Democrats SUCK!!

[Palehorse]

I was referring to our manufactoring industry....

Same theory, same methodology at work. The only differences are the tactics and propaganda utilized.

THEY ARE too still a factor.....but, YES I have state several, several, several times ....BOTH sides contributed to it!

I submit that since manufacturing positions are below 1950's levels, the resulting decrease in numbers of workers covered under a collective bargaining agreements makes them a non-issue at this juncture. To believe otherwise is akin to screaming fire after the barn has already burnt down!

[Henry Hawk]

Same theory, same methodology at work. The only differences are the tactics and propaganda utilized.

I submit that since manufacturing positions are below 1950's levels, the resulting decrease in numbers of workers covered under a collective bargaining agreements makes them a non-issue at this juncture. To believe otherwise is akin to screaming fire after the barn has already burnt down!

Well, the United States still produces approximately 21% of the world's manufacturing output, a number which has remained unchanged for the last 40 years....this is due somewhat to technology.  Being a believer in free enterprise, I say that this number should have went up, but due to the fact that the collective bargaining agreements on manufacturing was over zealous.... it went down.  I still say, that when a person can be paid $65 per hour for wages and benefits for an unskilled position....it is over zealous.  It has NOTHING to do with "jealosy" as the troll likes to put it.  I think about what is best for Americans and this country.  My sister worked for Honda, she got paid over $20 per hour, had vacation time, Health care, and a performance bonus.  I can think of SEVERAL Americans who would "Kill" for this type of work.

It is time to get serious about our Country, and start doing the right things.....imo.

[The Troll]

   The pendulum of life swings back and forward.  Before the unions the fat cats ruled and the lives of the workers sucked.  The pendulum has swung back where the fat cats are back in control and you can see workers lives suck again, nothing for the workers only the fat cats receiving the cream of life.

  Let us hope that it will swing back and it's not to late and we haven't killed the golden goose that laid the golden eggs, the American workers that made America it what it was.  Great.

[Henry Hawk]

   The pendulum of life swings back and forward.  Before the unions the fat cats ruled and the lives of the workers sucked.  The pendulum has swung back where the fat cats are back in control and you can see workers lives suck again, nothing for the workers only the fat cats receiving the cream of life.

  Let us hope that it will swing back and it's not to late and we haven't killed the golden goose that laid the golden eggs, the American workers that made America it what it was.  Great.

I too am all for the American workers, and agree that it is these guys who make America great.....let's find some common ground so it works for both the workers and the owners.

[The Troll]

  It is amazing how some people can't see the forest for the trees.  What is it 8 Million jobs already outsourced  and they expect 3 Million in the next 10 years, I'm quite sure it will be more.  They are always underestimating job outsourcing.

  That the matter is the American people have been trained by the importers to buy the cheapest thing they can buy.  Price over quality.  No pride in buying and paying for something made in America.  To hell with the American worker.
 
  Selfish young people who has had all of the good things America and the unions brought to them, on a golden platter.  Greedy beyond imagination.   Too blind to see and too stupid to understand.

[Henry Hawk]

  It is amazing how some people can't see the forest for the trees.  What is it 8 Million jobs already outsourced  and they expect 3 Million in the next 10 years, I'm quite sure it will be more.  They are always underestimating job outsourcing.

  That the matter is the American people have been trained by the importers to buy the cheapest thing they can buy.  Price over quality.  No pride in buying and paying for something made in America.  To hell with the American worker.
 
  Selfish young people who has had all of the good things America and the unions brought to them, on a golden platter.  Greedy beyond imagination.   Too blind to see and too stupid to understand.

Just for arguements sake, IF we can get more jobs, without the inflated UAW stigma, and create more jobs like Honda and Toyota has to offer, and create a healthy working class of Americans, THEN maybe folks could hold out and buy American once again.  As it is now, with tough times, people are going to buy the cheapest they can, to get b on.
I don't think "stupid" and "blind" has anything to do with it......it is about making ends meet.

