Womb Days

[Palehorse]

Is that because cats do not forget and therefore are never dead or because they might sneak up and scratch your horse heinie?

No, rather due to their aloof persona, inability or unwillingness to communicate and interact effectively with their human masters, and uselessness. . .

I have the cure for that ass scratching - de-clawing. Works very well too. . .

How's about we stop talking about souls and start talking about intelligence as the determination of sentient life, and when a fetus becomes a person? . . .

Let's see. . . "Womb days". . . humm. . . .

[Palehorse]

And before you go off on a wild goose chase, consider that it is a medical fact that the brain and central nervous system must be fully developed before any conception of self, pain, or even being can materialize.

The part of the brain associated with thought, consciousness, emotion etc. is the cerebral cortex which forms the largest part of the developed brain, enveloping the lower structures  in two cerebral hemispheres, the first signs of which are visible at 5-6 weeks. The cortex itself starts as a layer of undifferentiated cells (the cortical plate) which grows rapidly in both size and complexity throughout gestation. Eight different cortical layers have developed by 38 weeks, and the characteristic convolutions (these increase the cortex surface area) are displayed towards the last two months . The brain continues to develop at the high rates typical of the fetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed.

After fertilization, the embryo's cells multiply and after about 10 days separate into the ectoderm (precursors of the outer skin, nervous system and other parts) and endoderm (precursor to the digestive system and lungs. no breathing without these babies!), soon separated by the mesoderm (to become muscles, bones, circulatory system etc. - can't live without these either). As growth continues, by 8-9 weeks all the basic tissues and organs of the fetus exist in their initial form.  This represents the start of the fetal period which lasts until birth during which time the fetus' length increases tenfold, its weight one thousand fold and its proportions change to those of the full-term baby.

At around 17 days, the ectoderm separates a 'neural plate' which folds to form a hollow tube (the neural tube) within which the spinal cord and brain will start to develop.  After the neural tube has closed (failure to close at the head end leads to anencephaly; at the bottom to spina bifida), the various regions of the nervous system start to develop, and the cells inside the tube proliferate to form the raw materials of the nervous system - the neurons.  As these grow in number (at the peak of growth, some million neurons are produced every four minutes), they sort themselves into layers each of which then develops further towards its end tissue (e.g. spinal cord, brain regions).  By attaching themselves to architectural cells called glial cells, the neurons start migrating to the positions in the developing nervous system which they need to reach in order to function properly.

The primitive structures of the brain (forebrain, midbrain and hindbrain) are recognizable by 4-5 weeks after conception and develop and grow into the many different parts of the brain.   The first signs of the brain's basic units (thalamus, cortex, etc.) are recognizable from around 6 weeks, and from then grow in size, develop the internal structure necessary to function, and interconnect throughout gestation; not reaching full development until 12 months or so post-birth.  Internal structural development is as important as size - for instance the cortical plate starts off as a single undifferentiated layer, but by 38-40 weeks has 8 differentiated layers.

The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built (e.g. the cerebral cortex has over 40 regions which regulate distinct processes). Development is a continuous process, not one separated by steps or jumps.   For instance, the future cerebral hemispheres are just recognizable at 5 weeks, from which point they grow rapidly  in size .   In parallel with the development in size goes the development of neural connections between the various parts of the brain and the overall structure (e.g. the cerebral cortex develops its characteristic convolutions in the last trimester).  When complete, sensory signals (including noxious stimuli) pass from peripheral nerves to the spinal column, through the brain stem and end principally in the thalamus.  Further nerve fibres link the thalamus to the cerebral cortex. 

The higher functions derive from the forebrain:

The thalamus receives most of the sensory input to the brain, and relays it to the appropriate region of the cortex via its projection fibres.

The hypothalamus looks after important body processes (e.g. water balance).

The cerebral cortex is the outer layer of the brain and comprises 80% of it and is responsible for our consciousness of self, ability to think, plan, perceive, communicate etc.

The limbic system is important to emotion, motivation and learning.

According to Dr Mark Hill, UNSW Embryology:

"Pain is a complex neurological response to a range of stressful or damaging stimuli (see IASP definition). Response to a painful stimulus can be mediated by simple spinal cord reflexes while pain perception requires an intact ascending neurological pain pathway and brain development."

"Pain in the postnatal human and models for pain perception have been developed and requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus."

http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/FetalPain.htm#Intro

In addition to this there are current medical studies that document that the chemicals present within the placenta and amniotic fluid possibly act to suppress awareness should it somehow become available within the gestational period. . .

Now, care to share those womb memories anyone? 

[LOsborne]

I don't understand what you have against using the Turing test, PH. Just hook the inputs to the thalamus and trust the projection fibres to reach the cerebral cortex.

