Womb Days

[Elaine]

Since this thread sprang from the Tiller thread, the question is further begged regarding why the anti-abortionists are so fuggin' worried about aborted fetuses.  If they indeed have a soul, and god tends to that soul without having it be faced with the trials and tribulations of this life, then why not let god tend to gods business and stop using your religion as a justification to stick your nose into the business of others?   Nobody has answered that simple question in a reasonable manner since the first time I asked it.

There isnt an answer to that statement that would satisfy you.  I think the soul matures as the person lives and learns.
To women who do not have the emotional or financial resources to raise a child, abortion is a convenient option.  To women who have either one or both resources, abortion is a choice that distasteful women draw upon as a form of birth control, or life organization. 
When you add the morality issues to the mix, you will have people who stick their nose in it, using words like murder, and childrens rights, and God, and morality.  I believe that sometimes people believe themselves to be doing good, to be guarding social values, and such, and as a result they stick their noses in very firmly in other peoples lives. 
Personally, for me, abortion would be an awful choice, but I respect the right of all women to make their own choice. 

[Palehorse]

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

How could someone be known by God in the womb if God had not given that person a soul and mind and spirit which makes that person a human being?


With the idea in mind that the Bible is the foundation of belief, then an unborn child does indeed, have a soul.
_____________
According to pre-Islamic folklore, the well of souls was a place where the voices of the dead could be heard along with the sounds of the Rivers of Paradise, as, according to the folklore, the cave is located on top of the Abyss of Chaos; the cave is now known to have no exit apart from those leading to the surface of the Sakhrah, and the sounds have been argued to be a resonance effect similar to hearing the sea from seashells. The well of souls is sometimes conflated with the guf, a location in Jewish mythology, where the souls of the not-yet-born are stored, though the guf is usually considered to be a more heavenly location than an earth-bound one.

And if you believe in Jewish mythology, then the soul is given at birth.

The Tool

Since the beginning of time religion has struggled for control of the people with those who would lead them; from the healers of prehistoric times to tribal leaders, kings, queens, and presidents, the leaders of every religion have wrestled with them for control. During the times before the emergence of Christ and Christianity, the oracles and fortune tellers / astronomers would utilize naturally occurring and predictable astronomical events as signs to the leaders that something they personally wanted done needed to happen. This same methodology was utilized as a means with which to turn the kings and queens of the world into mere puppets of those with the "secret knowledge" they disguised as the ability to hold counsel with the creator. And they took advantage of it to amass personal wealth and power as a means to increase their station in life.

However, it didn't take too long before some of the leadership back then began to figure things out for themselves, by holding counsel with those who possessed new ideas and theories and educating themselves surrounding these things. The old tricks were not what they used to be and these individuals began to lose their grip on the reins of power; and a new way needed to be identified as a means to save themselves.

Along came Jesus Christ and this new idea of Christianity. Now just suppose for a moment, (and I hope you can free up your mind/thought process for long enough to give this some thought) Jesus was nothing more than a man. A man divinely inspired by the creator even works for me. His thoughts and actions, his words, were so revolutionary for the times in which he lived, (Remember, humanity burned "witches" many centuries later and this was after "civilization" had supposedly took hold of the worlds populations), that he was perceived as a threat, an aberration even, by the people of his time. (Some of them anyway. Remember, he did end up on the cross and died at the hands of the "justice" of the times). Yet, amongst the population he struck a chord with many. Some were inspired to follow him, and humanity being humanity, and writers being writers and taking literary license as they usually do, began writing down some of his actions and recording them in the methods of the times.

No doubt some believed so strongly in the things that this man was doing, that they felt compelled to try to bring the point across within the words they placed to "paper", much like the great novelists of the American Wild West days, exaggerating some points to retain the attention of their readers, and hopefully drive home their intended message; that Jesus was onto something here and his teachings were worth passing onto the generations to come. 

Eventually the powers that were in control deemed this man enough of a threat to trump up some charges against him that would enable them to sentence him to his death, and so it was that it came to pass. Only problem was that by the time they had got around to executing him he had developed quite the following, and to make matters worse those within his inner circle had written letters outlining some of his deeds, and lot of his messages. They found themselves unable to quell the movement, much less control those with the information. (Certainly no one back then could even fathom that later generations would take their tales so literally, certainly to the extreme that some do today. And they certainly never could have imagined that science would one day have the ability to identify remains 2,000 years old and even millions of years old.)

As the years passed on the humanity within them came to the forefront, as those within the movement jousted for control of it; greed. That hunger for wealth and power rose to the top and with it began the scheming against each other. Of course after some time those with allegiances to the leaders of the people had infiltrated the movement and someone decided that all this documentation had to be assembled in one place, in order for everyone to better understand the message this man had for humanity.

