?...what do you guys think?..
I think they are correct in what they are doing. I would venture to guess the only ones complaining about it are the illegals, who should have no voice in it anyway, and the "politically correct" crowd who are idiots. As far as calling it racial profiling if you're looking for Mexican illegals who else are you going to stop? There seems to be far too much Mexican drug gang activity to sit back and do nothing.
I think anyone in Indiana who looks like they are from Illinois, Iowa, or Ohio ought to be required to show their id to any police officer that thinks they might be from another state, whenever any officer requires them to do so. Then they should be shipped to Arizona and put right on the border.
I hope that was sarcastic. . . I am from Illinois! :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on April 26, 2010, 01:57:06 PM
I hope that was sarcastic. . . I am from Illinois! :biggrin:
well, you most certainly LOOK like an Illini... :razz:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 26, 2010, 02:07:21 PM
well, you most certainly LOOK like an Illini... :razz:
:spooked:
(http://collegesportsnation.com/iphone_wallpapers/illinois_fighting_illini/illinois_fighting_illini_iphone_wallpaper.jpg)
SORT OF...
Quote from: Palehorse on April 26, 2010, 01:57:06 PM
I hope that was sarcastic. . . I am from Illinois! :biggrin:
Makes about as much
sense nonsense.
Quote from: followsthewolf on April 26, 2010, 01:12:41 PM
I think anyone in Indiana who looks like they are from Illinois, Iowa, or Ohio ought to be required to show their id to any police officer that thinks they might be from another state, whenever any officer requires them to do so. Then they should be shipped to Arizona and put right on the border.
But we can legally travel from state to state so that is like comparing apples to oranges. Illegals are a different thing altogether, they are breaking the law just by being here without the proper papers, and Mexico would have no qualms about stopping or arresting an American if the situation were reversed.
Quote from: me on April 26, 2010, 04:09:49 PM
But we can legally travel from state to state so that is like comparing apples to oranges. Illegals are a different thing altogether, they are breaking the law just by being here without the proper papers, and Mexico would have no qualms about stopping or arresting an American if the situation were reversed.
IMHO this law was written too vaguely. Officers may stop and demand documentation of those they "suspect of being illegally in the US" but does not define how they may become suspicious of their status. The way it is written they can pretty much stop anyone they like and demand they prove their citizenship with 3 pieces of ID. WHO carries three pieces of ID around with them all of the time?
And before you even say it, "they cannot stop you because of race, sex, religion, etc."; EVERYBODY knows damned good and well that law enforcement will use this as a tool for which it is not intended. That is not to say they are all bad, but rather that the ones that are will abuse it above and beyond what they are already doing due to the vagueness of the law itself. In fact, even the law abiding officers will be sorely tempted to use it outside of its intended purpose because of this.
This thing is creating a gestapo squad waiting to be unleashed. . .
I cannot see how anyone in their right mind would be supportive of it. . .
Not really apples/oranges, me. How someone looks is subjective. Not everyone who looks foreign is. Think of all of the people who were born here and therefore are citizens who are going to be harassed as result of this new law. Believe it or not, there are people who've never seen the native country of their ancestors who look as if they stepped off the boat yesterday. Which BTW people from Mexico aren't the only ones who are in the country illegally. But everytime this discussion happens it quickly turns into a bash Mexican-fest.
Think of all the ways this law can be used to harass citizens under the cover of eliminating illegal immigration.
Quote from: Palehorse on April 26, 2010, 04:24:50 PM
IMHO this law was written too vaguely. Officers may stop and demand documentation of those they "suspect of being illegally in the US" but does not define how they may become suspicious of their status. The way it is written they can pretty much stop anyone they like and demand they prove their citizenship with 3 pieces of ID. WHO carries three pieces of ID around with them all of the time?
And before you even say it, "they cannot stop you because of race, sex, religion, etc."; EVERYBODY knows damned good and well that law enforcement will use this as a tool for which it is not intended. That is not to say they are all bad, but rather that the ones that are will abuse it above and beyond what they are already doing due to the vagueness of the law itself. In fact, even the law abiding officers will be sorely tempted to use it outside of its intended purpose because of this.
This thing is creating a gestapo squad waiting to be unleashed. . .
I cannot see how anyone in their right mind would be supportive of it. . .
The poll found "70% of likely voters in Arizona approve of the legislation...those people who live there KNOW of the violence and retorhic that has been going on....SOMETHING needs to happen...
Quote from: Palehorse on April 26, 2010, 04:24:50 PM
IMHO this law was written too vaguely. Officers may stop and demand documentation of those they "suspect of being illegally in the US" but does not define how they may become suspicious of their status. The way it is written they can pretty much stop anyone they like and demand they prove their citizenship with 3 pieces of ID. WHO carries three pieces of ID around with them all of the time?
And before you even say it, "they cannot stop you because of race, sex, religion, etc."; EVERYBODY knows damned good and well that law enforcement will use this as a tool for which it is not intended. That is not to say they are all bad, but rather that the ones that are will abuse it above and beyond what they are already doing due to the vagueness of the law itself. In fact, even the law abiding officers will be sorely tempted to use it outside of its intended purpose because of this.
This thing is creating a gestapo squad waiting to be unleashed. . .
I cannot see how anyone in their right mind would be supportive of it. . .
That was what I was trying to say. For example, in San Diego, law enforcement uses vagrancy as a way to "flush out" illegals and it's very obvious that they're doing so. You rarely, if ever, see them questioning one of the hundreds of people wandering around or laying on the sidewalk, who are obviously homeless, but you will see them walk up to a group of people and request ID. It happened to a group that I was with. I didn't have ID because we were riding bikes and I honestly didn't think to carry it. The officer checked the ID of two people who happen to "look" Mexican. We had someone from the Philippines, Korea and a Canadian native in our group and everyone else got out their IDs, but he didn't look at them. I was ready to explain that I didn't bring my ID and accept a fine, but he didn't even look at me. Soooo, since it was obvious that we were all together, we looked less vagrant than the other two? :no:
Quote from: me on April 26, 2010, 04:09:49 PM
But we can legally travel from state to state so that is like comparing apples to oranges. Illegals are a different thing altogether, they are breaking the law just by being here without the proper papers, and Mexico would have no qualms about stopping or arresting an American if the situation were reversed.
That is NOT the point.
The point is: WHAT DOES AN ILLEGAL ALIEN LOOK LIKE??
And, before you get all huffy about the profiling debate, think about this ----
How many American citizens will be stopped and required to produce papers because they "look like" an illegal alien?
Just because YOU don't look like you are of Asian, Mexican, African, etc. descent, and YOU won't be stopped countless times to prove you are here legally, you really don't give a crap if someone else gets nailed 4 or 5 times a day, do you?
well, something has got to be done...and do you know a better way?..........I'm not being a smart arse...just a serious question....I think some common sense has got to be in play...a little old white lady is probably not a threat, but a gang of hispanic folks very well could be....do you stop both the be politically correct or do you do what you are trained to do....these cops are trained into how to profile...and even though it honestly sucks for some folks, there has got to a starting point to stop the madness....
I know it does not give the cops a right to be pricks to anybody they think is an immigrant, but they CAN be polite and ask to see proper ID....and those who live in that area should oblige and be prepared to have proper ID....I cannot think of a better way to achieve this goal....can you?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 26, 2010, 04:59:13 PM
well, something has got to be done...and do you know a better way?..........I'm not being a smart arse...just a serious question....I think some common sense has got to be in play...a little old white lady is probably not a threat, but a gang of hispanic folks very well could be....do you stop both the be politically correct or do you do what you are trained to do....these cops are trained into how to profile...and even though it honestly sucks for some folks, there has got to a starting point to stop the madness....
I know it does not give the cops a right to be pricks to anybody they think is an immigrant, but they CAN be polite and ask to see proper ID....and those who live in that area should oblige and be prepared to have proper ID....I cannot think of a better way to achieve this goal....can you?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 26, 2010, 04:41:24 PM
The poll found "70% of likely voters in Arizona approve of the legislation...those people who live there KNOW of the violence and retorhic that has been going on....SOMETHING needs to happen...
Interesting that in this case you want to "ram the law through" but when it comes to health care reform you endorse "taking our time and getting it right". . . Changing horses are yah? :razz:
This law enables law enforcement to act in ways that will be very similar to Nazi Germany. You think going to the BMV is bad? What happens when they pass a similar law here and we have to carry around all that same documentation where ever we go? Hell a lot of people here in Indiana have a hard time coming up with the ID required now at the BMV.
Yeah, once a day every day and you'll get your back up when it goes on constantly. And the problem is you'll have to do it all of the time, several times a day.
Another point, what about when some jack booted thug points a weapon at you and robs you, taking all of that ID? Whatcha gonna do when he then opens up a bunch of lines of credit and puts you on the hook for 100 grand or so? The fact is, you go around carrying all that ID and when you are robbed your identification can also be assumed.
Better way? Yeah. Enforce the federal laws already on the books, close the loop-holes, and start getting the job done. But then, congress cannot even agree on what kind of toilet paper to use so how are we going to expect them to actually do something that needs doing?
The answer is not to resurrect Nazi Germany here in the United States! :no:
Quote from: followsthewolf on April 26, 2010, 04:50:14 PM
That is NOT the point.
The point is: WHAT DOES AN ILLEGAL ALIEN LOOK LIKE??
And, before you get all huffy about the profiling debate, think about this ----
How many American citizens will be stopped and required to produce papers because they "look like" an illegal alien?
Just because YOU don't look like you are of Asian, Mexican, African, etc. descent, and YOU won't be stopped countless times to prove you are here legally, you really don't give a crap if someone else gets nailed 4 or 5 times a day, do you?
Exactly what I was referring to when I stated the law was too vague and broadly written. :yes:
Hell, I lay out in the sun long enough I start looking like someone from the middle east. :spooked:
What happens when I am doing my Abu imitation when law enforcement passes by? I get detained and have to produce my "papers"! :mad:
We have a crime watch group in our neighborhood and last year we talked about "undocumentated" persons. We were told by the police even if they arrest someone, (domestic violence, drunk driving, jaywalking,reckless driving, anything at all) and even if they do not speak english, they can not ask them for proof they are here legally and they have to contact the appropriate embassy if they are charged with a crime. Between that and supplying translators it costs a lot of money. IMO this isn't right, if I were arrest, I have to prove where I live and show a valid piece of identification, if I want to get out of jail, that is. Seems like we are coming out on the short end of the stick. I don't think these things have changed in the last year.
Quote from: Anne on April 26, 2010, 05:39:21 PM
We have a crime watch group in our neighborhood and last year we talked about "undocumentated" persons. We were told by the police even if they arrest someone, (domestic violence, drunk driving, jaywalking,reckless driving, anything at all) and even if they do not speak english, they can not ask them for proof they are here legally and they have to contact the appropriate embassy if they are charged with a crime. Between that and supplying translators it costs a lot of money. IMO this isn't right, if I were arrest, I have to prove where I live and show a valid piece of identification, if I want to get out of jail, that is. Seems like we are coming out on the short end of the stick. I don't think these things have changed in the last year.
