorities can now enforce these laws......remember they are not out to harass, that is not their job or intent....it is to clean up a problem that the citizens of AZ want cleaned up.

That's the point, I shouldn't have to carry my license and even less, I shouldn't be harassed for "looking a certain way".

The Arizona law is unconstitutional. Simple.

BTW, it's not an existing federal law. Stop drinking Koolaid and read the link and law.

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 16, 2010, 12:36:14 PM
That's the point, I shouldn't have to carry my license and even less, I shouldn't be harassed for "looking a certain way".

The Arizona law is unconstitutional. Simple.

the law is written without reference to any particular race or "suspect class" of individuals....unless opponents of the law had some evidence that the purpose of the law was to discriminate against Hispanics....there is nothing unconstitutional about it....

  I carry three forms of identification.  Driver licence, Medicare card and a Blue Cross card.  Since if fell a year an a half ago and looking all over for relief, I know you can't get any medical help without these three cards.

  Let's shut off the magnet.  Jobs, education free medical help and welfare.  If you don't have a card or some form of proper identification you can't get anything from the taxpayers.  Period.

  These illegal aliens got up here unaided and they can go home unaided.

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 16, 2010, 11:18:09 AM
Everywhere, I rarely carry it unless I'm driving. Living in an area with lots of public transpotation, I rarely even drive. I do carry it if I'm planning to shop and I don't have cash. Otherwise I don't need it unless someome mistakes me for an illegal alien.

It is a good idea to carry your ID with you at all times just in case.  If something happened, heaven forbid, how would anyone identify you if you aren't carrying some form of ID? 

I always have my cellphone and I hope someone would report me missing. :biggrin:

Henry, have you read the link yet? You don't seem anymore educated about the bill.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 16, 2010, 11:57:01 AM
NO, who says you are going to get roughed up? or thrown in jail?........you are just drinking kool ade that has been given to you by the liberal media......

Yeah, and that's why a young girl got punched by a cop for jaywalking too!  :rolleyes: (Seattle)

http://www.youtube.com/v/IjhnhXHs3Ts

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 16, 2010, 02:22:55 PM
I always have my cellphone and I hope someone would report me missing. :biggrin:

Henry, have you read the link yet? You don't seem anymore educated about the bill.

No, he's looking for some more propaganda and doesn't have time to educate himself. He gets all the education he thinks he needs from that propaganda and the talking heads who spew it!  :biggrin:

for your information, I read the bill itself...and it is a pretty easy read, and is quite clear on it's intent....

sandy it could be easily stated that it was propaganda that you gave...

why is it so difficult to accept that this is what the people of AZ want's and it is NOT unconstitutional...so, let them take care of their business....if you don't like it don't move to AZ.....

You could state it, but you'd be wrong. It's fact check, doofus. If you read the bill and you still believe what you're posting then the problem is reading comprehension.

. . .There are plenty of features of the law that critics find objectionable. Among them are the penalties. Under federal law, violations of immigration statutes by someone in the U.S. illegally may in some cases be punished with a jail sentence but are often penalized by deporting the individual instead, if the government proves its case to a judge through a comprehensive set of procedures. Arizona, lacking the authority to deport anyone, will enforce jail sentences laid out in its new law for, say, failing to carry one's immigration authorization documents or soliciting day work by the side of the road, said Mary Giovagnoli, director of the Immigration Policy Center, a pro-immigrants' rights group. While the federal system is far from perfect (thousands of people are locked up in federal detention centers indefinitely awaiting deportation decisions), the addition of new immigration crimes at the state level with jail time attached isn't the answer, she added.. . .

http://factcheck.org/2010/06/arizonas-papers-please-law/ (http://factcheck.org/2010/06/arizonas-papers-please-law/)

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 16, 2010, 02:34:25 PM
for your information, I read the bill itself...and it is a pretty easy read, and is quite clear on it's intent....

sandy it could be easily stated that it was propaganda that you gave...

why is it so difficult to accept that this is what the people of AZ want's and it is NOT unconstitutional...so, let them take care of their business....if you don't like it don't move to AZ.....

You didn't read shite Hank, you just took one of those talking heads twisted version of it and accepted it as the gospel according to you.

Now you know more than factcheck.org too!  :rolleyes:

YOU can say it is propaganda but you cannot prove it. (AND you are wrong).

Quote from: me on June 16, 2010, 01:56:08 PM
It is a good idea to carry your ID with you at all times just in case.  If something happened, heaven forbid, how would anyone identify you if you aren't carrying some form of ID?

Maybe by that trailer-trash tattoo you're wearin'?

:wink:

Quote from: Palehorse on June 16, 2010, 02:25:41 PM
Yeah, and that's why a young girl got punched by a cop for jaywalking too!  :rolleyes: (Seattle)

http://www.youtube.com/v/IjhnhXHs3Ts

I'd say she got punched for being combative.  Problem with that video is it doesn't really show it from the first to know whether she got combative first.  Did you not see her, the girl in red,  throw the first punch, well, it was a shove and she was prepared to punch?  No, he shouldn't have hit her but he was trying to keep from getting hit himself in case you didn't notice.  That whole thing stinks of set up IMO.

Quote from: me on June 16, 2010, 02:57:00 PM
I'd say she got punched for being combative.  Problem with that video is it doesn't really show it from the first to know whether she got combative first.  Did you not see her, the girl in red,  throw the first punch, well, it was a shove and she was prepared to punch?  No, he shouldn't have hit her but he was trying to keep from getting hit himself in case you didn't notice.  That whole thing stinks of set up IMO.

Jaywalking. . . the whole thing was over a jaywalking infraction. . .

Quote from: Palehorse on June 16, 2010, 02:41:48 PM
You didn't read shite Hank, you just took one of those talking heads twisted version of it and accepted it as the gospel according to you.

Now you know more than factcheck.org too!  :rolleyes:

YOU can say it is propaganda but you cannot prove it. (AND you are wrong).

first of all, don't tell me what i have done or haven't done.......I READ THE BILL.... a few times .... I know what I read, and it was pretty simple.......It is very clear about it's racial profiling status...I posted on here in great detail a few days ago....

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 16, 2010, 03:50:14 PM
first of all, don't tell me what i have done or haven't done.......I READ THE BILL.... a few times .... I know what I read, and it was pretty simple.......It is very clear about it's racial profiling status...I posted on here in great detail a few days ago....

So then it is comprehension you are finding a challenge?

Quote from: Palehorse on June 16, 2010, 04:10:19 PM
So then it is comprehension you are finding a challenge?

not at all..

So its just that you graduated from law school then and auto-magically know more than some of the best legal scholars in the country?

Quote from: me on June 16, 2010, 02:57:00 PM
I'd say she got punched for being combative.  Problem with that video is it doesn't really show it from the first to know whether she got combative first.  Did you not see her, the girl in red,  throw the first punch, well, it was a shove and she was prepared to punch?  No, he shouldn't have hit her but he was trying to keep from getting hit himself in case you didn't notice.  That whole thing stinks of set up IMO.

  As you know I hate these God Damn Bully Asshole Cops.  Just what did the asshole prove.  Hitting a young women with a closed fist as hard as he could, he could have broke her jaw.  He should have called for back up.  I seen a cop do the same thing in front of my house, but he did not hit her,  he had his fist doubled up and then seen me standing behind him and I said you better not do that, you need to call for back up.  He call the amublance, he threatened me with arrest if I didn't go in my house, I told him I wouldn't and let him beat her up.

The Son of Bitches think they can do anything in the name of the law and get by with it.  What is so damn bad they do.  They can kill you and walk away with less than a slap on the wrist.

  I have look all over the internet on how many people the cops kill every year.  Couldn't find a thing.  I'll bet it would be a suprising number. One web site said, "they didn't keep records on that", I'll bet they do.  We have let our Masters, our lawmakers give them to much power.

  I would just like to know how many people the S.W.A.T. teams kill every year.  Just last week an Indianapolis cop beat the shit out of a kid.  Said he slapped him with an open hand.  My ass, the damage that was done was with a closed fist.  I seen a close up picture of his face, cuts.  Even the Indianapolis chief said, that is was an unrestable offense.  The cops could have just walked away.  Not so for a bully cop.  YOU MUST SUBMIT TO MY POWER!

Quote from: The Troll on June 16, 2010, 04:16:33 PM
  As you know I hate these God Damn Bully Asshole Cops.  Just what did the asshole prove.  Hitting a young women with a closed fist as hard as he could, he could have broke her jaw.  He should have called for back up.  I seen a cop do the same thing in front of my house, but he did not hit her,  he had his fist doubled up and then seen me standing behind him and I said you better not do that, you need to call for back up.  He call the amublance, he threatened me with arrest if I didn't go in my house, I told him I wouldn't and let him beat her up.

The Son of Bitches think they can do anything in the name of the law and get by with it.  What is so damn bad they do.  They can kill you and walk away with less than a slap on the wrist.

  I have look all over the internet on how many people the cops kill every year.  Couldn't find a thing.  I'll bet it would be a suprising number. One web site said, "they didn't keep records on that", I'll bet they do.  We have let our Masters, our lawmakers give them to much power.

  I would just like to know how many people the S.W.A.T. teams kill every year.  Just last week an Indianapolis cop beat the shit out of a kid.  Said he slapped him with an open hand.  My ass, the damage that was done was with a closed fist.  I seen a close up picture of his face, cuts.  Even the Indianapolis chief said, that is was an unrestable offense.  The cops could have just walked away.  Not so for a bully cop.  YOU MUST SUBMIT TO MY POWER!

And therein lies the exact PROBLEM I have with this law of Arizona's! Yeah, it may say it is unacceptable to racially profile, but in the same breath it also says "reasonable suspicion" without defining it at all. The good ol boys club will run rough-shod over anyone they damned well please, just like that cop that punched that woman over a jaywalking violation!  :rant:

And before one of you hill-jacks starts in on me about not living in Arizona, INDIANA is trying to pass a clone of this very same law right here; as I said would happen if this bullshit was allowed to be implemented. So you can stow that shit.

you guys act as if ALL cops are like this prick in the video...........they are not.........I have nothing but vast respect for those who choose to serve and protect.........these guys by and large are excellent human beings....I have had the privelege to have known several, and I know there are always going to be bad apples in the cart...if there are bully cops,then there needs to be a BIG focus on eliminating these guys..

Palehorse, we will soon see if this law is unconstitutional or not, because it is going to end up in court....

that is why I think it is BS and propaganda, because it is not a difficult read as is most laws...have YOU read it?

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 16, 2010, 04:31:52 PM
you guys act as if ALL cops are like this prick in the video...........they are not.........I have nothing but vast respect for those who choose to serve and protect.........these guys by and large are excellent human beings....I have had the privelege to have known several, and I know there are always going to be bad apples in the cart...if there are bully cops,then there needs to be a BIG focus on eliminating these guys..

Palehorse, we will soon see if this law is unconstitutional or not, because it is going to end up in court....

that is why I think it is BS and propaganda, because it is not a difficult read as is most laws...have YOU read it?

All cops are not like Lincoln Brooks, that jackass in Seattle, or the cops who beat that kid up in Indy; but the reality is there are more of them than most people realize and incidents like these validate the concerns of people who actually give a damned about humanity and demonstrate that the law WILL be abused and used to oppress the average citizens right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I have a TON of family in law enforcement (local, state, and federal) and they feel exactly the same way. Troll's point surrounding accurate statistics on police use of deadly force not being available is not only right, but dead on according to the DOJ who is charged with compiling said statistics. By their own estimation, only 1 out of every 4 police action killings are reported to them.

Of course I have read it. That you even ask that question clearly shows you either do not read what I post or that you have a comprehension problem.

The only reason you think these concerns are propaganda is because you want to use it as a club to beat the POTUS with.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 16, 2010, 04:12:12 PM
not at all..

Okay, then since it's "so easy to read", what did you think of this part:

QuoteSenate Bill 1070: A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.

So, since this question can only be answered by the Arizona Constitution. What did it say about allowing racial profiling?

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 16, 2010, 04:31:52 PM
you guys act as if ALL cops are like this prick in the video...........they are not.........I have nothing but vast respect for those who choose to serve and protect.........these guys by and large are excellent human beings....I have had the privelege to have known several, and I know there are always going to be bad apples in the cart...if there are bully cops,then there needs to be a BIG focus on eliminating these guys..

Palehorse, we will soon see if this law is unconstitutional or not, because it is going to end up in court....

that is why I think it is BS and propaganda, because it is not a difficult read as is most laws...have YOU read it?

  I would almost agree with you on, not all cops are assholes.  But the good ones cover up and hide what the bad one's do and will not step in and stop the cop that is beating up someone.

  In my mind that make them as bad as the bully asshole ones.  THE BLUE CODE.

I understand why the Arizona law was passed. State and local police have no authority to enforce immigration law. Arizona is attempting to give them that authority.  I sympathize. Here in the Devil's Playground (and throughout southwestern Indiana,) we have a large population of illegals. The turkey processors bus them in (I believe Perdue favors Guatemala for their recruiting ground, I haven't heard of the preference of Swift and Tyson) give them training in how to hit the emergency room using a separate fake name for that purpose only, how to apply for Family and Children's services (food stamps and a Medicaid card,) how to max out their dependents on withholding forms so no taxes will be withheld from their paychecks, explain that they will receive no benefits, and a workers comp claim will earn them a quit trip home. Everyone knows it. People turn them in all the time -- hell! I turn them in all the time. The local law has no authority to do anything. ICE comes in, asks the plant manager who he can spare, rounds up half a dozen and ships them home. They are back before the next pay cycle.