[Palehorse]

Well, the United States still produces approximately 21% of the world's manufacturing output, a number which has remained unchanged for the last 40 years....this is due somewhat to technology.  Being a believer in free enterprise, I say that this number should have went up, but due to the fact that the collective bargaining agreements on manufacturing was over zealous.... it went down.  I still say, that when a person can be paid $65 per hour for wages and benefits for an unskilled position....it is over zealous.  It has NOTHING to do with "jealosy" as the troll likes to put it.  I think about what is best for Americans and this country.  My sister worked for Honda, she got paid over $20 per hour, had vacation time, Health care, and a performance bonus.  I can think of SEVERAL Americans who would "Kill" for this type of work.

It is time to get serious about our Country, and start doing the right things.....imo.

"Getting serious" about improving the quality of life, for both employers and employees is the goal for everyone involved; or should be. You quote "$65" per hour as a benchmark, but in reality what do you think the actual hourly pay rate is? The number you quote includes benefits, and the lions share of the costs related to benefits are related to healthcare!

Over the past 5-8 years as collective bargaining agreements have expired, the cost of healthcare has been the lynchpin for disagreements between both sides. While unions conceded in the area of hourly wages, with the full support of their membership and in recognition of the increasing costs to employers to continue to operate and realize profits, when employers demanded increased premiums for healthcare it invariably broke the negotiations and hindered progress.

Healthcare costs have skyrocketed, with companies increasing annual premiums by 30 - 60% each and every year! And while we can argue until the next century over the validity of sharing the burden between employers and employees, it will do NOTHING to positively impact the root cause of the problem; the deregulation of the health insurance industry.

It is very clear to me that over the past 20-30 years the health care insurance industry has run wild. It started with them second guessing the doctors prescribing treatments and medications and has now become this uncontrollable monster with very deep pockets that has more of our elected officials in its pockets than not. And they charge more and more for less coverage each and every year.

That situation, when combined with abuses on both sides of the negotiating tables of this country, was the straw that broke the camel's back, and when our nation opened its boarders and created an escape hatch from all of it, well of course manufacturing took it!

I don't know where you got the 21% information, but the information I am seeing from 2008 indicates the US share of global manufacturing output stood at 18%, with China running a close second at 15%.
(Here's an article that I found a pretty good read on the subject: http://www.mbtmag.com/Content.aspx?id=1925)

And while it may be true that the US output levels have remained fairly constant, the reason for this are advances in processes connected to LEAN and automation efforts, both of which enable a given company to "do more with less", and a direct result of cost cutting measures. The number of employees engaged in manufacturing has been in a nose dive since its peak in 1979.

Combine this with the fact that increasingly the remaining employers in this country are "backfilling" labor roles, not with new full time employees but rather with temporary workers, in order to skirt the requirement to provide benefits, and you will obtain a better picture of just how negatively rising healthcare costs have impacted business in this country, and the dire need that is present to drive healthcare reform and regulation!

IMHO if this country truly desires to correct the problems it has, and desires to see manufacturing return to this nation, then it must address the root causes for its flight; healthcare costs, labor practices and abuse, and closing the loopholes and unfair competition that legislation like NAFTA creates!

Until we do these things, China, Japan, and every other nation in the world will continue to make major strides in replacing the US in this sector!

Just for arguements sake, IF we can get more jobs, without the inflated UAW stigma, and create more jobs like Honda and Toyota has to offer, and create a healthy working class of Americans, THEN maybe folks could hold out and buy American once again.  As it is now, with tough times, people are going to buy the cheapest they can, to get b on.
I don't think "stupid" and "blind" has anything to do with it......it is about making ends meet.

I have a challenge for you. Go ANYWHERE, to ANY store in this country, and buy ONE piece of clothing that is manufactured in the United States of America. I am betting you will be VERY hard pressed to do so. Why?

Consider that the policies enacted by JFK back in the 60's, (when the US manufactured 50% of the clothing made in the entire world), that were very similar to more recent policies IE NAFTA, and created the very same escape hatch for the apparel and textile industries, have served to so dismantle those industries in the US, that today less than 5% of the clothing manufactured in the world is made in the US! You can't even buy underwear made in this country anymore!

