Freewanker and the rest of you pro lifers.
Here's a spot for each of you to share your fondest memories from the womb. If life begins there then why don't any of you remember anything from it?
- Could it be because you had no spirit or soul until birth?
- Perhaps all those movements and supposed purposeful gestures really are nothing more than reflexive actions due to nerve ending development
- Or maybe you just are not really alive until the unification of spirit (soul) and physical being takes place?
You say the mass of cells/parasitic growth/fetus is so alive in the womb. Tell us about your experiences in there! We're waiting!
*Recognizing up front that this topic will result in several pornographic responses I placed it here.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 05:44:51 PM
*Recognizing up front that this topic will result in several pornographic responses I placed it here.
:eek: :biggrin:
And before you go off on a wild goose chase, consider that it is a medical fact that the brain and central nervous system must be fully developed before any conception of self, pain, or even being can materialize.
The part of the brain associated with thought, consciousness, emotion etc. is the cerebral cortex which forms the largest part of the developed brain, enveloping the lower structures in two cerebral hemispheres, the first signs of which are visible at 5-6 weeks. The cortex itself starts as a layer of undifferentiated cells (the cortical plate) which grows rapidly in both size and complexity throughout gestation. Eight different cortical layers have developed by 38 weeks, and the characteristic convolutions (these increase the cortex surface area) are displayed towards the last two months . The brain continues to develop at the high rates typical of the fetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed.
After fertilization, the embryo's cells multiply and after about 10 days separate into the ectoderm (precursors of the outer skin, nervous system and other parts) and endoderm (precursor to the digestive system and lungs. no breathing without these babies!), soon separated by the mesoderm (to become muscles, bones, circulatory system etc. - can't live without these either). As growth continues, by 8-9 weeks all the basic tissues and organs of the fetus exist in their initial form. This represents the start of the fetal period which lasts until birth during which time the fetus' length increases tenfold, its weight one thousand fold and its proportions change to those of the full-term baby.
At around 17 days, the ectoderm separates a 'neural plate' which folds to form a hollow tube (the neural tube) within which the spinal cord and brain will start to develop. After the neural tube has closed (failure to close at the head end leads to anencephaly; at the bottom to spina bifida), the various regions of the nervous system start to develop, and the cells inside the tube proliferate to form the raw materials of the nervous system - the neurons. As these grow in number (at the peak of growth, some million neurons are produced every four minutes), they sort themselves into layers each of which then develops further towards its end tissue (e.g. spinal cord, brain regions). By attaching themselves to architectural cells called glial cells, the neurons start migrating to the positions in the developing nervous system which they need to reach in order to function properly.
The primitive structures of the brain (forebrain, midbrain and hindbrain) are recognizable by 4-5 weeks after conception and develop and grow into the many different parts of the brain. The first signs of the brain's basic units (thalamus, cortex, etc.) are recognizable from around 6 weeks, and from then grow in size, develop the internal structure necessary to function, and interconnect throughout gestation; not reaching full development until 12 months or so post-birth. Internal structural development is as important as size - for instance the cortical plate starts off as a single undifferentiated layer, but by 38-40 weeks has 8 differentiated layers.
The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built (e.g. the cerebral cortex has over 40 regions which regulate distinct processes). Development is a continuous process, not one separated by steps or jumps. For instance, the future cerebral hemispheres are just recognizable at 5 weeks, from which point they grow rapidly in size . In parallel with the development in size goes the development of neural connections between the various parts of the brain and the overall structure (e.g. the cerebral cortex develops its characteristic convolutions in the last trimester). When complete, sensory signals (including noxious stimuli) pass from peripheral nerves to the spinal column, through the brain stem and end principally in the thalamus. Further nerve fibres link the thalamus to the cerebral cortex.
The higher functions derive from the forebrain:
The thalamus receives most of the sensory input to the brain, and relays it to the appropriate region of the cortex via its projection fibres.
The hypothalamus looks after important body processes (e.g. water balance).
The cerebral cortex is the outer layer of the brain and comprises 80% of it and is responsible for our consciousness of self, ability to think, plan, perceive, communicate etc.
The limbic system is important to emotion, motivation and learning.
According to Dr Mark Hill, UNSW Embryology:
"Pain is a complex neurological response to a range of stressful or damaging stimuli (see IASP definition). Response to a painful stimulus can be mediated by simple spinal cord reflexes while pain perception requires an intact ascending neurological pain pathway and brain development."
"Pain in the postnatal human and models for pain perception have been developed and requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus."
http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/FetalPain.htm#Intro (http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/FetalPain.htm#Intro)
In addition to this there are current medical studies that document that the chemicals present within the placenta and amniotic fluid possibly act to suppress awareness should it somehow become available within the gestational period. . .
Now, care to share those womb memories anyone? :rolleyes:
I don't remember what happened when I was one year old, either, but it doesn't mean I was not alive! So are you saying if you can't remember the past to recount it, you weren't alive? If so then a great many people have large holes in their times of being alive.
Quote from: mageepet on June 10, 2009, 06:43:15 PM
I don't remember what happened when I was one year old, either, but it doesn't mean I was not alive! So are you saying if you can't remember the past to recount it, you weren't alive? If so then a great many people have large holes in their times of being alive.
Perhaps you missed this part:
The brain continues to develop at the high rates typical of the fetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed. . .
The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built . . .Your question surrounding memory and inability to "recall" may find its root cause in neuron, nerve ending or inter-connection damage induced via ingestion of substances known to degrade them, environmental causes, disease, or physically induced damages. . .
In any case awareness must have taken place prior to any cognizant ability to interpret pain and development of memory, and in order for that to transpire the development of its communication channels must have been completed.
I have definite memory gaps throughout all my life. Does that mean I was not alive at that time, or just that I am getting old. Darnit
Quote from: mcgonser on June 10, 2009, 06:54:14 PM
I have definite memory gaps throughout all my life. Does that mean I was not alive at that time, or just that I am getting old. Darnit
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 06:51:48 PM
. . .
Your question surrounding memory and inability to "recall" may find its root cause in neuron, nerve ending or inter-connection damage induced via ingestion of substances known to degrade them, environmental causes, disease, or physically induced damages. . .
Oh man Pale, please tell me that you have a cure for me. Although sometimes it is convenient to have a bad memory
Quote from: mcgonser on June 10, 2009, 07:00:04 PM
Oh man Pale, please tell me that you have a cure for me. Although sometimes it is convenient to have a bad memory
- Lay off the substances known to degrade brain cells
:spooked:
- Live in a HAZMAT suit and never take it off
:devil29:
- Stay inside all the time too
:spot:
:suck:
[/list]
Studies have shown that the more you exercise your brain the less the impact aging and disease have upon your mental abilities.
Do the math, crosswords, brain-teasers, and other mental exercises that stimulate the nerve endings in your brain, and it decreases the degradation of the receptors and nerve endings exponentially. :smile:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 06:51:48 PM
Perhaps you missed this part: The brain continues to develop at the high rates typical of the fetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed. . .