All they have to do is contact the local immigration office. FACT. They will take it from there.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 26, 2010, 04:59:13 PM
well, something has got to be done...and do you know a better way?..........I'm not being a smart arse...just a serious question....I think some common sense has got to be in play...a little old white lady is probably not a threat, but a gang of hispanic folks very well could be....do you stop both the be politically correct or do you do what you are trained to do....these cops are trained into how to profile...and even though it honestly sucks for some folks, there has got to a starting point to stop the madness....
I know it does not give the cops a right to be pricks to anybody they think is an immigrant, but they CAN be polite and ask to see proper ID....and those who live in that area should oblige and be prepared to have proper ID....I cannot think of a better way to achieve this goal....can you?
Nothing like feeling like an unwelcome guest in your own home.
Why not make it less finacially advantageous for those people importing and exporting humans by making the legal immigration process itself less difficult? and why not enforce the penalties which are already in place for people who employ non-citizens?
Quote from: Palehorse on April 26, 2010, 05:46:29 PM
All they have to do is contact the local immigration office. FACT. They will take it from there.
All I know is there are lots and lots of non english speaking immigrants here and the police seem to think it is a problem that they can't ask if they have papers even after they are picked up.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 26, 2010, 06:42:18 PM
Nothing like feeling like an unwelcome guest in your own home.
And the people in Arizona are feeling unsafe in their own homes because of the illegal immigrant crime.
Quote from: Anne on April 26, 2010, 07:00:14 PM
All I know is there are lots and lots of non english speaking immigrants here and the police seem to think it is a problem that they can't ask if they have papers even after they are picked up.
Again, all they have to do is inquire with immigration surrounding their status. It is 100% legal and in fact is routine when charged with an offense.
Quote from: me on April 26, 2010, 08:24:55 PM
And the people in Arizona are feeling unsafe in their own homes because of the illegal immigrant crime.
That's propaganda. I've seen just as many citizens in the media who consider this law overzealous and discriminatory. It's nothing more than histrionics and puffery, and every one of those citizens who are scared can register for a concealed carry permit at their local law enforcement agency. Then they can legally plug those supposed criminals when they are threatened.
over 70% of the people in AZ support this bill, but people who do not live there KNOW what is best for them?... :rolleyes:
I say it is HIGH time we close down the borders....with military. We can fix the drip until you stop the leak.
Remember ONE thing, they are called Illegal Immigrants for a reason.....THEY are breaking the law.
Let's kill 'em all, and let gawd sort 'em out.
I remember that from somewhere back in the rotting jungle of my mind.
Quote from: followsthewolf on April 27, 2010, 08:31:18 AM
Let's kill 'em all, and let gawd sort 'em out.
I remember that from somewhere back in the rotting jungle of my mind.
no lets just let them break our laws, let them do what they want....it is okay if they want to ignore our laws, we don't want to "offend" someone...maybe we should have a big party for them....and sing kumbaya...
how dare the people of Arizona.....they should just shut up and IF they don't like what is going on they should just leave, RIGHT FTW?
Naw.
Ah'm gonna take muh Bushmaster an' hole muh' self up an' pik off 'em 'ere Messikins as they comes 'cross tha border.
Quote from: followsthewolf on April 27, 2010, 09:22:01 AM
Naw.
Ah'm gonna take muh Bushmaster an' hole muh' self up an' pik off 'em 'ere Messikins as they comes 'cross tha border.
nice answer... :rolleyes:
Keeps 'em in there place, right?
Quote from: followsthewolf on April 27, 2010, 09:24:01 AM
Keeps 'em in there place, right?
THEIR Place is NOT here in the U.S.....(that is why they are called 'Illegal'...) why don't they do it like other immigrants, and go by OUR laws?
Nah.
Dead's better.
That way, they don't come back.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2010, 08:27:17 AM
over 70% of the people in AZ support this bill, but people who do not live there KNOW what is best for them?... :rolleyes:
I say it is HIGH time we close down the borders....with military. We can fix the drip until you stop the leak.
Remember ONE thing, they are called Illegal Immigrants for a reason.....THEY are breaking the law.
More hysterical and reactionary responses. Deploying an already strained military toward our borders may be a band aid worth utilizing, but just how long do you think it will take before Mexico considers such action aggressive and responds in kind? And then how long do you think it'll take for some gung ho individuals on both sides to start firing at one another and incite a declaration of a new Mexican war? That situation would get out of control in a damned hurry!
Does something need to be done about this? Hell yes it does. But actions that evoke Nazi Germany are not the solution and will only serve to inflame an already bad situation.
"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
I guess these are just words on a plaque and not a mission statement or vision our country held in the highest esteem. . .
Talk is cheap...
close the damn borders....there is NO other way to stop the mess.....it does NOT have to be violent.
Othere countries does it....it is out of control. Maybe we need to expedite a system to make immigrants a citizen, or an easier solution to get a green card....but, we are being disrespected and taken advantage of...and it is costing us billions of dollars we do not have....
Arizona is taking innitiative...and I support them for it....It is THEIR state....and the fed gov is NOT in a big hurry to do anything about it....except may an amnesty plan, and THAT is NOT a good solution.
"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Like I said, I guess these are just words on a plaque and not a mission statement or vision our country held in the highest esteem. . .
Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
NOW those are some interesting words....
FROM CNN's Jack Cafferty:
So Arizona passes a tough law against illegal immigration and suddenly they get Washington's attention.
One poll finds 70 percent of Arizona voters support the new law... hey, maybe we better do something too. So like the lemmings they are when they smell a chance to score political points... and some of them need a lot of help with the midterms approaching - there is talk now of rushing immigration reform through Congress.
President Obama called the Arizona law "misguided." What is misguided, Mr. President, is the federal government's refusal to enforce the laws already on the books. Read the Arizona law... parts of it are word-for-word the same as the federal laws - which continue to be ignored.Now we'll hear all sorts of blathering from our Washington gerbils about the need for a new federal law.
There will be press conferences, interviews, committee hearings, draft legislation, polling... all the usual carnival acts that accompany any hot-button issue in Washington, DC.Instead of simply closing the borders and enforcing the existing law so that they could turn their attention to something like the national debt and the fact that the country is bankrupt, we will get this freak show.Washington's position on illegal immigration is dishonest from the top down.
No enforcement. No border security. Just pandering to the Hispanic voters and the corporations that hire the illegals.
But when one of our states that is being ravaged by the presence of 460,000 illegal aliens inside its borders does something about it, the president says that's "misguided."
What a shame.
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/ (http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/)
I know what that statue says and what it means and it does not mean come on over and take advantage of us which is what is happening. It means come legally, like many others have done, and you will have an opportunity to better yourself free of the oppressive government and taxes you are choosing to leave. The way I see it though is once this administration gets done there will no longer be any attraction for people to immigrate to the US because we will all be equally depressed and poor.
Quote from: Palehorse on April 27, 2010, 10:26:20 AM
"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Like I said, I guess these are just words on a plaque and not a mission statement or vision our country held in the highest esteem. . .
Quote from: me on April 27, 2010, 12:10:45 PM
I know what that statue says and what it means and it does not mean come on over and take advantage of us which is what is happening. It means come legally, like many others have done, and you will have an opportunity to better yourself free of the oppressive government and taxes you are choosing to leave. The way I see it though is once this administration gets done there will no longer be any attraction for people to immigrate to the US because we will all be equally depressed and poor.
Have you personally
ever looked into what an individual wanting to legally immigrate to the US has to go through to achieve citizenship? I have, and I know several who ran the gauntlet to achieve it.
I would bet over 90% of current American citizens would be
unable to pass the test!
Quote from: Palehorse on April 27, 2010, 02:16:31 PM
Have you personally ever looked into what an individual wanting to legally immigrate to the US has to go through to achieve citizenship? I have, and I know several who ran the gauntlet to achieve it.
I would bet over 90% of current American citizens would be unable to pass the test!
And that has what to do with what is going on now? Yes, there are some good illegals but the bad ones are making it hard on them and us and something needs to be done now not later. They need to learn our language not us learn theirs and they need to go by our rules not have us change ours to suit them. Would you let someone come into your house and change your rules to suit themselves just to not make waves and be accommodating?
Quote from: Palehorse on April 27, 2010, 02:16:31 PM
Have you personally ever looked into what an individual wanting to legally immigrate to the US has to go through to achieve citizenship? I have, and I know several who ran the gauntlet to achieve it.
I would bet over 90% of current American citizens would be unable to pass the test!
we had 1,046,539 persons that were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008...
but that has NOTHING to do with the problem we now face....and it IS a problem. AZ, is trying to fix it....what was being done (which was nothing)...was not fixing it.....they are implementing laws that was basicly set forth by our fed gov...I applaud them.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2010, 02:26:48 PM
we had 1,046,539 persons that were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008...
but that has NOTHING to do with the problem we now face....and it IS a problem. AZ, is trying to fix it....what was being done (which was nothing)...was not fixing it.....they are implementing laws that was basicly set forth by our fed gov...I applaud them.
Quote from: me on April 27, 2010, 02:22:13 PM
And that has what to do with what is going on now? Yes, there are some good illegals but the bad ones are making it hard on them and us and something needs to be done now not later. They need to learn our language not us learn theirs and they need to go by our rules not have us change ours to suit them. Would you let someone come into your house and change your rules to suit themselves just to not make waves and be accommodating?
I can say the same things surrounding health care reform; what was being done? Nothing. . . .
Again, I say these supposed "facts and statistics" are rooted in racially motivated initiatives and are being inflated due to hysteria. While I agree "something has to be done" why the importance of
this issue trumps the dying and suffering needlessly ,
current American citizens within your personal agenda amazes me. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on April 27, 2010, 02:35:33 PM
I can say the same things surrounding health care reform; what was being done? Nothing. . . .
Again, I say these supposed "facts and statistics" are rooted in racially motivated initiatives and are being inflated due to hysteria. While I agree "something has to be done" why the importance of this issue trumps the dying and suffering needlessly , current American citizens within your personal agenda amazes me. . .
the only reason this is even being discussed is because liberals are having a fit because AZ has passed a law to take care of this problem that has been ignored for too long...
and fixing THIS problem will aid in the effort of our Health Care problem.....and please tell me WHAT personal agenda I have that 'amazes' you?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2010, 02:49:25 PM
the only reason this is even being discussed is because liberals are having a fit because AZ has passed a law to take care of this problem that has been ignored for too long...
AZ has done nothing but initiate a knee jerk reaction that will only exacerbate the problem and subject American citizens to draconian treatment over something they had nothing to do with.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2010, 02:49:25 PM
and fixing THIS problem will aid in the effort of our Health Care problem.....and please tell me WHAT personal agenda I have that 'amazes' you?
Based upon your stated positions within both of these issues, it appears you are more concerned with illegal aliens than you are your fellow Americans who cannot afford health care or cannot obtain health care through no fault of their own.
And you tell me how one states knee jerk reaction is going to "fix" the national health care problems?
First of all, I resent your statement that I "appear" that I am more concerned with illegal aliens than I am my fellow Americans who cannot afford health care...simply because I did NOT support this last bill that was trillion of dollars and nobody knew what all the hell was in it?