[Palehorse]

I don't understand what you have against using the Turing test, PH. Just hook the inputs to the thalamus and trust the projection fibres to reach the cerebral cortex.

Too invasive and an unacceptable risk for secondary staph infection.

[LOsborne]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Palehorse]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Возможно оно потому что я имею такие плохие искусства понимания?

(Perhaps it is because I speak Russian have such poor comprehension skills?)

[Freethinker]

Freewanker and the rest of you pro lifers.

Here's a spot for each of you to share your fondest memories from the womb. If life begins there then why don't any of you remember anything from it?

Oh, but I do remember my time in the womb. It was during the 13th week that a premonition came to me, that in my 53rd year I would come upon a pale horse's ass.

Honestly, who remembers much from their first year, second year, third year...

I remember a few details from my fourth year, so that must have been when a spirit dove in during naptime, while I slept soundly with my mouth hanging open.

•Could it be because you had no spirit or soul until birth?

Like I said, apparently I didn't have one of those until my fourth year.

•Perhaps all those movements and supposed purposeful gestures really are nothing more than reflexive actions due to nerve ending development

And perhaps there is no such thing as a soul. Perhaps everything you do is learned.

•Or maybe you just are not really alive until the unification of spirit (soul) and physical being takes place?

LOL. You're such a scientist.

You say the mass of cells/parasitic growth/fetus is so alive in the womb. Tell us about your experiences in there! We're waiting!

Fine. How about you tell us all about your first month after you were born, genius?

*Recognizing up front that this topic will result in several pornographic responses I placed it here.

Say what? What does porn have to do with any of this? Forget your meds, or something?

[LOsborne]

I haven't attempted Russian since my sophomore year in college, when I came down with strep during finals week. I think it was a result of the Cyrillic view that vowels are a bourgeois luxury.

And then there was the classmate who hollered "Zdravitya!" (that's phonetic, sort of. I can't remember the Cyrillic spelling) at me on a dark street when I was befuddled, and scared the living snot out of me.

But I can beat a Turing test.

[Palehorse]

Oh, but I do remember my time in the womb. It was during the 13th week that a premonition came to me, that in my 53rd year I would come upon a pale horse's ass.

Okay. . . I'll play your game. . .

53 years and that's all you can come up with? Pitiful. . .

Honestly, who remembers much from their first year, second year, third year...

I remember a few details from my fourth year, so that must have been when a spirit dove in during naptime, while I slept soundly with my mouth hanging open.

Like I said, apparently I didn't have one of those until my fourth year.

Started early with substance abuse huh?

And perhaps there is no such thing as a soul. Perhaps everything you do is learned.

Had you anything of substance between your ears this might be a path worth traveling, however given your proclivity for juvenile behavioral patterns and responses, I think not.

LOL. You're such a scientist.

I'm sorry. Do you count psychic ability amongst your "gifts"?

Fine. How about you tell us all about your first month after you were born, genius?

You don't know me well enough for that type of informational response. That information is "need to know", and you don't.

Say what? What does porn have to do with any of this? Forget your meds, or something?

Oh. . . Lost the humor gene in that shallow end you were born in huh? How horrible for you. . . Maybe if you go back you can find it! Swim against the current!

Just as I suspected; non-responsive and goes to the insults as a last ditch act of desperation.

Thanks for playing, buh-bye. . .

[Palehorse]

I haven't attempted Russian since my sophomore year in college, when I came down with strep during finals week. I think it was a result of the Cyrillic view that vowels are a bourgeois luxury.

And then there was the classmate who hollered "Zdravitya!" (that's phonetic, sort of. I can't remember the Cyrillic spelling) at me on a dark street when I was befuddled, and scared the living snot out of me.

But I can beat a Turing test.

Hard on the uvula isn't it? 

Machines can beat the Turing test too. . . Hey. . . umm. . . you're not a bot or something are you?   

[LOsborne]

... you're not a bot or something are you?

BUSTED!!

[Palehorse]

BUSTED!!

Cy-borg. . .Gimme dat, gimmie dat; Cy-borg! (The balance of this posting has been censored by the central scrutinizer). . .

*Listen to Frank Zappa's "Joes Garage" recordings if you do not get this posting. . .

[Freethinker]

Just as I suspected; non-responsive and goes to the insults as a last ditch act of desperation.

Thanks for playing, buh-bye. . .

It's the best I could do, Palehorse, in responding to your own religiosity.

You have no facts. You are no friend to science.

Your analytical skills are non-existent.

Your beliefs about abortions are pure-D old wive's tales.

But you are fun to saddle up and ride. *digging both heels into your ribs.*

[Palehorse]

 

[LOsborne]

*Listen to Frank Zappa's "Joes Garage" recordings if you do not get this posting. . .

I got it.