Now, regarding profiling. You guys ... we are dealing with cops here! They profile all the time. When I got my first drivers license mama gave me the speech about how I should drive to a well-lighted place with lots of people around before stopping if a cop ever tries to pull me over after dark. A woman I know tells of driving to a cop shop once when that happened, and being forced to blow the entire night shift to avoid a drunk and disorderly with resisting arrest. These days kids are told to respond to cops with their cell phones active and the video recording -- and make it obvious. That's why we have all these videos of asshole cops.

The answer to illegal immigration is to SHUT DOWN those who employ them. The answer to asshole cops is revolution.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 16, 2010, 04:43:27 PM
All cops are not like Lincoln Brooks, that jackass in Seattle, or the cops who beat that kid up in Indy...

Yeah, they are. The E'ville cops got tasers a few months ago, and they love them. Every week --sometimes almost daily -- we get stories in the paper of some kid who was "resisting" who is now in IC because they tased him over and over. The graduation parties were especially fun. Now if you won't blow the pig who stopped you for not signaling a turn at three in the morning (whether you did or not) he can tase you until you have to be scraped off the pavement, and then charge you with resisting. I hate cops.

Quote. . .The answer to illegal immigration is to SHUT DOWN those who employ them.. . .

I would not disagree with this course of action. States have absolutely NO authority to deport. They can only put them in jail and notify the feds. The feds have to deport. States enacting such laws, IF deemed constitutional / legal. will soon find their correctional facilities burgeoning with inmates; above and beyond what they are now.

Quote from: LOsborne on June 16, 2010, 06:45:53 PM
Yeah, they are. The E'ville cops got tasers a few months ago, and they love them. Every week --sometimes almost daily -- we get stories in the paper of some kid who was "resisting" who is now in IC because they tased him over and over. The graduation parties were especially fun. Now if you won't blow the pig who stopped you for not signaling a turn at three in the morning (whether you did or not) he can tase you until you have to be scraped off the pavement, and then charge you with resisting. I hate cops.

You are preaching to the choir here sistah! I know how they are.

Something has to be done but enacting draconian laws at the state level does nothing but arm these apes with a "reason" to screw with whomever they choose. (As if they need one). . .

  It is a really simple system, we have a tirad in the Judaical system.  At the top is the judge, a guy who couldn't make as a lawyer.  In the middle we have the lawyers who worship the judge and all of the money he can bring to them. Then we have the cops.  Their the ones who brings the judge and the lawyers people so they can feed off our bodies.

  Now If you are a judge or a lawyer are you going to punish the cops for anything they can get out of.  No, if they loose them who going to bring the carcass in to feed on.

Troll, what do you think of the following remarks;

"You work hard, and you have the right to be paid fairly. I'm U.S. Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis, and it is a serious problem when workers in this country are not being paid every cent that they earn. Remember, every worker in America has a right to be paid fairly, whether documented or not. So, call us -- it is free and confidential -- at 1-866-487-9243. We can help."

do you agree?

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 29, 2010, 08:51:14 AM
Troll, what do you think of the following remarks;

"You work hard, and you have the right to be paid fairly. I'm U.S. Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis, and it is a serious problem when workers in this country are not being paid every cent that they earn. Remember, every worker in America has a right to be paid fairly, whether documented or not. So, call us -- it is free and confidential -- at 1-866-487-9243. We can help."

do you agree?

  I agree 100%,  I think all people living in the United States of American should get the minumum wage.  Legal or illegal.  These people who hire illegal aliens should not be able to hire these people under the table at starvation wages and lower everybodies wages.  If we can't get the bastards that hire these illegals one way, we should get them another way.  Put the asshole in jail and take a whole lot of money from them and their businesses.  It sure would put a stop to it.

Quote from: The Troll on June 29, 2010, 10:00:23 AM
  I agree 100%,  I think all people living in the United States of American should get the minumum wage.  Legal or illegal.  These people who hire illegal aliens should not be able to hire these people under the table at starvation wages and lower everybodies wages.  If we can't get the bastards that hire these illegals one way, we should get them another way.  Put the asshole in jail and take a whole lot of money from them and their businesses.  It sure would put a stop to it.

In my opinion is should have read....every American citizens, or if you have proper work visa's, you have a right to be paid fairly.......and if you are here, Illegally, then you should NOT be working here collecting ANYTHING....THAT is the way it should have been read.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 29, 2010, 10:30:28 AM
In my opinion is should have read....every American citizens, or if you have proper work visa's, you have a right to be paid fairly.......and if you are here, Illegally, then you should NOT be working here collecting ANYTHING....THAT is the way it should have been read.

  Words and words.  Make sweet and simple.  Anybody not paying the legal wage and is turned in and the person who turns them in, get a reward, that would sure put a stop to law breaker, hiring illegal workers and under paying anyone.  Jailing these people sure would help too.

Quote from: The Troll on June 29, 2010, 10:37:21 AM
 

  Words and words.  Make sweet and simple.  Anybody not paying the legal wage and is turned in and the person who turns them in, get a reward, that would sure put a stop to law breaker, hiring illegal workers and under paying anyone.  Jailing these people sure would help too.

Don't get me wrong here, I agree that those hiring illegals should be fined an enormous amount and/or jail time...this problem can be fixed, but it is going to take some bi-partisan agreements.....

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 29, 2010, 10:51:58 AM
Don't get me wrong here, I agree that those hiring illegals should be fined an enormous amount and/or jail time...this problem can be fixed, but it is going to take some bi-partisan agreements.....

  Your damn right Brother Henry.  Amen!

I'm all for punishing anyone who knowingly hires undocumented workers, but shouldn't the workers also be punished for being here illegally? Guy here in town hires a lot of people for cleanup, etc., runs their papers, fires them when it comes back undocumented. He says he has been told by the workers, I'll get new papers. (He doesn't rehire them) Now the government supposedly knows that there is someone using bad paperwork but INS never shows up and the guy is threatened with fines. There has to a better way to make this work.

Quote from: Anne on June 29, 2010, 12:27:23 PM
I'm all for punishing anyone who knowingly hires undocumented workers, but shouldn't the workers also be punished for being here illegally? Guy here in town hires a lot of people for cleanup, etc., runs their papers, fires them when it comes back undocumented. He says he has been told by the workers, I'll get new papers. (He doesn't rehire them) Now the government supposedly knows that there is someone using bad paperwork but INS never shows up and the guy is threatened with fines. There has to a better way to make this work.

There certainly does have to be a better way and Arizona is doing it.  The way it is now the employer gets fined and the illegal gets off scott free and that just isn't right.

Quote from: me on June 29, 2010, 01:35:49 PM
There certainly does have to be a better way and Arizona is doing it.  The way it is now the employer gets fined and the illegal gets off scott free and that just isn't right.

  Your pretty smart about reseaching, but I have never heard of anyone being charge or fined for hiring an illegal.  Have you heard or seen anything on it.  If there has been, I would think the news channels would have gone crazy.

  Also how do we tell the Zone team that spell check isn't working.

Quote from: The Troll on June 29, 2010, 03:05:29 PM
  Your pretty smart about reseaching, but I have never heard of anyone being charge or fined for hiring an illegal.  Have you heard or seen anything on it.  If there has been, I would think the news channels would have gone crazy.

  Also how do we tell the Zone team that spell check isn't working.

email admin.

Quote from: The Troll on June 29, 2010, 03:05:29 PM
  Your pretty smart about reseaching, but I have never heard of anyone being charge or fined for hiring an illegal.  Have you heard or seen anything on it.  If there has been, I would think the news channels would have gone crazy.

  Also how do we tell the Zone team that spell check isn't working.

That seems to be the way they are setting things up though. 

Quote from: me on June 29, 2010, 04:59:06 PM
That seems to be the way they are setting things up though.

  I'll believe it only when I see or hear it.  These news channel will go nuts if and when it happens.  I sure would like to see a "Perp" walk of some big manager or CEO of a big contractor company, beef processing and chicken processing plant, take the walk.

Quote from: Anne on June 29, 2010, 12:27:23 PM
I'm all for punishing anyone who knowingly hires undocumented workers...

Well, that's the problem, ya see. The meat-packing giants claim they can't tell good documents from bad ones.

Aside: this is a blatant lie. I do it all the time. It costs about $18.00 a pop -- and includes a 50-state criminal background -- and I get turnaround in two hours max. When I turn up phony or stolen docs, I immediately call ICE. They promise to "look into it." So far, no one has ever followed up.

To address this terrible problem of identifying fake or stolen docs, the government authorized a program called E-verify, and tried to make everybody use it. It's expensive, of course. But worse than that, it's inaccurate. It not only passes illegals as citizens, it flags citizens as illegals. All it does it match the name, soc sec or resident alien number, and birthdate entered on the I-9. Anybody can be careful enough to write a correct name and birthday to match the number he stole. Sheesh!  It is such a mess the government has dropped all plans to mandate its use.

Now explain this to me. I have been backgrounding everyone to whom we consider making an offer for many years. I do it quickly, cheaply and accurately. I use software that has been around for decades (although it does get updated.) So why the brouhaha about E-verify?  'Cause somebody is getting a kick-back, that's why.

If it were up to me, all those meat-packer HR departments who claim they can't tell real docs from fake or stolen ones should be fired -- because they are too stupid to do the job. 'Course then they would draw disability because they are mentally handicapped. AAARRRGGGGGGHHHH!

I have to agree with you on this one.  Heck if nothing else false documents will have a fake or stolen SS# and that should tip anyone off that something is rotten in Denmark.  I had one woman tell me they issued her a dead womans SS# and it was really hers but they didn't change the name that it was issued with they just gave it to her.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: LOsborne on June 29, 2010, 06:54:39 PM
Well, that's the problem, ya see. The meat-packing giants claim they can't tell good documents from bad ones.

Aside: this is a blatant lie. I do it all the time. It costs about $18.00 a pop -- and includes a 50-state criminal background -- and I get turnaround in two hours max. When I turn up phony or stolen docs, I immediately call ICE. They promise to "look into it." So far, no one has ever followed up.

To address this terrible problem of identifying fake or stolen docs, the government authorized a program called E-verify, and tried to make everybody use it. It's expensive, of course. But worse than that, it's inaccurate. It not only passes illegals as citizens, it flags citizens as illegals. All it does it match the name, soc sec or resident alien number, and birthdate entered on the I-9. Anybody can be careful enough to write a correct name and birthday to match the number he stole. Sheesh!  It is such a mess the government has dropped all plans to mandate its use.

Now explain this to me. I have been backgrounding everyone to whom we consider making an offer for many years. I do it quickly, cheaply and accurately. I use software that has been around for decades (although it does get updated.) So why the brouhaha about E-verify?  'Cause somebody is getting a kick-back, that's why.

If it were up to me, all those meat-packer HR departments who claim they can't tell real docs from fake or stolen ones should be fired -- because they are too stupid to do the job. 'Course then they would draw disability because they are mentally handicapped. AAARRRGGGGGGHHHH!

Quote from: LOsborne on June 29, 2010, 06:54:39 PM

To address this terrible problem of identifying fake or stolen docs, the government authorized a program called E-verify, and tried to make everybody use it.  ......

It is such a mess the government has dropped all plans to mandate its use.

I guess the folks at GSA didn't hear that. Our company holds a GSA contract and I received this yesterday ....

"Attention MAS vendors!

This mandatory mass modification will baseline all FSS contracts to include the most recent standard contract clauses, capture exceptions, and incorporate E-Verify into all FSS contracts.


Contracts Online will achieve greater transparency and streamline the acquisition lifecycle for contracting professionals and industry partners. The objective of Contracts Online is to capture contract Terms  and Conditions, keep them current across each Schedule, and display information electronically for customers to consider when establishing Blanket Purchase Agreements (BPAs) or placing task and delivery orders against Schedule contracts.

Employment Eligibility Verification (E-Verify) implements Executive Order 12989 and subsequent Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR) rule, to require federal contractors to electronically verify the employment eligibility of employees working on federal contracts in the United States. Accordingly, this modification incorporates clause 52.222-54, Employment Eligibility Verification (JAN 2009), into all Federal Supply Schedule (FSS) contracts unless certain exceptions apply."

.........................
(my emphasis added)

Quote from: Olias on June 30, 2010, 09:05:29 AMI guess the folks at GSA didn't hear that. Our company holds a GSA contract and I received this yesterday .... "Attention MAS vendors! This mandatory mass modification will baseline all FSS contracts to include the most recent standard contract clauses, capture exceptions, and incorporate E-Verify into all FSS contracts. Contracts Online will achieve greater transparency and streamline the acquisition lifecycle for contracting professionals and industry partners. The objective of Contracts Online is to capture contract Terms and Conditions, keep them current across each Schedule, and display information electronically for customers to consider when establishing Blanket Purchase Agreements (BPAs) or placing task and delivery orders against Schedule contracts. Employment Eligibility Verification (E-Verify) implements Executive Order 12989 and subsequent Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR) rule, to require federal contractors to electronically verify the employment eligibility of employees working on federal contracts in the United States. Accordingly, this modification incorporates clause 52.222-54, Employment Eligibility Verification (JAN 2009), into all Federal Supply Schedule (FSS) contracts unless certain exceptions apply." ......................... (my emphasis added)

  It just boils down to one thing, money.  No matter how much the Republicans cry wolf :wolf:  Wolf  :wolf: they want their businesses and their friend to be able to hire this cheap labor and drive down the wages of the American worker.  So they, the rich can make more money.