AZ's "knee jerk" reaction is simply doing word-for-word what the federal law said we was SUPPOSED to do...but the feds was NOT doing it...so, they are taking into their own hands...give it time and lets see how exacerbated this problem gets...I can understand why YOU are not overly worried about Illegal Immigrants living here in Indiana, but AZ, is having REAL problems that you seem to think is being politically exaggerated...well, like I have said before, 70% of AZ citizens are in favor of this, but Obama seems to know better, like he always thinks he does....
and AZ, may be starting a soluton that other states may follow in line with....and reducing the number of Illegal Immigrants flooding our emergency rooms, with the cost being passed on to the "tax-paying" CITIZENS (HERE LEGALLY).
So do illegals from polans get I.D. ed?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2010, 03:09:08 PM
First of all, I resent your statement that I "appear" that I am more concerned with illegal aliens than I am my fellow Americans who cannot afford health care...simply because I did NOT support this last bill that was trillion of dollars and nobody knew what all the hell was in it?
AZ's "knee jerk" reaction is simply doing word-for-word what the federal law said we was SUPPOSED to do...but the feds was NOT doing it...so, they are taking into their own hands...give it time and lets see how exacerbated this problem gets...I can understand why YOU are not overly worried about Illegal Immigrants living here in Indiana, but AZ, is having REAL problems that you seem to think is being politically exaggerated...well, like I have said before, 70% of AZ citizens are in favor of this, but Obama seems to know better, like he always thinks he does....
and AZ, may be starting a soluton that other states may follow in line with....and reducing the number of Illegal Immigrants flooding our emergency rooms, with the cost being passed on to the "tax-paying" CITIZENS (HERE LEGALLY).
So its okay to spend trillions on a fence and manpower to close our borders but not take care of our fellow Americans?
Quote from: Palehorse on April 27, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
So its okay to spend trillions on a fence and manpower to close our borders but not take care of our fellow Americans?
who said it would cost trillions?...
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2010, 10:54:01 AM
FROM CNN's Jack Cafferty:
So Arizona passes a tough law against illegal immigration and suddenly they get Washington's attention.
One poll finds 70 percent of Arizona voters support the new law... hey, maybe we better do something too. So like the lemmings they are when they smell a chance to score political points... and some of them need a lot of help with the midterms approaching - there is talk now of rushing immigration reform through Congress.
President Obama called the Arizona law "misguided." What is misguided, Mr. President, is the federal government's refusal to enforce the laws already on the books. Read the Arizona law... parts of it are word-for-word the same as the federal laws - which continue to be ignored.Now we'll hear all sorts of blathering from our Washington gerbils about the need for a new federal law.
There will be press conferences, interviews, committee hearings, draft legislation, polling... all the usual carnival acts that accompany any hot-button issue in Washington, DC.Instead of simply closing the borders and enforcing the existing law so that they could turn their attention to something like the national debt and the fact that the country is bankrupt, we will get this freak show.Washington's position on illegal immigration is dishonest from the top down.
No enforcement. No border security. Just pandering to the Hispanic voters and the corporations that hire the illegals.
But when one of our states that is being ravaged by the presence of 460,000 illegal aliens inside its borders does something about it, the president says that's "misguided."
What a shame.
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/ (http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2010, 10:40:58 AM
Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
NOW those are some interesting words....
So no one can tell me what an illegal alien looks like (unless it's a Klingon, etc.).
And you are prepared to be stopped every day endlessly, and produce your "papers" every day endlessly, and explain the same old, same old every day, endlessly?
Quote from: followsthewolf on April 27, 2010, 04:43:18 PM
So no one can tell me what an illegal alien looks like (unless it's a Klingon, etc.).
And you are prepared to be stopped every day endlessly, and produce your "papers" every day endlessly, and explain the same old, same old every day, endlessly?
and you are basing this logic on WHAT?
Unless you look like a Hispanic person and live in Arizona, you wouldn't have to worry about it.
Unless, of course, your heritage ethnic group or race happened to live right across the border, were dirt poor, and knew the promised land was a fence away.
Now, if you are a citizen of the US, but don't "look like" one (to the majority of white, European background Americans) you might just be a target, just like a Middle Eastern legal immigrant.
As to the logic --
if I stand in the road, it is logical to assume I will, fairly soon, be hit by a vehicle. The more vehicles, the more likely it will happen. In Arizona, wouldn't you think the number of people of Hispanic or Latin origin would be fairly high? Safe to assume, then, that you would be the subject of severe scrutiny?
Remember how seat belt laws used to be a secondary offense? How about cell phone use/driving laws?
Pretty obvious, HH, that you fit very nicely into the background and wouldn't and haven't been the subject of excessive examination for any kind of legal violations.
A friend of mine, who happens to be from Colombia, and is a professor at UConn doesn't happen to be as fortunate, even though he is an American citizen. I could write you a litany of stop-and-frisk, "wrong neighborhood," and a hundred other "show me some ID" incidents.
Anecdotal evidence? Yes.
Illogical? No.
Reality? Absolutely.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2010, 04:07:19 PM
who said it would cost trillions?...
It will, between the fence construction, the headcount increases, and purchase and installation of technology necessary to monitor the entire boarder-land of this country. Don't forget it isn't just the Mexican border, and there is a lot of sea territory that will need to be monitored as well. Then there's the Canadian borderland. . .
It'll cost me 10 grand to fence in my property, how much you think its going to cost for the 12 foot high fences and razor wire they'll need to put up over thousands of miles of our borderland??? That fence alone will be trillions. . . and then there will be the maintenance that will be necessary to repair the sections they cut out within unmanned areas. . .
Quote from: followsthewolf on April 27, 2010, 05:33:36 PM
Unless you look like a Hispanic person and live in Arizona, you wouldn't have to worry about it.
Unless, of course, your heritage ethnic group or race happened to live right across the border, were dirt poor, and knew the promised land was a fence away.
Now, if you are a citizen of the US, but don't "look like" one (to the majority of white, European background Americans) you might just be a target, just like a Middle Eastern legal immigrant.
As to the logic --
if I stand in the road, it is logical to assume I will, fairly soon, be hit by a vehicle. The more vehicles, the more likely it will happen. In Arizona, wouldn't you think the number of people of Hispanic or Latin origin would be fairly high? Safe to assume, then, that you would be the subject of severe scrutiny?
Remember how seat belt laws used to be a secondary offense? How about cell phone use/driving laws?
Pretty obvious, HH, that you fit very nicely into the background and wouldn't and haven't been the subject of excessive examination for any kind of legal violations.
A friend of mine, who happens to be from Colombia, and is a professor at UConn doesn't happen to be as fortunate, even though he is an American citizen. I could write you a litany of stop-and-frisk, "wrong neighborhood," and a hundred other "show me some ID" incidents.
Anecdotal evidence? Yes.
Illogical? No.
Reality? Absolutely.
Exactly. I have a SIL who was born iin the US and has lived here his whole life, but he is Mexican and works for the Mexican consulate in Texas. I have no doubt he'd be subjected to the same treatment as your friend should this draconian law be allowed to be implemented. :mad:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/systems/mexico-wall.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/systems/mexico-wall.htm)
QUOTE
. . .
But Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said a wall running the length of a border would cost too much. A 2,000 mile state-of-the-art border fence has been estimated to cost between four and eight billion dollars.. . .
END QUOTE
And that would just be the Mexican border. . .
QUOTE
. . .On 14 December 2005 Mexican President Vicente Fox denounced as "disgraceful and shameful" a proposal to build a high-tech wall on the US-Mexico border to stop illegal immigrants. Media reports on 21 December 2005 quoted Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez as saying, " Mexico is not going to bear, it is not going to permit, and it will not allow a stupid thing like this wall.". . .END QUOTE
And you think my statement surrounding the erection of a barrier between the US and Mexico resulting in the initiation of new Mexican-American war was just something I pulled out of my ass?
Then again, where there is a will there is a way, and you think a fence or wall is going to stop them????
QUOTE
. . .Tunnel passages across an international border into the United States have become a real problem. There are 40 such tunnels that have been discovered since 9/11, and the great bulk of them are on the southern border. Large-scale smuggling of drugs, weapons, and immigrants takes place today through these tunnels. One tunnel running from San Diego to Tijuana was marked by inordinate sophistication. It was a half mile long. It went 60 to 80 feet deep, 8 feet tall. It had a concrete floor. It was wired for electricity. It had drainage. At one end, 300 pounds of marijuana were found, and at the other end, 300 pounds of marijuana. What was interesting is that the California entry into the tunnel was a very modern warehouse, a huge warehouse compartmented but empty and kept empty for a year. In one office there was a hatch in the floor. It looked much like the hatch which Saddam had secreted himself in. But lifting that hatch disclosed a very sophisticated tunnel. It went under other buildings all the way across the double fence into Mexico and up in Mexico in a building as well.. . .END QUOTE
Nope. They just morph into tunnel rats. . .
And then there's this little fiasco. . .
QUOTE
. . .DHS's U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) contractor, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE), had completed about 73 miles of primary SBI fencing costing approximately $198 million as of September 30, 2007, and about 215 miles of fencing costing about $625 million as of October 31, 2008. Seventy-one of the miles completed as of September 30, 2007, were pedestrian fencing completed at costs ranging from $400,000 to $4.8 million per mile and averaging $2.8 million per mile. CBP had also finished about 2 miles of vehicle fencing at a cost of $2.8 million. Pedestrian fencing accounted for 140 of the miles that CBP had completed as of October 31, 2008, with costs ranging from $400,000 to $15.1 million per mile for an average of $3.9 million per mile. Seventy-five of the miles were vehicle fencing and costs ranged from $200,000 to $1.8 million per mile, averaging $1.0 million per mile. The per mile costs to build the fencing varied considerably because of the type of fencing, topography, materials used, land acquisition costs, and labor costs, among other things.. . . END QUOTE
Imagine how much it is going to cost to fence in the border with Canada too! :spooked: :rolleyes:
Uh PH, I don't believe the people from Canada are coming over here with drug gangs and killing people along the border. They also are going through the proper channels to live here.
Quote from: me on April 27, 2010, 06:53:03 PM
Uh PH, I don't believe the people from Canada are coming over here with drug gangs and killing people along the border. They also are going through the proper channels to live here.
AHEM. It is
documented fact that a number of the 9/11 terrorists came into this country via that very border! So, unless we are going to just wait for that to happen again, which surely it already has, we have to include ALL borders.
What about Florida? Think they won't risk the Gulf to get here? Cubans have and do.
By the way, that fence you are screaming for in AZ, it's pretty much in place already. . . so what good is it doing?
http://cbp.dhs.gov/linkhandler/cgov/newsroom/highlights/fence_map.ctt/fence_map.pdf (http://cbp.dhs.gov/linkhandler/cgov/newsroom/highlights/fence_map.ctt/fence_map.pdf)
Or maybe its just Mexicans you people have a problem with???
Well good grief, PH. Doncha know that the only dangerous immigrants are the Mexicans? "Those people" are all really dangerous murderous drug-crazed lazy welfare recipient freeloaders who illegally vote for democrats! They are the cause of the moral decline of the US and if we could just get rid of "those people" all crime, drugs and democrats would go with them.
Moonglow raises a key component in all of this :
Quote from: Moonglow on Today at 03:24:38 PM
So do illegals from poland get I.D. ed?
