Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....THAT is gone now.
What do we do? :confused:
I am not a violent person but yes, I think I would use water boarding. Although it appears to be unpleasant it isn't harmful and, like I mentioned in an earlier thread, it leaves the head attached to the body.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 24, 2009, 09:20:23 AM
:rolleyes:
rolling your eyes is your answer to keeping America Safe?....
I think this is a serious question....do we even need a CIA?
So, based on that logic, then it is also reasonable for countries who fear the integrity of the US to torture Americans in the name of safety also, correct?
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 24, 2009, 12:32:07 PM
So, based on that logic, then it is also reasonable for countries who fear the integrity of the US to torture Americans in the name of safety also, correct?
Just in case you hadn't noticed several American's were beheaded which is far worse than a little water boarding.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 24, 2009, 12:32:07 PM
So, based on that logic, then it is also reasonable for countries who fear the integrity of the US to torture Americans in the name of safety also, correct?
Everybody has got to do what they have to do secure their freedoms or rights or whatever it is they feel is worth dying for........and there is a price to pay for your/their actions.....
I for one want our Country to do what ever it takes to secure our freedom....and I think we can and have done it without cutting off the heads of anyone....we do more to accommodate the needs of prisoners than anybody else in the world.....
We have lead the world in giving food, supplies, money, and support to assure those who desire freedom.....
This waterboarding, is an extreme measure that has been used, sparingly but effectively.....and when done properly, is a physically safe tactic that has been successful in getting important information to keep Americans safe....
What leverage do we have left, to assure our freedoms....it is tying our hands.....and when the next attack comes....and it COULD have been aborted, simply by receiving pertinent information by those, in our captive confides.....it WILL be an extremely sad day.
So, I mention other countries and you bring up the actions of terrorists...not the same thing...but I'm sure the difference is lost on you two as I'm also sure that if an American were treated that way by government officials of another country y'all would be all up at arms full of rationalizations and accusations about what awful people they are. In other words, torture is a good thing if WE do it. :rolleyes:
IT IS NOT TORTURE!!!!!! The people who use the methods are put under the same treatment so they will not only know how it feels but how to do it properly. Our special forces are subjected to it to prepare them in case they are captured. Torture is being beaten, having your fingernails torn out one by one, being put through a plastic shredder feet first, having your arms and/or legs broken, having one finger at a time cut off......shall I name more?
Let me ask this. How would you go about getting information from a prisoner?
Cute definition of "torture". Make that up yourself did you?
No, as a matter of fact those are methods some of our enemy's have used. Read an actual history book.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 24, 2009, 01:10:33 PM
So, I mention other countries and you bring up the actions of terrorists...not the same thing...but I'm sure the difference is lost on you two as I'm also sure that if an American were treated that way by government officials of another country y'all would be all up at arms full of rationalizations and accusations about what awful people they are. In other words, torture is a good thing if WE do it. :rolleyes:
First of all, where did I mention terrorists?.............Secondly, I would be gratefull, if ALL our enemy did was waterboard my soldier instead of sawing his head off!! or having his eyelids cutoff...or having bamboo shoots hammered under his fingernails....or having his genitals hooked up to a car battery...THOSE are physically damaging and deadly....
I said from the beginning, countries got to do what they got to do....I say, if you harm ONE of our soldiers, in ANY way, shape or form....there will be consequences to pay....you call that being a bully....I call it standing up for freedom.
the whole thing is an ugly issue...and I wish there was NO need for it....but unfortunately, it DOES happen...at least, the US has/was taken the high road, but still able to obtain information that HAS aborted missions that would have taken American lives.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 24, 2009, 01:27:11 PM
Cute definition of "torture". Make that up yourself did you?
You still haven't answered my question. How would you suggest we get information which may save American lives?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 24, 2009, 01:46:23 PMSecondly, I would be gratefull, if ALL our enemy did was waterboard my soldier instead of sawing his head off!! or having his eyelids cutoff...or having bamboo shoots hammered under his fingernails....or having his genitals hooked up to a car battery...THOSE are physically damaging and deadly....
I said from the beginning, countries got to do what they got to do....I say, if you harm ONE of our soldiers, in ANY way, shape or form....there will be consequences to pay....you call that being a bully....I call it standing up for freedom.
Looks to me like you have too different motives going on here. First you talk about using torture to obtain information, and then this last post sounds like you want retribution.
Just this week we learned that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was subjected to waterboarding 183 times. How much information did they think he had? Or was it just that he never told them anything, so they figured number 182, 3, 4, ... was the magic key?
To get any kind of real evaluation of the usefulness of an interrogation technique, we must be able to judge the truth of the information revealed, and the amount of time it takes to obtain truthful information. All the figures I have seen say the info revealed under any interrogation technique (including torture) ranges from real old news to fantasy-land, with an occasional factoid of value thrown in. So how do we judge what is real?
The time-honored police method of paid informants has a pretty good track record. So long as the government is tossing my money around, I would be happier if the CIA bought some information that could then be verified, rather than tormenting some fanatic until he told them aliens had aligned with his jihad, and were burrowing up from the center of the earth.
Now, before you go telling me about how they deserve it, because they beheaded people, I must point out I don't believe the beheading netted any information useful to their cause -- especially after the fact! And as a purported Christian, I am shocked that you even suggest sinking to their level.
Personally, if you fed me brussel sprouts and played non-stop elevator music at a high volume, I would tell you everything you wanted to know. Whether it was true or not.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 24, 2009, 08:44:59 AM
Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....THAT is gone now.
Would you serve in your country's military...oh, that's right, you didn't.
Quote from: LOsborne on April 24, 2009, 06:47:22 PM
Now, before you go telling me about how they deserve it, because they beheaded people, I must point out I don't believe the beheading netted any information useful to their cause -- especially after the fact! And as a purported Christian, I am shocked that you even suggest sinking to their level.
Can you say hypocrite?
QuotePersonally, if you fed me brussel sprouts...
Don't be doggin' brussel sprouts; they're yummy!
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 09:20:35 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 24, 2009, 08:44:59 AM
Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....THAT is gone now.
Would you serve in your country's military...oh, that's right, you didn't.
what is your point?........my SON is serving....simply because I did not has NO bearing on my question.........Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....