The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built . . .
Your question surrounding memory and inability to "recall" may find its root cause in neuron, nerve ending or inter-connection damage induced via ingestion of substances known to degrade them, environmental causes, disease, or physically induced damages. . .
In any case awareness must have taken place prior to any cognizant ability to interpret pain and development of memory, and in order for that to transpire the development of its communication channels must have been completed.
Perhaps, I missed nothing. I just found the idea that because you couldn't remember something meant you weren't alive , as ridiculous. Not good logic even for a big horse...
Quote from: mageepet on June 10, 2009, 07:39:14 PM
Perhaps, I missed nothing. I just found the idea that because you couldn't remember something meant you weren't alive , as ridiculous. Not good logic even for a big horse...
Comprehension skills? Got em?
. . .
Your question surrounding memory and inability to "recall" may find its root cause in neuron, nerve ending or inter-connection damage induced via ingestion of substances known to degrade them, environmental causes, disease, or physically induced damages. . .
. . .
Yep, how about you? Or have you forgotten what you said and are therefor no longer alive?
Quote from: mageepet on June 10, 2009, 08:10:38 PM
Yep, how about you? Or have you forgotten what you said and are therefor no longer alive?
Yet another reason to dislike cats. . . :rolleyes:
Is that because cats do not forget and therefore are never dead or because they might sneak up and scratch your horse heinie?
How's about we stop talking about souls and start talking about intelligence as the determination of sentient life, and when a fetus becomes a person? It worked well for Star Trek. As the yardstick, I recommend the Turing test. If we can't tell the fetus from the computer, then the fetus can be judged intelligent, and deserving of full protection under the constitution.
Really, y'all, I know we all adore babies. But we love puppies and kittens, too. There just ain't much going on behind those big blue eyes for the first six months or so. (Much longer in many cases. sigh)
Quote from: mageepet on June 10, 2009, 08:14:21 PM
Is that because cats do not forget and therefore are never dead or because they might sneak up and scratch your horse heinie?
No, rather due to their aloof persona, inability or unwillingness to communicate and interact effectively with their human masters, and uselessness. . .
I have the cure for that ass scratching - de-clawing. Works very well too. . .
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 08:17:26 PM
How's about we stop talking about souls and start talking about intelligence as the determination of sentient life, and when a fetus becomes a person? . . .
Let's see. . . "Womb days". . . humm. . . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 06:40:41 PM
And before you go off on a wild goose chase, consider that it is a medical fact that the brain and central nervous system must be fully developed before any conception of self, pain, or even being can materialize.
The part of the brain associated with thought, consciousness, emotion etc. is the cerebral cortex which forms the largest part of the developed brain, enveloping the lower structures in two cerebral hemispheres, the first signs of which are visible at 5-6 weeks. The cortex itself starts as a layer of undifferentiated cells (the cortical plate) which grows rapidly in both size and complexity throughout gestation. Eight different cortical layers have developed by 38 weeks, and the characteristic convolutions (these increase the cortex surface area) are displayed towards the last two months . The brain continues to develop at the high rates typical of the fetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed.
After fertilization, the embryo's cells multiply and after about 10 days separate into the ectoderm (precursors of the outer skin, nervous system and other parts) and endoderm (precursor to the digestive system and lungs. no breathing without these babies!), soon separated by the mesoderm (to become muscles, bones, circulatory system etc. - can't live without these either). As growth continues, by 8-9 weeks all the basic tissues and organs of the fetus exist in their initial form. This represents the start of the fetal period which lasts until birth during which time the fetus' length increases tenfold, its weight one thousand fold and its proportions change to those of the full-term baby.
At around 17 days, the ectoderm separates a 'neural plate' which folds to form a hollow tube (the neural tube) within which the spinal cord and brain will start to develop. After the neural tube has closed (failure to close at the head end leads to anencephaly; at the bottom to spina bifida), the various regions of the nervous system start to develop, and the cells inside the tube proliferate to form the raw materials of the nervous system - the neurons. As these grow in number (at the peak of growth, some million neurons are produced every four minutes), they sort themselves into layers each of which then develops further towards its end tissue (e.g. spinal cord, brain regions). By attaching themselves to architectural cells called glial cells, the neurons start migrating to the positions in the developing nervous system which they need to reach in order to function properly.
The primitive structures of the brain (forebrain, midbrain and hindbrain) are recognizable by 4-5 weeks after conception and develop and grow into the many different parts of the brain. The first signs of the brain's basic units (thalamus, cortex, etc.) are recognizable from around 6 weeks, and from then grow in size, develop the internal structure necessary to function, and interconnect throughout gestation; not reaching full development until 12 months or so post-birth. Internal structural development is as important as size - for instance the cortical plate starts off as a single undifferentiated layer, but by 38-40 weeks has 8 differentiated layers.
The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built (e.g. the cerebral cortex has over 40 regions which regulate distinct processes). Development is a continuous process, not one separated by steps or jumps. For instance, the future cerebral hemispheres are just recognizable at 5 weeks, from which point they grow rapidly in size . In parallel with the development in size goes the development of neural connections between the various parts of the brain and the overall structure (e.g. the cerebral cortex develops its characteristic convolutions in the last trimester). When complete, sensory signals (including noxious stimuli) pass from peripheral nerves to the spinal column, through the brain stem and end principally in the thalamus. Further nerve fibres link the thalamus to the cerebral cortex.
The higher functions derive from the forebrain:
The thalamus receives most of the sensory input to the brain, and relays it to the appropriate region of the cortex via its projection fibres.
The hypothalamus looks after important body processes (e.g. water balance).
The cerebral cortex is the outer layer of the brain and comprises 80% of it and is responsible for our consciousness of self, ability to think, plan, perceive, communicate etc.
The limbic system is important to emotion, motivation and learning.
According to Dr Mark Hill, UNSW Embryology:
"Pain is a complex neurological response to a range of stressful or damaging stimuli (see IASP definition). Response to a painful stimulus can be mediated by simple spinal cord reflexes while pain perception requires an intact ascending neurological pain pathway and brain development."
"Pain in the postnatal human and models for pain perception have been developed and requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus."
http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/FetalPain.htm#Intro (http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/FetalPain.htm#Intro)
In addition to this there are current medical studies that document that the chemicals present within the placenta and amniotic fluid possibly act to suppress awareness should it somehow become available within the gestational period. . .
Now, care to share those womb memories anyone? :rolleyes:
I don't understand what you have against using the Turing test, PH. Just hook the inputs to the thalamus and trust the projection fibres to reach the cerebral cortex.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:01:36 PM
I don't understand what you have against using the Turing test, PH. Just hook the inputs to the thalamus and trust the projection fibres to reach the cerebral cortex.
Too invasive and an unacceptable risk for secondary staph infection.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:04:38 PM
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Возможно оно потому что я имею такие плохие искусства понимания?
(Perhaps it is because I speak Russian have such poor comprehension skills?)
QuoteFreewanker and the rest of you pro lifers.
