Womb Days

[Palehorse]

Freewanker and the rest of you pro lifers.

Here's a spot for each of you to share your fondest memories from the womb. If life begins there then why don't any of you remember anything from it?

• Could it be because you had no spirit or soul until birth?
• Perhaps all those movements and supposed purposeful gestures really are nothing more than reflexive actions due to nerve ending development
• Or maybe you just are not really alive until the unification of spirit (soul) and physical being takes place?

You say the mass of cells/parasitic growth/fetus is so alive in the womb. Tell us about your experiences in there! We're waiting!

*Recognizing up front that this topic will result in several pornographic responses I placed it here.

[Locutus]

*Recognizing up front that this topic will result in several pornographic responses I placed it here.

 

[Palehorse]

And before you go off on a wild goose chase, consider that it is a medical fact that the brain and central nervous system must be fully developed before any conception of self, pain, or even being can materialize.

The part of the brain associated with thought, consciousness, emotion etc. is the cerebral cortex which forms the largest part of the developed brain, enveloping the lower structures  in two cerebral hemispheres, the first signs of which are visible at 5-6 weeks. The cortex itself starts as a layer of undifferentiated cells (the cortical plate) which grows rapidly in both size and complexity throughout gestation. Eight different cortical layers have developed by 38 weeks, and the characteristic convolutions (these increase the cortex surface area) are displayed towards the last two months . The brain continues to develop at the high rates typical of the fetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed.

After fertilization, the embryo's cells multiply and after about 10 days separate into the ectoderm (precursors of the outer skin, nervous system and other parts) and endoderm (precursor to the digestive system and lungs. no breathing without these babies!), soon separated by the mesoderm (to become muscles, bones, circulatory system etc. - can't live without these either). As growth continues, by 8-9 weeks all the basic tissues and organs of the fetus exist in their initial form.  This represents the start of the fetal period which lasts until birth during which time the fetus' length increases tenfold, its weight one thousand fold and its proportions change to those of the full-term baby.

At around 17 days, the ectoderm separates a 'neural plate' which folds to form a hollow tube (the neural tube) within which the spinal cord and brain will start to develop.  After the neural tube has closed (failure to close at the head end leads to anencephaly; at the bottom to spina bifida), the various regions of the nervous system start to develop, and the cells inside the tube proliferate to form the raw materials of the nervous system - the neurons.  As these grow in number (at the peak of growth, some million neurons are produced every four minutes), they sort themselves into layers each of which then develops further towards its end tissue (e.g. spinal cord, brain regions).  By attaching themselves to architectural cells called glial cells, the neurons start migrating to the positions in the developing nervous system which they need to reach in order to function properly.

The primitive structures of the brain (forebrain, midbrain and hindbrain) are recognizable by 4-5 weeks after conception and develop and grow into the many different parts of the brain.   The first signs of the brain's basic units (thalamus, cortex, etc.) are recognizable from around 6 weeks, and from then grow in size, develop the internal structure necessary to function, and interconnect throughout gestation; not reaching full development until 12 months or so post-birth.  Internal structural development is as important as size - for instance the cortical plate starts off as a single undifferentiated layer, but by 38-40 weeks has 8 differentiated layers.

The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built (e.g. the cerebral cortex has over 40 regions which regulate distinct processes). Development is a continuous process, not one separated by steps or jumps.   For instance, the future cerebral hemispheres are just recognizable at 5 weeks, from which point they grow rapidly  in size .   In parallel with the development in size goes the development of neural connections between the various parts of the brain and the overall structure (e.g. the cerebral cortex develops its characteristic convolutions in the last trimester).  When complete, sensory signals (including noxious stimuli) pass from peripheral nerves to the spinal column, through the brain stem and end principally in the thalamus.  Further nerve fibres link the thalamus to the cerebral cortex. 

The higher functions derive from the forebrain:

The thalamus receives most of the sensory input to the brain, and relays it to the appropriate region of the cortex via its projection fibres.

The hypothalamus looks after important body processes (e.g. water balance).

The cerebral cortex is the outer layer of the brain and comprises 80% of it and is responsible for our consciousness of self, ability to think, plan, perceive, communicate etc.

The limbic system is important to emotion, motivation and learning.

According to Dr Mark Hill, UNSW Embryology:

"Pain is a complex neurological response to a range of stressful or damaging stimuli (see IASP definition). Response to a painful stimulus can be mediated by simple spinal cord reflexes while pain perception requires an intact ascending neurological pain pathway and brain development."