When torture is used to protect the United States, the country's greatest virtue is destroyed by its own citizenry.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 09:26:20 AM
what is your point?........my SON is serving....simply because I did not has NO bearing on my question.........Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....
My point is that the country's security wasn't convenient for you when you were younger so why is it now?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403552.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403552.html)
OVER THE past two weeks, the world has been inundated with specifics about the abuse of terrorism suspects during the Bush administration: repeated episodes of waterboarding, snarling dogs, forced nudity, severe sleep deprivation, extended confinement in small, dark boxes.
Yet it is clear from a recently released and well-documented report by the Senate Armed Services Committee that such abuses were not committed by rogue service members or CIA agents who took matters into their own hands. The extreme interrogation methods were, according to the report, sought out and authorized by administration officials at the highest levels, including then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.
-- Maj. Carrie Ricci and Maj. Nathan Hoepner of the Army - "We need to take a deep breath and remember who we are . . . . We are American soldiers, heirs of a long tradition of staying on the high ground. We need to stay there."
-- Navy Capt. Daniel Donovan "I fail to see how anyone can reasonably say that employing such techniques against those in our custody is worthy of the United States, no matter how much we may need the information."
-- Air Force Col. Steven Kleinman, who intervened to stop an interrogation in which a detainee was subjected to prolonged kneeling and was slapped after answering every question.
-- Marine Lt. Col. Stuart Couch, a military prosecutor who refused to participate in cases after learning about detainee abuse.
Time and time again, civilians and political leaders pressed service members to use tougher, harsher and in some instances almost certainly illegal methods. Time and time again, the men and women in uniform -- those who put their lives on the line for this country -- were the ones who pushed back. It's a shame that so many of the civilians in the Bush administration failed to heed their advice.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 09:30:59 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 09:26:20 AM
what is your point?........my SON is serving....simply because I did not has NO bearing on my question.........Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....
My point is that the country's security wasn't convenient for you when you were younger so why is it now?
it was peace time when I was younger....our military was strong....and, in hindsite, I wish I would have joined....I listened to my parents, who thought getting a job and going to school was a better way for me.
now...Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 10:02:01 AM
now...Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....
No but I would waterboard you and worse to protect the integrity of the country and Constitution that I swore to uphold.
Americans do not torture.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 10:09:17 AM
Americans do not torture.
Which is what our own military is saying in the Senate Armed Services Committee report.
It bears repeating ....
"We are American soldiers, heirs of a long tradition of staying on the high ground. We need to stay there."
We do not need to consider what other countries do or don't do. We need to do what is best for our security and welfare period. Look at these countries history and you see genoside of religions or races, torture, terrorism, piracy,imprisonment,etc for what ever the gov. wants. I will take American ways any day.
I noticed that you did not list Nancy Pelosi and her gang that signed off on this to begin with and now lying about it.
Would I use water boarding to get info for security of Americans, Yes!
There has been worse done thru out time and we ignored it then. You are so quick to critisize the US but not others for their behavior. Interesting! So it is ok whatever they do but not us. If we were going by their standards we would be doing alot worse. Think about it!
Quote from: Bo D on April 27, 2009, 10:13:56 AM
Which is what our own military is saying in the Senate Armed Services Committee report.
It bears repeating ....
"We are American soldiers, heirs of a long tradition of staying on the high ground. We need to stay there."
Perhaps had Henry not listened to his parents and actually served his country, he would better understand how offensive this is to those us have and did so honorably.
Quote from: mcgonser on April 27, 2009, 10:14:42 AM
Would I use water boarding to get info for security of Americans, Yes!
Of course you would because when you start from a position of no character, ethics or integrity, you have nothing to lose.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 10:09:17 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 10:02:01 AM
now...Would you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....
No but I would waterboard you and worse to protect the integrity of the country and Constitution that I swore to uphold.
Americans do not torture.
are you not an a American?.....you would torture those of us, who have NOT forgotten that there are people out there who WILL fly a plane into a building to KILL Americans...
are you that naive to think our military has NEVER used torture of the course of history?
I think we ARE taking the High Ground when it comes to techniques like waterboarding....and our Military's number one job is keeping America safe....and do think it should be
limited and used only in desperate measures on those who we are certain to have information about what we reasonably believe is an imminent threat to our security....
Quote from: mcgonser on April 27, 2009, 10:14:42 AM
I will take American ways any day.
And THIS is the American way!
"We are American soldiers, heirs of a long tradition of staying on the high ground. We need to stay there."
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 10:34:00 AM
...what we reasonably believe is an imminent threat to our security....
The only imminent threat to our security is people like you who obviously don't have a clue what this country stands for.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 10:52:08 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 10:34:00 AM
...what we reasonably believe is an imminent threat to our security....
The only imminent threat to our security is people like you who obviously don't have a clue what this country stands for.
bullshit Ex..........we are facing an enemy like we have never faced before....it is unprecedented times....I am NOT advocating that we torture prisoners........but, I think there HAS to be an exception to the rule....and allow our military to use certain means to assure our security.....I know exactly what our country stands for....and if more of us don't stand up for it, it will not be standing much longer.......have you forgotten what happened on 9/11?..I have NOT..
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 11:00:04 AM
bullshit Ex..........we are facing an enemy like we have never faced before....it is unprecedented times....I am NOT advocating that we torture prisoners........but, I think there HAS to be an exception to the rule....and allow our military to use certain means to assure our security.....I know exactly what our country stands for....and if more of us don't stand up for it, it will not be standing much longer.......have you forgotten what happened on 9/11?..I have NOT..
So torture is ok if you're a coward; right? That's essentially what you're saying...if we're scared enough, we can do whatever we feel is necessary to make us feel safe. That's the difference between people like you and people like me. You claim that torture is the only way to defend the American way of life and I believe that the American way of life is that we don't torture, ergo, your 'defense' tactic destroys exactly that which it claims to preserve.
I would rather die bravely with integrity than live as a coward whose core values are so easily manipulated by fear.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 11:13:24 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 11:00:04 AM
bullshit Ex..........we are facing an enemy like we have never faced before....it is unprecedented times....I am NOT advocating that we torture prisoners........but, I think there HAS to be an exception to the rule....and allow our military to use certain means to assure our security.....I know exactly what our country stands for....and if more of us don't stand up for it, it will not be standing much longer.......have you forgotten what happened on 9/11?..I have NOT..