Thus came about the effort to assemble the books of the "bible" through the editing of the writings of humanity from the times. What a power play this would have been for them. Determine what goes in, what stays out, and make the messages so subjective as to be able to make them say whatever you wish, thus control the people, the power, the wealth for themselves. The "gospels" are only "gospels" because they were deemed as such by the very individuals who edited and assembled them way back in the day. Do I believe there is some truth / value to be had within them, sure I do. But I do not agree with the subjective interpretations and incomplete record that this whole process of editing has left them to be. It gives me reason to doubt, to question, and that is enough.

From my days spent in a Christian University, it is clear that the bible was assembled from a collection of "letters" written by followers of the Christian faith. Parables, they were written by human beings, assembled by other human beings much later on, and magically these same human beings doing the assembly felt they had the authority to exclude anything they felt wasn't in keeping with their personal ideas of what the Christian faith is supposed to mean.

Each of these "letters were written by key figures within the circle of trust that was maintained by Jesus; including a key woman that history has shown was unfairly ostracized within later society and made out to be a whore. The reason for this is clearly obvious if one reads her letters, for they document a relationship with this man Jesus, painting a portrait of him that opposed the path the religion needed to take in order to render to those who assembled these works the personal wealth and power they desired. Moreover, even portions of those letters authored by those included within the completed text contained large portions of such information, and if they were included it would undermine the whole purpose behind this activity! So in their infinite "wisdom" these men that lived centuries after these authors had died, took it upon themselves to edit out everything that went against what they personally felt was the path this religion and its followers were to follow.

What provided them this right to undertake such a ludicrous action? How could they know or understand the true meaning and intention of the writers so many years later, much less know something more than they did surrounding the subject of said writings? They took it upon themselves to decide for humanity the path of the religion moving forward, because the true purpose of this whole activity was to create the new tool required to seize back the control lost when the leadership of the time became enlightened.

The book was assembled to purposely be vague and subjective in interpretation, to allow those who obtain positions of power within the church to wield power over the flock, to bend them to their will, and to allow them to accumulate personal wealth and power over the masses. As it has been utilized throughout history and continues to be. So certainly when empirical evidence is discovered there will be no limit to what can and will be done to obscure it; for it threatens their livelihood!

Throughout the subsequent centuries the leadership of Christianity has waffled upon interpretation of passages, providing explanations that best served their purpose at each time the questions arose; in each instance taking the stance that they are only passing along that which God has provided only to them, by speaking only to them. Placing themselves above all others amongst them and in the position to control and decide what is right and what is wrong.  After all, does not the book clearly document the divine power provided to a man by God, and since it is God he can provide this same power to those chosen by him for eternity!

It is no wonder then that all these centuries later humankind struggles to understand why it is so contradictory, and just how it is that a man can sit down and write a set of letters on the very same subject matter, but have the continuity broken up by the fact that others much later adjudicate certain portions of that writing as incorrect.  How can a man be divinely inspired one moment but not so in the next? Human greed is the answer. To exclude "letters" that document the fact that this same man married, that he had children, and when he was crucified his body was secreted away by those who loved him most, to be later laid to rest within a family tomb, only serve to further cast doubt upon the whole business.

Is it any more of a wonder that centuries after the completion of this book, when physical evidence providing empirical proof that a key foundational element of this book is wrong, is categorically denied and dismissed after a decade of it being hidden away from the world?

[Elaine]

I know you put a tremendous amount of thought into your response, and I respect you for your insights.

But, I believe that the Bible is a tool, that used as a guide in our daily life, will make us better people, and it is a fascinating book full of stories of war, and greed, and hunger for power, and victories.  From the Beatitudes to the Ten Commandments, it is a book that gives all who read it, and some who hear about it and never read it a sense of propriety, an idea of mans inhumanity, and the gifts of forgiveness.

What organized religion has done to that, however, is a whole new question in my mind.  I do believe that there is Heaven, and there is Hell.  I do believe that Jesus Christ came to this earth, that he lived and died as described, and that his appearance fulfilled a prophecy. 

Now I am not a scholar, nor have I been to even one theology class, nor do I know verse by verse, so I cant argue with another person about what I believe, but I know that I know. 

[Henry Hawk]

The Bible is made up of sixty-six books, written by as many as 40 people over the course of approximately 1,600 years. Both its writing and assemblage took place under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
It is God's written word and message to the people that He created....., and according to scripture itself, it is ... God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness....
God breathed may remain a mystery to us on HOW, exactly God 'communicated'...to His selected writers...but is accepted by those who have chosen to follow Him...as part of the required faith, that HAS to be acknowledged based upon it's countless endeavors throughout the whole Bible.  The compilation of letters, prophecies and historical facts, from the Old Testament, have all been been supported by findings such as Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Talmud and the Targums....there are thousands of manuscripts which support the New Testament, in Greek and Latin...by authors such as Aristotle, Plato and Caesar (to name a few)...... there are many references throughout the Bible that mentions Kings and nations, empires and cities, that have been proven accurate...even the timeline and dates are accurate.....there are descriptions of rivers and mountains and buildings that meet the test......the eyewitness accounts by the apostles all were written at different times, with different views, but they STILL have the same message.
It is also my very own opinion, to anyone who can accept that there IS a creator, who created the universe....why is it so hard to think, that He could also create a Bible, by utilizing men, like us, to use words and descriptions, that we would understand to not only tell us His ultimate message to us really is, but to create the desire of FAITH, that would make men to want to chose to accept Him as a God, who Loves us, and has a BIGGER plan, for our eternal life?  Palehorse, you always express yourself, very well on here, and with much compassion in your beliefs.  Logic is very important to anybody's conclusion on issues such as this....but I believe the whole truth that the Bible claims IS based upon logic....and it becomes more and more logical, the more you can accept a certain amount of faith....and I know that is where it loses many people....
I'm rambling and need to get back to business....more thoughts to come...later.