Here's a spot for each of you to share your fondest memories from the womb. If life begins there then why don't any of you remember anything from it?
Oh, but I do remember my time in the womb. It was during the 13th week that a premonition came to me, that in my 53rd year I would come upon a pale horse's ass.
Honestly, who remembers much from their first year, second year, third year...
I remember a few details from my fourth year, so that must have been when a spirit dove in during naptime, while I slept soundly with my mouth hanging open.
Quote•Could it be because you had no spirit or soul until birth?
Like I said, apparently I didn't have one of those until my fourth year.
Quote•Perhaps all those movements and supposed purposeful gestures really are nothing more than reflexive actions due to nerve ending development
And perhaps there is no such thing as a soul. Perhaps everything you do is learned.
Quote•Or maybe you just are not really alive until the unification of spirit (soul) and physical being takes place?
LOL. You're such a scientist.
QuoteYou say the mass of cells/parasitic growth/fetus is so alive in the womb. Tell us about your experiences in there! We're waiting!
Fine. How about you tell us all about your first month after you were born, genius?
Quote*Recognizing up front that this topic will result in several pornographic responses I placed it here.
Say what? What does porn have to do with any of this? Forget your meds, or something?
I haven't attempted Russian since my sophomore year in college, when I came down with strep during finals week. I think it was a result of the Cyrillic view that vowels are a bourgeois luxury.
And then there was the classmate who hollered "Zdravitya!" (that's phonetic, sort of. I can't remember the Cyrillic spelling) at me on a dark street when I was befuddled, and scared the living snot out of me.
But I can beat a Turing test.
Quote from: Freethinker on June 10, 2009, 09:22:04 PM
Oh, but I do remember my time in the womb. It was during the 13th week that a premonition came to me, that in my 53rd year I would come upon a pale horse's ass.
Okay. . . I'll play your game. . .
53 years and that's all you can come up with? Pitiful. . .
Honestly, who remembers much from their first year, second year, third year...
I remember a few details from my fourth year, so that must have been when a spirit dove in during naptime, while I slept soundly with my mouth hanging open.
Like I said, apparently I didn't have one of those until my fourth year.
Started early with substance abuse huh?
And perhaps there is no such thing as a soul. Perhaps everything you do is learned.
Had you anything of substance between your ears this might be a path worth traveling, however given your proclivity for juvenile behavioral patterns and responses, I think not.
LOL. You're such a scientist.
I'm sorry. Do you count psychic ability amongst your "gifts"?
Fine. How about you tell us all about your first month after you were born, genius?
You don't know me well enough for that type of informational response. That information is "need to know", and you don't.
Say what? What does porn have to do with any of this? Forget your meds, or something?
Oh. . . Lost the humor gene in that shallow end you were born in huh? How horrible for you. . . Maybe if you go back you can find it! Swim against the current!
Just as I suspected; non-responsive and goes to the insults as a last ditch act of desperation.
Thanks for playing, buh-bye. . . :island: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:25:26 PM
I haven't attempted Russian since my sophomore year in college, when I came down with strep during finals week. I think it was a result of the Cyrillic view that vowels are a bourgeois luxury.
And then there was the classmate who hollered "Zdravitya!" (that's phonetic, sort of. I can't remember the Cyrillic spelling) at me on a dark street when I was befuddled, and scared the living snot out of me.
But I can beat a Turing test.
:biggrin: Hard on the uvula isn't it? :biggrin:
Machines can beat the Turing test too. . . Hey. . . umm. . . you're not a bot or something are you? :razz: :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 09:36:14 PM
... you're not a bot or something are you?
BUSTED!!
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:38:28 PM
BUSTED!!
Cy-borg. . .Gimme dat, gimmie dat; Cy-borg! (The balance of this posting has been censored by the central scrutinizer). . .
*Listen to Frank Zappa's "Joes Garage" recordings if you do not get this posting. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 09:32:20 PM
Just as I suspected; non-responsive and goes to the insults as a last ditch act of desperation.
Thanks for playing, buh-bye. . . :island: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
It's the best I could do, Palehorse, in responding to your own religiosity.
You have no facts. You are no friend to science.
Your analytical skills are non-existent.
Your beliefs about abortions are pure-D old wive's tales.
But you are fun to saddle up and ride.
*digging both heels into your ribs.*
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :finger01:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 09:43:36 PM
*Listen to Frank Zappa's "Joes Garage" recordings if you do not get this posting. . .
I got it.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:50:34 PM
I got it.
Were you giggling like a good little cyborg? :biggrin:
Oh look, he does whinny in English!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 09:51:27 PM
Were you giggling like a good little cyborg?
Ya gonna pay for the Roto-plooker?
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 05:44:51 PM
Freewanker and the rest of you pro lifers.
Here's a spot for each of you to share your fondest memories from the womb. If life begins there then why don't any of you remember anything from it?
I'm pro-choice, not pro-life...and I don't agree with life starts at birth. I also have no memories before I was about 18 months to 2 years old. Does that mean I had no spirit before then?
- Could it be because you had no spirit or soul until birth?
- Perhaps all those movements and supposed purposeful gestures really are nothing more than reflexive actions due to nerve ending development
- Or maybe you just are not really alive until the unification of spirit (soul) and physical being takes place?
You say the mass of cells/parasitic growth/fetus is so alive in the womb. Tell us about your experiences in there! We're waiting!
*Recognizing up front that this topic will result in several pornographic responses I placed it here.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 08:20:31 PM
No, rather due to their aloof persona, inability or unwillingness to communicate and interact effectively with their human masters, and uselessness. . .
So, you're saying they're pretty much like women; huh? :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 07:08:00 PM
Do the math, crosswords, brain-teasers, and other mental exercises that stimulate the nerve endings in your brain, and it decreases the degradation of the receptors and nerve endings exponentially.
Attempting to craft a post provocative enough to get someone to follow you on an obvious thread-jack is another good exercise for mental fitness. Sorry PH (and Pariann.) I took it as a dare.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:59:11 PM
Ya gonna pay for the Roto-plooker?
Finally! Something to make me smile today! :smile:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 11, 2009, 07:29:55 AM
So, you're saying they're pretty much like women; huh? :biggrin:
:smile:
What the heck? I actually posted a reply under that quote I made.....where did it go?
Quote from: pariann on June 11, 2009, 02:12:15 PM
What the heck? I actually posted a reply under that quote I made.....where did it go?
You mean you weren't just chastising me for the threadjack? Damn. I wish I had known. I was all set to morph out of Cy-borg and start riffing as Suzy Creamcheese, if Pale Horse still wanted to play.
LOL...No, I sure wasn't. I actually made the comment: I don't remember anything before I was between 18 and 24 months...so did I not have a spirit in my physical body before then? Was I not actually a person yet?
:rolleyes:
Don't be rolling your eyes at me. When it comes right down to it, it's a legitimate question towards your belief system. You state that the soul/spirit aren't connected until the first breath after birth. You are asking people to tell their memories from the womb, and say that because they don't have any, then your theory in your belief system is correct for you. I am here to tell you that I don't have a memory of my birth, or 5 minutes after it. My first memory could be as early as 18 months, when I was living in Germany, but possibly I was nearly 2 years old when this memory I have took place.