So torture is ok if you're a coward; right? That's essentially what you're saying...if we're scared enough, we can do whatever we feel is necessary to make us feel safe. That's the difference between people like you and people like me. You claim that torture is the only way to defend the American way of life and I believe that the American way of life is that we don't torture, ergo, your 'defense' tactic destroys exactly that which it claims to preserve.
I would rather die bravely with integrity than live as a coward whose core values are so easily manipulated by fear.
I think you are being asinine and as usual pompass...there is NOTHING cowardass in saving lives.....and I never said torture is the only way to defend the American way of life...all I am saying IS...waterboarding CAN be an effective way of gaining valuable information from certain individuals to save American Lives...and this has been reported as indeed true by our CIA...keeping American SAFE from a group of people who will stop at no means to bring us down....why can't you understand that?...
I think you don't have a clue about the principles on which this country was founded and that you have none of your own either.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 11:32:58 AM
I think you don't have a clue about the principles on which this country was founded and that you have none of your own either.
and you would be wrong too...
I doubt it; real principles don't waver based on your level of fear.
Why would anyone work under the assumption that torture is the only way to "keep America safe"?
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 27, 2009, 01:29:42 PM
Why would anyone work under the assumption that torture is the only way to "keep America safe"?
again, I never, ever stated that torture is the only way to "keep America safe"....I just don't think we should tell the world that we would NEVER do what ever it takes to keep us safe...like I said before, these are unprecedented times...
and I AM against torture....at least in the terms of physical abuse is done...or where bodily harm IS inflicted...and then it should only be done, when are certain to have information about what we reasonably believe is an imminent threat to our security....
Hogwash, it's either morally wrong or it's not; ethics are not situational.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 02:31:26 PM
Hogwash, it's either morally wrong or it's not; ethics are not situational.
that is like saying it is wrong for congress to spend money.......that is part of their job........but NOT to the extent they are spending these days....same with this......It is wrong to brutally abuse anyone...always....but, in situtations like these guys have created, and have information that is going to kill Americans, we need to bend, but don't break on this interrogation techniques...
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 02:31:26 PM
Hogwash, it's either morally wrong or it's not; ethics are not situational.
Are the commandments bendable as well?
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 02:31:26 PM
Hogwash, it's either morally wrong or it's not; ethics are not situational.
Are the commandments bendable as well?
Thanks to Jesus, they are! ;)
Ridiculous. :no:
snappy comeback... ;)
btw...
President Obama's national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/) last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.
"High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country," Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday...
Quote from: Exterminator on April 27, 2009, 02:31:26 PM
Hogwash, it's either morally wrong or it's not; ethics are not situational.
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 10:02:01 AMWould you waterboard a terrorist to save thousands of American lives?.....
Your basic premise is a fallacy. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was subjected to waterboarding 183 times. No American lives were saved as a result. Aside from the gut-level ick factor, torture is too time consuming. True Believers always give us the "ticking bomb" analogy, where we must torture the location of the nuke out of the terrorist in the next thirty minutes. If the terrorist knows he only has to hold out thirty minutes, he'll do it. The more creative of them will drag many red herrings across the radar for our Rambos to go haring off after, while the clock ticks down. There is no real way to test the truth of anything revealed under torture. The Inquisition taught us that.
And if time isn't of desperate importance, why not interrogate with some trusty psychological methods that we
know will work, given enough time? I still think you bloodthirsty pro-torture Torquemadas just want to punish someone. I think you get off on the idea.
Talk about an ICK factor!
I can't believe that supposedly civilized people even consider torture.
Well, ya know it worked so well during the Salem witch trials.
Found lots of them there baaaaaaad wimmmens.
Alls it tooks was a few stones set right there on them females, er mebbe a dunkin' tank -- kinda like waterboardin' ya know.
Yep. Rooted them witches right out -- they corn-fessed.
My mother tortured us....spankings until someone confessed. Sometimes, I would confess just so it would stop. It was a lie.....so I'm guessing torture isn't really a good way to get at the truth.
Torture is BS, should never have happened. However, now that it has.....I think it was a very bad idea for Obama to bring this public and let it play out for the whole world to see. This is going to drag on a be an ugly mess. Sooner or later, some of our troops are going to get tagged. They are the ones who will pay the price (again). We'll be shocked but have no defense to stand on because we did it too.
I'm not saying to sweep this under the rug, but going public.....no good can come from this.
What are we going to do, convict Bush and Cheaney, and put them up in a country club 'prison'. Where does it start and stop.....fugly fugly fugly.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the "straw man" fallacy, but for those who aren't here is a quick explanation:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y.
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
Henry has given us a textbook example of the straw man fallacy.
Quote from: LOsborne on April 28, 2009, 07:38:28 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the "straw man" fallacy, but for those who aren't here is a quick explanation:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y.
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
Henry has given us a textbook example of the straw man fallacy.
you can call it whatever........it is just food for thought.........that is ALL i meant it to be....nothing more ...nothing less
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
Hey, those people are only trying to preserve their way of life; you couldn't possibly have a problem with that?
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 09:47:34 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
Hey, those people are only trying to preserve their way of life; you couldn't possibly have a problem with that?
not until they fly planes into buildings and cut off the heads of our soldiers.
Quote from: pariann on April 27, 2009, 07:26:53 PM
I can't believe that supposedly civilized people even consider torture.
You've answered your own question; these aren't civilized people, they're animals.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 28, 2009, 09:49:54 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 09:47:34 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
Hey, those people are only trying to preserve their way of life; you couldn't possibly have a problem with that?
not until they fly planes into buildings and cut off the heads of our soldiers.
Based on your logic, the Romans were perfectly justified in torturing Jesus...they were only trying to preserve their way of life and using him as an example. He deserved what he got for questioning their authority.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 09:52:50 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 28, 2009, 09:49:54 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 09:47:34 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
Hey, those people are only trying to preserve their way of life; you couldn't possibly have a problem with that?
not until they fly planes into buildings and cut off the heads of our soldiers.