Quote from: The Troll on June 30, 2010, 01:13:55 PM
So they, the rich can make more money.

I don't know about YOU, but I have no problem with rich people, nor do I care if they try to make MORE money...Rich people are the backbone of this country.....it is the rich people that hire us poor folks so we can raise families and go on vactions and live a comfortable life....this is NEVER going to change.....I DO fear a government who want's to redistribute the wealth.....that is the basis for a socialistic nation....and we KNOW how those countries have faired....I know there has to be a fine line between the Big Gov and the Big Business....

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 30, 2010, 01:24:43 PMI don't know about YOU, but I have no problem with rich people, nor do I care if they try to make MORE money...Rich people are the backbone of this country.....it is the rich people that hire us poor folks so we can raise families and go on vactions and live a comfortable life....this is NEVER going to change.....I DO fear a government who want's to redistribute the wealth.....that is the basis for a socialistic nation....and we KNOW how those countries have faired....I know there has to be a fine line between the Big Gov and the Big Business....

  Well, we all know that the rich doesn't want to redistribution the wealth.  And if you think the rich give a damn about you taking nice vacations and living a comfortable living,  your out of you freeking mind.

  The only thing they want out of you is work and at the lowest rate.  Why are they sending jobs out of this country for.  CHEAP ASS LABOR.  CHILDREN AND SLAVES ARE FINE.  Your nothing but a number.  I bet you, I can find out more about you, every thing, using you Social Security number than using you name.  Want to bet.

  I want you to get out of your mind, that the rich is the backbone of American life.  Total bull shit.  The middle class is the back bone of any country.  Take out the middle class and all you have is the rich and the poor slaves.  Any time and every time.  If you take all the Snow Birds and the vacationers out of Flordia and you would have is, another Mexico.

  Just where in hell did you get this brain washed.  Your talking out of your ass and brain.

  I have thought about you many times and I sure can't wrap my mind around you.  Coming from a pretty well off, BLUE COLLAR family and you have all of this ROYAL BULLSHIT, whorship the Royal Rich in your mind.   Just like in old England.  Long live the King.   :no: :no: :no:

  Oh, one more thing.  I bet if your company could find another person who was as good as you, going the same thing for your company for $50 to $75 a week less than you.  Sweetheart :sweetheart:  your working there would be histroy.  Gone, Gone, Gone.  There is no loyality or friendship, not in this day and age. :yes: :yes: :yes:

  Quote Henry Hawk:  I DO fear a government who want's to redistribute the wealth.....that is the basis for a socialistic nation....and we KNOW how those countries have faired. [/quote]

  I don't see Canadians leaving for here.  I don't see the English leaving for here.  I don't see the French leaving for here, the Sweden, Norway, Ice Land, Italy, Germany, Russians and many others, all I see is the poor nations, especially Mexico want to come here.  In Mexico we have true Predatory Capitalism.  The Rich and Corporations own 95% of the money.  Another lame brain statement from the Hawk.  :flap:  :flap:  :flap:  :wacko:

Quote from: The Troll on June 30, 2010, 08:56:54 PM
  Quote Henry Hawk:  I DO fear a government who want's to redistribute the wealth.....that is the basis for a socialistic nation....and we KNOW how those countries have faired.

  I don't see Canadians leaving for here.  I don't see the English leaving for here.  I don't see the French leaving for here, the Sweden, Norway, Ice Land, Italy, Germany, Russians and many others, all I see is the poor nations, especially Mexico want to come here.  In Mexico we have true Predatory Capitalism.  The Rich and Corporations own 95% of the money.  Another lame brain statement from the Hawk.  :flap:  :flap:  :flap:  :wacko:

It's not quite as easy for those in countries where you just can't walk across the border to get here.  Russia isn't all that prosperous.  What you see on TV and the reality of things there are two different things.  The only people who are rich in Russia are those the government chose to be rich the rest are just barely making a living.

Quote from: me on June 30, 2010, 09:02:27 PMThe only people who are rich in Russia are those the government chose to be rich the rest are just barely making a living.

  Well I'll be damned, that what the Republican Party and Newt Gingrich want's for America.  Corporate welfare.   :yes: :yes: :yes:

Quote from: The Troll on June 30, 2010, 11:09:08 PM
 

  Well I'll be damned, that what the Republican Party and Newt Gingrich want's for America.  Corporate welfare.   :yes: :yes: :yes:

Russia is government ran, everyone works for the government.

  It was the communist through The Communism Party that ran it for themselves.  If you were not a communist party member you didn't get crap.  You couldn't shop in comunist state store.  Just like here the rich trying to run the country for themselves.  :yes:

  Right now we have the Republican Party run by the Super Rich with their corporations and control of 87% of the money trying to run the show here.  If we don't watch it,  you will have to belong to the Republican Party and have a 666 on your forhead to get just a starvation spoon full of food for your stavation working wage.

  If we were living under the Republican Party in the Star Trek age.  They would telleport all the old people without money and the poor people who arn't smart enough, into space.   I can see them lining them up and saying, "Beam them out, Scotty".  "Thank you Sara, Mr. Rand, Mr. Boner and Grand Master Newt.  Get away from the Controls Geoge W., you might beam all of out.   :yes:

  Oh, I might add the Communist that we fought so long in the Cold War.  Is now loaning us money, destroying our manufacturing, spying on us, hacking in to our secret goverment a company  computers, building space rockets and a huge army, is the Communist Chinese.

  SHOP WALMART!

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 06:04:23 AM
Russia is government ran, everyone works for the government.

Not any more.

Seventy percent of economic activity now takes place in legally independent private corporations, and price controls on most goods have been abolished....
.... In the 1990s Russia gave birth to several dozen successful and internationally prominent business corporations. In 15 years Russia went from a society where entrepreneurship was a crime, to one which had produced 36 individual dollar billionaires by 2004, the third highest number in the world.

http://prutland.web.wesleyan.edu/Documents/Wegren%20chapter.pdf

Unless, of course, you want to claim this one of those historical documents that has been "changed."

Quote from: LOsborne on July 01, 2010, 08:25:04 AM
Not any more.

Seventy percent of economic activity now takes place in legally independent private corporations, and price controls on most goods have been abolished....
.... In the 1990s Russia gave birth to several dozen successful and internationally prominent business corporations. In 15 years Russia went from a society where entrepreneurship was a crime, to one which had produced 36 individual dollar billionaires by 2004, the third highest number in the world.

http://prutland.web.wesleyan.edu/Documents/Wegren%20chapter.pdf (http://prutland.web.wesleyan.edu/Documents/Wegren%20chapter.pdf)

Unless, of course, you want to claim this one of those historical documents that has been "changed."

and we are turning into a country where....a society where entrepreneurship was IS a crime..... :no:

we need to take a page from history from these other countries who have already been down that road of socialism....and they are ALL turning away from it, and slowly becoming back to more of a true democracy....

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 01, 2010, 08:30:40 AMand we are turning into a country where....a society where entrepreneurship was IS a crime..... :no: we need to take a page from history from these other countries who have already been down that road of socialism....and they are ALL turning away from it, and slowly becoming back to more of a true democracy....

  Why is it, when I think Henry "Hawk", I think Baby Robin.

Quote from: The Troll on July 01, 2010, 08:42:03 AM
  Why is it, when I think Henry "Hawk", I think Baby Robin.

You know how it is when I know that I struck a chord with you Troll, when I know that you don't have a good answer to my post?....you always make a funny comment and not answer my question or totally ignore my post and say something witty... ;D

Troll, I will say this, that even though you and I will NEVER agree on many, many issues.....you DO make me laugh, and you bring something new to this forum, with your style of discussion.... :yes: ;D

Hum, I noticed one of the things done was to cut taxes.   I guess the woman I know who visited her sister who lives there last year is full of crap then about conditions in the real Russia that isn't seen by the rest of the world.  I know, that isn't documentation by the powers that be so it can't be accepted as being true.

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 11:30:25 AMHum, I noticed one of the things done was to cut taxes. I guess the woman I know who visited her sister who lives there last year is full of crap then about conditions in the real Russia that isn't seen by the rest of the world. I know, that isn't documentation by the powers that be so it can't be accepted as being true.

  Cut the stupid crap, let's face it there in no place quite like America.  But we are  not first in everything.  Health, standard of living, medical care and many other things. Would you please stop all of the stupid crap.  :groan:

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 01, 2010, 08:30:40 AM

and we are turning into a country where....a society where entrepreneurship was IS a crime..... :no:

we need to take a page from history from these other countries who have already been down that road of socialism....and they are ALL turning away from it, and slowly becoming back to more of a true democracy....

Trouble is, some people think they're being entrepreneurs, when they are actually thieves. (Old school -- Fisk, Gould, Rockefeller; New school -- Gates)

And that's why we need government intervention.

Quote from: followsthewolf on July 01, 2010, 01:25:04 PM
Trouble is, some people think they're being entrepreneurs, when they are actually thieves. (Old school -- Fisk, Gould, Rockefeller; New school -- Gates)

And that's why we need government intervention.

but the vast majority of the entrepreneurs is being punished, and then we ALL pay the price.....I am not against a reasonable amount of regulations against the BIG business....we got to not take out the small business in the process...

How are they being punished?

Quote from: followsthewolf on July 01, 2010, 02:01:01 PM
How are they being punished?

the WILL see a tax increase.....with a struggling economy....that is like pour salt on a wound.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 01, 2010, 03:06:17 PMthe WILL see a tax increase.....with a struggling economy....that is like pour salt on a wound.

  Counting your Hawk eggs before their hatched.  There has to be a tax raise.  But I bet the little man and woman and small business won't suffer like the poor, poor, wooo is me, :'( crying super rich who has recieved all of George W. tax cuts. :'( :'( :'( :'( :biggrin:

  The Troll, salt can clean out an infected wound, if you're poor and can't affford medical care.  :tiphat:  :biggrin:

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 11:30:25 AM
Hum, I noticed one of the things done was to cut taxes. ...

Damn. I just read the whole 19 page document again and didn't find anything about tax cuts. Point it out to me, me.

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 11:30:25 AM

I guess the woman I know who visited her sister who lives there last year is full of crap then about conditions in the real Russia that isn't seen by the rest of the world. 

Is the sister-in-law of the cousin of your chiropractor's next door neighbor a business owner? If not, how would she know?

Quote from: LOsborne on July 01, 2010, 07:39:29 PM
Is the sister-in-law of the cousin of your chiropractor's next door neighbor a business owner? If not, how would she know?

Go ahead and make fun of it if you like 'cause I know you'd rather take "documentation" by a magazine or newspaper as proof but sometimes that what you refer to as anecdotal evidence is actual proof and should be believed above all.  It is someone I know who went there to visit her sister who lives there.  She spent two weeks there and was not in areas visited by tourists, reporters, and media.  If you prefer to believe the reports they want us to see go for it.   

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 07:51:37 PMbut sometimes that what you refer to as anecdotal evidence is actual proof and should be believed above all.

Yeah, because people are always a reliable source. Whoever said that hearsay shouldn't be admissible in court was an idiot! and why do we have SO many criminals on the streets when there are SO many quality eye-witness reports? and what's so hard to believe about every body of water on earth being full of fish over 6 feet long?

Documentation indeed! Who needs standards?!? Some people are JUST amazing.

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 07:51:37 PM
Go ahead and make fun of it if you like ...

What? NO response to my request for the paragraph in my source that supports your allegation that Russians cut taxes to encourage private ownership of businesses?

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 01, 2010, 08:40:24 PM
Yeah, because people are always a reliable source.

Documentation indeed! Who needs standards?!? Some people are JUST amazing.

Whaddya think, Sandy? Would me be a valuable recruit to the Paranoid People of (Whatever) County? I'll present her name at the next clandestine meeting. But she's gonna have to show real skill to get a bid to join my Rapid Margarita Mixing Team.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 01, 2010, 08:48:12 PM
Whaddya think, Sandy? Would me be a valuable recruit to the Paranoid People of (Whatever) County? I'll present her name at the next clandestine meeting. But she's gonna have to show real skill to get a bid to join my Rapid Margarita Mixing Team.

I think it sounds like a match made in he...er...somewhere.

Soooo, what qualifications does one need to be a member of the rapid Margarita drinking team? :biggrin:

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 01, 2010, 08:57:14 PM

Soooo, what qualifications does one need to be a member of the rapid Margarita drinking team? :biggrin:

Well, duh... you have to be able to mix Margaritas very quickly. Impress me and I'll tell you the secret ingredient.

Ooops. I didn't read the fine print. You asked about drinking, not mixing.