By your belief, since I have no memories of the womb....I didn't exist as a person, with a soul. So since I would wager a guess that MOST people don't have any memories of before they were a year old....is that because our souls just didn't unite with our physical body until then?
Of course it doesn't mean that, but if we can't remember being an infant, how would you really expect us to remember being a fetus?
Quote from: pariann on June 13, 2009, 12:25:47 PM
Don't be rolling your eyes at me. When it comes right down to it, it's a legitimate question towards your belief system. You state that the soul/spirit aren't connected until the first breath after birth. You are asking people to tell their memories from the womb, and say that because they don't have any, then your theory in your belief system is correct for you. I am here to tell you that I don't have a memory of my birth, or 5 minutes after it. My first memory could be as early as 18 months, when I was living in Germany, but possibly I was nearly 2 years old when this memory I have took place.
By your belief, since I have no memories of the womb....I didn't exist as a person, with a soul. So since I would wager a guess that MOST people don't have any memories of before they were a year old....is that because our souls just didn't unite with our physical body until then?
Of course it doesn't mean that, but if we can't remember being an infant, how would you really expect us to remember being a fetus?
:rolleyes:
Quote from: pariann on June 13, 2009, 12:25:47 PM
Don't be rolling your eyes at me. When it comes right down to it, it's a legitimate question towards your belief system. You state that the soul/spirit aren't connected until the first breath after birth. You are asking people to tell their memories from the womb, and say that because they don't have any, then your theory in your belief system is correct for you. I am here to tell you that I don't have a memory of my birth, or 5 minutes after it. My first memory could be as early as 18 months, when I was living in Germany, but possibly I was nearly 2 years old when this memory I have took place.
By your belief, since I have no memories of the womb....I didn't exist as a person, with a soul. So since I would wager a guess that MOST people don't have any memories of before they were a year old....is that because our souls just didn't unite with our physical body until then?
Of course it doesn't mean that, but if we can't remember being an infant, how would you really expect us to remember being a fetus?
You act like the "soul" is something real. Do you believe you have a ghost in you just waiting to get out?
Dan, I do believe that we all have a soul that is God given. Even babies in the womb.That is my opinion.
Quote from: dan foster on June 14, 2009, 05:22:44 PM
You act like the "soul" is something real. Do you believe you have a ghost in you just waiting to get out?
Not only that ... most people have a
skeleton inside them!
doo-doo-dee-doo, doo-doo-dee-doo (That was the Twilight Zone theme, in case ya'll didn't recognize it.)
come to think of it. The bible teaches about the holy ghost or spirit that is inside us.
Quote from: dan foster on June 14, 2009, 05:22:44 PM
You act like the "soul" is something real. Do you believe you have a ghost in you just waiting to get out?
Yes I do. And how much do you want to bet.....Palehorse believes it too.
Doesn't much matter who wins that argument, does it? Since the ghost isn't supposed to get out until you croak, there will be no way to collect on your bet unless two ghosts meet sometime after both of you meet your demise. :wink:
However, if beer exists, and fine female ghosts exist, then I hope there is a ghost inside me waiting to escape. I'm sure he'll indulge in such in the afterlife. :biggrin:
Quote from: Locutus on June 14, 2009, 11:23:38 PM
Doesn't much matter who wins that argument, does it? Since the ghost isn't supposed to get out until you croak, there will be no way to collect on your bet unless two ghosts meet sometime after both of you meet your demise. :wink:
The "bet" is about belief....not fact. :wink:
AND have you ever heard of Astral projection? Hmmm....might be a thought there on collecting on bets before death.
Quote from: pariann on June 15, 2009, 12:16:07 AM
The "bet" is about belief....not fact. :wink:
AND have you ever heard of Astral projection? Hmmm....might be a thought there on collecting on bets before death.
Yeah, I've heard of it. I've also heard of "remote viewing" which I cast in the same category as astral projection.
The problem with we humans is that we seem to have an inherent fear of death. We need to believe that some part of us goes on regardless on any shred of evidence that's the case. So we conjure up heaven (for us), hell (for everyone we despise or who despises us), spirits, astral projection, reincarnation, or whatever we need to make us feel better about the fact that all of us are going to die.
Oh, and as to your belief, you'll still never collect on that bet. :no:
Quote. . .if we can't remember being an infant, how would you really expect us to remember being a fetus?
QuoteThe cerebral cortex is the outer layer of the brain and comprises 80% of it and is responsible for our consciousness of self, ability to think, plan, perceive, communicate etc.. .The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built. . .
I provided the answer to your question, (which supports the opposing position), within a prior post on purpose; to prove that some are so lazy that they won't even read what is posted here and grasp that the opposition has provided them with ammunition.
Some of you oppose simply out of dislike and an intention to instigate discourse.
Enough said. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2009, 08:05:53 AM
I provided the answer to your question...
Palehorse, it's early here, and I haven't had enough coffee, so please tell me which question you provided the answer to.
1. Have you heard of astral projection?
2. Doesn't matter who winds the argument, doe it?
3. Do you believe you have a ghost inside you?
It's not yet 7:30 here. I don't do paranormal investigation before 8:00. It's in my contract with the PPDC.
Quote from: Locutus on June 15, 2009, 12:26:22 AM
Oh, and as to your belief, you'll still never collect on that bet. :no:
I'm not quite understanding how you know I would never collect on a particular bet. If I tell you: I bet John Doe will tell you that he believes the sun rises every morning, and then John Doe says he believes the sun rises every morning. I just won a bet. Now....if there is a wager made and you don't pay up, then it's not that I can't collect on it, it's that you won't pay.
All I said is how much do you wanna bet, Palehorse believes that we have a ghost waiting to get out as well. If he said yes, I also believe that, then I was correct, right? I did not say that any of us had hard evidence that the 'soul' as a spirit/ghost exists. I don't recall Dan taking up the bet, and making a wager, so there is actually no bet to collect on. Just a comment that I think someone else in particular may believe something that I also believe.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 15, 2009, 08:27:16 AM
Palehorse, it's early here, and I haven't had enough coffee, so please tell me which question you provided the answer to.
1. Have you heard of astral projection?
2. Doesn't matter who winds the argument, doe it?
3. Do you believe you have a ghost inside you?
It's not yet 7:30 here. I don't do paranormal investigation before 8:00. It's in my contract with the PPDC.
1. Yep. And I sometimes enjoy it! :fortune:
2. Right. (if "winds" = wins and "doe" = does) :wink: :biggrin:
3. Does it really matter what I believe? Probably not. Yes, I believe we have an eternal soul/spirit. As a matter of fact so do most religions. (Most, not all). It is what a lot of the fighting is supposed to be over twixt good and evil isn't it? The "possession" or "ownership" of our eternal soul/spirit. . .