Based on your logic, the Romans were perfectly justified in torturing Jesus...they were only trying to preserve their way of life and using him as an example. He deserved what he got for questioning their authority.
very lame attempt.... :rolleyes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 28, 2009, 10:06:32 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 09:52:50 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 28, 2009, 09:49:54 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 09:47:34 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
Hey, those people are only trying to preserve their way of life; you couldn't possibly have a problem with that?
not until they fly planes into buildings and cut off the heads of our soldiers.
Based on your logic, the Romans were perfectly justified in torturing Jesus...they were only trying to preserve their way of life and using him as an example. He deserved what he got for questioning their authority.
very lame attempt.... :rolleyes:
Nope, not at all, douche, it's either justified in preserving your way of life or it's not...no middle ground.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 10:08:10 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 28, 2009, 10:06:32 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 09:52:50 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 28, 2009, 09:49:54 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 28, 2009, 09:47:34 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
Hey, those people are only trying to preserve their way of life; you couldn't possibly have a problem with that?
not until they fly planes into buildings and cut off the heads of our soldiers.
Based on your logic, the Romans were perfectly justified in torturing Jesus...they were only trying to preserve their way of life and using him as an example. He deserved what he got for questioning their authority.
very lame attempt.... :rolleyes:
Nope, not at all, douche, it's either justified in preserving your way of life or it's not...no middle ground.
Just for arguments sake........Jesus was telling the truth...that's is all he did.....
you really need a vaction or something...because your logic is not TOO logical... :no:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 28, 2009, 10:11:51 AM
Just for arguments sake........Jesus was telling the truth...that's is all he did.....
For all you know, the people being waterboarded were telling the truth as well.
Quoteyou really need a vaction or something...because your logic is not TOO logical... :no:
Just because you're too dim-witted to understand something doesn't mean it isn't logical.
again Ex...........a very, very lame attempt.. :no:
Go with that. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
I see Henry to tried to justify his straw man by calling it "food for thought." BZZZZZT! There was no thought involved in that hysterical slur. There wasn't even a logical progression from one act to the other. But thank you for playing.
Breaking it down to simple words, Henry tried to say those who oppose torture favor abortion on demand. This is a propaganda technique known as a "false analogy." Y'all owe it to yourselves to become familiar with propaganda techniques, so as a public service I am providing this link:
http://academic.cuesta.edu/acasupp/as/404.htm
Learning to recognize the way politicians, religious fanatics and corporate pirates manipulate us is a first requirement for becoming a critical thinker.
And for the record, Henry, Ex's logic was every bit as logical as yours ... more so in some cases.
And also for the record, calling a comment "lame," without demonstrating that comment's deficiency, usually means you can't think of a reasonable response. Or that you have exhausted your vocabulary.
Quote from: LOsborne on April 28, 2009, 06:58:20 PM
I see Henry to tried to justify his straw man by calling it "food for thought." BZZZZZT! There was no thought involved in that hysterical slur. There wasn't even a logical progression from one act to the other. But thank you for playing.
Breaking it down to simple words, Henry tried to say those who oppose torture favor abortion on demand.
The majority of the people who are against waterboarding are for abortion which includes partial birth abortion which involves just what Henry said.
QuoteQuote from: Henry Hawk on April 27, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
yet many of you think waterboarding a known terrorist is absolute horrible torture and completely immoral..but pulling baby's head out of mother, sucking brain out with long needle is acceptable alternative to contraception....
Quote from: me on April 28, 2009, 09:38:27 PM
The majority of the people who are against waterboarding are for abortion which includes partial birth abortion which involves just what Henry said.
You want to give us a source for that absurd generalization, or shall we all just assume you are pulling "facks" out of your butt, as usual?
Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Harry Reid, well, the major part of congress, Ex, you, Sandy, Dan, and the list goes on......
I'm not for abortion. :no:
I wasn't on that list, but I'm not for it either. I think giving birth to 9 kids might be evidence of that. :wink:
But I'm not for torture, as well, so I guess I wouldn't have been on the list and there really is no need to defend my position, huh?
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 28, 2009, 11:02:43 PM
I'm not for abortion. :no:
You are of the opinion that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion which, yes, I understand that is a personal choice, but that includes killing baby's who can live outside of the womb, partial birth abortion, and, I'm sorry, but that shouldn't even be an option. What they, the doctors, do to abort those baby's is just wrong and it is torture.
Quote from: LOsborne on April 28, 2009, 06:58:20 PM
Learning to recognize the way politicians, religious fanatics and corporate pirates manipulate us is a first requirement for becoming a critical thinker.
But they don't want to become critical thinkers; it would shatter their little make-believe world.
Quote from: me on April 28, 2009, 11:47:58 PM
You are of the opinion that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion which, yes, I understand that is a personal choice, but that includes killing baby's who can live outside of the womb, partial birth abortion, and, I'm sorry, but that shouldn't even be an option. What they, the doctors, do to abort those baby's is just wrong and it is torture.
That's such a bullshit argument; partial birth abortions amount to less than one fourth of one percent of all abortions and have been banned since 2003 except in cases where the mother's health is in danger.
Quote from: me on April 28, 2009, 10:41:25 PM
Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Harry Reid, well, the major part of congress, Ex, you, Sandy, Dan, and the list goes on......
That's not a source, cupcake. That's an unverified list (for one thing, I have never stated an opinion on abortion; for another, Sandy flatly denies your allegation) that you made up out of your warped imagination. You said, "majority of the people who are against waterboarding are for abortion." You listed seven people. That's not a "majority of the people." It's not a source. And it's not verifiable.
I'm beginning to understand why you seem to have no creditability on this board. Except as the standing joke.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 07:18:33 AM
But they don't want to become critical thinkers; it would shatter their little make-believe world.
I don't think
me even wants to become a thinker. The adjective is unnecessary.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 07:19:07 AM
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 28, 2009, 11:02:43 PM
I'm not for abortion. :no:
No one is for abortion.
bullcrap... :rolleyes:...those who choose to abort their baby are
FOR abortion.......or they would NOT have CHOOSEN to have one....