Rapid margarita drinkers? Sounds unamerican. Mine must be sipped. I don't care how fast you sip.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 01, 2010, 08:59:48 PM
Ooops. I didn't read the fine print. You asked about drinking, not mixing.

Rapid margarita drinkers? Sounds unamerican. Mine must be sipped. I don't care how fast you sip.

Bartending was a great way to suppliment my income for about 8 years starting in college so I'm a fairly fast mixer, buuuut I prefer drinking sipping. ;D

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 01, 2010, 08:40:24 PMYeah, because people are always a reliable source. Whoever said that hearsay shouldn't be admissible in court was an idiot! and why do we have SO many criminals on the streets when there are SO many quality eye-witness reports? and what's so hard to believe about every body of water on earth being full of fish over 6 feet long? Documentation indeed! Who needs standards?!? Some people are JUST amazing.

  Sandy, I disagree with you on this one.  Hearsay.  Eye witness is one of the most unreliable form of  evidence there is.  Over 17 people were taken off of death row, because of eye witnesses and heresay was wrong.  17 people taken off of death row.  Study after study has shown the eye witnesses are wrong over 50% or more all of the time.  That my story and it's true.  Check it out.  The state that released all of the people 17, off of death row was Illinois.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 01, 2010, 08:58:25 PM

Well, duh... you have to be able to mix Margaritas very quickly. Impress me and I'll tell you the secret ingredient.

  I might mix you a Margaritas, but if I tell  you my secret ingredient, I'd have to kill  you.  :yes: :yes: :biggrin:

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 01, 2010, 08:40:24 PM
Yeah, because people are always a reliable source. Whoever said that hearsay shouldn't be admissible in court was an idiot! and why do we have SO many criminals on the streets when there are SO many quality eye-witness reports? and what's so hard to believe about every body of water on earth being full of fish over 6 feet long?

Documentation indeed! Who needs standards?!? Some people are JUST amazing.

It would be hearsay if it were from someone who hadn't been there but she was there and seen it with her won eyes.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 01, 2010, 08:45:37 PM
What? NO response to my request for the paragraph in my source that supports your allegation that Russians cut taxes to encourage private ownership of businesses?

It's down toward the end.  I'll look for it tomorrow. 

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 10:58:03 PM
It would be hearsay if it were from someone who hadn't been there but she was there and seen it with her won eyes.

It's a bird! No! It's a plane! No! It's the point going right over me's head! (http://theunknownzone.us/smf/Smileys3/default/superman.gif)

BTW, the definition of hearsay is "•Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience. When submitted as evidence, such statements are called hearsay evidence. ..."

She didn't relay the experience to us, you did. Besides being unreliable because people exaggerate, it's also hearsay. :wink:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1R2TSNA_en&defl=en&q=define:hearsay&sa=X&ei=zVctTMvPJcSBlAfz36mzBA&ved=0CBIQkAE

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 01, 2010, 11:09:32 PM
It's a bird! No! It's a plane! No! It's the point going right over me's head! (http://theunknownzone.us/smf/Smileys3/default/superman.gif)

BTW, the definition of hearsay is "•Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience. When submitted as evidence, such statements are called hearsay evidence. ..."

She didn't relay the experience to us, you did. Besides being unreliable because people exaggerate, it's also hearsay. :wink:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1R2TSNA_en&defl=en&q=define:hearsay&sa=X&ei=zVctTMvPJcSBlAfz36mzBA&ved=0CBIQkAE

Alrighty then she was full of crap and all was just as you are being told it is the news never slants anything and Putin is a wonderful leader who only has the good of the people in mind and they are all rich and living happily ever after.   :rolleyes:

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 10:58:03 PMIt would be hearsay if it were from someone who hadn't been there but she was there and seen it with her won eyes.

  Prove it.  What's the proof, any evidence, other than her words.  Was there DNA, finger prints.  A lot of men were sent to prison for some lying bitch wanting to get even.

Quote from: me on July 01, 2010, 11:35:08 PM
Alrighty then she was full of crap and all was just as you are being told it is...

You don't recognize shades of gray, do you? What she told you was probably her real impression of conditions in the small area of a huge country she visited for the two weeks her in-depth research took.  It is called "anecdotal evidence." It is never given as much weight as evidence which can be measured and quantified.

Quotethe news never slants anything and Putin is a wonderful leader who only has the good of the people in mind and they are all rich and living happily ever after.

My source wasn't from the news media. It was a chapter written by Peter Rutland, Professor of Government at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, for a college textbook, written in 2009, by Stephen Wegren, PhD, Professor of Political Science at SMU in Texas. And just for the record they document their sources.

Furthermore, I don't believe they -- or I -- expressed an opinion on Putin's quality as a leader.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 02, 2010, 07:27:24 AM

Furthermore, I don't believe they -- or I -- expressed an opinion on Putin's quality as a leader.

  I think Putin should be going life in prison.  He has a black history and a lot of skeletons in his closet.   Being in so high up in the KBG with the murders, midnight arrest where no one returned and torture.  This man is no one to trust.

  I think one of Russia problem today is, when the Communist Party fell, the criminals for one, the KBG, got off scott free.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 02, 2010, 07:27:24 AM
You don't recognize shades of gray, do you? What she told you was probably her real impression of conditions in the small area of a huge country she visited for the two weeks her in-depth research took.  It is called "anecdotal evidence." It is never given as much weight as evidence which can be measured and quantified.

My source wasn't from the news media. It was a chapter written by Peter Rutland, Professor of Government at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, for a college textbook, written in 2009, by Stephen Wegren, PhD, Professor of Political Science at SMU in Texas. And just for the record they document their sources.

Furthermore, I don't believe they -- or I -- expressed an opinion on Putin's quality as a leader.

Wouldn't the documented sources be the sources they had access to and what Russia allowed them to see and from people they were allowed to talk to?   Was he in the part of Russia that tourists don't go into? 

Wonder if Obama's people will sue Rhode Island too.....

QuoteArizona – the new Rhode Island?
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POSTED AT 8:31 PM ON JULY 7, 2010 BY ED MORRISSEY   
PRINTER-FRIENDLY

According to the Obama administration's lawsuit against the state of Arizona, their new law requiring police officers to investigate immigration status for those already in some form of detention violates their jurisdiction, which is what the argument of pre-emption means.  Barack Obama and Eric Holder want the courts to rule that only the federal writ runs in Arizona on immigration-law enforcement.  Apparently, though, the federal writ doesn't run in Rhode Island, where law enforcement has been doing for years exactly what the Arizona law Obama opposes mandates — without a peep from the DoJ:

Rest of article: http://hotair.com/archives/2010/07/07/arizona-the-new-rhode-island/

Quote from: me on July 10, 2010, 09:22:55 PM
Wonder if Obama's people will sue Rhode Island too.....

Rest of article: http://hotair.com/archives/2010/07/07/arizona-the-new-rhode-island/

It only takes one to rule on the matter, and if the ruling goes in favor of the feds all others will be stricken. . .

Quote from: Palehorse on July 10, 2010, 09:32:58 PM
It only takes one to rule on the matter, and if the ruling goes in favor of the feds all others will be stricken. . .

  Something has to be done.  I would like to see one law.  All employers of illegal aliens no matter what color, creed, religion and sex, that employer will go to jail, the first offense, for one week and a fine of $500 for each illegal employee.  After 3 strikes of illegal hiring pratices, 1 year, felony imprisonment and no time for good behavior and no time off for any reason.  Except turning in other illegal employers that hire illegals.

  50% of all fines go to the police agency that apprehend the criminals.  Plain and simple, hire a illegal alien and go to prison.  The last time it's a felony.

  It would be real interesting to see what would happen.  :flag:  :flag:  :flag:  :flag: :usmad:

Quote from: Palehorse on July 10, 2010, 09:32:58 PM
It only takes one to rule on the matter, and if the ruling goes in favor of the feds all others will be stricken. . .

QuoteNEWSER) – It's odd that the Obama administration is suing Arizona over its immigration law—because Rhode Island cops have been carrying out the same basic procedure for years, writes Andy McCarthy in the National Review. Rhode Island cops routinely check for immigration status during traffic stops, reporting any illegals they find to the feds. Critics argue that such checks will be a burden for cops, but in Rhode Island, the police insist on doing it.

So if there's a preemption issue here, why hasn't the Obama administration sued Rhode Island? Well, maybe because the Supreme Court case Muehler v. Mena already stated that police could ask about a person's immigration status without so much as probable cause, because questions don't constitute search or seizure. And because Rhode Island's already come out on top in one lawsuit, with a federal appeals court ruling that, based on Muehler v. Mena, the policy was fine.

http://www.newser.com/story/94984/hey-obama-sue-rhode-island-not-arizona.html

Quote from: me on July 11, 2010, 01:06:28 AM


http://www.newser.com/story/94984/hey-obama-sue-rhode-island-not-arizona.html

  Yeah, that damn old Obama, he's so mean suing poor little Arizona.  He won't pick on anybody else.  He makes me so damn mad I'd could eat worms all day.  :kickcan:  :kickcan:  Well, there's one thing for sure, the gutless Republicans wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole. :poke:  Now we will solve some, not all of the problems.  We will let the laws and the courts do it and maybe take the politics out of it.  More actitive judges. :biggrin:

   I think it was a smart move.  Well see how bad the Republican controlled Supreme Court handles this mess.  Or if we might get another Bush/Gore decision, a corporation being a human being decision or a government agency taking your property and selling it to a private corporation decision.

  Let the show Begin and the Republicans lie and the Republican sheeple wring their hands.  :biggrin: 

   I wonder how the Republicans will handle this.  :drool1:     :spooked:       :eek:      :mad:       :rolleyes:  :bliss:   :bliss:   :bliss:    Your guess is good as mine.  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  The Troll  :flag:   :biggrin:

Quote from: me on July 11, 2010, 01:06:28 AM


http://www.newser.com/story/94984/hey-obama-sue-rhode-island-not-arizona.html

Well I guess the POTUS is an evil man with evil intentions and the DOJ is in collusion with him to conspire to take over the state of Arizona then!  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Guess we better have a federal auditor go through the white house and make sure they are only using single-ply asswipe in the heads and aren't double flushing too!  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote from: me on July 10, 2010, 09:22:55 PM
Wonder if Obama's people will sue Rhode Island too.....

Rest of article: http://hotair.com/archives/2010/07/07/arizona-the-new-rhode-island/

Apparently there are differences that either the author of your article isn't aware of or he's dishonestly trying to spin the facts.

QuoteDemocrat, Rhode Island State Representative Peter Palumbo, who supports the law and wants to enact a similar one for his state

Hopefully, I don't need to explain to you that if Rhode Island is already practicing a similar law then it would be redundant to enact the same thing.

http://www.newshounds.us/2010/05/22/fox_news_trumpets_a_democrat_supporting_arizona_immigration_law.php

QuoteMARTIN: What is your sense of the states that are trying to move in this direction? I'm looking at the list of states where people are at least talking about this and I don't see a clear pattern. Do you? I mean, I see, I mean, obviously some states have the sort of a more conservative political environment in general. But, you know, similar measures have been introduced in Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island. Those aren't border states.

Notice the date. Why introduce it if it's already law?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128409659

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 11, 2010, 11:49:27 AM
Notice the date. Why introduce it if it's already law?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128409659

Answered in the next three paragraphs of the interview.

We attended our local crime watch meeting last week. We were told again, when the police are called to a house for some reason they can only ask the person they were called about their immigration status, "our hands are tied concerning everyone else present". This also applies if they stop a car or truck with several people in it, only the driver can be questioned. This is the third officer in as many years who has told our crime watch this.

I have also been told, privately, that even if they call ins about someone they have locked up they sometimes never get a callback so obviously the ins has no interest in deporting them.

Is this the way it really is or just the way the apd interpets the federal law? I don't know. What I do know is there ae a lot of illegal aliens in Madison county.

If You're Thinking of Sneaking Over Our Borders....by Larry Gatlin

A chicken and a pig were walking down the road and the chicken said, "Mr. Pig, I'm hungry. Let's stop somewhere and get some ham and eggs." The pig looked at Mr. Chicken and said, "Mr. Chicken, that's easy for you to say. For you it's no big deal...For me it's a life and death decision.

To those people who do not live in Arizona or California or New Mexico, or my great home state of Texas ...To those people who do not have illegal aliens climbing their fences and bringing guns and dope into their backyards...to those people who are condemning the people of Arizona for trying to protect their private property because the federal government WILL NOT PROTECT THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY BY SECURING OUR BORDER WITH MEXICO, to those people I say, like Mr. PIG said, "That's easy for you to say, for you it's no big deal." For those folks on "THIS SIDE OF THE RIVER," IT IS A LIFE AND DEATH SITUATION!!

So until you have had strangers,drug dealers, murderers...and yes, some hungry people just looking for a better life, trespass on your land and over burden your schools, hospitals, and emergency rooms, I say, "BUTT OUT!!"...or, at least try to show some understanding of the DIRE STRAIGHTS that our fellow LEGAL, LAW ABIDING, TAXPAYING, PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNING, and yes COMPASSIONATE, and MOSTLY, GOD FEARING (dear Lord, he had to throw GOD in the mix) AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE UP AGAINST ON A DAILY, MINUTE BY MINUTE BASIS!!