What about the Poles, Serbs, Croats, Russians, Africans, blah, blah, blah; all of them here illegally as well. Think those cops will stop and question anyone who is not brown skinned? I doubt it. . . This will end up being a racial initiative against Mexican / Hispanics period. . . And that is WRONG on so many levels.
As followthewolf has been saying from the onset; How does a law enforcement officer tell who is here illegally? What are the criteria for determination of, and validating an officer's "duty" to detain anyone until they can prove citizenship?
Answer: There is no way and so they'll stop everyone.
(http://tenpercent.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/papers1.jpeg)
Give me your papers!
Ok what ever. I guess that means they can just run roughshod over the residence of Arizona and laugh at us for being so "politically correct" then. I guess that also means from now on when a description is given of someone who robs a bank or commits a murder that the cops should just stop everyone in the area rather than the people who's descriptions might match 'cause that would be profiling no matter what the description. Oh no wait, better yet they shouldn't stop anyone because the people were just "expressing" themselves and had a right to do so 'cause they had a bad childhood. :rolleyes:
Quote from: me on April 27, 2010, 10:52:03 PM
Ok what ever. I guess that means they can just run roughshod over the residence of Arizona and laugh at us for being so "politically correct" then. I guess that also means from now on when a description is given of someone who robs a bank or commits a murder that the cops should just stop everyone in the area rather than the people who's descriptions might match 'cause that would be profiling no matter what the description. Oh no wait, better yet they shouldn't stop anyone because the people were just "expressing" themselves and had a right to do so 'cause they had a bad childhood. :rolleyes:
Just what I expected. . . more reactionary and emotional drivel. . .None responsive to boot.
Quote from: Palehorse on April 27, 2010, 10:54:17 PM
Just what I expected. . . more reactionary and emotional drivel. . .None responsive to boot.
But ya'll keep bringing things into it that aren't there. The problem exists with the Mexican illegals so who else are they supposed to be checking?
where they are earning a living.
Someone earlier in this topic mentioned something about the police saying they cannot run the immigration status of law breakers; that is nothing but pure horse manure. The fact is if ANYONE breaks the laws of this land, no matter how minor the infraction, law enforcement officers can, and many do, run the lawbreaker's name through immigration and obtain their status.
In the case of false identification they then have cause to hold the individual until immigration can resolve the question. This is especially so within the border states, because immigration maintains a higher presence there; but it is true nationwide.
The ones that "say" they cannot are only making that statement because it creates a substantial amount of additional work for them. IF they are serious about controlling illegal alien status, they'll create positions wherein the officers main duty is to investigate and liaison with immigration officials.
Quote from: me on April 27, 2010, 10:59:44 PM
But ya'll keep bringing things into it that aren't there. The problem exists with the Mexican illegals so who else are they supposed to be checking?
You say that as if the status "illegal alien" applies only to those of hispanic descent, and nothing could be further from the truth.
Estimated Illegal Aliens in the US and Country of Origin (1996)
1. Mexico 2,700,000.
2. El Salvador 335,000
3. Guatemala 165,000
4. Canada 120,000 (OOPS there goes that argument about canadians not being a problem)
5. Haiti 105,000
. . .
10 Poland 70,000
Granted, this report is 14 years old, but it demonstrates that it is NOT just hispanics or Mexicans who are responsible for the problem, and certainly validates the extreme monitoring of
all borders and not just those with Mexico. And oh, btw, stats I have seen indicate that
50% of ARIZONA companies employ illegal aliens.
So why aren't they enforcing the laws already on the books instead of creating draconian laws?http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/illegal.pdf (http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/illegal.pdf) If youj care to read the entire report.
All I see is civil lawsuits that the state of Arizona will have to pay for racial profiling, even if the plaintiffs are illegals.
So, I guess your guys idea is lets do nothing and shut our eyes....
the bottom line is...........I know for a fact, the time always shines the truth on things....
we will see, in a mater of time...what the right answer is or should have been.....
I will tell you one thing....I am extremely proud to be an American, who happens to be Conservative, and not ashamed that I am White or a Christian.....I am sick and tired of being demonized for being so...and I am proudly going stand for those conservative men and women who are in Washington, standing up for the constitution, and trying to restore this great nation.
with that said,
I am out for a few days....
Hank
And I suppose, based on Henry and "me's" comments that tunnel vision is a mentally debilitating disease. "Why, if we can't profile then huff puff then all will be lost!!!" :rolleyes;
Moonglow brings up the point that PH and myself mentioned earlier.
There are other ways to deal with illegal immigration.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Except if you are from Mexico. You don't count! :rolleyes:
And now the state of Indiana has some doofus, Sen. Mike Delph, R-Carmel, saying he is going to introduce a bill to enact a similar law to that of Arizona here in Indiana! WTH is wrong with this idiot?!
California has already started boycotting Arizona, refusing to do any business with them and enter into any contracts; to the tune of some 53 million dollars being lost by businesses and the state of Arizona over this crap. Should other states follow suit and Indiana pass a similar law, we might as well roll out the razor wire and electric fences at the state line.
This is a HUGE waste of state revenue and time, all of which could be better utilized in figuring out solutions for the growing list of problems this state and its citizens are having to endure! :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:
Quote from: Palehorse on May 14, 2010, 08:07:38 AM
California has already started boycotting Arizona, refusing to do any business with them and enter into any contracts; to the tune of some 53 million dollars being lost by businesses and the state of Arizona over this crap.
Oops. A giggle escaped there. I mean, California is broke. Is their boycott really all that effective? Is Arizona going to weep and carry-on because California refuses to load them down with even more bad debts Arizona won't have a hope in hell of collecting?
Quote from: LOsborne on May 14, 2010, 08:19:19 AM
Oops. A giggle escaped there. I mean, California is broke. Is their boycott really all that effective? Is Arizona going to weep and carry-on because California refuses to load them down with even more bad debts Arizona won't have a hope in hell of collecting?
It is 53 million the state of Arizona is going to have to obtain elsewhere. Maybe Texas or New Mexico has an extra 53 million in services and contracts they are willing to toss them; unless they too decide to join Cali. . .
Besides, once the Napa Valley of Weed opens next year, Cali is going to be flush with cash generated via taxation of the stuff, and the rest of the country will be chasing hispanics and selling off capital to fund the effort. :rolleyes:
Now. lets not bury the real issue here either: INDIANA is actually going to consider enacting a similar law? WTF is wrong with this state????
*****Correction: It is the City of LA that is enacting the boycott and it amounts to 56 million in contracts and tourism losses. . .
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 28, 2010, 09:04:44 AM
And I suppose, based on Henry and "me's" comments that tunnel vision is a mentally debilitating disease. "Why, if we can't profile then huff puff then all will be lost!!!" :rolleyes;
Moonglow brings up the point that PH and myself mentioned earlier.
There are other ways to deal with illegal immigration.
name them
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 14, 2010, 08:38:51 AM
name them
:music1: R-E-A-D-I-N-G it's good for you and me... :music1:
I made a couple suggestions practically right off the bat in this thread. You were so busy defending Arizona's right to terrorize and harrass citizens that you apparently overlooked my post.
Are up that short-sighted that you think this is the ONLY way? or that it's even a good idea? If you answered yes to either of those questions, then you're obviously full of :poop:
Are you living there? Did you read the bill that was passed? Do you know for a fact they will be terrorizing and harassing citizens? What is it about illegal you don't understand?
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 09:22:11 AM
Are you living there?
No and neither are you, but you seem to assume a position of knowing more than the rest of us based upon the kool aid you've been slurping up from the media.
Both of us live in Indiana and now the idiots we elected are talking about floating a similar law here. Whats your validation for that piece of crap legislation?
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 09:22:11 AM
Did you read the bill that was passed?
I doubt you did. . . :rolleyes:
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 09:22:11 AM
Do you know for a fact they will be terrorizing and harassing citizens?
Who are you referring to when you say "they". The police?
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 09:22:11 AM
What is it about illegal you don't understand?
What is it about the constitution that you do not understand?
Exactly! Thanks for taking care of my light work, PH :biggrin:
Just one thing: The bill gives them the right to terrorize and harass citizens. It doesn't matter that they're a citizen, just that they "look" a certain way which is subjective and entirely up to the person who decides to terrorize and harrass.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on May 14, 2010, 09:39:55 AM
Exactly! Thanks for taking care of my light work, PH :biggrin:
Oops. . . sorry. . . :-[ :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on May 14, 2010, 09:31:55 AM
No and neither are you, but you seem to assume a position of knowing more than the rest of us based upon the kool aid you've been slurping up from the media.
Both of us live in Indiana and now the idiots we elected are talking about floating a similar law here. Whats your validation for that piece of crap legislation?
I doubt you did. . . :rolleyes:
Who are you referring to when you say "they". The police?
What is it about the constitution that you do not understand?
Where in the constitution does it say you have a right to be here illegally? And yes, I was referring to the police.
Side thought. We are actually working on solving the immigration problem. The way things are going lately we will be just like the oppression the immigrants are coming here to escape so they will quit coming and those who are here will just go back to their own countries.....Damn.....what a good idea....
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 10:00:18 AM
Where in the constitution does it say you have a right to be here illegally? And yes, I was referring to the police.
. . .
For starters. . .I never said anyone had a right to be here illegally, however the constitution clearly imposes certain rights upon all "people", and this supposed immigration law of Arizona's threatens current and legal citizens under, in part:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
. . .
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
. . .
Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution (http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution)
And naturalized citizens have no problem only the people who are here illegally and if they are stopped for a traffic violation and don't have the proper papers, which they are required to carry by law, then they can be subject to arrest. No one can be detained just because they "might" be an illegal.
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 11:23:46 AM
And naturalized citizens have no problem only the people who are here illegally and if they are stopped for a traffic violation and don't have the proper papers, which they are required to carry by law, then they can be subject to arrest. No one can be detained just because they "might" be an illegal.
Define reasonable suspicion? What does an illegal alien look like? You cannot, nor does the law in Arizona define either of these among other issues. Result? Those charged with enforcing the law will abuse it and the citizens of this country!
Then there's that little phrase at the end of Amendment 14. . ."
nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
If someone is arrested for a crime, stopped for a traffic violation, or breaking the law in some other manner they can be asked for papers but no one can be stopped arbitrarily and asked for papers just because. No one sitting in an ice cream parlor with their kids having an ice cream cone will be bothered.
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 11:50:22 AM
If someone is arrested for a crime, stopped for a traffic violation, or breaking the law in some other manner they can be asked for papers but no one can be stopped arbitrarily and asked for papers just because. No one sitting in an ice cream parlor with their kids having an ice cream cone will be bothered.
You keep believing that and you'll be living the dream here in Indiana soon. . . :rolleyes:
Why is it the only ones who are objecting are illegals, attorney's who stand to profit, and those who don't live in the state of Arizona?
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 12:05:04 PM
Why is it the only ones who are objecting are illegals, attorney's who stand to profit, and those who don't live in the state of Arizona?
If you believe that you are worse than I thought!
Those of us who do not live in the state of AZ are worried because that type of draconian and unconstitutional law will soon be in our own state if it is allowed to stand. Just look at what the jackass from Carmel is trying to do ALREADY by trying to get Indiana to adopt a similar law! How does the the "violence" validation card play out here??? It is racial profiling legalized!