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 07:27:34 AM
That's such a bullshit argument; partial birth abortions amount to less than one fourth of one percent of all abortions and have been banned since 2003 except in cases where the mother's health is in danger.
not sure WHERE you got your info...but the info I have read claims there are about 20,000 babies (http://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.htm#stages) in the US that are aborted after week 21....I'm not sure how many WAS done to protect the life of the mother....but that seems like an alarming amount of very cruel deaths.
So now those who differ in opinion are standing jokes and have no credibility....sheesh you are such a putz.... :rolleyes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 08:29:00 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 07:27:34 AM
That's such a bullshit argument; partial birth abortions amount to less than one fourth of one percent of all abortions and have been banned since 2003 except in cases where the mother's health is in danger.
not sure WHERE you got your info...but the info I have read claims there are about 20,000 babies (http://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.htm#stages) in the US that are aborted after week 21....I'm not sure how many WAS done to protect the life of the mother....but that seems like an alarming amount of very cruel deaths.
Uh, it's against the law! (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00001531----000-.html)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 08:09:40 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 07:19:07 AM
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 28, 2009, 11:02:43 PM
I'm not for abortion. :no:
No one is for abortion.
bullcrap... :rolleyes:...those who choose to abort their baby are FOR abortion.......or they would NOT have CHOOSEN to have one....
That's like saying that people are going out and getting pregnant just so they can have an abortion and is a ridiculous assertion.
and Henry I'm sure I've never said that I had an abortion...your comment sounds like an assumption.
I recognize a woman's right to chose for herself. A woman has the right to choose what's right for her without considering what you or I think, feel, believe and that's the way it should be. I don't have a problem with that, but it doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 29, 2009, 09:34:15 AM
and Henry I'm sure I've never said that I had an abortion...your comment sounds like an assumption.
I recognize a woman's right to chose for herself. A woman has the right to choose what's right for her without considering what you or I think, feel, believe and that's the way it should be. I don't have a problem with that, but it doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion.
Sandy, I assure you I was not insinuating any such thing about you....my comment was directed at EX...where he said; that no one was FOR abortion...and I say, that if anyone HAS an abortion, they are obviously FOR an abortion...or they would NOT have one.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 10:25:29 AM
Sandy, I assure you I was not insinuating any such thing about you....my comment was directed at EX...where he said; that no one was FOR abortion...and I say, that if anyone HAS an abortion, they are obviously FOR an abortion...or they would NOT have one.
So people are
for brain surgery or
for heart bypasses? Ridiculous but back to the original subject...you are obviously
for torture.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 10:39:08 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 10:25:29 AM
Sandy, I assure you I was not insinuating any such thing about you....my comment was directed at EX...where he said; that no one was FOR abortion...and I say, that if anyone HAS an abortion, they are obviously FOR an abortion...or they would NOT have one.
So people are for brain surgery or for heart bypasses? Ridiculous but back to the original subject...you are obviously for torture.
Yes, I believe nobody has any ethical disclosure for brain or heart surgeries?...stupid analogy Ex...not a good comparison at all...
and I am for keeping America safe.....I am NOT in favor of torture, in the meaning of physically or brutally abusing anyone....but I do believe in utilizing interrogation tactics that CAN produce information that will keep Americans safe.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 11:06:56 AM
Yes, I believe nobody has any ethical disclosure for brain or heart surgeries?
Really? Christian Scientists do; should they be able to prevent you from having these medical procedures based on their religious/ethical beliefs because that is precisely what you are suggesting should be the case for abortion.
Quote...stupid analogy Ex...not a good comparison at all...
A line of thinking doesn't become stupid just because you're not bright enough to follow it.
Quoteand I am for keeping America safe.....I am NOT in favor of torture, in the meaning of physically or brutally abusing anyone....but I do believe in utilizing interrogation tactics that CAN produce information that will keep Americans safe.
You're a religious hypocrite is what you are.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 11:23:24 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 11:06:56 AM
Yes, I believe nobody has any ethical disclosure for brain or heart surgeries?
Really? Christian Scientists do; should they be able to prevent you from having these medical procedures based on their religious/ethical beliefs because that is precisely what you are suggesting should be the case for abortion.
Quote...stupid analogy Ex...not a good comparison at all...
A line of thinking doesn't become stupid just because you're not bright enough to follow it.
Quoteand I am for keeping America safe.....I am NOT in favor of torture, in the meaning of physically or brutally abusing anyone....but I do believe in utilizing interrogation tactics that CAN produce information that will keep Americans safe.
You're a religious hypocrite is what you are.
and your an arrogant ass....
now what?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 11:31:05 AM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 11:23:24 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 11:06:56 AM
Yes, I believe nobody has any ethical disclosure for brain or heart surgeries?
Really? Christian Scientists do; should they be able to prevent you from having these medical procedures based on their religious/ethical beliefs because that is precisely what you are suggesting should be the case for abortion.
Quote...stupid analogy Ex...not a good comparison at all...
A line of thinking doesn't become stupid just because you're not bright enough to follow it.
Quoteand I am for keeping America safe.....I am NOT in favor of torture, in the meaning of physically or brutally abusing anyone....but I do believe in utilizing interrogation tactics that CAN produce information that will keep Americans safe.
You're a religious hypocrite is what you are.
and your an arrogant ass....
now what?
At least I'm an arrogant ass who understands the value of preserving the honor of the uniform he once wore and not some coward who's done nothing more in his life than pay lip service to his country's safety.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 11:35:36 AM
[At least I'm an arrogant ass who understands the value of preserving the honor of the uniform he once wore and not some coward who's done nothing more in his life than pay lip service to his country's safety.
simply because I never served, has NO impact on my ability to understand the value of those who serve/served our country...nor does it make me a coward.
and furthermore, simply because you wore a military uniform makes you anymore knowledgeable about the integrity of this country or what it stands for....there has been plenty of garbage, that once wore the uniform....
Now, before you jump on me....I am going to say, I honestly do have 'some' respect for you...and appreciated YOUR service....I enjoy our conversing....but you are wrong, a whole lot more than you think you are, on many issues....you have simply convinced yourself into believing certain things....imo.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 11:45:22 AM
simply because I never served, has NO impact on my ability to understand the value of those who serve/served our country...nor does it make me a coward.
and furthermore, simply because you wore a military uniform makes you anymore knowledgeable about the integrity of this country or what it stands for....there has been plenty of garbage, that once wore the uniform....