[Exterminator]

You should preface your post with, "I believe," rather than state it as fact.

[Palehorse]

. . .why is it so hard to think, that He could also create a Bible, by utilizing men, like us, to use words and descriptions, that we would understand to not only tell us His ultimate message to us really is, but to create the desire of FAITH, that would make men to want to chose to accept Him as a God, who Loves us, and has a BIGGER plan, for our eternal life?  Palehorse, you always express yourself, very well on here, and with much compassion in your beliefs.  Logic is very important to anybody's conclusion on issues such as this....but I believe the whole truth that the Bible claims IS based upon logic....and it becomes more and more logical, the more you can accept a certain amount of faith....and I know that is where it loses many people....
I'm rambling and need to get back to business....more thoughts to come...later.

And why is it so hard to believe that humankind would manipulate the words in order to utilize them as a means to build personal wealth and power, and guide the people toward the will of the few, or the one?

Remember, back during the days when the "Bible" was being written, folks believed the world to be flat, that within the wooded areas there be dragons, and great sea creatures ruled the waters. . . And later, witches were to be burned and the heathens made to confess. . .

Financial disaster is imploding personal wealth, but how many of these churches do you see being repossessed? That ain't divine intervention but rather the fleecing of the flock. And they are using "The Tool" to do it!

[Henry Hawk]

And why is it so hard to believe that humankind would manipulate the words in order to utilize them as a means to build personal wealth and power, and guide the people toward the will of the few, or the one?

Remember, back during the days when the "Bible" was being written, folks believed the world to be flat, that within the wooded areas there be dragons, and great sea creatures ruled the waters. . . And later, witches were to be burned and the heathens made to confess. . .

Financial disaster is imploding personal wealth, but how many of these churches do you see being repossessed? That ain't divine intervention but rather the fleecing of the flock. And they are using "The Tool" to do it!

I agree, that the Church, the Bible, God, and Religion has all been used to gain personal wealth and power.....that is the nature of man, the root to ALL evil.....

I simply do not believe that MAN was smart enough to design a book as powerful as the Bible, with continuty that it has, from book to book, without a divine intervention.

I have no problem believing that humankind has capitalized off of it's existence...there is no doubt about that.

That does not mean, that it was not devinely written, and it is in the exact context that God wanted it to be.

The book is full of stories of greed...it warns in great detail to watch out for this.
It also tells us the world is NOT flat.

It has been the all time best seller, year in and year out since it's beginning of mass publication.

[Henry Hawk]

You should preface your post with, "I believe," rather than state it as fact.

who are you referring too?...

[Exterminator]

who are you referring too?...

You.

[Henry Hawk]

You.

Help me out, and show me where I stated that anything was fact?.....I did state that portions WAS of my opinion......? 

If I came across as stating anything as FACT....it was NOT intended to be that way.....I just jumped in and began to through down my thougths.

[Palehorse]

. . .
I simply do not believe that MAN was smart enough to design a book as powerful as the Bible, with continuty that it has, from book to book, without a divine intervention.
. . .

Dianetics ~ L Ron Hubbard = Church of Scientology

[Exterminator]

Help me out, and show me where I stated that anything was fact?.....I did state that portions WAS of my opinion......? 

If I came across as stating anything as FACT....it was NOT intended to be that way.....I just jumped in and began to through down my thougths.

Please show where in the statement, "Both its writing and assemblage took place under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit," there is any hint that this is an opinion.

[Henry Hawk]

Dianetics ~ L Ron Hubbard = Church of Scientology

excuse me but that is not even CLOSE to be compared to the Bible....that guy does not even have a fraction of believers as does that derived from the Holy Bible...that man, even admitted to be a factious writer.

sorry, but not even close.

[Henry Hawk]

Please show where in the statement, "Both its writing and assemblage took place under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit," there is any hint that this is an opinion.

Sorry for YOUR confusion.....It was simply a reply BACK to palehorse, based upon his opinion....thanks for pointing it out, but it WAS/IS just an opinon of mine...that is all.

[Palehorse]

excuse me but that is not even CLOSE to be compared to the Bible....that guy does not even have a fraction of believers as does that derived from the Holy Bible...that man, even admitted to be a factious writer.

sorry, but not even close.

Then again, only a fraction of the time has passed in comparison too. Fact is the COS is growing and is the only "new" religion to be formally created during the twentieth century.

That of course is discounting the Church of the Chickenhawk. . .