It is a federal law that has been on the books for 40yrs but not enforced with a couple of revisions to the things that didn't work.
Quote from: me on May 14, 2010, 12:36:38 PM
It is a federal law that has been on the books for 40yrs but not enforced with a couple of revisions to the things that didn't work.
No. . . it is not. . . But like I said, you'll soon be living the dream if you keep spreading that bullshit thick enough. . .
It amazes me that our US Attorney General, Eric Holder has not taken the time to read the Arizon Immigration bil, it is 17 pages, and it is very clear about what it can and cannot do:
* SB1070 says police cannot solely consider race, color or national origin.
* It also says officers can only ask during a valid traffic stop or an investigation with probable cause.
* The bill is clear, if you're a U.S. citizen you need local, state or federally issued identification, like a driver's license.
* If you're a naturalized citizen you need your green card or proof of citizenship. But that's already required by the U.S. government, not Arizona.
* The bill is based on U.S. statutes and gives Arizona police the power that federal officers have.
* It's not a new idea. In 1996, the U.S. trained local officers to enforce national immigration laws under the 287(g) program.
* This bill is a bigger extension of that program.
Here is our AG, on CSPAN, discussing the Bill.....take a minute and watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U4tI_qzyH0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U4tI_qzyH0)
I have two questions:
Why in the hell are liberals upset by this bill....AND, what is YOUR solution to this problem that we face...
the bill:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&ved=0CCYQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.azleg.gov%2Flegtext%2F49leg%2F2r%2Fbills%2Fsb1070s.pdf&rct=j&q=arizona+immigration+law+text&ei=eojyS7aNNpDIMrOwxZwO&usg=AFQjCNEy4kNlUULpzneBwBTAt0H_9gXF_A&sig2=eUpOivtJHLpZIfJaw4Z-zQ (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&ved=0CCYQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.azleg.gov%2Flegtext%2F49leg%2F2r%2Fbills%2Fsb1070s.pdf&rct=j&q=arizona+immigration+law+text&ei=eojyS7aNNpDIMrOwxZwO&usg=AFQjCNEy4kNlUULpzneBwBTAt0H_9gXF_A&sig2=eUpOivtJHLpZIfJaw4Z-zQ)
http://www.youtube.com/v/mvUU5x1u3gs&feature=related
(http://media.npr.org/images/ap//AP_News_Wire:_US_News/1_Immigration_Dora_the_Citizen.sff_300.jpg?t=1274520258)
Quote"Dora is kind of like a blank screen onto which people can project their thoughts and feelings about Latinos," said Erynn Masi de Casanova, a sociology professor at the University of Cincinnati. "They feel like they can say negative things because she's only a cartoon character."
The depictions, whether through irony or protest, are being used by those who oppose and support Arizona's law. On one hand she's a likable symbol who many can relate to, and at the same time, perceived as an outsider who doesn't belong anywhere.
It's not the first time a children's character has been dragged into a serious debate.
In the late 1990s, Tinky Winky the Teletubby, a purple children's TV character with a triangle antenna — was called out by Christian leaders for being gay. Sesame Street roommates Bert and Ernie are often involved in statements on same-sex marriage.
Both shows' producers say the characters aren't gay.
In Dora's case, especially because her image is so widely available, she's an easy target as discussion ramps up on how lawmakers should address the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants living in the United States.
For about a decade, the pint-sized Latina character has taught millions of children the English alphabet, colors and Spanish phrases on a Nickelodeon TV show and through a global empire. Her smiling cherub face is plastered on everything from backpacks to T-shirts to fruit snacks.
But since the passage of the Arizona law — which requires authorities to question people about their immigration status if there's reason to suspect they're in the country illegally — Dora's life and immigration status have been scrutinized and mocked.
Several websites, including The Huffington Post, have narrated Dora's mock capture by immigration authorities. One picture circulating on Facebook shows an ad for a TV show called "Dora the Illegal Immigrant." On the Facebook page "Dora the Explorer is soo an Illegal Immigrant," there are several images showing her sailing through the air over the U.S.-Mexican border.
Many of the Dora images assume the Latina character is an illegal immigrant from Mexico.
But that's where it gets complicated.
Representatives from Nickelodeon declined to comment on Dora's background, and her place of birth or citizenship have never been clear." She has brown skin, dark hair and some experts who have studied the show say she speaks Spanish with an American accent.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127029175&sc=fb&cc=fp
Another 500 million bucks and 1,200 troops are being sent toward the AZ border situation.
Why?
Quote from: Palehorse on May 25, 2010, 03:20:31 PM
Another 500 million bucks and 1,200 troops are being sent toward the AZ border situation.
Quote from: me on May 25, 2010, 03:51:11 PM
Why?
Those big bad and dangerous aliens. . .
In a speech Tuesday on the Senate floor, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said the situation on the border has "greatly deteriorated." He called for 6,000 National Guard troops to be sent to the U.S.-Mexico border.
"I appreciate the additional 1,200 being sent ... as well as an additional $500 million, but it's simply not enough," McCain said.....
securing the boarder must be done before this problem can ever be fixed.....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 25, 2010, 04:08:38 PM
In a speech Tuesday on the Senate floor, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said the situation on the border has "greatly deteriorated." He called for 6,000 National Guard troops to be sent to the U.S.-Mexico border.
"I appreciate the additional 1,200 being sent ... as well as an additional $500 million, but it's simply not enough," McCain said.....
securing the boarder must be done before this problem can ever be fixed.....
Where was Mc-Useless and his rhetoric when AZ was screaming about this same shit during the Shrub Years?
He's a "me too" kinda politician and he's wearing a brown shirt too! (Wonder who/what he's drilling?)
The facts are, these funds and troops are ON TOP of that which has already been budgeted for the area, and the troops are to train
individuals for the new permanent positions to be filled.
Quote from: Palehorse on May 25, 2010, 04:12:56 PM
Where was Mc-Useless and his rhetoric when AZ was screaming about this same shit during the Shrub Years?
He's a "me too" kinda politician and he's wearing a brown shirt too! (Wonder who/what he's drilling?)
The facts are, these funds and troops are ON TOP of that which has already been budgeted for the area, and the troops are to train
individuals for the new permanent positions to be filled.
that is easily said by someone who is not living in that state.............8 out 10 residents of AZ, are screaming for justice to be done about a real problem that THEY are experiencing....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 25, 2010, 04:21:43 PM
that is easily said by someone who is not living in that state.............8 out 10 residents of AZ, are screaming for justice to be done about a real problem that THEY are experiencing....
Just as loudly and scandalously as they did for 8 years under the Shrub, and each time the USCBP and DHS
made budget adjustments that negatively impacted what they clearly view as entitlement funding.
Quote from: Palehorse on May 25, 2010, 04:27:50 PM
Just as loudly and scandalously as they did for 8 years under the Shrub, and each time the USCBP and DHS
made budget adjustments that negatively impacted what they clearly view as entitlement funding.
Okay, just a little reminder.....................................................................Bush is no longer in office.
and since things did not get fixed then, they have gotten worse, and need fixing now..............but, Obama is the golden child, and if he thinks 1,200 troop is enough, then by golly he HAS to be right....he is the annoited one.... RIGHT?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 25, 2010, 04:34:34 PM
Okay, just a little reminder.....................................................................Bush is no longer in office.
And you are just realizing that? :spooked:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 25, 2010, 04:34:34 PM
and since things did not get fixed then, they have gotten worse, and need fixing now..............but, Obama is the golden child, and if he thinks 1,200 troop is enough, then by golly he HAS to be right....he is the annoited one.... RIGHT?
The only ones spewing that flotsam are the brown shirted Texas Tea Party bigots. . .
As for AZ, the only difference between then and now is the POTUS. The Shrub's answer was Operation Jump Start. . .remember that?
(CNN) -- The Mexican government is requesting a quick and transparent investigation into the fatal shooting by a U.S. Border Patrol agent of a Mexican teen in Ciudad Juarez on Monday night, the Foreign Ministry said Tuesday.
The teen was shot during a rock-throwing incident, Mexican and U.S. officials said.
Mexico "reiterates that the use of firearms to repel a rock attack represents a disproportionate use of force, particularly coming from authorities who receive specialized training on the matter," the Foreign Ministry said Tuesday in a news release.
The teen's death was the second at the hands of U.S. border authorities in less than two weeks. . .
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/08/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1 (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/08/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1)
Here yah go! Let the slaughter begin! :mad:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 08, 2010, 06:47:20 PM
(CNN) -- The Mexican government is requesting a quick and transparent investigation into the fatal shooting by a U.S. Border Patrol agent of a Mexican teen in Ciudad Juarez on Monday night, the Foreign Ministry said Tuesday.
The teen was shot during a rock-throwing incident, Mexican and U.S. officials said.
Mexico "reiterates that the use of firearms to repel a rock attack represents a disproportionate use of force, particularly coming from authorities who receive specialized training on the matter," the Foreign Ministry said Tuesday in a news release.
The teen's death was the second at the hands of U.S. border authorities in less than two weeks. . .
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/08/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1 (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/08/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1)
Here yah go! Let the slaughter begin! :mad:
Gee and they would treat our teenagers soooo wonderful if the situation were reversed. They're such a giving and wonderful place should you be caught illegally over there and have such a great system of handling prisoners. We should model our system after theirs. :yes:
Quote from: me on June 08, 2010, 07:03:28 PM
Gee and they would treat our teenagers soooo wonderful if the situation were reversed. They're such a giving and wonderful place should you be caught illegally over there and have such a great system of handling prisoners. We should model our system after theirs. :yes:
Proof of hypocrisy! I cannot believe you would consider the death of a 14-15 year old unarmed kid, at the hand of an over zealous law enforcement officer,
to be akin to a pile of dog excrement on the ground, and not worthy of any higher level of consideration or value. :spooked:
Good grief! Clearly the kid is at fault. Who brings rocks to a gunfight?!? :mad:
I love the logic that we should treat others, especially kids, not the way we're treated by others, but by the way we imagine/make up that we might be treated. That justifies EVERYthing. *sarcasm*
Quote from: Palehorse on June 08, 2010, 07:15:49 PM
Proof of hypocrisy! I cannot believe you would consider the death of a 14-15 year old unarmed kid, at the hand of an over zealous law enforcement officer,
to be akin to a pile of dog excrement on the ground, and not worthy of any higher level of consideration or value. :spooked:
I'm not saying that at all what I am saying is Mexico has no right to call us out on anything that's going on over here when they are much worse. Yes, it should be investigated but as far as the Mexican government being indignant about anything we do......I don't think so.
The number of Mexicans killed or wounded by US Border Patrol Agents in 2008 was 5. In 2009 it was 12. Thus far this year it has already reached 17. . . . :spooked:
This thing is out of control and will result in a border war as sure as the sun will rise in the morning. . . :mad: :mad: :mad:
Quote from: me on June 08, 2010, 07:42:19 PM
I'm not saying that at all what I am saying is Mexico has no right to call us out on anything that's going on over here when they are much worse. Yes, it should be investigated but as far as the Mexican government being indignant about anything we do......I don't think so.