Yeah, go with all of that. :rolleyes:
QuoteNow, before you jump on me....I am going to say, I honestly do have 'some' respect for you...and appreciated YOUR service....I enjoy our conversing....but you are wrong, a whole lot more than you think you are, on many issues....you have simply convinced yourself into believing certain things....imo.
Your fellow Christians agree with me. (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/february/23.32.html)
And I note that you conveniently avoided the question about whether or not Christian Scientists should be able to dictate to which medical procedure you have access. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 11:54:20 AM
And I note that you conveniently avoided the question about whether or not Christian Scientists should be able to dictate to which medical procedure you have access. :rolleyes:
I'm not really into researching Christian Science....and there IS no comparison between killing an innocent baby and elective surgery.
Except for the fact that an abortion is elective.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 11:52:54 AM
Your fellow Christians agree with me. (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/february/23.32.html)
So are you going to ignore this
Christianity Today article.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 12:11:31 PM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 11:52:54 AM
Your fellow Christians agree with me. (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/february/23.32.html)
So are you going to ignore this Christianity Today article.
i read it and i disagree with it...
next
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 12:12:26 PM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 12:11:31 PM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 11:52:54 AM
Your fellow Christians agree with me. (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/february/23.32.html)
So are you going to ignore this Christianity Today article.
i read it and i disagree with it...
next
Of course you do. There's such a cohesiveness about this whole Christianity thing; I can certainly understand why you find it to be the ultimate truth. [\sarcasm]
Ex: The percentage of Americans who have actually served in our armed forces really isn't all that high, is it? Yet not having a military background absolutely does not preclude an individual from loving his (or her) country, feeling patriotic, or having strong opinions about the direction the country is heading. I am certain that your service-- which I want to thank you for-- has a strong influence on the positions you take, as well it should. And it's quite likely that had Henry done a stint in uniform, his opinions might take a different tack; obviously his viewpoint would be different. But to demean him for not having served is wrong, and to infer that he is somehow less of a man, or unfit to have feelings of patriotism, is way wrong. I think that Hank's love of country is pretty obvious to most of us, whether we agree with his stances or not. JMHO, Pa
Quote from: Ma and Pa on April 29, 2009, 12:28:52 PM
And it's quite likely that had Henry done a stint in uniform, his opinions might take a different tack; obviously his viewpoint would be different.
And that is my point...he doesn't have to worry about tarnishing the honor of a uniform he never wore.
QuoteI think that Hank's love of country is pretty obvious to most of us, whether we agree with his stances or not. JMHO, Pa
I'm sure he thinks he does but I would submit that if that were true, he would be against anything that tarnishes our image of being a country with more character than a band of savage barbarians.
Gotcha Henry, thanks for explaining I misread.
As for torture, I think you agree with Ex more than you think and perhaps the slight antagonism between you...keeps you from seeing it. You said that you don't support torture but you do support the right to interrogate. I don't think anyone would disagree with interrogation sans torture.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 29, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
As for torture, I think you agree with Ex more than you think and perhaps the slight antagonism between you...keeps you from seeing it. You said that you don't support torture but you do support the right to interrogate. I don't think anyone would disagree with interrogation sans torture.
Not true...go back and re-read the thread; his attitude is that the ends justify the means.
I noticed that, but his opinion seemed to evolve based on his last post.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 29, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
As for torture, I think you agree with Ex more than you think and perhaps the slight antagonism between you...keeps you from seeing it. You said that you don't support torture but you do support the right to interrogate. I don't think anyone would disagree with interrogation sans torture.
Not true...go back and re-read the thread; his attitude is that the ends justify the means.
sometimes is does!
My biggest complaint with Obama and the Waterboarding deal is.........I dont think we OWE anybody any apologies....and stating that we will NOT do what ever it takes to keep America secure is asinine...I am against using brutal and phyically harming methods of interogations....but, I am even more against telling our enemies things that they do not need to know....and I am very serious, and If I was President, I would tell those responsible for keeping us safe to do what ever it takes within the law.
I'm sorry, I can't see post numbers, but it wasn't the last post...it was about 11:30ish.
Quote from: pariann on April 29, 2009, 12:08:07 PM
Except for the fact that an abortion is elective.
To alot of people abortion is not elective surgery, it is murder.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 29, 2009, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 01:03:44 PM
Not true...go back and re-read the thread; his attitude is that the ends justify the means.
sometimes is does!
You just don't get it do you? If we compromise our principles, they win.
QuoteMy biggest complaint with Obama and the Waterboarding deal is.........I dont think we OWE anybody any apologies....and stating that we will NOT do what ever it takes to keep America secure is asinine...I am against using brutal and phyically harming methods of interogations...
If you think that waterboarding does not have lasting physical effects, you need to read up on it a little more.
Quote...but, I am even more against telling our enemies things that they do not need to know....and I am very serious, and If I was President, I would tell those responsible for keeping us safe to do what ever it takes within the law.
And torture, including waterboarding, is
not within the law.
sometimes is does![/quote]
You just don't get it do you? If we compromise our principles, they win.
How come torturing is now wrong when it has been done since the beginning of time in interogation?
QuoteMy biggest complaint with Obama and the Waterboarding deal is.........I dont think we OWE anybody any apologies....and stating that we will NOT do what ever it takes to keep America secure is asinine...I am against using brutal and phyically harming methods of interogations...
If you think that waterboarding does not have lasting physical effects, you need to read up on it a little more.
Beheading has lasting physical effects too. Its also torture and not ok in any circumstances. What about that.
Quote from: mcgonser on April 29, 2009, 01:34:05 PM
Quote from: pariann on April 29, 2009, 12:08:07 PM
Except for the fact that an abortion is elective.
To alot of people abortion is not elective surgery, it is murder.
Elective: In medicine, something chosen (elected). An elective procedure is one that is chosen (elected) by the patient or physician that is advantageous to the patient but is not urgent.
Elective surgery is decided by the patient or their doctor. The procedure is seen as beneficial but not absolutely essential at that time.