And, the reality is, once it is gone there is VERY little likelihood of it returning, unless the country puts controls into place that level the playing field and enacts legislation that penalizes corporations for selling products that are not manufactured in the US.

Unless you want to pay 100 dollars a pair for underwear, there is no way that is going to happen in the apparel or textile industries. Those left so long ago that their processes and facilities located in this country are obsolete, and the investments required to recreate and relocate them back to this country, when combined with the legislative penalties required to force them back, will drive those kinds of prices, NOT the hourly wage of the workers.

Even medical device / pharma manufacturers are fleeing this country, with companies like Hoffman La Roche set to lay off 4,000 - 6,800 MORE employees this year; following the 1,000's they have already laid off to relocate manufacturing operations from Indianapolis to Germany.

So, while you may think your medicines and medical supplies are safe because they are "manufactured in the USA", you had better think again, because increasingly they are being manufactured in Europe and other countries, then packaged for US sales. . .

[Palehorse]

"Getting serious" about improving the quality of life, for both employers and employees is the goal for everyone involved; or should be. You quote "$65" per hour as a benchmark, but in reality what do you think the actual hourly pay rate is? The number you quote includes benefits, and the lions share of the costs related to benefits are related to healthcare!

Over the past 5-8 years as collective bargaining agreements have expired, the cost of healthcare has been the lynchpin for disagreements between both sides. While unions conceded in the area of hourly wages, with the full support of their membership and in recognition of the increasing costs to employers to continue to operate and realize profits, when employers demanded increased premiums for healthcare it invariably broke the negotiations and hindered progress.

Healthcare costs have skyrocketed, with companies increasing annual premiums by 30 - 60% each and every year! And while we can argue until the next century over the validity of sharing the burden between employers and employees, it will do NOTHING to positively impact the root cause of the problem; the deregulation of the health insurance industry.

It is very clear to me that over the past 20-30 years the health care insurance industry has run wild. It started with them second guessing the doctors prescribing treatments and medications and has now become this uncontrollable monster with very deep pockets that has more of our elected officials in its pockets than not. And they charge more and more for less coverage each and every year.

That situation, when combined with abuses on both sides of the negotiating tables of this country, was the straw that broke the camel's back, and when our nation opened its boarders and created an escape hatch from all of it, well of course manufacturing took it!

I don't know where you got the 21% information, but the information I am seeing from 2008 indicates the US share of global manufacturing output stood at 18%, with China running a close second at 15%.
(Here's an article that I found a pretty good read on the subject: http://www.mbtmag.com/Content.aspx?id=1925)

And while it may be true that the US output levels have remained fairly constant, the reason for this are advances in processes connected to LEAN and automation efforts, both of which enable a given company to "do more with less", and a direct result of cost cutting measures. The number of employees engaged in manufacturing has been in a nose dive since its peak in 1979.

Combine this with the fact that increasingly the remaining employers in this country are "backfilling" labor roles, not with new full time employees but rather with temporary workers, in order to skirt the requirement to provide benefits, and you will obtain a better picture of just how negatively rising healthcare costs have impacted business in this country, and the dire need that is present to drive healthcare reform and regulation!

IMHO if this country truly desires to correct the problems it has, and desires to see manufacturing return to this nation, then it must address the root causes for its flight; healthcare costs, labor practices and abuse, and closing the loopholes and unfair competition that legislation like NAFTA creates!

Until we do these things, China, Japan, and every other nation in the world will continue to make major strides in replacing the US in this sector!
I have a challenge for you. Go ANYWHERE, to ANY store in this country, and buy ONE piece of clothing that is manufactured in the United States of America. I am betting you will be VERY hard pressed to do so. Why?

Consider that the policies enacted by JFK back in the 60's, (when the US manufactured 50% of the clothing made in the entire world), that were very similar to more recent policies IE NAFTA, and created the very same escape hatch for the apparel and textile industries, have served to so dismantle those industries in the US, that today less than 5% of the clothing manufactured in the world is made in the US! You can't even buy underwear made in this country anymore!