Quote from: pariann on June 15, 2009, 09:27:59 AM
All I said is how much do you wanna bet, Palehorse believes that we have a ghost waiting to get out as well. If he said yes, I also believe that, then I was correct, right? I did not say that any of us had hard evidence that the 'soul' as a spirit/ghost exists. I don't recall Dan taking up the bet, and making a wager, so there is actually no bet to collect on. Just a comment that I think someone else in particular may believe something that I also believe.
I've outlined my perspectives on ghosts / spirits in the past. . .
I know most of what you believe PH. :wink: Didn't mean to make you the target of discussion. But how come Dan poked at me and not you? Has he not been reading your thoughts and belief on when the 'soul' enters the body?
Quote from: pariann on June 15, 2009, 10:07:40 AM
I know most of what you believe PH. :wink: Didn't mean to make you the target of discussion. But how come Dan poked at me and not you? Has he not been reading your thoughts and belief on when the 'soul' enters the body?
I dunno, but I am over it.
Unlike others I do not care if anyone else believe's as I do. . . and when the opposition will not even read through your responses and information, or give it any consideration, what is the point but discourse?
Quote from: Palehorse on June 15, 2009, 09:49:14 AM
2. Right. (if "winds" = wins and "doe" = does) :wink: :biggrin:
I told you, dammit, that was B.C. (Before Coffee)
And that was the ONLY reason I chose not to correct your post.
In case you didn't know, in many places I am the spelling and grammar nazi. Worse than Exterminator. I've just been a little off my game lately.
Quote from: pariann on June 15, 2009, 07:38:00 PM
And that was the ONLY reason I chose not to correct your post.
You are a true lady, pariann. You understand that no one should be held responsible for anything that happens pre-caffeine.
I never get real bent out of shape about spelling and grammar errors on a board like this. Nobody here is getting paid. However, I am one of those wicked witches who will post a badly spelled and punctuated resume on the bulletin board.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)
How could someone be known by God in the womb if God had not given that person a soul and mind and spirit which makes that person a human being?
With the idea in mind that the Bible is the foundation of belief, then an unborn child does indeed, have a soul.
_____________
According to pre-Islamic folklore, the well of souls was a place where the voices of the dead could be heard along with the sounds of the Rivers of Paradise, as, according to the folklore, the cave is located on top of the Abyss of Chaos; the cave is now known to have no exit apart from those leading to the surface of the Sakhrah, and the sounds have been argued to be a resonance effect similar to hearing the sea from seashells. The well of souls is sometimes conflated with the guf, a location in Jewish mythology, where the souls of the not-yet-born are stored, though the guf is usually considered to be a more heavenly location than an earth-bound one.
And if you believe in Jewish mythology, then the soul is given at birth.
:2cents:
Quote from: Elaine on June 15, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)
How could someone be known by God in the womb if God had not given that person a soul and mind and spirit which makes that person a human being?
With the idea in mind that the Bible is the foundation of belief, then an unborn child does indeed, have a soul.
_____________
According to pre-Islamic folklore, the well of souls was a place where the voices of the dead could be heard along with the sounds of the Rivers of Paradise, as, according to the folklore, the cave is located on top of the Abyss of Chaos; the cave is now known to have no exit apart from those leading to the surface of the Sakhrah, and the sounds have been argued to be a resonance effect similar to hearing the sea from seashells. The well of souls is sometimes conflated with the guf, a location in Jewish mythology, where the souls of the not-yet-born are stored, though the guf is usually considered to be a more heavenly location than an earth-bound one.
And if you believe in Jewish mythology, then the soul is given at birth.
:2cents:
Probably has a lot to do with the fact that the bible is bunk; made up stuff by weak minded humans.
Quote from: Elaine on June 15, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
_____________
According to pre-Islamic folklore, the well of souls was a place where the voices of the dead could be heard along with the sounds of the Rivers of Paradise, as, according to the folklore, the cave is located on top of the Abyss of Chaos; the cave is now known to have no exit apart from those leading to the surface of the Sakhrah, and the sounds have been argued to be a resonance effect similar to hearing the sea from seashells. The well of souls is sometimes conflated with the guf, a location in Jewish mythology, where the souls of the not-yet-born are stored, though the guf is usually considered to be a more heavenly location than an earth-bound one.
And if you believe in Jewish mythology, then the soul is given at birth.
:2cents:
Since this thread sprang from the Tiller thread, the question is further begged regarding why the anti-abortionists are so fuggin' worried about aborted fetuses. If they indeed have a soul, and god tends to that soul without having it be faced with the trials and tribulations of this life, then why not let god tend to gods business and stop using your religion as a justification to stick your nose into the business of others? Nobody has answered that simple question in a reasonable manner since the first time I asked it.
Or the bible is Gods word for us. You just don't have the faith to believe so you trash it all. I just wonder does it make you feel smarter? or what? I find it interesting that the unbelievers are actually more vocal and hateful about religion. Why the attitude of not letting people believe what they want or not. It is no skin off you nose and really should not make a difference. Go on your way, but let others go their own way to. For your info a small percent of people could afford slaves and only a part of them were christians. There you go again, painting every christian with the same brush. I would think you could grow up and get over this fixation.
Quote from: mcgonser on June 15, 2009, 11:31:35 PM
Or the bible is Gods word for us. You just don't have the faith to believe so you trash it all.
The bible is a collection of stories written by people who largely believed the earth was flat. Why would anyone with a modicum of intelligence abdicate their intellect to blind faith? It's almost as ridiculous me painting a square on a piece of paper and telling you that if you have blind faith, you'll believe that it's a circle. :rolleyes:
Quote from: mcgonser on June 15, 2009, 11:31:35 PM
I just wonder does it make you feel smarter? or what?
Actually, it not only makes him feel smarter, it makes him smarter. The evidence is replete in this and other venues that nonbelievers know far more about Christianity and it's origins and history, than those who routinely profess it in these on line discussion forums.
Quote from: mcgonser on June 15, 2009, 11:31:35 PM
I find it interesting that the unbelievers are actually more vocal and hateful about religion. Why the attitude of not letting people believe what they want or not. It is no skin off you nose and really should not make a difference. Go on your way, but let others go their own way to.
Despite what you may choose to believe, it is skin off our nose. Religion has been and remains a huge setback to our collective advancement as a species. It forces people in large measure to turn off their brains. Furthermore, from the Crusades, to slavery, to the Spanish Inquisition, to the Holocaust, religion has been there every bloody step of the way. The absolute crap that modern Christians believe is no different than those that believed that a sky goddess swallowed the sun every day at sunset. What humanity needs is more anti-preachers, anti-Christs, anti-Mohammeds, and anti-faith based initiatives. We actually don't need anything "faith-based" at all. We'd all be FAR better off without that crap.
Quote from: mcgonser on June 15, 2009, 11:31:35 PM
For your info a small percent of people could afford slaves and only a part of them were christians. There you go again, painting every christian with the same brush. I would think you could grow up and get over this fixation.
Source for this?