Quote from: mcgonser on April 29, 2009, 01:44:30 PM
How come torturing is now wrong when it has been done since the beginning of time in interogation?
Beheading has lasting physical effects too. Its also torture and not ok in any circumstances. What about that.
Do you really not know?
Hitler gassed jews; does that make it ok for everyone to gas people? We are the United States; we should be setting the example we would like for the rest of the world to follow. Do we want that example to be torture?
You all really just don't get it do you? The method was ok'ed by congress, it was not done illegally. All the posturing now is being done to distract people from what is really going on with all these spending bills and taxes being added to this and that and government taking over private businesses and banks. A lot of the more important stuff isn't even being reported by the mainstream networks or it's just briefly mentioned and they're sticking to the stories that distract and create diversion. Go ahead and laugh, I know you will, but ya better open your eyes and really pay attention.
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 02:24:56 PM
You all really just don't get it do you? The method was ok'ed by congress, it was not done illegally.
No, it wasn't ok'd by Congress; you're the one who doesn't get it and is this an example of the 'compassion' you accuse me of not having? Another "Christian" hypocrite, I see...
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 02:36:48 PM
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 02:24:56 PM
You all really just don't get it do you? The method was ok'ed by congress, it was not done illegally.
No, it wasn't ok'd by Congress; you're the one who doesn't get it and is this an example of the 'compassion' you accuse me of not having? Another "Christian" hypocrite, I see...
Ex, I am an
agnostic....get it....
A G N O S T I C I hate to admit it but I could not pass a quize on the Bible because I have never read it so ya can't pull that "Christian" hypocrite stuff on me it won't work.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 11:35:36 AM
At least I'm an arrogant ass who understands the value of preserving the honor of the uniform he once wore and not some coward who's done nothing more in his life than pay lip service to his country's safety.
The more I think about the fact that you keep bringing this up to Henry like he would feel any differently if he had served in the military the more I wonder what makes you think that would make a difference in how he feels about waterboarding. I was also wondering which branch, for how long, and where did you serve?
Quote from: mcgonser on April 29, 2009, 01:44:30 PM
Beheading has lasting physical effects too. Its also torture and not ok in any circumstances. What about that.
Ummmm.... have I missed the news reports about all the critical information the mujahadeem got from the people they had beheaded? The point of the interrogation exercise is to obtain useful information, capeesh? I'm pretty sure severed heads don't talk.
Now it sounds (again) like all you want it revenge.You're playing grade-school justice, saying "Why isn't it okay for me to do it, when he did it first? And he did it worst! That's not f-a-a-a-i-i-r-r!" It isn't okay, because we're supposed to be better than that.
Beheadings are meant to scare people into submission not obtain information to save lives.
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 02:24:56 PM
You all really just don't get it do you? The method was ok'ed by congress, it was not done illegally.
Where do you get this stuff? The whole reason there is such a fuss about the torture memo is that torture is
illegal!
Quote from: LOsborne on April 29, 2009, 06:57:42 PM
Ummmm.... have I missed the news reports about all the critical information the mujahadeem got from the people they had beheaded? The point of the interrogation exercise is to obtain useful information, capeesh? I'm pretty sure severed heads don't talk.
Now it sounds (again) like all you want it revenge.You're playing grade-school justice, saying "Why isn't it okay for me to do it, when he did it first? And he did it worst! That's not f-a-a-a-i-i-r-r!" It isn't okay, because we're supposed to be better than that.
I'm guessing you didn't see The Signal :wink:
But waterboarding is not torture. Congress, including Nancy Pelosi, ok'ed it. The whole fuss about it is diversion plain and simple.
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 07:02:55 PM
Beheadings are meant to scare people into submission not obtain information to save lives.
So you admit you aren't interested in life-saving information.
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 07:11:03 PM
But waterboarding is not torture. Congress, including Nancy Pelosi, ok'ed it.
Give me your source on this statement. Show me in black & white where Congress ruled waterboarding is not torture.
I have a source that says it is not approved.
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1193735029174
Quote from: LOsborne on April 29, 2009, 07:25:34 PM
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 07:02:55 PM
Beheadings are meant to scare people into submission not obtain information to save lives.
So you admit you aren't interested in life-saving information.
What????? Where did I say I approved of beheadings? Quit trying to twist things.
Quote from: pariann on April 29, 2009, 07:10:06 PMI'm guessing you didn't see The Signal :wink:
Oh shit. I missed it. Thanks for the heads-up, Pari.
LOL, yeah...according to the one guy....just hook a battery generator up to the brain...and the head will tell you everything you want to know. :wink:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1936971/posts
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124087403668161211.html
Your first source discusses a briefing four members of Congress received on waterboarding, SEVEN years ago. Seven years ago the United States had not yet started the second gulf war, so the discussion was academic. The source does not discuss legislation of any kind. The four members who received the briefing did not attempt to act on the information they received.
Your second source is an editorial (that's opinion, not news) discussing two efforts made by Congressional Democrats in 2006 and 2008 (the Bush years) to limit interrogation techniques to those defined in the Army field manual. The legislation (to prohibit waterboarding) passed, but was vetoed by President Bush.
Neither source contains ONE WORD about legislation to make waterboarding legal. You said (direct quote) "The method was ok'ed by congress, it was not done illegally." Show me the legislation in which Congress "ok'ed" waterboarding.
It's a simple request: SHOW (verb) LEGISLATION (direct object)
Quote from: pariann on April 29, 2009, 07:43:40 PM
....just hook a battery generator up to the brain...and the head will tell you everything you want to know.
Well sure, but how will we know that what the head said is
true? :fortune:
The threat of disconnecting the battery generator?
Oh wait I forgot. Never mind that you need to be able to breath to be able to talk....the head will most likely demand a cigarette before spilling the beans. If you have a butt on ya, you will be in business. :wink:
Quote from: pariann on April 29, 2009, 08:20:58 PM
If you have a butt on ya, you will be in business. :wink:
Considering the price of cigarettes today, that's pricey info. I'm gonna need a warranty.