Somehow, believing that "charity and compassion begin at home, is now tantamount to being a "RACIST MONSTER WITH SWASTIKAS AND JACKBOOTS"...THAT IS JUST WRONG-HEADED, PREPOSTEROUS....and...uh, what's the word? HORSE_ _ _ _!!

If a bunch of Mexicans, Methodists, Massachusettsans, or Martians tried to scale the walls of the  "REMAINS OF CAMELOT," THE Kennedy compound in Hyannis, Massachusetts, or the walls of the Kerry Ketchup Kitchen in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, security guards would have the above mentioned Mexicans, Methodists, Massachusettsans, or Martians jacked up against those walls, spread-eagled with guns in their backs in a Massachusetts Minute.

Now, for a moment I want to forget my new position writing commentaries for FOXNEWS.COM...
If I were a poor Mexican father, trying to feed my kids, and I couldn't do it in Mexico, I would swim the river, climb the fence, or fight my way through hell itself to put food in their mouths... I GET IT!! I AM A FATHER.
But, it's still illegal. Maybe not as "illegal" as robbing a bank, or holding up a liquor store or stealing some little old ladies purse... But, it's still illegal and blaming the victims, the folks on "THIS SIDE OF THE RIVER," is not the answer.
There is no perfect answer, but throwing the RULE OF LAW into the RIO GRANDE RIVER???

So, I say to the world, if you want to be part of us...if you want to share the AMERICAN EXPERIENCE... DO IT THE RIGHT WAY. DON'T SNEAK INTO THIS GREAT LAND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. COME THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR AND I, ALONG WITH MILLIONS OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS AND GRANDSONS AND GRANDAUGHTERS OF LEGAL IMMIGRANTS STRETCHING BACK TO THE. FOUNDING OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY,WILL WELCOME YOU.

P. S. Mr. President, your demagoguery of the entire situation for political gain is beneath contempt.
P. P. S. Attorney General Holder, for you to file suit against the STATE of ARIZONA for trying to DO WHAT YOU AND YOUR JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL NOT DO...ALSO,
BENEATH CONTEMPT!!

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 12, 2010, 11:58:31 AMIf You're Thinking of Sneaking Over Our Borders....by Larry Gatlin A chicken and a pig were walking down the road and the chicken said, "Mr. Pig, I'm hungry. Let's stop somewhere and get some ham and eggs." The pig looked at Mr. Chicken and said, "Mr. Chicken, that's easy for you to say. For you it's no big deal...For me it's a life and death decision. To those people who do not live in Arizona or California or New Mexico, or my great home state of Texas ...To those people who do not have illegal aliens climbing their fences and bringing guns and dope into their backyards...to those people who are condemning the people of Arizona for trying to protect their private property because the federal government WILL NOT PROTECT THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY BY SECURING OUR BORDER WITH MEXICO, to those people I say, like Mr. PIG said, "That's easy for you to say, for you it's no big deal." For those folks on "THIS SIDE OF THE RIVER," IT IS A LIFE AND DEATH SITUATION!! So until you have had strangers,drug dealers, murderers...and yes, some hungry people just looking for a better life, trespass on your land and over burden your schools, hospitals, and emergency rooms, I say, "BUTT OUT!!"...or, at least try to show some understanding of the DIRE STRAIGHTS that our fellow LEGAL, LAW ABIDING, TAXPAYING, PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNING, and yes COMPASSIONATE, and MOSTLY, GOD FEARING (dear Lord, he had to throw GOD in the mix) AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE UP AGAINST ON A DAILY, MINUTE BY MINUTE BASIS!! Somehow, believing that "charity and compassion begin at home, is now tantamount to being a "RACIST MONSTER WITH SWASTIKAS AND JACKBOOTS"...THAT IS JUST WRONG-HEADED, PREPOSTEROUS....and...uh, what's the word? HORSE_ _ _ _!! If a bunch of Mexicans, Methodists, Massachusettsans, or Martians tried to scale the walls of the "REMAINS OF CAMELOT," THE Kennedy compound in Hyannis, Massachusetts, or the walls of the Kerry Ketchup Kitchen in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, security guards would have the above mentioned Mexicans, Methodists, Massachusettsans, or Martians jacked up against those walls, spread-eagled with guns in their backs in a Massachusetts Minute. Now, for a moment I want to forget my new position writing commentaries for FOXNEWS.COM... If I were a poor Mexican father, trying to feed my kids, and I couldn't do it in Mexico, I would swim the river, climb the fence, or fight my way through hell itself to put food in their mouths... I GET IT!! I AM A FATHER. But, it's still illegal. Maybe not as "illegal" as robbing a bank, or holding up a liquor store or stealing some little old ladies purse... But, it's still illegal and blaming the victims, the folks on "THIS SIDE OF THE RIVER," is not the answer. There is no perfect answer, but throwing the RULE OF LAW into the RIO GRANDE RIVER??? So, I say to the world, if you want to be part of us...if you want to share the AMERICAN EXPERIENCE... DO IT THE RIGHT WAY. DON'T SNEAK INTO THIS GREAT LAND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. COME THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR AND I, ALONG WITH MILLIONS OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS AND GRANDSONS AND GRANDAUGHTERS OF LEGAL IMMIGRANTS STRETCHING BACK TO THE. FOUNDING OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY,WILL WELCOME YOU. P. S. Mr. President, your demagoguery of the entire situation for political gain is beneath contempt. P. P. S. Attorney General Holder, for you to file suit against the STATE of ARIZONA for trying to DO WHAT YOU AND YOUR JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL NOT DO...ALSO, BENEATH CONTEMPT!!

  Mr. Hawk your demagoguery is unadulterated BULL SHIT as usual, for you.  Why didn't you mention John and Cindy McCain and his billionaire wife and their 8 homes and 15 cars.  Hummmmm.  I could mention more, you do know what I mean.  There is more millionaire and billionaires on your side than mine.

  I think what Obama and his Justice department did was the smart thing do, by putting it in the hands of the court and jury.  He blew the Republicans out of the water and their catbird seat.  It's up to the courts and the jury and the Republican controlled Supreme Court will do.  It's out of Obama's hands.  We will see what happens.

  You Republicans had 8 years under your wonderful George W. to solve the illegal aliens problem.  The abortion problem, taking a woman's rights away and the gay marriage problem and you did nothing and what your party is doing now NOTHING.  So why don't you shut you're damn mouth about Obama not doing what your WONDERFUL GOBP didn't and couldn't do.

  Everything you say about Obama is unproven and lying BULL SHIT.  :trustme:

Quote from: The Troll on July 12, 2010, 01:50:49 PM
  Mr. Hawk your demagoguery is unadulterated BULL SHIT as usual, for you.  Why didn't you mention John and Cindy McCain and his billionaire wife and their 8 homes and 15 cars. 

But THEY are not bitching about the bill, they WANT something done...

Quote from: The Troll on July 12, 2010, 01:50:49 PM
  I think what Obama and his Justice department did was the smart thing do, by putting it in the hands of the court and jury.  He blew the Republicans out of the water and their catbird seat.  It's up to the courts and the jury and the Republican controlled Supreme Court will do.  It's out of Obama's hands.  We will see what happens.

I think it was a poor move by Obama, he should have supported the bill and simply allow AZ to do what the fed gov SHOULD have been doing.

Quote from: The Troll on July 12, 2010, 01:50:49 PM
  You Republicans had 8 years under your wonderful George W. to solve the illegal aliens problem.  The abortion problem, taking a woman's rights away and the gay marriage problem and you did nothing and what your party is doing now NOTHING.  So why don't you shut you're damn mouth about Obama not doing what your WONDERFUL GOBP didn't and couldn't do.

  Everything you say about Obama is unproven and lying BULL SHIT.  :trustme:

I do not disagree with you one  bit on Bush and the repubs BLEW thier opportunity on the boarders....they DID BLOW it...BIG TIME....

btw, I will shut my damn mouth when Obama and the democrats quit destroying this country...........you can blame bush for only so long.....Bush and the republicans are NOT the ones spending us into oblivian...Bush and the republicans are NOT in controll of things....the democrats are, and THEY are the one's who PROMISED to get JOBS back, and our Country back in order, but all I see is spend, spend, spend and MORE and MORE unemployment....and there is NO lying what-so-ever about Obama....HE made the promises, NOT me or Bush......OBAMA...(http://theunknownzone.us/smf/Smileys3/default/trust.gif)

  Well Henry, I have ask you time and time again what would you do about he unemployment problem.    All of our jobs out of the country.  Our banks and stock market can't be trusted with anyone's money.  Illegal aliens flooding the country.  The Republican sitting on their hand saying no to everything and hoping the can destroy Obama and with it the whole government so they can  build it up for the New Republic of the Republican United States of American and their wonderful standards.

Quote from: The Troll on July 12, 2010, 02:19:57 PM
  Well Henry, I have ask you time and time again what would you do about he unemployment problem.    All of our jobs out of the country.  Our banks and stock market can't be trusted with anyone's money.  Illegal aliens flooding the country.  The Republican sitting on their hand saying no to everything and hoping the can destroy Obama and with it the whole government so they can  build it up for the New Republic of the Republican United States of American and their wonderful standards.

and I have told you time and time again, I would suspend the capital gains tax for one year.....and sit back and watch the consumer confidence flourish, the stock market rocket, and small business world would have new life...and WHY would a republican just say YES to something they do not believe in?...you got to quit bitchin at the republicans, because the democrats are NEVER going to have another chance like the are have had....if things are not getting done the way they wanted it is because they did not have the proper leadership...Reagan managed to get things done with democrats in controll...Clinton managed to get things done with republicans in controll, but why can't Obama get things done with his own in controll?....there USED to be a thing called politics where they wheeled and dealed....now it's MY way or NOWAY...

anyway things ARE going to change this Novemeber.....(http://theunknownzone.us/smf/Smileys3/default/patriot.gif)(http://theunknownzone.us/smf/Smileys3/default/trust.gif)

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 12, 2010, 04:05:39 PM
and I have told you time and time again, I would suspend the capital gains tax for one year.....and sit back and watch the consumer confidence flourish, the stock market rocket, and small business world would have new life...

Despite all of the facts, figures and links you've been provided over the years that soundly disprove this theory, you continue to cling to it.  The money brokers have done an excellent job over the years convincing middle class people who are too dumb to do the math themselves that letting the rich avoid taxes somehow benefits those who are not.  It's pathetic, really.

Quote from: Exterminator on July 12, 2010, 04:45:33 PM
Despite all of the facts, figures and links you've been provided over the years that soundly disprove this theory, you continue to cling to it.  The money brokers have done an excellent job over the years convincing middle class people who are too dumb to do the math themselves that letting the rich avoid taxes somehow benefits those who are not.  It's pathetic, really.

AND I HAVE SUPPLIED YOU WITH FACTS AND FIGURES THAT PROVED EXACTLY WHAT I SAID....I CLING TO IT, BECAUSE IT IS A PROVEN PATH OF ECONOMIC STIMULATION......I HAVE READ YOUR LINKS SEVERAL TIMES, AND I HAVE READ AND WITNESSED THE LATER...IT WORKS....DESPITE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE....IT IS NOT A PERMANENT FIX, BUT IT DOES STIMULATE THE ECONOMY.

Wrong.  You have never supplied me with any links to support this fantasy because they don't exist.  I provided you with empirical data from the Congressional Budget Office which you have routinely ignored.  If, as you say, you had ever bothered to read any of the information supllied by myself and others, you either would have backed off of this ridiculous stance or you're too stupid to dress yourself.  I don't believe the latter is true so I can only assume that you are unwilling to read or consider anything that might bring your little make-believe version of how economics works crashing down around you.

In this economy, the wealthy will not invest excess capital on either new ventures or expanding existing ones.  It simply doesn't make good fiscal sense.

Quote from: Exterminator on July 12, 2010, 04:59:34 PM
Wrong.  You have never supplied me with any links to support this fantasy because they don't exist.  I provided you with empirical data from the Congressional Budget Office which you have routinely ignored.  If, as you say, you had ever bothered to read any of the information supllied by myself and others, you either would have backed off of this ridiculous stance or you're too stupid to dress yourself.  I don't believe the latter is true so I can only assume that you are unwilling to read or consider anything that might bring your little make-believe version of how economics works crashing down around you.

I will post it again.......read it, or are YOU afraid that YOU might be proven wrong?......http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2001/10/Capital-Gains-Tax-Cuts (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2001/10/Capital-Gains-Tax-Cuts)

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 12, 2010, 04:05:39 PMand I have told you time and time again, I would suspend the capital gains tax for one year.....and sit back and watch the consumer confidence flourish, the stock market rocket, and small business world would have new life...and WHY would a republican just say YES to something they do not believe in?...you got to quit bitchin at the republicans, because the democrats are NEVER going to have another chance like the are have had....if things are not getting done the way they wanted it is because they did not have the proper leadership...Reagan managed to get things done with democrats in controll...Clinton managed to get things done with republicans in controll, but why can't Obama get things done with his own in controll?....there USED to be a thing called politics where they wheeled and dealed....now it's MY way or NOWAY... anyway things ARE going to change this Novemeber.....(http://theunknownzone.us/smf/Smileys3/default/patriot.gif)(http://theunknownzone.us/smf/Smileys3/default/trust.gif)

   Keep dreaming Henry. :zzz:  There are only 10 open seats in the Senate and if you got all of them, you might have a one or two majority.  WOW.  You sure take that to the :toilet: with you.  You still still have to face a veto and sure as hell you're not going to get 60 votes on anything.  You can bet of that.  The Republican will not get anything more than they are now.  NOTHING!  Because they are worthless.