Quote from: LOsborne on June 15, 2009, 06:42:04 PM
I told you, dammit, that was B.C. (Before Coffee)
:biggrin:
Quote from: pariann on June 15, 2009, 09:27:59 AM
All I said is how much do you wanna bet....
Pariann, always bet a car. Most of the time you won't be able to collect, but think of how much fun you will have if you
do!
Quote from: Locutus on June 15, 2009, 11:58:36 PM
Why would anyone with a modicum of intelligence abdicate their intellect to blind faith?
I'm guessing this is a rhetorical question?
QuoteSource for this?
Her ass?
Quote from: Exterminator on June 16, 2009, 09:03:01 AM
. . .Her ass?
:biggrin:
That one made me spit my drink!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 16, 2009, 09:10:02 AM
:biggrin:
That one made me spit my drink!
Yep. Crap. Now I have to reprint a whole hour's worth of textbook editing. Sprayed my drink all over it.
Some warning next time, Ex., please. :wink:
Quote from: mcgonser on June 15, 2009, 11:31:35 PM
Or the bible is Gods word for us. You just don't have the faith to believe so you trash it all. I just wonder does it make you feel smarter? or what? I find it interesting that the unbelievers are actually more vocal and hateful about religion. Why the attitude of not letting people believe what they want or not. It is no skin off you nose and really should not make a difference. Go on your way, but let others go their own way to. For your info a small percent of people could afford slaves and only a part of them were christians. There you go again, painting every christian with the same brush. I would think you could grow up and get over this fixation.
Well, first; no one is keeping you from "believing what you want or not". You have an opinion and express it on this board. I have the right to do the same.
Second, the bible was used to support slavery as an institution. You can't get away from that. Even jesus seemed to condone slavery, so whether the slave owners were christian, or not, has nothing to do with it and the fact that whether there were only a few or a multitude of slave owners has nothing to do with the argument, as well.
So, why don't you grow a little, yourself, and try reading something besides the bible for your historical and ethical facts and background?
Quote from: Locutus on June 15, 2009, 11:20:19 PM
Since this thread sprang from the Tiller thread, the question is further begged regarding why the anti-abortionists are so fuggin' worried about aborted fetuses. If they indeed have a soul, and god tends to that soul without having it be faced with the trials and tribulations of this life, then why not let god tend to gods business and stop using your religion as a justification to stick your nose into the business of others? Nobody has answered that simple question in a reasonable manner since the first time I asked it.
There isnt an answer to that statement that would satisfy you. I think the soul matures as the person lives and learns.
To women who do not have the emotional or financial resources to raise a child, abortion is a convenient option. To women who have either one or both resources, abortion is a choice that distasteful women draw upon as a form of birth control, or life organization.
When you add the morality issues to the mix, you will have people who stick their nose in it, using words like murder, and childrens rights, and God, and morality. I believe that sometimes people believe themselves to be doing good, to be guarding social values, and such, and as a result they stick their noses in very firmly in other peoples lives.
Personally, for me, abortion would be an awful choice, but I respect the right of all women to make their own choice.
Quote from: Elaine on June 15, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)
How could someone be known by God in the womb if God had not given that person a soul and mind and spirit which makes that person a human being?
With the idea in mind that the Bible is the foundation of belief, then an unborn child does indeed, have a soul.
_____________
According to pre-Islamic folklore, the well of souls was a place where the voices of the dead could be heard along with the sounds of the Rivers of Paradise, as, according to the folklore, the cave is located on top of the Abyss of Chaos; the cave is now known to have no exit apart from those leading to the surface of the Sakhrah, and the sounds have been argued to be a resonance effect similar to hearing the sea from seashells. The well of souls is sometimes conflated with the guf, a location in Jewish mythology, where the souls of the not-yet-born are stored, though the guf is usually considered to be a more heavenly location than an earth-bound one.
And if you believe in Jewish mythology, then the soul is given at birth.
:2cents:
The ToolSince the beginning of time religion has struggled for control of the people with those who would lead them; from the healers of prehistoric times to tribal leaders, kings, queens, and presidents, the leaders of every religion have wrestled with them for control. During the times before the emergence of Christ and Christianity, the oracles and fortune tellers / astronomers would utilize naturally occurring and predictable astronomical events as signs to the leaders that something they personally wanted done needed to happen. This same methodology was utilized as a means with which to turn the kings and queens of the world into mere puppets of those with the "secret knowledge" they disguised as the ability to hold counsel with the creator. And they took advantage of it to amass personal wealth and power as a means to increase their station in life.
However, it didn't take too long before some of the leadership back then began to figure things out for themselves, by holding counsel with those who possessed new ideas and theories and educating themselves surrounding these things. The old tricks were not what they used to be and these individuals began to lose their grip on the reins of power; and a new way needed to be identified as a means to save themselves.
Along came Jesus Christ and this new idea of Christianity. Now just suppose for a moment, (and I hope you can free up your mind/thought process for long enough to give this some thought) Jesus was nothing more than a man. A man divinely inspired by the creator even works for me. His thoughts and actions, his words, were so revolutionary for the times in which he lived, (Remember, humanity burned "witches" many centuries later and this was after "civilization" had supposedly took hold of the worlds populations), that he was perceived as a threat, an aberration even, by the people of his time. (Some of them anyway. Remember, he did end up on the cross and died at the hands of the "justice" of the times). Yet, amongst the population he struck a chord with many. Some were inspired to follow him, and humanity being humanity, and writers being writers and taking literary license as they usually do, began writing down some of his actions and recording them in the methods of the times.
No doubt some believed so strongly in the things that this man was doing, that they felt compelled to try to bring the point across within the words they placed to "paper", much like the great novelists of the American Wild West days, exaggerating some points to retain the attention of their readers, and hopefully drive home their intended message; that Jesus was onto something here and his teachings were worth passing onto the generations to come.
Eventually the powers that were in control deemed this man enough of a threat to trump up some charges against him that would enable them to sentence him to his death, and so it was that it came to pass. Only problem was that by the time they had got around to executing him he had developed quite the following, and to make matters worse those within his inner circle had written letters outlining some of his deeds, and lot of his messages. They found themselves unable to quell the movement, much less control those with the information. (Certainly no one back then could even fathom that later generations would take their tales so literally, certainly to the extreme that some do today. And they certainly never could have imagined that science would one day have the ability to identify remains 2,000 years old and even millions of years old.)
As the years passed on the humanity within them came to the forefront, as those within the movement jousted for control of it; greed. That hunger for wealth and power rose to the top and with it began the scheming against each other. Of course after some time those with allegiances to the leaders of the people had infiltrated the movement and someone decided that all this documentation had to be assembled in one place, in order for everyone to better understand the message this man had for humanity.
Thus came about the effort to assemble the books of the "bible" through the editing of the writings of humanity from the times. What a power play this would have been for them. Determine what goes in, what stays out, and make the messages so subjective as to be able to make them say whatever you wish, thus control the people, the power, the wealth for themselves. The "gospels" are only "gospels" because they were deemed as such by the very individuals who edited and assembled them way back in the day. Do I believe there is some truth / value to be had within them, sure I do. But I do not agree with the subjective interpretations and incomplete record that this whole process of editing has left them to be. It gives me reason to doubt, to question, and that is enough.