What about my butt? :razz:
is it smokin' ?
ma thinks so :biggrin:
LOL.....sorry about the hijack.....but someone had to do something here.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 29, 2009, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 29, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
As for torture, I think you agree with Ex more than you think and perhaps the slight antagonism between you...keeps you from seeing it. You said that you don't support torture but you do support the right to interrogate. I don't think anyone would disagree with interrogation sans torture.
Not true...go back and re-read the thread; his attitude is that the ends justify the means.
Actually, I stand totally corrected...you're right. I saw a glimmer of hope, but I was mistaken. :-\
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 04:30:56 PM
I hate to admit it but I could not pass a quize on the Bible because I have never read it so ya can't pull that "Christian" hypocrite stuff on me it won't work.
Hell, you can't even spell 'quiz'!
Quote from: Exterminator on April 30, 2009, 07:26:39 AM
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 04:30:56 PM
I hate to admit it but I could not pass a quize on the Bible because I have never read it so ya can't pull that "Christian" hypocrite stuff on me it won't work.
Hell, you can't even spell 'quiz'!
Just wanted to give you something to do....you know...make you feel useful.... :razz:
Oh, was it like "one of these things doesn't belong"? :wink:
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 06:54:58 PM
The more I think about the fact that you keep bringing this up to Henry like he would feel any differently if he had served in the military the more I wonder what makes you think that would make a difference in how he feels about waterboarding.
It makes a difference in two ways. First, had he served in the military he would have had the Geneva Convention drilled into him time and time again during training and he would know that there are absolutely
no circumstances under which it is ok for a United States soldier (or anyone else at the service of the government) to torture or otherwise abuse a prisoner of war. It goes against everything for which our country stands; we simply don't do it.
Secondly, he would recognize that anyone who breaks those principles brings shame on everyone who does or has worn a uniform in his/her country's defense. He wouldn't be so quick to condone it if it were his reputation being besmirched.
QuoteI was also wondering which branch, for how long, and where did you serve?
United States Army Military Police, 3rd Armored Division.
Quote from: me on April 29, 2009, 07:11:03 PM
But waterboarding is not torture. Congress, including Nancy Pelosi, ok'ed it. The whole fuss about it is diversion plain and simple.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
What would your opinion be of someone who retired after 40yrs as a commissioned officer of the Air Force, someone who retired after 20yrs as the highest non-com officer who was in the Navy amphib assault who was in Beirut, someone who served 10yrs as a medic and was in Nam on the front lines, not thinking of waterboarding as torture?
Water boarding has been around for centuries. It was a common interrogation technique during the Italian Inquisition of the 1500s and was used perhaps most famously in Cambodian prisons during the reign of the Khmer Rouge regime during the 1970s. As late as November 2005, water boarding was on the CIA's list of approved "enhanced interrogation techniques" intended for use against high-value terror suspects. And according to memos released by the U.S. Department of Justice in April 2009, water boarding was among 10 torture techniques authorized for the interrogation of an al-Qaida operative. In a nutshell, water boarding makes a person feel like he is drowning.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/water-boarding.htm
Hmmm......thought I would look it up, since I didn't start reading this at the beginning of the thread, and i didn't know exactly what waterboarding is. According to the USDoJ....it's a torture technique. Because it's 'approved' doesn't mean it's not torture.
Quote from: me on April 30, 2009, 07:49:43 AM
What would your opinion be of someone who retired after 40yrs as a commissioned officer of the Air Force, someone who retired after 20yrs as the highest non-com officer who was in the Navy amphib assault who was in Beirut, someone who served 10yrs as a medic and was in Nam on the front lines, not thinking of waterboarding as torture?
I would say that I don't believe you and that I think you are tarnishing those people's service reords by putting words into their mouths. That notwithstanding, my older brother who retired as an officer after 30 years as a Military Police investigator and Criiminal Investigation Division (CID) chief and who is now a regional chief investigator for the Department of Defense says that is it absolutely torture and is illegal and I would submit that he is in a better position to understand the law than the people you've mentioned.
Great source link, Pariann.
I particularly enjoyed this paragraph:
In September 2006, the Bush administration faced widespread criticism regarding its refusal to sign a Congressional bill outlawing the use of torture techniques against all U.S. prisoners. That same month, the U.S. Department of Defense made it illegal for any member of the U.S. military to use the water-boarding technique. The CIA and its interrogators were unaffected by that new policy, as the CIA is not a branch of the U.S. military.
That pretty well answers the "it's legal" argument, doesn't it.
Quote from: LOsborne on April 30, 2009, 08:07:37 AM
That pretty well answers the "it's legal" argument, doesn't it.
Both the "it's legal" and "it's not torture" arguments pretty much.
This excerpt is interesting too:
...Khalid Sheik Mohammed, he reportedly lasted more than two minutes before confessing to everything of which he was accused. ...
Many CIA officials see water boarding as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you.
So we can add " it obtains valuable information" to the list of fairy tales.
Also, people should note that just because it's approved, doesn't make it legal either.
That's just saying you get permission from someone higher in authority than you to break the law.
So we've established that it's inhumane, illegal and unreliable; how does it help keep America safe again?
Charles Krauthammer, The Washington Post, today: "When to Torture":
Torture is an impermissible evil. Except under two circumstances. The first is the ticking time bomb. . . . The second exception to the no-torture rule is the extraction of information from a high-value enemy in possession of high-value information likely to save lives. . . .
Some people, however, believe you never torture. Ever. They are akin to conscientious objectors who will never fight in any war under any circumstances, and for whom we correctly show respect by exempting them from war duty. But we would never make one of them Centcom commander. Private principles are fine, but you don't entrust such a person with the military decisions upon which hinges the safety of the nation. It is similarly imprudent to have a person who would abjure torture in all circumstances making national security decisions upon which depends the protection of 300 million countrymen.
Ronald Reagan, May 20, 1988, transmitting the Convention Against Torture to the Senate for ratification:
The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.
The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called "universal jurisdiction." Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.
Convention Against Torture, signed and championed by Ronald Reagan, Article II/IV:
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law.
I guess that according to Krauthammer, Reagan was unfit to be the POTUS.
good god! how far can we take the "would you abort one baby to cure cancer" debate?
note: we have abortions, and it's doing as much to cure cancer as waterboarding is doing to eliminate terrorism.
:p