  Reagan, WOW!  Won the Cold War all by himself. :bs:  He and Newt Gingrich started all of the :bs: we're going through now and three ( 3 ) tax raises.  UP to his time when he left office he had the largest deficit in the history of our country.  Praise to God, the greatest President in the United States of America's history, Ronald Reagan :bs:

  WOW.  You want to cut capital gains taxes to  create jobs.  :bs:  Henry the first thing you have to have is a product that is in demand and PEOPLE WITH MONEY.  Your can create all the businesses you want, but you have people who can buy it.  They cut the ca pitail gain tax once and what did that get us.  Henry why don't your Republican Party start to working on bring some of our jobs back.  Reagan started NAFTA, why don't your party start bring them back.  Yeah when :pigfly:

  Do you believe that giving a capital gains break would bring all of the businesses lost in Anderson, Indiana, back and I'n not talking about GM.  Remember all of the good small business in Anderson.  Or you still dreaming. :zzzz:

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 12, 2010, 05:08:32 PM

I will post it again.......read it, or are YOU afraid that YOU might be proven wrong?......http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2001/10/Capital-Gains-Tax-Cuts (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2001/10/Capital-Gains-Tax-Cuts)

I appreciate the fact that you posted this report. However, the name of the author is not visible, and he provides no data to support his conclusion. How do I know whether or not I agree, when there is no supporting evidence? He could have pulled the conclusions out of his butt.

Now, as me is fond of telling us, the Bush tax breaks for the wealthy are about to expire. How 'bout providing us with a report detailing all the wonderful investment and job creation those tax cuts have made possible in the last decade?

Quote from: LOsborne on July 12, 2010, 06:52:00 PM
I appreciate the fact that you posted this report. However, the name of the author is not visible, and he provides no data to support his conclusion. How do I know whether or not I agree, when there is no supporting evidence? He could have pulled the conclusions out of his butt.

Exactly, and he makes ridiculous cause/effect relationships as well.

QuoteNow, as me is fond of telling us, the Bush tax breaks for the wealthy are about to expire. How 'bout providing us with a report detailing all the wonderful investment and job creation those tax cuts have made possible in the last decade?

That would be the elephant in the room, now wouldn't it?

"reductions in the overall taxation of capital income can measurably increase economic growth...."

This is a direct quote taken from the Congressional Budget Office, YOUR source of "emperical data"....http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=3856&type=0


and here is another article that gives a clear explanation of WHY, eliminating the capital gains COULD be a very, very good way to stimulate economic growth....

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/august/capital-gains-tax-an-argument-for-repeal/ (http://www.american.com/archive/2009/august/capital-gains-tax-an-argument-for-repeal/)

I'm NOT pulling this out of my ass, it is not only supported by many economic experts, it just makes for common sense..

Nice try at taking that partial sentence out of context to fit your agenda, Henry but we're not idiots.  Here's the entire conclusion which paints a markedly different picture: "Revenue estimators are often faulted for the way they project tax receipts and prepare legislative cost estimates related to capital gains taxes. But the relationship of realizations and receipts to gains tax rates is neither predictable nor obvious. And while reductions in the overall taxation of capital income can measurably increase economic growth, a cut in capital gains taxes alone is likely to produce much smaller macroeconomic effects. Inaccuracies in projecting revenue and disagreements about the effects of tax changes stem not from a failure to incorporate the behavioral responses of asset holders but from the complexities inherent in the nature of gains and gains realizations."

Quoting a right-wing article by the ethically challenged Newt Gingrich does nothing to support your position either.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 13, 2010, 08:35:51 AM"reductions in the overall taxation of capital income can measurably increase economic growth...." This is a direct quote taken from the Congressional Budget Office, YOUR source of "emperical data"....http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=3856&type=0 and here is another article that gives a clear explanation of WHY, eliminating the capital gains COULD be a very, very good way to stimulate economic growth.... http://www.american.com/archive/2009/august/capital-gains-tax-an-argument-for-repeal/ (http://www.american.com/archive/2009/august/capital-gains-tax-an-argument-for-repeal/) I'm NOT pulling this out of my ass, it is not only supported by many economic experts, it just makes for common sense..

Henry you can take all of your websites and stick-um. I know what is happening and all of your Republican slanted websites is going to change my mind. Especially what your Republican Party has done to America. As for you I hope you get some of your own medicine, that you and your party is trying to cram down everybodies throats. With all of it's free trade and give the rich and their corporations everything agenda. Lying, cheating and name calling which are all lies.

The sad part, Troll, is that people like Henry have actually been convinced that it is to their benefit when the rich get richer.  Where do they think that money comes from?

Quote from: Exterminator on July 13, 2010, 09:37:59 AM
Nice try at taking that partial sentence out of context to fit your agenda, Henry but we're not idiots.  Here's the entire conclusion which paints a markedly different picture: "Revenue estimators are often faulted for the way they project tax receipts and prepare legislative cost estimates related to capital gains taxes. But the relationship of realizations and receipts to gains tax rates is neither predictable nor obvious. And while reductions in the overall taxation of capital income can measurably increase economic growth, a cut in capital gains taxes alone is likely to produce much smaller macroeconomic effects. Inaccuracies in projecting revenue and disagreements about the effects of tax changes stem not from a failure to incorporate the behavioral responses of asset holders but from the complexities inherent in the nature of gains and gains realizations."

Quoting a right-wing article by the ethically challenged Newt Gingrich does nothing to support your position either.

that QUOTE was NOT from Newt, it was from the CBO, the group YOU said was 'emperical evidence'...and despite the whole paragraph, THOSE words, reductions in the overall taxation of capital income can measurably increase economic growth...mean exactly THAT....IT DOES stimulate economic growth and THAT is all I have ever claimed...........Troll, wanted to know what I would do different, and THAT is exaclty what I would do....and what MOST conservatives actually believe to be the best solution to todays problem....and that was NOT just cutting the Captial Gains, it would be to SUSPEND them for ONE year......THAT would STIMULATE this economy rapidliy...

Troll, you can close your eyes and think that ALL conservatives are EVIL because that is what your daddy told you to think, OR, you can open your eyes and your mind and honestly look at what is being proposed....

btw, there is nothing wrong with "rich" people getting "richer" IF, it is done through a 'free market' and through 'free enterpirse'...the ability to succeed or fail, is up to folks who WANT to work hard and let the system work the way it is supposed to.....I can tell you one thing it is NOT a good thing for a bunch of 'white shirts' in Washington having the powers to dictate "how rich one can get"....and "redistributing" other peoples money to someone who thinks they are "entitled" to something, JUST because life is not fair.....or THEY are not willing to live withing thier means, and expect that they deserve the same life of one who has "earned" a special skill or trade..or made any sacrifice that those who DID, to accomplish a better way of life for their family....THAT mentality of MOST democrats is what is 'RUINING' this country......and THAT Troll, is a travesty and YOU should be ashamed and quit harrassing folks like myself who WANT those BASTARDS to quit playing politics and start doing what is BEST for America and quit blaming those who happend to be successful as the enemey....

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 13, 2010, 11:16:30 AM
that QUOTE was NOT from Newt, it was from the CBO,

My comment about Newt was referring to your second link; try to keep up.

QuoteTHOSE words, reductions in the overall taxation of capital income can measurably increase economic growth...mean exactly THAT....IT DOES stimulate economic growth and THAT is all I have ever claimed.

Right here, folks, is a perfect example of what I have tried to explain so many times on this forum about the importance of literacy.  Henry reads that phrase and concludes from it that it means what he wants it to mean when in the context of the paragraph from which it was taken it doesn't say anything of the sort.  Hell, even the phrase by itself doesn't say that it does stimulate economic growth but that it can.  What the paragraph really says is that the degree to which any tax cut may or may not stimulate growth is dependent on many different factors and a lot more complicated than people like Henry have been led to believe.

Quotebtw, there is nothing wrong with "rich" people getting "richer" IF, it is done through a 'free market' and through 'free enterpirse'...the ability to succeed or fail, is up to folks who WANT to work hard and let the system work the way it is supposed to.

So can we assume that you're not rich because you haven't worked hard because according to your formula, you should be if you had.  Again, where do you think that money comes from?  It comes out of your pocket, genius.

Quote....I can tell you one thing it is NOT a good thing for a bunch of 'white shirts' in Washington having the powers to dictate "how rich one can get"....and "redistributing" other peoples money to someone who thinks they are "entitled" to something, JUST because life is not fair.

Well, my little sheeple, the white shirts in Washington, specifically the Republicans but the dems have had a hand in it as well, have doing exactly that for a long time.  There is no free market...the politicians have effectively stacked the deck in favor of the wealthy and against the middle class.  You are simply too dense to realize that they have sold you on being a shill for a system that currently works in direct opposition to your best interests.

  Double Amen, brother Exterminator. :yeah: :clap: :clap: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Exterminator on July 13, 2010, 01:15:40 PM


So can we assume that you're not rich because you haven't worked hard because according to your formula, you should be if you had.  Again, where do you think that money comes from?  It comes out of your pocket, genius.

And where do you think the jobs come from to put in our pockets so we can have the money to spend genius? 

What I cannot understand is why anyone would still be parroting that line of tripe, when the cuts they want to keep are still there and the net result is NOTHING constructive toward job growth from the private sector. Extend them and it will still be the very same thing.

Like the rest of us, the rich are running for cover; the only difference is they stand to lose less than those of us who can ill afford to lose anything!

Quote from: Exterminator on July 13, 2010, 01:15:40 PM
My comment about Newt was referring to your second link; try to keep up.

I'm pretty sure that Newt Gingrich, who was at once ONE of the most powerful men in this Country, and had much to do with the successful years of Clinton, knows 'a little' more about economics of this Country than YOU do... ;)

Quote from: Exterminator on July 13, 2010, 01:15:40 PM
Right here, folks, is a perfect example of what I have tried to explain so many times on this forum about the importance of literacy.  Henry reads that phrase and concludes from it that it means what he wants it to mean when in the context of the paragraph from which it was taken it doesn't say anything of the sort.  Hell, even the phrase by itself doesn't say that it does stimulate economic growth but that it can.  What the paragraph really says is that the degree to which any tax cut may or may not stimulate growth is dependent on many different factors and a lot more complicated than people like Henry have been led to believe.

I have posted SEVERAL links over the years with PROOF, hell, we LIVED through some great economic times BECAUSE of stimulated growth due to the cutting of taxes....that quote was FROM YOUR SOUCE...EX, and it says,  reductions in the overall taxation of capital income can measurably increase economic growth....PERIOD.....from THE CBO....I never claimed that other factors COULD not also contribute......bu the fact remains, The CBO, admits, it CAN measurably increase economic growth...where as YOU and your liberal friends on here, claim that is does NOT...IT DOES!!

Quote from: Exterminator on July 13, 2010, 01:15:40 PM
So can we assume that you're not rich because you haven't worked hard because according to your formula, you should be if you had.  Again, where do you think that money comes from?  It comes out of your pocket, genius.

Well, Einstein, you know exactly what I meant.... btw, being rich is a matter of perspective... ;) ...I am rich, as far as I am able to live a happy and content life, with a wife of 26 years and five kids, a comfortable home, a wonderful job.....and I DID achieve this because of HARD work....

and YES, those entrepreneurs did get some of my money because THEY worked hard and offered something that I CHOOSE to buy from them.....that is the way things are SUPPOSED  to work... ;)

Quote from: Exterminator on July 13, 2010, 01:15:40 PM
Well, my little sheeple, the white shirts in Washington, specifically the Republicans but the dems have had a hand in it as well, have doing exactly that for a long time.  There is no free market...the politicians have effectively stacked the deck in favor of the wealthy and against the middle class.  You are simply too dense to realize that they have sold you on being a shill for a system that currently works in direct opposition to your best interests.

I do not deny that at all, and THAT is why I consider myself a conservative and NOT a republican or a democrat...and that is why I am 100% against what is going on right now, with more and more spending and governments determination to CONTROL the masses by it's desperate attempt to enforce more and more "rules" and "laws" to take away OUR freedoms....the only "dense" sheeples are those who think Obama, Pelosi and Reid really want what is best for this country...and cannot see what is going on...... :yes: ......it is time to STOP all of this chaos, and simply get back to restoring our freedoms.

  How can someone be so wrong and not know it.  It must be some form of mental insanity.   Down the rabbit hole to Wonderland.

      :flap:  :flap:  :flap:  :flap:  :wacko:  :bliss:  :bliss:   :bliss:  :bliss:


  And just think all you have to do is lose your job to someone when your outsources.  How strong are your boot straps. 

Quote from: The Troll on July 13, 2010, 04:13:37 PM
  How can someone be so wrong and not know it.  It must be some form of mental insanity.   Down the rabbit hole to Wonderland.