And, the reality is, once it is gone there is VERY little likelihood of it returning, unless the country puts controls into place that level the playing field and enacts legislation that penalizes corporations for selling products that are not manufactured in the US.

Unless you want to pay 100 dollars a pair for underwear, there is no way that is going to happen in the apparel or textile industries. Those left so long ago that their processes and facilities located in this country are obsolete, and the investments required to recreate and relocate them back to this country, when combined with the legislative penalties required to force them back, will drive those kinds of prices, NOT the hourly wage of the workers.

Even medical device / pharma manufacturers are fleeing this country, with companies like Hoffman La Roche set to lay off 4,000 - 6,800 MORE employees this year; following the 1,000's they have already laid off to relocate manufacturing operations from Indianapolis to Germany.

So, while you may think your medicines and medical supplies are safe because they are "manufactured in the USA", you had better think again, because increasingly they are being manufactured in Europe and other countries, then packaged for US sales. . .

POSTSCRIPT: Of the 21 industries that comprise manufacturing in this country, all 21 have shown a decline, and 17 of those 21 exceed 10% declines!

[The Troll]

  Man you really hit it on the nail of the head when you said Automation has gotten rid of a lot of American jobs. 

  The other night on "Science" cable show it showed a KIA auto plant.  A Korean car company who has a auto plant in Georgia.  The body assembly line, once the floor pan is put on to the automated line, it's untouched by human hands.  You could have a bunch of Red Neck Monkeys watching the assembling of a car body.

  But what is sicking this foreign car company got all kind of tax avoidance from the state and county.  Ground was given to them.  Roads built for them free.  But what is the real sweet deal,  KIA pay lower wages lower benefits and they get to keep all of the profit and they send it back to Korea.  Sure sounds fair, doesn't it.  Good old free trade.  Sucking the money and energy out of America.  Is that fair?

  And little ole KIA shipped almost 1 million cars into the country, duty free.  Sounds fair, doesn't it.  Who made these trade deals, why it was the Republican Party, shills of the super rich and the corporations.  The bastards.

[The Troll]

THEY ARE too still a factor.....but, YES I have state several, several, several times ....BOTH sides contributed to it!

  I have one question.  Why does the American worker have to compete with cheap and slave wages of foreign countries.  Fight for the cheapest products, poorly made junk and poison merchandise.

   WE are fighting a Communist country who is building a large military, spy's trying to steal all of our secrets.  Fighting it the bottom of low wages and poor working conditions and starvation.  All for some cheap Walmart junk.  Tell me I'm wrong.

[Henry Hawk]

  I have one question.  Why does the American worker have to compete with cheap and slave wages of foreign countries.  Fight for the cheapest products, poorly made junk and poison merchandise.

   WE are fighting a Communist country who is building a large military, spy's trying to steal all of our secrets.  Fighting it the bottom of low wages and poor working conditions and starvation.  All for some cheap Walmart junk.  Tell me I'm wrong.

Then what is your solution? How exactly would you fix this problem?

[Anne]

Simple, Henry, elect more democrats!  <sarcasm>

[Palehorse]

Well. . . isn't that special!

[The Troll]

Then what is your solution? How exactly would you fix this problem?

  Renegotiate all trade treaties.  And reciprocal tariffs, like Korea has a 40% tariff of American cars.  With this Korea has to pay us 40% on each car they send us.  With them sending almost a million cars.  That would quite a chunk.  Also it would level the playing field, the differance in the price of labor.

  China has a 30% tariff on Americans cars.  Korea won't let in any meat.  Reciprocal prices of tariffs and on things not let in.  It would sure stop the double dealing our trading partners are pulling on us now.    the free trade bullshit.

[The Troll]

  OK Palehorse what did you do,  Newbe NightHawk was on me like stink on shit.  I got tire of it, because it was redishing the same old, same old with Henry and Me.

  But you come in and give the dick a little real information and Poof he's gone.      Just loved it.