It's called foreign policy me. . . And pissing off your neighbors is not a good way to secure your borders or increase security on a national scale. . .
What makes you think that middle eastern people are the only ones who will fly planes into buildings and strap bombs to themselves in order to kill Americans? And just how successful do you think we could be in keeping out Canadians or Mexicans who hate Americans because we indiscriminately shoot them down and kill them?
That's just downright ignorant!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 08, 2010, 07:49:11 PM
It's called foreign policy me. . . And pissing off your neighbors is not a good way to secure your borders or increase security on a national scale. . .
What makes you think that middle eastern people are the only ones who will fly planes into buildings and strap bombs to themselves in order to kill Americans? And just how successful do you think we could be in keeping out Canadians or Mexicans who hate Americans because we indiscriminately shoot them down and kill them?
That's just downright ignorant!
Ya know, I haven't noticed a drug cartel coming out of Canada and killing and robbing our citizens lately so how can you possibly compare the two?
Quote from: me on June 08, 2010, 08:03:18 PM
Ya know, I haven't noticed a drug cartel coming out of Canada and killing and robbing our citizens lately so how can you possibly compare the two?
Lock down one you need to lock down all. . .The Canadian border is just as popular for drug smugglers and illegal immigrants as the Mexican one is. . .
The effect of Canadians on our economy is devastating. Unlike Mexicans, Canadians take jobs from Americans that Americans actually want. Another way Canadians are destabilizing our economy is by replacing our money with theirs. How many times have you gotten change in a store only to realize when you get home that you were given a practically worthless Canadian penny or dime? :mad: :rolleyes:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 08, 2010, 08:05:25 PM
Lock down one you need to lock down all. . .The Canadian border is just as popular for drug smugglers and illegal immigrants as the Mexican one is. . .
The effect of Canadians on our economy is devastating. Unlike Mexicans, Canadians take jobs from Americans that Americans actually want. Another way Canadians are destabilizing our economy is by replacing our money with theirs. How many times have you gotten change in a store only to realize when you get home that you were given a practically worthless Canadian penny or dime? :mad: :rolleyes:
Ah, but they, the Canadians, are coming over legally and there's a difference whether you want to accept that or not. If they do something illegal while here they also don't expect us to coddle them.
Have you ever stood in like behind them at the grocery store and had them make fun of you or other American's in spanish and then pay for their groceries with a voucher card which you helped pay for? Have you ever worked with them and heard them making fun of other workers or maybe you in spanish? They don't appreciate anything they are getting and to them we are fools. We are being used pure and simple and there needs to be a stop put to it. What is wrong with going back to the work voucher's and them coming legally like they used to in the summer to pick crops and do summer jobs and then going back home? Things seemed to work pretty well then. My neighbor is sitting at home right now out of work and his wonderful union is sending Mexican's to jobs rather than some of the membership. No, the companies don't have to hire them just because the union sent them to the job but what's up with that anyway? He has been a member of that union for over 10yrs and the Mexican's are new as in under a year. These people are working inside at Lilly and can't/won't speak a word of English from what some of his buddy's who are working with them are telling him. Yes, I'm getting totally off topic here but these are some things that are reallly torquing my jaw and that need to be addressed.
Quote from: me on June 08, 2010, 08:38:11 PM
Ah, but they, the Canadians, are coming over legally and there's a difference whether you want to accept that or not. If they do something illegal while here they also don't expect us to coddle them.
So the mexicans that come here from Canada? Or how about the mexicans that cross through the US on their way to canada, for their free health care? Come on. . . It's the same thing! If we closed the US - Mexican border tight as a drum, they'd just go around and come down through Canada!
Quote from: me on June 08, 2010, 08:38:11 PM
Have you ever stood in like behind them at the grocery store and had them make fun of you or other American's in spanish and then pay for their groceries with a voucher card which you helped pay for? Have you ever worked with them and heard them making fun of other workers or maybe you in spanish? They don't appreciate anything they are getting and to them we are fools. We are being used pure and simple and there needs to be a stop put to it. What is wrong with going back to the work voucher's and them coming legally like they used to in the summer to pick crops and do summer jobs and then going back home? Things seemed to work pretty well then. My neighbor is sitting at home right now out of work and his wonderful union is sending Mexican's to jobs rather than some of the membership. No, the companies don't have to hire them just because the union sent them to the job but what's up with that anyway? He has been a member of that union for over 10yrs and the Mexican's are new as in under a year. These people are working inside at Lilly and can't/won't speak a word of English from what some of his buddy's who are working with them are telling him. Yes, I'm getting totally off topic here but these are some things that are reallly torquing my jaw and that need to be addressed.
Okay, first of all, do you speak spanish or understand it? No. You don't. I do, and I rarely let them know I do just so I can comment on paranoid statements like this. Most often they are talking about the same damned things you and everybody else talk about while standing in line; how long it's taking, why don't they have more checkouts open, and what they are going to make for dinner, do that day/evening, or any number of other things life occupies us with while standing in lines. . . Sheesh.
Now, if the unions are sending folks to fill jobs then I would assume they are following the policies of the law and unions, and if they are not then it is up to the membership to drop a dime on their ass. But they don't do that do they? No, because they know damned good and well that what the unions are doing is by the letter of the law. . . or policies within which they are supposed to operate.
I'm NOT saying it isn't a problem, but what I
am saying is that draconian policy and shoot to kill practices are not the answers to the problem either; short term nor long term. Enforcement of the laws and policies already on the books is the answer in part, but rather than do this some factions of this nations citizenry want to stir up the shark tank in order to drown the present administration in a tsunami of false accusation and hysteria. . . And apparently its working. :mad:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 08, 2010, 09:17:45 PM
I'm NOT saying it isn't a problem, but what I am saying is that draconian policy and shoot to kill practices are not the answers to the problem either; short term nor long term. Enforcement of the laws and policies already on the books is the answer in part, but rather than do this some factions of this nations citizenry want to stir up the shark tank in order to drown the present administration in a tsunami of false accusation and hysteria. . . And apparently its working. :mad:
And that is exactly what Arizona is doing.
Quote from: me on June 08, 2010, 10:48:46 PM
And that is exactly what Arizona is doing.
No, they are not. . . :no:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 03:25:45 AM
No, they are not. . . :no:
Have you read the 10 page law that was passed?
Quote from: me on June 09, 2010, 02:01:13 PM
Have you read the 10 page law that was passed?
Yes, have you?
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
Yes, have you?
Yes and I didn't see anywhere where it said they could just go up to people on the street and question them or ask for papers.
Quote from: me on June 09, 2010, 02:05:31 PM
Yes and I didn't see anywhere where it said they could just go up to people on the street and question them or ask for papers.
Doesn't say they can't either. . . In fact it is so vague it leaves the interpretation of "reasonable suspicion" wide open. . . :rolleyes: And we all know how well that works now don't we? :rolleyes:
Re: Arizona ... Right or wrong?
What it boils down to is who are we to tell Arizona how to handle their business anyway? It seems like the majority of people there, including the legal immigrants, are all for the bill and the only ones complaining about it are those who don't live in the state.
Quote from: me on June 09, 2010, 02:59:17 PM
Re: Arizona ... Right or wrong?
What it boils down to is who are we to tell Arizona how to handle their business anyway? It seems like the majority of people there, including the legal immigrants, are all for the bill and the only ones complaining about it are those who don't live in the state.
What you don't seem to get is the fact it sets a precedent, and as already has been demonstrated the rest of the states, (including Indiana), are chomping at the bit to pass their own versions of this bill. And they will use that version as a template, which means the wide open opportunities for abuse will become wide spread in this nation!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 02:13:31 PM
Doesn't say they can't either. . . In fact it is so vague it leaves the interpretation of "reasonable suspicion" wide open. . . :rolleyes: And we all know how well that works now don't we? :rolleyes:
it says....Arizona Immigration Law SB1070 Pt. 1 (http://www.gcpower.net/?p=419)
B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26
PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). which clearly states:
A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.
For the life of me, I do not understand how else any immigration law could be MORE fair than this.....
remember WHO the illegal party is here....please.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 09, 2010, 03:39:23 PM
. . .
For the life of me, I do not understand how else any immigration law could be MORE fair than this.....
remember WHO the illegal party is here....please.
Just remember you said that when Indiana adopts it and the jack booted thugs start in on you one evening. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 03:47:43 PM
Just remember you said that when Indiana adopts it and the jack booted thugs start in on you one evening. . .
why do you assume they are jack booted thugs?......I know several Indiana State Police officers and they are NOT jack booted thugs....
If they act like Jack Booted thugs, then they will be disiplined accordingly, just as if the violate any other rule.....
btw, that is from our US Code of Laws.....the AZ Immigration Law, copied it verbatim....
and fwiw, I hope and pray that Indiana DOES adopt this law....it only enforcing what is already on the books....and it is a start to cleaning up a mess that has gotten WAY out of hand.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 09, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
why do you assume they are jack booted thugs?......I know several Indiana State Police officers and they are NOT jack booted thugs....
If they act like Jack Booted thugs, then they will be disiplined accordingly, just as if the violate any other rule.....
btw, that is from our US Code of Laws.....the AZ Immigration Law, copied it verbatim....
and fwiw, I hope and pray that Indiana DOES adopt this law....it only enforcing what is already on the books....and it is a start to cleaning up a mess that has gotten WAY out of hand.
Just watch and see. You assume it will
only be the state level law enforcement officers enforcing this?
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 04:07:47 PM
Just watch and see. You assume it will only be the state level law enforcement officers enforcing this?
THAT is what the LAW says.....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 09, 2010, 04:48:32 PM
THAT is what the LAW says.....
Uh. . .no, it does not!
"A law enforcement official or agency of this
state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state. . ."
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 04:53:19 PM
Uh. . .no, it does not!
"A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state. . ."
but, the law STILL applies to them too....if they do not comply with the law, then they are derelict in their duties...
so, are you saing you just don't have any faith in our government?....I thought you wanted MORE of it.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 09, 2010, 04:57:11 PM
but, the law STILL applies to them too....if they do not comply with the law, then they are derelict in their duties...
so, are you saing you just don't have any faith in our government?....I thought you wanted MORE of it.
No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that this law will end up being enforced by guys like Lincoln Brooks, to cite a local example of a Jack Booted thug in a uniform and carrying a badge. . . And just how likely is it that guys/women like him will push the envelope surrounding not so much what this laws says, but what it does NOT say?
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 05:00:26 PM
No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that this law will end up being enforced by guys like Lincoln Brooks, to cite a local example of a Jack Booted thug in a uniform and carrying a badge. . . And just how likely is it that guys/women like him will push the envelope surrounding not so much what this laws says, but what it does NOT say?
guys like lincoln brooks are like a needle in a hay stack compared to the GOOD cops that are out there....Brooks got nailed too didn't he?....they need to make examples out of those guys, especialy after this law takes place....
it is a GOOD LAW!!...and the right thing to do.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 09, 2010, 05:22:12 PM
. . .
it is a GOOD LAW!!...and the right thing to do.