      :flap:  :flap:  :flap:  :flap:  :wacko:  :bliss:  :bliss:   :bliss:  :bliss:


  And just think all you have to do is lose your job to someone when your outsources.  How strong are your boot straps. 

and just WHAT exactly are the democrats doing to change things?....HOW, are they keeping jobs from leaving here?

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 13, 2010, 04:19:30 PM
and just WHAT exactly are the democrats doing to change things?....HOW, are they keeping jobs from leaving here?

They can't because of the republican obstructionist political campaign!  :mad:

Quote from: Palehorse on July 13, 2010, 05:05:09 PM
They can't because of the republican obstructionist political campaign!  :mad:

:confused:

Quote from: me on July 13, 2010, 02:09:28 PM
And where do you think the jobs come from to put in our pockets so we can have the money to spend genius? 

I'm still waiting for you or Henry to provide us with a report (or a link to one -- factual data only, please) which will quantify all the wonderful jobs that were created as a result of the ten years of Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Our expectations of the jobs which would be created by suspending the capital gains tax should be similar.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 13, 2010, 06:56:52 PM
I'm still waiting for you or Henry to provide us with a report (or a link to one -- factual data only, please) which will quantify all the wonderful jobs that were created as a result of the ten years of Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Our expectations of the jobs which would be created by suspending the capital gains tax should be similar.

  Don't hold you breath.  I still waiting for him to tell me if cutting capital gains tax would bring jobs  and the small business back to Anderson.  Remember all the fine small business there were in Anderson.

  Another thing that bothers me about Henry.  He want to give the rich money, with tax cuts, who don't need it and are really doing fine.  But he don't want to give a single penny to a out of work middle class worker who has had his job out sourced.  I think that if he has a heart, it's cold and black and pumps piss.

Quote from: The Troll on July 13, 2010, 07:52:20 PM
   I think that if he has a heart, it's cold and black and pumps piss.

I think you're getting too personal in your attacks. If you want to question his conclusions, go for it. If you want to question his character, this ain't the place. By the way, are you still beating your wife?

Quote from: The Troll on July 13, 2010, 07:52:20 PM
  . . .  I think that if he has a heart, it's cold and black and pumps piss.

Naw. . . It pumps purple Kool Aid just like Cheney's!  :biggrin: (Only Cheney has a battery back up!)  :icon_twisted:

Quote from: Palehorse on July 13, 2010, 07:57:23 PM
Naw. . . It pumps purple Kool Aid just like Cheney's!

Cheney's heart doesn't pump anything. He is undead.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 13, 2010, 07:58:47 PM
Cheney's heart doesn't pump anything. He is undead.

Then what is the battery for????

Quote from: Palehorse on July 13, 2010, 07:59:27 PM
Then what is the battery for????

Accoutrements.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 13, 2010, 08:00:41 PM
Accoutrements.

He has a check engine light, or is it heated mirrors?

A HUGE ego pump.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 13, 2010, 06:56:52 PM
I'm still waiting for you or Henry to provide us with a report (or a link to one -- factual data only, please) which will quantify all the wonderful jobs that were created as a result of the ten years of Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Our expectations of the jobs which would be created by suspending the capital gains tax should be similar.

You'll be waiting a long time...neither Henry or 'me' will address the elephant in the room.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 13, 2010, 02:42:25 PM
I have posted SEVERAL links over the years with PROOF, hell, we LIVED through some great economic times BECAUSE of stimulated growth due to the cutting of taxes....that quote was FROM YOUR SOUCE...EX, and it says,  reductions in the overall taxation of capital income can measurably increase economic growth....PERIOD.....from THE CBO....I never claimed that other factors COULD not also contribute......bu the fact remains, The CBO, admits, it CAN measurably increase economic growth...where as YOU and your liberal friends on here, claim that is does NOT...IT DOES!!

Dear god...it is pointless to continue to attempt meaningful discussion over this or any other issue until you learn how to read.

Quote from: Palehorse on July 13, 2010, 05:05:09 PM
They can't because of the republican obstructionist political campaign!  :mad:

bullshit!!!.. :rant: ..that is the lamest excuse I have EVER heard.. :rant: ..if it had NOT been for a few strong hearted republicans, we would have been in even WORSE mess... :rant: .....





i just deleted the rest of my rant, only because I have way too much respect for a few on here..........as God as my witness, I don't know why I waste my time here... :no:

Quote from: Exterminator on July 14, 2010, 07:48:14 AM
Dear god...it is pointless to continue to attempt meaningful discussion over this or any other issue until you learn how to read.

I have read EXACTLY what it meant to say....and I proved to YOU that YOU was wrong.....with the emprical facts as you called it....and I can careless if this discussion continues any further...........I have laid out enough of a case by some of the top economist who ALL agree that the first thing that SHOULD be done is cutting or suspending the Capital Gains tax.....Lolly do you need a few pie charts or what?.......


the bottom line is, it is just common sense......you allow business' that are struggling to keep MORE of it's money to continue operations, to move forward, NOT backwards......it would allow companies who would LIKE to expand, to expand....right now, they are terrified to expand....I know of two companies right now, who are holding off ALL spending, that we normally would be doing work for, until this economy show signs of improving....there are companies who are laying off, IF, they had NO taxes to pay this year, they would NOT be laying off......WALL STREET alone would rocket, if such a move was made to suspend the Capital Gains tax...folks would begin to reinvest into the stock market.......

just read some of the links I provided instead of looking at how to degrade the writers, and prove them wrong, because they don't line up with YOUR way of thinking.....

I'm wearing thin, and this is not really much fun anymore around here, it is the same old same old everyday...

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 14, 2010, 08:26:28 AM
....Lolly do you need a few pie charts or what?.......

Sure. Ya got some? That show the jobs created by the Bush tax cuts? Post them, please, please, please, pull-eeze!

Quote from: LOsborne on July 14, 2010, 08:28:24 AM
Sure. Ya got some? That show the jobs created by the Bush tax cuts? Post them, please, please, please, pull-eeze!

again, without all the pie charts, graphs, statistics, and speadsheet..............all you got to do is look back.............we had tax cuts, and unemployement went to 4.5%..................what else do you need?......funny thing too, when the democrats took control of congress, it began to rise?..........hmmmm

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 14, 2010, 08:26:28 AM
I have read EXACTLY what it meant to say....and I proved to YOU that YOU was wrong...

Uh, no and no.

QuoteI'm wearing thin, and this is not really much fun anymore around here, it is the same old same old everyday...

It's beyond not much fun; it's a ridiculous waste of time, in my opinion.

Quote from: Exterminator on July 14, 2010, 10:25:17 AM
It's beyond not much fun; it's a ridiculous waste of time, in my opinion.

we DO agree on something every ONCE in a while... ;) :yes:

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 14, 2010, 08:52:58 AM
again, without all the pie charts, graphs, statistics, and speadsheet..............all you got to do is look back.............we had tax cuts, and unemployement went to 4.5%..................what else do you need?......funny thing too, when the democrats took control of congress, it began to rise?..........hmmmm

So, no pie charts to show the wonderful job opportunities created by the Bush tax cuts? Why am I not surprised? Instead, you played the old do-loop about democrats causing unemployment.

Henry, because I am convinced you really don't understand how the economy works, I am providing a link to EconEdLink. It will explain many mysteries to you, including the contradictory occurrence of how the unemployment rate can rise, when there are actually more jobs.

http://www.econedlink.org/unemployment/

There is also a chart (yes, I had no trouble finding one) showing the unemployment rate actually started falling dramatically in 1992. It bottomed out in 2000 and then began it's climb to the present level.

Nothing is so simple as you seem to think.

Quote from: LOsborne on July 13, 2010, 07:56:55 PM
I think you're getting too personal in your attacks. If you want to question his conclusions, go for it. If you want to question his character, this ain't the place. By the way, are you still beating your wife?

  Thank you, Mother Teresa.  :razz: :yes:

Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 14, 2010, 08:14:41 AM

  as God as my witness, I don't know why I waste my time here... :no:

  Well, Henry I don't see any chain on your ass.  Leave, but I bet you would miss us.  Who else would even listen to your bull shit and your Republican slanted news facts.

  I would sure miss you, because I never heard anything like, what comes out of you mind and help me under stand the people in the Tea Party.  I never seen one educated man who was so wrong on everything.  Man, there is so many thing I don't understand about you.   :yes:

   Tho it tickles me, you like the man in the insane asylum, screaming that everybody there is crazy but him.  :yes: :yes: :biggrin:

A nice sign paid for by our government.....

Instead of doing their job and go after the criminals, they just put up signs to warn us about the bad people... :rolleyes:

(http://www.greatsataninc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/BLM-Warning-Sign1.jpg)

Why don't we just mount a bunch of  Phalanx CIWS along the entire border??? Kill anything and everything that moves and be done with it!  :rolleyes:

(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/ciws-label.jpg)

Quote from: Palehorse on September 02, 2010, 03:18:50 PM
Why don't we just mount a bunch of  Phalanx CIWS along the entire border??? Kill anything and everything that moves and be done with it!  :rolleyes:

(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/ciws-label.jpg)

why don't we just do our jobs?

Why don't they put someone there who can take care of those armed dangerous criminals instead of just a sign.  That drug cartel knows that if someone on this side of the border shoots one of them all the rest have to do is act like innocent immigrants and the person who did the shooting is in deep dodo.  They're laughin' there behinds off at us and you know it.

It makes us look like cowards, instead of going down there and sending these guys to prison of blow their asses away, and put an end to this corruption....and sign is a joke... :rolleyes:

why don't we put a sign in all bad neighborhoods warning people it might not be safe.... :rolleyes:

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 02, 2010, 04:38:26 PM
It makes us look like cowards, instead of going down there and sending these guys to prison of blow their asses away, and put an end to this corruption....and sign is a joke... :rolleyes:

why don't we put a sign in all bad neighborhoods warning people it might not be safe.... :rolleyes:

  Why don't we use common sense.  It plain and simple.  Won't cost us anything, it could make us a lot of money.  Are you ready.

  Arrests anybody and I mean anybody that hires an illegal alien is fined $1000 for each and every one of them.  The first time.  Second time $5000 for each and every illegal alien and 30 days in jail for the owner or in a corporation the top person in the company and the person who did the actual hiring.  The third time, the third strike.  The lost of the business to the state and a felony charge and 1 year in prison.


This would put a stop of the illegal aliens.  :yes: :biggrin:

Quote from: The Troll on September 02, 2010, 04:56:15 PM
  Why don't we use common sense.  It plain and simple.  Won't cost us anything, it could make us a lot of money.  Are you ready.

  Arrests anybody and I mean anybody that hires an illegal alien is fined $1000 for each and every one of them.  The first time.  Second time $5000 for each and every illegal alien and 30 days in jail for the owner or in a corporation the top person in the company and the person who did the actual hiring.  The third time, the third strike.  The lost of the business to the state and a felony charge and 1 year in prison.


This would put a stop of the illegal aliens.  :yes: :biggrin:

I agree with this, but that will NOT put an end immediatly...that will take time....and it will not stop the drug cartel that is having it's way down there....I say it is time we do the job that we have supposed to have been doing, and not.

we must defend our borders, and install some practical laws for entering the country and becoming a citizen....that is really not too much to ask, but giving immigrants an amnesty is a GREAT way for liberals to gain some cheap votes....and THAT is the motive behind all of this....

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 02, 2010, 05:05:40 PM
I agree with this, but that will NOT put an end immediatly...that will take time....and it will not stop the drug cartel that is having it's way down there....I say it is time we do the job that we have supposed to have been doing, and not.

we must defend our borders, and install some practical laws for entering the country and becoming a citizen....that is really not too much to ask, but giving immigrants an amnesty is a GREAT way for liberals to gain some cheap votes....and THAT is the motive behind all of this....

  Illegal aliens can't vote, but they are a nice cheap source of labor for the Republican Business owners.  Like the large meat cutting companies that poison us and the large egg companies that poison us.

  We do need a super strong border protection against the criminals.  Shoot them and put them away.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 02, 2010, 03:22:27 PM

why don't we just do our jobs?

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 02, 2010, 05:05:40 PM
. . .

we must defend our borders, and install some practical laws for entering the country and becoming a citizen....that is really not too much to ask, . . .

The feds would if states like AZ would stop cluttering up the works with their unconstitutional initiatives. . .and republicans would stop practicing obstructionist politics. . .

The laws are already in place. . . how much more of your paycheck are you willing to give to the feds to pay for the headcount necessary to enforce them above and beyond what is being done now?

Quote from: Palehorse on September 02, 2010, 05:31:14 PM
The feds would if states like AZ would stop cluttering up the works with their unconstitutional initiatives. . .and republicans would stop practicing obstructionist politics. . .

The laws are already in place. . . how much more of your paycheck are you willing to give to the feds to pay for the headcount necessary to enforce them above and beyond what is being done now?

If the laws that were already in place had been being enforced Az wouldn't have had to do what they did which was simply start enforcing them.  Why is it some people seem to be siding with the people who are doing wrong or breaking laws lately rather than siding with the people who are the victims? 