"Pain in the postnatal human and models for pain perception have been developed and requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus."

http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/FetalPain.htm#Intro

In addition to this there are current medical studies that document that the chemicals present within the placenta and amniotic fluid possibly act to suppress awareness should it somehow become available within the gestational period. . .

Now, care to share those womb memories anyone? 

[mageepet]

I don't remember what happened when I was one year old, either, but it doesn't mean I was not alive!   So are you saying if you can't remember the past to recount it, you weren't alive?  If so then a great many people have large holes in their times of being alive.

[Palehorse]

I don't remember what happened when I was one year old, either, but it doesn't mean I was not alive!   So are you saying if you can't remember the past to recount it, you weren't alive?  If so then a great many people have large holes in their times of being alive.

Perhaps you missed this part:  The brain continues to develop at the high rates typical of the fetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed. . .

The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built . . .

Your question surrounding memory and inability to "recall" may find its root cause in neuron, nerve ending or inter-connection damage induced via ingestion of substances known to degrade them, environmental causes, disease, or physically induced damages. . .

In any case awareness must have taken place prior to any cognizant ability to interpret pain and development of memory, and in order for that to transpire the development of its communication channels must have been completed.

[mcgonser]

I have definite memory gaps throughout all my life. Does that mean I was not alive at that time, or just that I am getting old. Darnit

[Palehorse]

I have definite memory gaps throughout all my life. Does that mean I was not alive at that time, or just that I am getting old. Darnit

. . .
Your question surrounding memory and inability to "recall" may find its root cause in neuron, nerve ending or inter-connection damage induced via ingestion of substances known to degrade them, environmental causes, disease, or physically induced damages. . .

[mcgonser]

Oh man Pale, please tell me that you have a cure for me. Although sometimes it is convenient to have a bad memory

[Palehorse]

Oh man Pale, please tell me that you have a cure for me. Although sometimes it is convenient to have a bad memory

• Lay off the substances known to degrade brain cells

• Live in a HAZMAT suit and never take it off

• Stay inside all the time too

• Don't get old

[/list]

Studies have shown that the more you exercise your brain the less the impact aging and disease have upon your mental abilities.

Do the math, crosswords, brain-teasers, and other mental exercises that stimulate the nerve endings in your brain, and it decreases the degradation of the receptors and nerve endings exponentially.   

[mageepet]

Perhaps you missed this part:  The brain continues to develop at the high rates typical of the fetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed. . .

The brains' physical development is only partly complete at birth, and continues at fetal rates for another year before all key areas are built . . .

Your question surrounding memory and inability to "recall" may find its root cause in neuron, nerve ending or inter-connection damage induced via ingestion of substances known to degrade them, environmental causes, disease, or physically induced damages. . .

In any case awareness must have taken place prior to any cognizant ability to interpret pain and development of memory, and in order for that to transpire the development of its communication channels must have been completed.

Perhaps, I missed nothing. I just found the idea that because you couldn't remember something meant you weren't alive , as ridiculous.  Not good logic even for a big horse...

[Palehorse]

Perhaps, I missed nothing. I just found the idea that because you couldn't remember something meant you weren't alive , as ridiculous.  Not good logic even for a big horse...

Comprehension skills? Got em?


. . .
Your question surrounding memory and inability to "recall" may find its root cause in neuron, nerve ending or inter-connection damage induced via ingestion of substances known to degrade them, environmental causes, disease, or physically induced damages. . .

. . .

[mageepet]

Yep, how about you?  Or have you forgotten what you said and are therefor no longer alive?

[Palehorse]

Yep, how about you?  Or have you forgotten what you said and are therefor no longer alive?

Yet another reason to dislike cats. . . 

[mageepet]

Is that because cats do not forget and therefore are never dead or because they might sneak up and scratch your horse heinie?

[LOsborne]

How's about we stop talking about souls and start talking about intelligence as the determination of sentient life, and when a fetus becomes a person? It worked well for Star Trek.  As the yardstick, I recommend the Turing test. If we can't tell the fetus from the computer, then the fetus can be judged intelligent, and deserving of full protection under the constitution.

Really, y'all, I know we all adore babies. But we love puppies and kittens, too. There just ain't much going on behind those big blue eyes for the first six months or so. (Much longer in many cases. sigh)