We'll see how you feel about it when your daughter marries a man of hispanic ancestry and they give you grandchildren. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 08, 2010, 09:17:45 PM
So the mexicans that come here from Canada? Or how about the mexicans that cross through the US on their way to canada, for their free health care? Come on. . . It's the same thing! If we closed the US - Mexican border tight as a drum, they'd just go around and come down through Canada!
Okay, first of all, do you speak spanish or understand it? No. You don't. I do, and I rarely let them know I do just so I can comment on paranoid statements like this. Most often they are talking about the same damned things you and everybody else talk about while standing in line; how long it's taking, why don't they have more checkouts open, and what they are going to make for dinner, do that day/evening, or any number of other things life occupies us with while standing in lines. . . Sheesh.
Now, if the unions are sending folks to fill jobs then I would assume they are following the policies of the law and unions, and if they are not then it is up to the membership to drop a dime on their ass. But they don't do that do they? No, because they know damned good and well that what the unions are doing is by the letter of the law. . . or policies within which they are supposed to operate.
I'm NOT saying it isn't a problem, but what I am saying is that draconian policy and shoot to kill practices are not the answers to the problem either; short term nor long term. Enforcement of the laws and policies already on the books is the answer in part, but rather than do this some factions of this nations citizenry want to stir up the shark tank in order to drown the present administration in a tsunami of false accusation and hysteria. . . And apparently its working. :mad:
Construction unions work a tad different than a factory or "in shop" union. The business agent can send out whom ever he chooses and if he chooses to send out a 6 month permit man over a seasoned journeyman he does. Of course the permit man makes less than the journeyman so the company he's sent out to go to work for darn sure isn't gonna say "hey sent me a journeyman instead" of a permit man. Also the permit man pays more into the union because he pays dues plus paying for the permit so the union stands to make more money by giving the worker a permit. Now if the journeyman makes too many waves he can very well end up sitting even longer just because.....
Quote from: me on June 09, 2010, 08:25:30 PM
Construction unions work a tad different than a factory or "in shop" union. The business agent can send out whom ever he chooses and if he chooses to send out a 6 month permit man over a seasoned journeyman he does. Of course the permit man makes less than the journeyman so the company he's sent out to go to work for darn sure isn't gonna say "hey sent me a journeyman instead" of a permit man. Also the permit man pays more into the union because he pays dues plus paying for the permit so the union stands to make more money by giving the worker a permit. Now if the journeyman makes too many waves he can very well end up sitting even longer just because.....
And whose fault is that? They're following policy!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 08:54:15 PM
And whose fault is that? They're following policy!
Ya and that policy sucks but it's been that way for a long time and the pitiful part is the worker can do nothing about it they just have to put up with it. Either way it goes they get sh*t on. There are no committee men in this particular situation and no one is a "company" man so the men just have to put up with what the union and the business agent dishes out. The members are not allowed to take a nonunion job to fill in either or they will be kicked out of the union so if their unemployment runs out they're just screwed.
Quote from: me on June 09, 2010, 09:10:39 PM
Ya and that policy sucks but it's been that way for a long time and the pitiful part is the worker can do nothing about it they just have to put up with it. Either way it goes they get sh*t on. There are no committee men in this particular situation and no one is a "company" man so the men just have to put up with what the union and the business agent dishes out. The members are not allowed to take a nonunion job to fill in either or they will be kicked out of the union so if their unemployment runs out they're just screwed.
And this is a hispanic persons fault because?????
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 09:52:47 PM
And this is a hispanic persons fault because?????
If he is here illegally he should be sent back not given a job ahead of a journeyman who has done his apprenticeship and he should by no means be sent out ahead of him. If he is here legally why wouldn't he get a union membership? If it is done like it is supposed to be done permit men are only used if there are no more journeymen to fill the jobs. But, like I stated, if you make waves the union and/or business agent will see to it that you set even longer. Of course they still expect you to pay your dues each month.
Quote from: me on June 09, 2010, 10:04:38 PM
If he is here illegally he should be sent back not given a job ahead of a journeyman who has done his apprenticeship and he should by no means be sent out ahead of him. If he is here legally why wouldn't he get a union membership? If it is done like it is supposed to be done permit men are only used if there are no more journeymen to fill the jobs. But, like I stated, if you make waves the union and/or business agent will see to it that you set even longer. Of course they still expect you to pay your dues each month.
A lot of assumptions being made in that scenario, the foremost of which surrounds the immigration status of the worker(s). Then there's the assumption that the union is doing something against its own by-laws and policies. . . Too many asses in that recipe!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 10:17:47 PM
A lot of assumptions being made in that scenario, the foremost of which surrounds the immigration status of the worker(s). Then there's the assumption that the union is doing something against its own by-laws and policies. . . Too many asses in that recipe!
No, you are trying to excuse it because you don't think there is a problem. And that is not an assumption on the part of the union policy that is first hand knowledge.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 09, 2010, 05:44:28 PM
We'll see how you feel about it when your daughter marries a man of hispanic ancestry and they give you grandchildren. . .
what does that have to do with the law?................If my daughter marries a man with hispanic ancestry has NOTHING to do with the law....NOW, if my daughter marries a man who broke the law....THAT has ramifications, and who else is there to blame but themselves...
OH, it is the TAX payers problem, right?
Go to the link at the bottom and watch the video of this incident. . .
A video obtained by CNN raises questions about a U.S. Border Patrol agent's claim that he fatally shot a 14-year-old boy in Ciudad Juarez while he was surrounded by rock-throwing suspected illegal immigrants.
CNN obtained the video, which was shot by a witness on a cell phone camera from the Mexican side of the border, from affiliate Univision. The video aired on its program Primer Impacto late Wednesday.
The video shows part of the build-up before the incident, with several individuals running underneath the Puente Negro, a railroad span that connects the two countries.
Monday night's incident started around 6:30 p.m. when Customs and Border Protection agents responded to a report of a group of suspected illegal immigrants being smuggled into the United States near the Paso del Norte port of entry, FBI special agent Andrea Simmons said.
In the distance, a U.S. border patrol officer on his bicycle can be seen making his way toward the area. Seconds later, the officer can be seen getting off his bicycle and approaching two of the four suspected Mexican nationals who had just crossed through an opening in the fence. One of the suspects is detained by the officer, but never handcuffed, and instead dragged a short distance. This happened on the U.S. side of the border.
Video: Outrage over border patrol shooting
RELATED TOPICS
Border Control and Customs
Mexico
Moments later, the officer points, what appears to be his firearm in the direction of a second suspect, standing about 60 feet away from the officer -- on the Mexican side of the border. The video shows the suspect running away.
Seconds later, two gunshots can be heard on the video. A third gunshot is heard in a different sequence of the tape. After the shooting, another suspect is seen running in the upper left hand side of screen away from the incident.
"They're throwing rocks," witnesses screaming in Spanish can be heard in the background of the video as the officer opens fire. "They hit him ... they hit him."
The video contradicts Simmons' account who said: "This agent, who had the second subject detained on the ground, gave verbal commands to the remaining subjects to stop and retreat. However, the subjects surrounded the agent and continued to throw rocks at him. The agent then fired his service weapon several times, striking one subject who later died."
The victim, 14-year-old Sergio Adrian Hernandez Guereca, was a secondary student in Juarez.
"The young man was not armed," said Sergio Belmonte, Ciudad Juarez spokesman. "He did not have the physical size to threaten anyone. The aggression (by the U.S. agent) is evident." Belmonte said Hernandez was shot in the head.
"My people have spoken to his family. His dad says he was a straight-A student. His secondary school even sent him on an academic trip because of his good grades," Mayor Jose Reyes Ferriz said.
A memorial for Guereca will be held in Juarez Thursday morning, according to Reyes. Local politicians are expected to attend.
Reports that the Mexican military may have drawn weapons on U.S. border patrol, which surfaced earlier Wednesday, could not be immediately confirmed. The tape released by Univision did not show any Mexican military troops.
"We are aware of those reports, but I cannot confirm them to you at this time," said Mexican military spokesman Enrique Torres. "I plan on speaking with the individuals who are said to have been involved, but I can't and won't confirm that to you. I cannot speculate."
The Mexican government has requested a quick and transparent investigation into the fatal shooting.
Mexico "reiterates that the use of firearms to repel a rock attack represents a disproportionate use of force, particularly coming from authorities who receive specialized training on the matter," the Foreign Ministry said Tuesday in a news release.
. . .
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2010, 10:14:03 AM
what does that have to do with the law?................If my daughter marries a man with hispanic ancestry has NOTHING to do with the law....NOW, if my daughter marries a man who broke the law....THAT has ramifications, and who else is there to blame but themselves...
OH, it is the TAX payers problem, right?
It's your problem then. He'll look illegal as will their offspring, and that will result in reasonable suspicion. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2010, 02:52:40 PM
It's your problem then. He'll look illegal as will their offspring, and that will result in reasonable suspicion. . .
ONLY if they are pulled over for a crime....they cannot just pull someone over because they "look" a certain way...THAT is all the AZ Law says......IF, they pull some over on a routine situation....THEN, and only THEN, and IF they do not have a valid "green" card or drivers licence, then the officials can call customs to check and see IF they are here legally.
Looking illegal is NOT a crime..........being illegal IS a crime.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2010, 03:16:06 PM
ONLY if they are pulled over for a crime....they cannot just pull someone over because they "look" a certain way...THAT is all the AZ Law says......IF, they pull some over on a routine situation....THEN, and only THEN, and IF they do not have a valid "green" card or drivers licence, then the officials can call customs to check and see IF they are here legally.
Looking illegal is NOT a crime..........being illegal IS a crime.
And just about everyone else in the universe is aware that a cop who really wants to pull someone over will follow you for about 5 minutes, and within that timeframe you will break a traffic law. . . either operations wise or safety equipment wise. . .
I guess it's been a while since Henry has been pulled over for "driving while white" :rolleyes:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2010, 02:49:16 PM
Go to the link at the bottom and watch the video of this incident. . .
A video obtained by CNN raises questions about a U.S. Border Patrol agent's claim that he fatally shot a 14-year-old boy in Ciudad Juarez while he was surrounded by rock-throwing suspected illegal immigrants.
CNN obtained the video, which was shot by a witness on a cell phone camera from the Mexican side of the border, from affiliate Univision. The video aired on its program Primer Impacto late Wednesday.
The video shows part of the build-up before the incident, with several individuals running underneath the Puente Negro, a railroad span that connects the two countries.
Monday night's incident started around 6:30 p.m. when Customs and Border Protection agents responded to a report of a group of suspected illegal immigrants being smuggled into the United States near the Paso del Norte port of entry, FBI special agent Andrea Simmons said.
In the distance, a U.S. border patrol officer on his bicycle can be seen making his way toward the area. Seconds later, the officer can be seen getting off his bicycle and approaching two of the four suspected Mexican nationals who had just crossed through an opening in the fence. One of the suspects is detained by the officer, but never handcuffed, and instead dragged a short distance. This happened on the U.S. side of the border.
Video: Outrage over border patrol shooting
RELATED TOPICS
Border Control and Customs
Mexico
Moments later, the officer points, what appears to be his firearm in the direction of a second suspect, standing about 60 feet away from the officer -- on the Mexican side of the border. The video shows the suspect running away.