From my days spent in a Christian University, it is clear that the bible was assembled from a collection of "letters" written by followers of the Christian faith. Parables, they were written by human beings, assembled by other human beings much later on, and magically these same human beings doing the assembly felt they had the authority to exclude anything they felt wasn't in keeping with their personal ideas of what the Christian faith is supposed to mean.
Each of these "letters were written by key figures within the circle of trust that was maintained by Jesus; including a key woman that history has shown was unfairly ostracized within later society and made out to be a whore. The reason for this is clearly obvious if one reads her letters, for they document a relationship with this man Jesus, painting a portrait of him that opposed the path the religion needed to take in order to render to those who assembled these works the personal wealth and power they desired. Moreover, even portions of those letters authored by those included within the completed text contained large portions of such information, and if they were included it would undermine the whole purpose behind this activity! So in their infinite "wisdom" these men that lived centuries after these authors had died, took it upon themselves to edit out everything that went against what they personally felt was the path this religion and its followers were to follow.
What provided them this right to undertake such a ludicrous action? How could they know or understand the true meaning and intention of the writers so many years later, much less know something more than they did surrounding the subject of said writings? They took it upon themselves to decide for humanity the path of the religion moving forward, because the true purpose of this whole activity was to create the new tool required to seize back the control lost when the leadership of the time became enlightened.
The book was assembled to purposely be vague and subjective in interpretation, to allow those who obtain positions of power within the church to wield power over the flock, to bend them to their will, and to allow them to accumulate personal wealth and power over the masses. As it has been utilized throughout history and continues to be. So certainly when empirical evidence is discovered there will be no limit to what can and will be done to obscure it; for it threatens their livelihood!
Throughout the subsequent centuries the leadership of Christianity has waffled upon interpretation of passages, providing explanations that best served their purpose at each time the questions arose; in each instance taking the stance that they are only passing along that which God has provided only to them, by speaking only to them. Placing themselves above all others amongst them and in the position to control and decide what is right and what is wrong. After all, does not the book clearly document the divine power provided to a man by God, and since it is God he can provide this same power to those chosen by him for eternity!
It is no wonder then that all these centuries later humankind struggles to understand why it is so contradictory, and just how it is that a man can sit down and write a set of letters on the very same subject matter, but have the continuity broken up by the fact that others much later adjudicate certain portions of that writing as incorrect. How can a man be divinely inspired one moment but not so in the next? Human greed is the answer. To exclude "letters" that document the fact that this same man married, that he had children, and when he was crucified his body was secreted away by those who loved him most, to be later laid to rest within a family tomb, only serve to further cast doubt upon the whole business.
Is it any more of a wonder that centuries after the completion of this book, when physical evidence providing empirical proof that a key foundational element of this book is wrong, is categorically denied and dismissed after a decade of it being hidden away from the world?
I know you put a tremendous amount of thought into your response, and I respect you for your insights.
But, I believe that the Bible is a tool, that used as a guide in our daily life, will make us better people, and it is a fascinating book full of stories of war, and greed, and hunger for power, and victories. From the Beatitudes to the Ten Commandments, it is a book that gives all who read it, and some who hear about it and never read it a sense of propriety, an idea of mans inhumanity, and the gifts of forgiveness.
What organized religion has done to that, however, is a whole new question in my mind. I do believe that there is Heaven, and there is Hell. I do believe that Jesus Christ came to this earth, that he lived and died as described, and that his appearance fulfilled a prophecy.
Now I am not a scholar, nor have I been to even one theology class, nor do I know verse by verse, so I cant argue with another person about what I believe, but I know that I know.
The Bible is made up of sixty-six books, written by as many as 40 people over the course of approximately 1,600 years. Both its writing and assemblage took place under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
It is God's written word and message to the people that He created....., and according to scripture itself, it is ... God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness....
God breathed may remain a mystery to us on HOW, exactly God 'communicated'...to His selected writers...but is accepted by those who have chosen to follow Him...as part of the required faith, that HAS to be acknowledged based upon it's countless endeavors throughout the whole Bible. The compilation of letters, prophecies and historical facts, from the Old Testament, have all been been supported by findings such as Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Talmud and the Targums....there are thousands of manuscripts which support the New Testament, in Greek and Latin...by authors such as Aristotle, Plato and Caesar (to name a few)...... there are many references throughout the Bible that mentions Kings and nations, empires and cities, that have been proven accurate...even the timeline and dates are accurate.....there are descriptions of rivers and mountains and buildings that meet the test......the eyewitness accounts by the apostles all were written at different times, with different views, but they STILL have the same message.
It is also my very own opinion, to anyone who can accept that there IS a creator, who created the universe....why is it so hard to think, that He could also create a Bible, by utilizing men, like us, to use words and descriptions, that we would understand to not only tell us His ultimate message to us really is, but to create the desire of FAITH, that would make men to want to chose to accept Him as a God, who Loves us, and has a BIGGER plan, for our eternal life? Palehorse, you always express yourself, very well on here, and with much compassion in your beliefs. Logic is very important to anybody's conclusion on issues such as this....but I believe the whole truth that the Bible claims IS based upon logic....and it becomes more and more logical, the more you can accept a certain amount of faith....and I know that is where it loses many people....
I'm rambling and need to get back to business....more thoughts to come...later.
You should preface your post with, "I believe," rather than state it as fact.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 17, 2009, 11:26:54 AM
. . .why is it so hard to think, that He could also create a Bible, by utilizing men, like us, to use words and descriptions, that we would understand to not only tell us His ultimate message to us really is, but to create the desire of FAITH, that would make men to want to chose to accept Him as a God, who Loves us, and has a BIGGER plan, for our eternal life? Palehorse, you always express yourself, very well on here, and with much compassion in your beliefs. Logic is very important to anybody's conclusion on issues such as this....but I believe the whole truth that the Bible claims IS based upon logic....and it becomes more and more logical, the more you can accept a certain amount of faith....and I know that is where it loses many people....
I'm rambling and need to get back to business....more thoughts to come...later.
And why is it so hard to believe that humankind would manipulate the words in order to utilize them as a means to build personal wealth and power, and guide the people toward the will of the few, or the one?
Remember, back during the days when the "Bible" was being written, folks believed the world to be flat, that within the wooded areas there be dragons, and great sea creatures ruled the waters. . . And later, witches were to be burned and the heathens made to confess. . .
Financial disaster is imploding personal wealth, but how many of these churches do you see being repossessed? That ain't divine intervention but rather the fleecing of the flock. And they are using "The Tool" to do it!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 17, 2009, 01:08:32 PM
And why is it so hard to believe that humankind would manipulate the words in order to utilize them as a means to build personal wealth and power, and guide the people toward the will of the few, or the one?
Remember, back during the days when the "Bible" was being written, folks believed the world to be flat, that within the wooded areas there be dragons, and great sea creatures ruled the waters. . . And later, witches were to be burned and the heathens made to confess. . .