Quote from: me on September 02, 2010, 06:53:36 PM
If the laws that were already in place had been being enforced Az wouldn't have had to do what they did which was simply start enforcing them.  Why is it some people seem to be siding with the people who are doing wrong or breaking laws lately rather than siding with the people who are the victims?

Circular logic that seeks to avoid the obvious question: How much more of your paycheck are you willing to divert toward the additional headcount that will be required to enforce the laws already on the books at a level above that which is taking place today?

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 02, 2010, 05:05:40 PM
...but giving immigrants an amnesty is a GREAT way for liberals to gain some cheap votes....and THAT is the motive behind all of this....

Huh? Illegal immigrants don't vote.

Oops. Sorry, Troll. You beat me to it.

Quote from: me on September 02, 2010, 06:53:36 PM
Why is it some people seem to be siding with the people who are doing wrong or breaking laws lately rather than siding with the people who are the victims? 

Well, ya see, me, the people who are doing wrong are the employers who cart these people in by the bus-load and give them classes in how to use the ER and food stamps -- and how to fill out W-4's so no taxes are withheld. I don't know why Congress continues to side with these pirates, imposing wrist slaps and fines which are less than the normal cost of doing business. The laws that are already in place are toothless. We need some nasty new laws to punish the corporate officers and board of directors of these companies. And while we're passing new legislation, legalizing drugs would go a long way toward de-fanging the cartels.

Legalize weed and watch the economy turn around and the deficit disappear!  :yes:

Quote from: LOsborne on September 02, 2010, 07:20:18 PM
Well, ya see, me, the people who are doing wrong are the employers who cart these people in by the bus-load and give them classes in how to use the ER and food stamps -- and how to fill out W-4's so no taxes are withheld. I don't know why Congress continues to side with these pirates, imposing wrist slaps and fines which are less than the normal cost of doing business. The laws that are already in place are toothless. We need some nasty new laws to punish the corporate officers and board of directors of these companies. And while we're passing new legislation, legalizing drugs would go a long way toward de-fanging the cartels.

They aren't the ones carting in the drug cartels. And yes, if given amnesty the illegals will be citizens who will then be able to vote.

Quote from: me on September 02, 2010, 08:10:17 PM
They aren't the ones carting in the drug cartels. And yes, if given amnesty the illegals will be citizens who will then be able to vote.

Now don't go blaming the hispanics for America's weed habit! There are plenty of "Americans" growing it themselves right here in the states. Why just today the FEDS and ISP announced the eradication of $47.5 million dollars worth of plants growing in the Hoosier National Forest. . . And last week two Evansville women were busted at the Mexican border trying to smuggle in a bunch of it.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100902/NEWS02/100902037/Ind.-state-police-feds-seize-47.5M-in-pot (http://www.indystar.com/article/20100902/NEWS02/100902037/Ind.-state-police-feds-seize-47.5M-in-pot)

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/aug/27/attorney-general-evansville-women-arrested-crossin/ (http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/aug/27/attorney-general-evansville-women-arrested-crossin/)

If those here under illegal status are granted amnesty, they will be required to become citizens. Once they do, they should be able to vote! What's wrong with that?

Quote from: The Troll on September 02, 2010, 05:17:34 PM
  Illegal aliens can't vote, but they are a nice cheap source of labor for the Republican Business owners.  Like the large meat cutting companies that poison us and the large egg companies that poison us.

  We do need a super strong border protection against the criminals.  Shoot them and put them away.

what do you mean Illegal aliens can't vote?  where have you been?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/sep/23/20040923-104542-8488r/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/sep/23/20040923-104542-8488r/)

Beyond requiring applicants to sign a pledge on voter-registration forms affirming that they are U.S. citizens, there is no way to prevent the nation's estimated 8 million to 12 million illegal aliens from casting ballots in November, area elections officials said.Locally, only Virginia requires voters to provide their Social Security numbers, but the state does not require voters to show their Social Security cards."There is no way of checking"

The republicans will pay them to vote republican too!  :yes:

Quote from: Palehorse on September 02, 2010, 09:23:27 PM
The republicans will pay them to vote republican too!  :yes:

Uh, you'd better back up on that one PH.  There were a bunch of dems here in the city who were convicted of voter fraud a few years back. If that is the case they don't hold the honors all by themselves. 

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 02, 2010, 09:06:20 PM
what do you mean Illegal aliens can't vote?  where have you been?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/sep/23/20040923-104542-8488r/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/sep/23/20040923-104542-8488r/)

Beyond requiring applicants to sign a pledge on voter-registration forms affirming that they are U.S. citizens, there is no way to prevent the nation's estimated 8 million to 12 million illegal aliens from casting ballots in November, area elections officials said.Locally, only Virginia requires voters to provide their Social Security numbers, but the state does not require voters to show their Social Security cards."There is no way of checking"

  I use to be a precinct committeeman and I know how Republicans like to challenge everyone, to keep someone they think is a Democrat from voting.  Show me any case where they caught a illegal aliens voting.

Quote from: me on September 02, 2010, 10:01:24 PM
Uh, you'd better back up on that one PH.  There were a bunch of dems here in the city who were convicted of voter fraud a few years back. If that is the case they don't hold the honors all by themselves.

Why? Politicians have been allowing the dead to vote for decades!

Quote from: Palehorse on September 03, 2010, 07:12:00 AM
Why? Politicians have been allowing the dead to vote for decades!

  Ever seen one convited for voter fraud.  It's about a rare as conviting a CEO of fraud.

Quote from: The Troll on September 03, 2010, 07:39:46 AM
  Ever seen one convited for voter fraud.  It's about a rare as conviting a CEO of fraud.

In Chicago I have. . . not here though.

Quote from: me on September 02, 2010, 08:10:17 PM
And yes, if given amnesty the illegals will be citizens who will then be able to vote.

No, they would be resident aliens, who can't vote. Citizenship requires application and passing a test.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 02, 2010, 09:06:20 PM
what do you mean Illegal aliens can't vote?  where have you been?

Right here in Indiana. Where a government issued photo ID is required to vote.

http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2401.htm

Quote from: LOsborne on September 03, 2010, 07:59:16 AM
Right here in Indiana. Where a government issued photo ID is required to vote.

http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2401.htm (http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2401.htm)

and That just became a law two years ago, and the liberal courts are having a fit over it...and trying to appeal it....
There only a handful of states that require photo ID.

in some states a Utility BILL or a student ID is all that you have to have to vote.... :rolleyes:

A recent study released by the conservative think-tank the Heritage Foundation provides proof that illegal aliens and immigrants with green cards are committing rampant voter fraud in the United States.
Reports of ineligible persons registering to vote have raised concerns about state processes for verifying voter registration lists.
http://www.examiner.com/law-enforcement-in-national/voter-fraud-by-illegal-aliens-ignored-by-government-and-media (http://www.examiner.com/law-enforcement-in-national/voter-fraud-by-illegal-aliens-ignored-by-government-and-media)

http://blog.heritage.org/?p=41982 (http://blog.heritage.org/?p=41982)

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 03, 2010, 08:24:50 AM
and That just became a law two years ago, and the liberal courts are having a fit over it...and trying to appeal it....

Oh, that's right. Your Washington Times story was printed in 2004, and so bears very little relationship to present reality.

I haven't heard of any attempt to repeal the law recently. Have you?

I'll accept your Examiner source, even though it is over a year old, and the only source it cites is the Heritage foundation. However, your other source is a blog. We've talked about that before.

I'm a lot more concerned about the insecure and buggy voting machines, than about illegals trying to pass off phony ID to vote.

in some states a Utility BILL or a student ID is all that you have to have to vote.... (http://theunknownzone.us/smf/Smileys3/default/icon_rolleyes.gif)

http://www.ncsl.org/LegislaturesElections/ElectionsCampaigns/StateRequirementsforVoterID/tabid/16602/Default.aspx (http://www.ncsl.org/LegislaturesElections/ElectionsCampaigns/StateRequirementsforVoterID/tabid/16602/Default.aspx)

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 03, 2010, 08:24:50 AM

in some states a Utility BILL or a student ID is all that you have to have to vote....

I take it you believe there are a lot of illegals who have utilities in their own names, or school issued student ID which does not identify them as immigrants?

Quote from: LOsborne on September 03, 2010, 08:36:59 AM
I take it you believe there are a lot of illegals who have utilities in their own names, or school issued student ID which does not identify them as immigrants?

Illegal ID's are printed up for people everyday.

Quote from: LOsborne on September 03, 2010, 08:36:59 AM
I take it you believe there are a lot of illegals who have utilities in their own names, or school issued student ID which does not identify them as immigrants?

let's cut to the chase, do you believe that ilegal immigrants are NOT voting?

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 03, 2010, 09:58:19 AM
let's cut to the chase, do you believe that ilegal immigrants are NOT voting?

  More bullshit, smoke screen, more mirrors, more fear, keep the Sheeple.  The old and young dumbasses in the dark while the Predatory Rich Capitalist steal the middle class blind.  Presented to  you good people by the Hawk :chick: 

Quote from: The Troll on September 03, 2010, 11:04:57 AM
  More bullshit, smoke screen, more mirrors, more fear, keep the Sheeple.  The old and young dumbasses in the dark while the Predatory Rich Capitalist steal the middle class blind.  Presented to  you good people by the Hawk :chick: 

it was a simple question troll, you got to go off on a tangent EVERY time....do you believe that ilegal immigrants are NOT voting?...it is a yes or no question.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 03, 2010, 11:13:48 AM
it was a simple question troll, you got to go off on a tangent EVERY time....do you believe that ilegal immigrants are NOT voting?...it is a yes or no question.

  Hawk :chick:  This is not a black and white world, for me to answer no illegal aliens have ever voted would be silly.  But I will say that they are not voting in the huge numbers you say they are.  The few that vote would not be enough to change an election..  For you to ask a question is like a lawyer asking, Do you still beat you wife?

Quote from: me on September 03, 2010, 09:50:12 AM
Illegal ID's are printed up for people everyday.

Last big case we saw of that here in Indiana was being done by the BMV...the same people who would be issuing the required ID's anyway!

Quote from: LOsborne on September 03, 2010, 08:36:59 AM
I take it you believe there are a lot of illegals who have utilities in their own names, or school issued student ID which does not identify them as immigrants?

There are undocumented aliens who do have utility bills in their own names, we see them at the pantry every month, also school ids, since all you need for a school id is to be enrolled, no proof of citizenship.

Quote from: Anne on September 03, 2010, 03:28:27 PM
There are undocumented aliens who do have utility bills in their own names

Only one per (multi-family) household

Quote... also school ids, since all you need for a school id is to be enrolled, no proof of citizenship.

Those kids are too young to vote. Geeeeeeeeeeez.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 03, 2010, 09:58:19 AM
let's cut to the chase, do you believe that ilegal immigrants are NOT voting?

Yes. I believe illegal immigrants are NOT voting. They don't do anything to draw attention to themselves if they can help it.

But you can check it you want. Voter registration rolls are public information.

I do digress, but, my bigger point IS, IF they get amnesty by the democrats, who do you think THEY will rally around?...those who are going to continue to pass out entitlements...this whole "entitlement" is a crock, for the most part, but that is a subject for another day....

Quote from: LOsborne on September 03, 2010, 06:33:58 PM
Only one per (multi-family) household
Those kids are too young to vote. Geeeeeeeeeeez.

Not if they are 18. I don't know how many undocumented aliens vote, I know there are lots who have drivers licenses, utility bills in their names, ss numbers and who use government and private agencies.

You can't tell from voter registration lists who is illegal, you would have to go by if their name sounds foreign, that includes about 2/3 of the people listed.

Quote from: Anne on September 03, 2010, 07:53:06 PM
Not if they are 18. I don't know how many undocumented aliens vote, I know there are lots who have drivers licenses, utility bills in their names, ss numbers and who use government and private agencies.

You can't tell from voter registration lists who is illegal, you would have to go by if their name sounds foreign, that includes about 2/3 of the people listed.

Christ has always expressed concern about how the poor are treated. His teaching in Matthew 25:31–46 says that to mistreat a "stranger" is to mistreat him. To care for the stranger is not to condone everything the stranger has done. It is to treat the stranger with mercy and to do everything possible to aid our "strange" neighbors.

I'll take off-topic for 10, Alex. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Doc on September 04, 2010, 04:47:12 PM
Christ has always expressed concern about how the poor are treated. His teaching in Matthew 25:31–46 says that to mistreat a "stranger" is to mistreat him. To care for the stranger is not to condone everything the stranger has done. It is to treat the stranger with mercy and to do everything possible to aid our "strange" neighbors.

  I would love to see what you would do if an Illegal ilien family moved in to you back yard and set up a tent.  Dug a slit trench to shit in.  and hook out a cord to your electricity and hose up to you water and say.  "here we are, thanks for your good Christian Values.   :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :mad: :angry:  Let us :pray:  :pope:

Quote from: The Troll on September 06, 2010, 08:02:27 PM
  I would love to see what you would do if an Illegal ilien family moved in to you back yard and set up a tent.  Dug a slit trench to shit in.  and hook out a cord to your electricity and hose up to you water and say.  "here we are, thanks for your good Christian Values.   :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :mad: :angry:  Let us :pray:  :pope:

  WHEN RELIGION RULED THE WORLD, IT WAS CALLED THE DARK AGES.