Seconds later, two gunshots can be heard on the video. A third gunshot is heard in a different sequence of the tape. After the shooting, another suspect is seen running in the upper left hand side of screen away from the incident.
"They're throwing rocks," witnesses screaming in Spanish can be heard in the background of the video as the officer opens fire. "They hit him ... they hit him."
The video contradicts Simmons' account who said: "This agent, who had the second subject detained on the ground, gave verbal commands to the remaining subjects to stop and retreat. However, the subjects surrounded the agent and continued to throw rocks at him. The agent then fired his service weapon several times, striking one subject who later died."
The victim, 14-year-old Sergio Adrian Hernandez Guereca, was a secondary student in Juarez.
"The young man was not armed," said Sergio Belmonte, Ciudad Juarez spokesman. "He did not have the physical size to threaten anyone. The aggression (by the U.S. agent) is evident." Belmonte said Hernandez was shot in the head.
"My people have spoken to his family. His dad says he was a straight-A student. His secondary school even sent him on an academic trip because of his good grades," Mayor Jose Reyes Ferriz said.
A memorial for Guereca will be held in Juarez Thursday morning, according to Reyes. Local politicians are expected to attend.
Reports that the Mexican military may have drawn weapons on U.S. border patrol, which surfaced earlier Wednesday, could not be immediately confirmed. The tape released by Univision did not show any Mexican military troops.
"We are aware of those reports, but I cannot confirm them to you at this time," said Mexican military spokesman Enrique Torres. "I plan on speaking with the individuals who are said to have been involved, but I can't and won't confirm that to you. I cannot speculate."
The Mexican government has requested a quick and transparent investigation into the fatal shooting.
Mexico "reiterates that the use of firearms to repel a rock attack represents a disproportionate use of force, particularly coming from authorities who receive specialized training on the matter," the Foreign Ministry said Tuesday in a news release.
. . .
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2)
Did you read this? Did you watch the video? Does the official report match what the video shows?
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 10, 2010, 03:22:31 PM
I guess it's been a while since Henry has been pulled over for "driving while white" :rolleyes:
Have YOU witnessed someone pulled over JUST because they was not white?..........
Yup :yes:
Exactly PH, great illustration of your point.
Palehorse, I watched the video and read your thread..it is hard to see or make out WHAT is going on in the video...but, all I can say is IF it was an unjustified act, then that patrol agent should be fired and tried if he is guilty..........there are bad apples in every cart....just because this ONE incident happened does not mean it happens all the time....we have stories like this often across this land, where bad cops do stupid things.....that should not wipe out all of the good work that good cops do everyday...
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 10, 2010, 03:36:35 PM
Yup :yes:
right... ;) ...of course it happens all the time doesn't it....all I can do is take you word, but HOW did you know that they was not pulled over for a REAL reason, other than what it appeared to you?....or because the guilty party claimed it happened....
Look, I know that crap happens .... and the focus should be on cleaning up the "f" up law enforcement NOT, simply forcing good cops from doing their jobs....as according to the law.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2010, 03:35:14 PM
Have YOU witnessed someone pulled over JUST because they was not white?..........
I do believe she has a point on that one but it is an entirely different thing and has nothing to do what-so-ever with this situation. Like I mentioned yesterday. The only people who are objection to this law are people who don't live in the state or who are illegals. It is none of our business period they have to protect their citizens.
Quote from: me on June 10, 2010, 03:44:51 PM
I do believe she has a point on that one but it is an entirely different thing and has nothing to do what-so-ever with this situation. Like I mentioned yesterday. The only people who are objection to this law are people who don't live in the state or who are illegals. It is none of our business period they have to protect their citizens.
So what you are saying is STFU because you don't live there? :confused: Well, guess what; INDIANA wants to do the very same thing! :rant:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2010, 03:59:13 PM
So what you are saying is STFU because you don't live there? :confused: Well, guess what; INDIANA wants to do the very same thing! :rant:
GOOD!!!
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2010, 04:31:31 PM
GOOD!!!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2010, 03:23:19 PM
Did you read this? Did you watch the video? Does the official report match what the video shows?
You should, because this is what you are endorsing.
I'd luve to hear the logic which makes you think that racial profiling doeanmt pertain to this topic, "me".
Of course you just ahve to take my word for it Henry. I don't have a video, but I was in the car. I know the person was pulled over b/c his taillight was out. He was subjected to a dozen personal questions and the officer requested that he open trunk. He did. Once the trunk was inspected the policeman asked him to step to the rear of the car so that he could show him the taillight. It was the darndest thing! It worked! Must have been a short. :rolleyes:
Until you walk in the shoes of someone of a different race then it's easy for you to sit in your warm and fuzzy land of make-believe that allows you to think these things don't happen on a regular basis.
Secondly, I have friends who are LEOs and I've been privy to conversations about this very subject. They're good officers, but they have their methods. Imagine what happens when a bad officer uses those methods.
Now, the question is...are those methods a violation of the constitution and who is affected when someone has a look, car or is in a neighborhood which trigger those methods.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 10, 2010, 04:52:49 PM
I'd luve to hear the logic which makes you think that racial profiling doeanmt pertain to this topic, "me".
Of course you just ahve to take my word for it Henry. I don't have a video, but I was in the car. I know the person was pulled over b/c his taillight was out. He was subjected to a dozen personal questions and the officer requested that he open trunk. He did. Once the trunk was inspected the policeman asked him to step to the rear of the car so that he could show him the taillight. It was the darndest thing! It worked! Must have been a short. :rolleyes:
Until you walk in the shoes of someone of a different race then it's easy for you to sit in your warm and fuzzy land of make-believe that allows you to think these things don't happen on a regular basis.
Secondly, I have friends who are LEOs and I've been privy to conversations about this very subject. They're good officers, but they have their methods. Imagine what happens when a bad officer uses those methods.
Now, the question is...are those methods a violation of the constitution and who is affected when someone has a look, car or is in a neighborhood which trigger those methods.
And what happens when one of these illegals or one of the drug cartel kill's or kidnaps an American or one of their even own to sell into prostitution because nothing at all is being done? You're argument not even sensible its a lot of what if's and could be's. The killing, robbing, and kidnapping are real and actually happening. What about the kid who just got back from Afghanistan who was killed by an illegal in Los Angles recently. He was just let go instead of transported back to Mexico even though he had been in trouble with the law. Was that right?
Where in the constitution does it say we have to coddle illegals of any race?
me, you wouldn't know logical if it slapped you upside your head. ;D
So, how is harassing American citizens using subjective reasoning going to protect us from any of those things?
Quote from: me on June 10, 2010, 07:14:11 PM
. . .
Where in the constitution does it say we have to coddle illegals of any race?
Again?
. . .
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.. . .
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.. . .
Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;
nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.. . .
And aren't those people who are fearing for their safety being deprived of their right to:
Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I see no where that it states illegal immigrants. By enforcing the soon to be enacted law they will be giving the citizens protection.
Quote from: me on June 10, 2010, 07:26:27 PM
And aren't those people who are fearing for their safety being deprived of their right to:
Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I see no where that it states illegal immigrants. By enforcing the soon to be enacted law they will be giving the citizens protection.
And the fly in the ointment is the bolded red portion which your cherry picking completely disregards. So tell me, how many times has this kidnapping, rape, murder, and extortion been undertaken by illegals in Indiana?
POOF there goes that logic. . . Fact is, the crimes you ascribe solely to illegal aliens are in fact committed with far greater frequency, and most often, by citizens of this country!
Quote from: me on June 10, 2010, 07:14:11 PM
What about the kid who just got back from Afghanistan who was killed by an illegal in Los Angles recently.
Source, please? I want it to put with this one
http://btop.courierpress.com/news/2007/sep/19/court-unravels-name-game/
and this one
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/jun/09/hit-and-runs-lead-three-arrests/?partner=popular
Here in the Devil's Playground we have little compassion for the poor drunken immigrants who have come to this country to do jobs "Americans won't do" -- like crashing into cars, trucks and school buses.
Oops. Nearly forgot this one
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/may/12/honduran-arrested-posey-county-indicted-federal-gu/
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2010, 07:43:10 PM
Source, please? I want it to put with this one
http://btop.courierpress.com/news/2007/sep/19/court-unravels-name-game/
and this one
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/jun/09/hit-and-runs-lead-three-arrests/?partner=popular
Here in the Devil's Playground we have little compassion for the poor drunken immigrants who have come to this country to do jobs "Americans won't do" -- like crashing into cars, trucks and school buses.
Oops. Nearly forgot this one
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/may/12/honduran-arrested-posey-county-indicted-federal-gu/
So, apparently in Indiana the law works just fine as is, and there is no need for this state to clone AZ's draconian law!
NOTE: In example two there was no mention of the three intoxicated individuals being illegally in this country. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2010, 08:08:59 PM
So, apparently in Indiana the law works just fine as is, and there is no need for this state to clone AZ's draconian law!
Not really. See the guy who flipped the school bus, and the guy buying weapons had already been deported at least once each. They kept coming back, and committing more crimes. What's the point in tossing them out, when they just turn around and stroll back in?
And the three drunks in the pickup going the wrong way on divided streets? They're illegal. But so far, the cops haven't been able to pinpoint their real names for the news release.
Sorry, PH, but this is a pet-peeve of mine. Too damn many of them show up at my recruiting calls with the same social security card. I turn them in to ICE every time, but they aren't sent home. If the feds won't enforce the law, somebody has to.
I get real sick of the "they do jobs Americans won't" excuse. They do jobs Americans would love to do, but since they don't draw benefits, collect unemployment or file workers comp claims the companies can get them cheaper than the Americans who would love to have those jobs. We can't compete. The Fair Labor Standards Act and the Wage and Hour Laws won't allow us to compete. The illegals scoff at those laws, just like they scoff at all the others. And the ones who take the jobs apparently bring their deadbeats along with them, to get drunk and flip over school buses full of kids, or run drugs into this country and guns out.
I see no point in trying to close the border. It leaks like a sieve. But there is no excuse for allowing companies to employ illegals ... especially not in this economy.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2010, 07:43:10 PM
Source, please? I want it to put with this one
http://btop.courierpress.com/news/2007/sep/19/court-unravels-name-game/
and this one
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/jun/09/hit-and-runs-lead-three-arrests/?partner=popular
Here in the Devil's Playground we have little compassion for the poor drunken immigrants who have come to this country to do jobs "Americans won't do" -- like crashing into cars, trucks and school buses.
Oops. Nearly forgot this one
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/may/12/honduran-arrested-posey-county-indicted-federal-gu/
The neighbor came over and was here for over 2hrs earlier so I didn't get a chance to look it up. It was a teenager whose mom was in Afghanistan that was killed.
Wait 'til Arizona starts denying birth certificates to children of illegal immigrants, even if they are born in the U.S.
A federal judge has blocked key components of AZ's Immigration Law, rendering it harmless. . . :smile:
Next stop, the wise fools on the hill. . .
Quote from: followsthewolf on June 11, 2010, 09:24:52 PM
Wait 'til Arizona starts denying birth certificates to children of illegal immigrants, even if they are born in the U.S.
Well, that won't happen with the present law, which I would like to see changed. If their parents are illegal, being born in this country doesn't make them a citizen.