Financial disaster is imploding personal wealth, but how many of these churches do you see being repossessed? That ain't divine intervention but rather the fleecing of the flock. And they are using "The Tool" to do it!
I agree, that the Church, the Bible, God, and Religion has all been used to gain personal wealth and power.....that is the nature of man, the root to ALL evil.....
I simply do not believe that MAN was smart enough to design a book as powerful as the Bible, with continuty that it has, from book to book, without a divine intervention.
I have no problem believing that humankind has capitalized off of it's existence...there is no doubt about that.
That does not mean, that it was not devinely written, and it is in the exact context that God wanted it to be.
The book is full of stories of greed...it warns in great detail to watch out for this.
It also tells us the world is NOT flat.
It has been the all time best seller, year in and year out since it's beginning of mass publication.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 17, 2009, 11:33:55 AM
You should preface your post with, "I believe," rather than state it as fact.
who are you referring too?...
Quote from: Exterminator on June 17, 2009, 01:39:25 PM
You.
Help me out, and show me where I stated that anything was fact?.....I did state that portions WAS of my opinion......? :confused:
If I came across as stating anything as FACT....it was NOT intended to be that way.....I just jumped in and began to through down my thougths.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 17, 2009, 01:34:42 PM
. . .
I simply do not believe that MAN was smart enough to design a book as powerful as the Bible, with continuty that it has, from book to book, without a divine intervention.
. . .
Dianetics ~ L Ron Hubbard = Church of Scientology
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 17, 2009, 01:45:53 PM
Help me out, and show me where I stated that anything was fact?.....I did state that portions WAS of my opinion......? :confused:
If I came across as stating anything as FACT....it was NOT intended to be that way.....I just jumped in and began to through down my thougths.
Please show where in the statement, "Both its writing and assemblage took place under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit," there is any hint that this is an opinion.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 17, 2009, 01:47:53 PM
Dianetics ~ L Ron Hubbard = Church of Scientology
excuse me but that is not even CLOSE to be compared to the Bible....that guy does not even have a fraction of believers as does that derived from the Holy Bible...that man, even admitted to be a factious writer.
sorry, but not even close.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 17, 2009, 01:52:37 PM
Please show where in the statement, "Both its writing and assemblage took place under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit," there is any hint that this is an opinion.
Sorry for YOUR confusion.....It was simply a reply BACK to palehorse, based upon his opinion....thanks for pointing it out, but it WAS/IS just an opinon of mine...that is all.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 17, 2009, 02:04:14 PM
excuse me but that is not even CLOSE to be compared to the Bible....that guy does not even have a fraction of believers as does that derived from the Holy Bible...that man, even admitted to be a factious writer.
sorry, but not even close.
Then again, only a fraction of the time has passed in comparison too. Fact is the COS is growing and is the only "new" religion to be formally created during the twentieth century.
That of course is discounting the Church of the Chickenhawk. . . :razz: :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 17, 2009, 02:11:43 PM
Then again, only a fraction of the time has passed in comparison too. Fact is the COS is growing and is the only "new" religion to be formally created during the twentieth century.
That of course is discounting the Church of the Chickenhawk. . . :razz: :biggrin:
The CoCH is JUST beginning it's infancy...(It is proper to use CH for Chicken Hawk, better than the first and the last letters...)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 17, 2009, 02:48:10 PM
The CoCH is JUST beginning it's infancy...(It is proper to use CH for Chicken Hawk, better than the first and the last letters...)
Oh how absolute power corrupts! :spooked: :razz: :biggrin:
Absolutely :wink:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 17, 2009, 01:34:42 PM
I simply do not believe that MAN was smart enough to design a book as powerful as the Bible, with continuty that it has, from book to book, without a divine intervention.
I've read the Bible. I've also read the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. And the Illiad and Odyssey. (in translation, I confess.) The Bible is not the runaway winner either in style or content. The fact that it is familiar to you does not automatically make it the most inspiring collection of short stories ever written.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 17, 2009, 07:46:14 PM
I've read the Bible. I've also read the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. And the Illiad and Odyssey. (in translation, I confess.) The Bible is not the runaway winner either in style or content. The fact that it is familiar to you does not automatically make it the most inspiring collection of short stories ever written.
I believe hank would be right, if it weren't for the fact that everything about the deity in the bible is laced with the frailties of humans; jealousy, vanity, dishonesty, and the hideous rape and murder of children. Is that the divinely inspired continuity that hank refers to?
Quote from: LOsborne on June 17, 2009, 07:46:14 PM
I've read the Bible. I've also read the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. And the Illiad and Odyssey. (in translation, I confess.) The Bible is not the runaway winner either in style or content. The fact that it is familiar to you does not automatically make it the most inspiring collection of short stories ever written.
what makes you think that I never read any of those that you mentioned?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 18, 2009, 10:13:38 AM
what makes you think that I never read any of those that you mentioned?
LMAO! Like you ever read a book. :razz:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 18, 2009, 10:19:07 AM
LMAO! Like you ever read a book. :razz:
but the pictures in the Illiad and Odyssey are RAD!
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 18, 2009, 10:13:38 AM
what makes you think that I never read any of those that you mentioned?
Because you didn't mention them when you were assigning the editorship to Divine Intervention. Otherwise, you would surely have mentioned them, because frankly Henry, the editing job of the Bible sucks.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 18, 2009, 07:26:05 PM
. . ., the editing job of the Bible sucks.
And not very well either! :icon_twisted:
despite your OPINION of it the Bible is the world's best-selling book of ALL timm....and it is even the world's most shoplifted book....
There is something to that Book... :yes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 19, 2009, 08:07:09 AM
and it is even the world's most shoplifted book....
And you are bragging about that? What kind of person would steal a Bible? Why would they have to? All they have to do is ask Gideon for one.
National Enquirer and Star Magazine sell quite well too. Does that make them factual?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 19, 2009, 08:07:09 AM
despite your OPINION of it the Bible is the world's best-selling book of ALL timm....and it is even the world's most shoplifted book....
There is something to that Book... :yes:
Nothing in the book your imagination can't put there. BTW: if you want to live in "one nation under god", move to Iran.
Quote from: dan foster on June 19, 2009, 08:44:01 AM
Nothing in the book your imagination can't put there. BTW: if you want to live in "one nation under god", move to Iran.
Man. . . I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy! :spooked:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 19, 2009, 08:07:09 AM
. . .
There is something to that Book... :yes:
Yeah. Centuries of condemnation, threats of eternally burning in Red Daddy's BBQ, and preconditioning of the sheeple. . . :wink: :devil29: :devil29: :devil29:
I bet we taste like chicken! :devil1:
:kickcan:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 19, 2009, 08:47:20 AM
Man. . . I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy! :spooked:
The American Imams were trying for a while. Not even the religion-facilitated act of 9/11 was able to rattle the resolve of the fundies. But, perhaps a good view of the Iranian "one nation under god" will deter the sheep from pushing that on (the) US.