Arizona ... Right or wrong?

[Palehorse]

Yes and I didn't see anywhere where it said they could just go up to people on the street and question them or ask for papers.

Doesn't say they can't either. . . In fact it is so vague it leaves the interpretation of "reasonable suspicion" wide open. . .   And we all know how well that works now don't we? 

[me]

Re: Arizona ... Right or wrong?

What it boils down to is who are we to tell Arizona how to handle their business anyway?  It seems like the majority of people there, including the legal immigrants, are all for the bill and the only ones complaining about it are those who don't live in the state.

[Palehorse]

Re: Arizona ... Right or wrong?

What it boils down to is who are we to tell Arizona how to handle their business anyway?  It seems like the majority of people there, including the legal immigrants, are all for the bill and the only ones complaining about it are those who don't live in the state.

What you don't seem to get is the fact it sets a precedent, and as already has been demonstrated the rest of the states, (including Indiana), are chomping at the bit to pass their own versions of this bill. And they will use that version as a template, which means the wide open opportunities for abuse will become wide spread in this nation!

[Henry Hawk]

Doesn't say they can't either. . . In fact it is so vague it leaves the interpretation of "reasonable suspicion" wide open. . .   And we all know how well that works now don't we? 

it says....Arizona Immigration Law SB1070 Pt. 1

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

which clearly states: A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.

A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

For the life of me, I do not understand how else any immigration law could be MORE fair than this.....

remember WHO the illegal party is here....please.

[Palehorse]

. . .
For the life of me, I do not understand how else any immigration law could be MORE fair than this.....

remember WHO the illegal party is here....please.

Just remember you said that when Indiana adopts it and the jack booted thugs start in on you one evening. . .

[Henry Hawk]

Just remember you said that when Indiana adopts it and the jack booted thugs start in on you one evening. . .

why do you assume they are jack booted thugs?......I know several Indiana State Police officers and they are NOT jack booted thugs....

If they act like Jack Booted thugs, then they will be disiplined accordingly, just as if the violate any other rule.....

btw, that is from our US Code of Laws.....the AZ Immigration Law, copied it verbatim....

and fwiw, I hope and pray that Indiana DOES adopt this law....it only enforcing what is already on the books....and it is a start to cleaning up a mess that has gotten WAY out of hand.

[Palehorse]

why do you assume they are jack booted thugs?......I know several Indiana State Police officers and they are NOT jack booted thugs....

If they act like Jack Booted thugs, then they will be disiplined accordingly, just as if the violate any other rule.....

btw, that is from our US Code of Laws.....the AZ Immigration Law, copied it verbatim....

and fwiw, I hope and pray that Indiana DOES adopt this law....it only enforcing what is already on the books....and it is a start to cleaning up a mess that has gotten WAY out of hand.

Just watch and see. You assume it will only be the state level law enforcement officers enforcing this?

[Henry Hawk]

Just watch and see. You assume it will only be the state level law enforcement officers enforcing this?

THAT is what the LAW says.....

[Palehorse]

THAT is what the LAW says.....

Uh. . .no, it does not!

"A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state. . ."

[Henry Hawk]

Uh. . .no, it does not!

"A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state. . ."

but, the law STILL applies to them too....if they do not comply with the law, then they are derelict in their duties...

so, are you saing you just don't have any faith in our government?....I thought you wanted MORE of it.

[Palehorse]

but, the law STILL applies to them too....if they do not comply with the law, then they are derelict in their duties...

so, are you saing you just don't have any faith in our government?....I thought you wanted MORE of it.

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that this law will end up being enforced by guys like Lincoln Brooks, to cite a local example of a Jack Booted thug in a uniform and carrying a badge. . . And just how likely is it that guys/women like him will push the envelope surrounding not so much what this laws says, but what it does NOT say?

[Henry Hawk]

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that this law will end up being enforced by guys like Lincoln Brooks, to cite a local example of a Jack Booted thug in a uniform and carrying a badge. . . And just how likely is it that guys/women like him will push the envelope surrounding not so much what this laws says, but what it does NOT say?

guys like lincoln brooks are like a needle in a hay stack compared to the GOOD cops that are out there....Brooks got nailed too didn't he?....they need to make examples out of those guys, especialy after this law takes place....

it is a GOOD LAW!!...and the right thing to do.

[Palehorse]

. . .
it is a GOOD LAW!!...and the right thing to do.

We'll see how you feel about it when your daughter marries a man of hispanic ancestry and they give you grandchildren. . .

[me]

So the mexicans that come here from Canada? Or how about the mexicans that cross through the US on their way to canada, for their free health care? Come on. . . It's the same thing! If we closed the US - Mexican border tight as a drum, they'd just go around and come down through Canada!


Okay, first of all, do you speak spanish or understand it? No. You don't. I do, and I rarely let them know I do just so I can comment on paranoid statements like this. Most often they are talking about the same damned things you and everybody else talk about while standing in line; how long it's taking, why don't they have more checkouts open, and what they are going to make for dinner, do that day/evening, or any number of other things life occupies us with while standing in lines. . . Sheesh.

Now, if the unions are sending folks to fill jobs then I would assume they are following the policies of the law and unions, and if they are not then it is up to the membership to drop a dime on their ass. But they don't do that do they? No, because they know damned good and well that what the unions are doing is by the letter of the law. . . or policies within which they are supposed to operate.

I'm NOT saying it isn't a problem, but what I am saying is that draconian policy and shoot to kill practices are not the answers to the problem either; short term nor long term. Enforcement of the laws and policies already on the books is the answer in part, but rather than do this some factions of this nations citizenry want to stir up the shark tank in order to drown the present administration in a tsunami of false accusation and hysteria. . . And apparently its working. 

Construction unions work a tad different than a factory or "in shop" union.  The business agent can send out whom ever he chooses and if he chooses to send out a 6 month permit man over a seasoned journeyman he does.  Of course the permit man makes less than the journeyman so the company he's sent out to go to work for darn sure isn't gonna say "hey sent me a journeyman instead" of a permit man.  Also the permit man pays more into the union because he pays dues plus paying for the permit so the union stands to make more money by giving the worker a permit.  Now if the journeyman makes too many waves he can very well end up sitting even longer just because.....

[Palehorse]

Construction unions work a tad different than a factory or "in shop" union.  The business agent can send out whom ever he chooses and if he chooses to send out a 6 month permit man over a seasoned journeyman he does.  Of course the permit man makes less than the journeyman so the company he's sent out to go to work for darn sure isn't gonna say "hey sent me a journeyman instead" of a permit man.  Also the permit man pays more into the union because he pays dues plus paying for the permit so the union stands to make more money by giving the worker a permit.  Now if the journeyman makes too many waves he can very well end up sitting even longer just because.....

And whose fault is that? They're following policy!