Recent postings have me wondering. I have long been an admirer of Thomas Jefferson, a man who many of you claim to be a founder of our "Christian Nation."
Jefferson wrote (or rather compiled) his own Bible. Here in a letter to John Adams, he describes his work. How many of you can read this and still say this country was founded on Christian faith?
In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurges, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of ... or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines.
He also wrote "Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God." He called the writers of the New Testament "ignorant, unlettered men" who produced "superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications." He called the Apostle Paul the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as "mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." He believed that the clergy used religion as a "mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves" and that "in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty." And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that "the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Of course, many of you will read that last quote - ""the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
and race to prove it wrong. I have also seen those sites - for instance http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/07/07/false-founding-father-quotes-f/ (http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/07/07/false-founding-father-quotes-f/)
BULLSHIT!
The fricking ORIGINAL LETTERS are in the Library of Congress!!!!!
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtj1&fileName=mtj1page053.db&recNum=840 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtj1&fileName=mtj1page053.db&recNum=840)
We are a nation first. That most of our population ascribe to xtianity doesn't have anything to do with our being a nation. It's merely an interesting factoid about the populace.
I almost started a thread about Jesus and Paul after reading some of the posts in the RFRA thread.
I don't know how anyone can claim affiliation/acceptance of Jesus and accept Paul/Pauline doctrine.
Quote from: Bo D on April 03, 2015, 05:12:22 PM
Of course, many of you will read that last quote - ""the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
and race to prove it wrong. I have also seen those sites - for instance http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/07/07/false-founding-father-quotes-f/ (http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/07/07/false-founding-father-quotes-f/)
BULLSHIT!
The fricking ORIGINAL LETTERS are in the Library of Congress!!!!!
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtj1&fileName=mtj1page053.db&recNum=840 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtj1&fileName=mtj1page053.db&recNum=840)
Who are you arguing with..😂 nobody even challengedcyou on anything! 😁. You even cussed at me!..😂
Quote from: Bo D on April 03, 2015, 04:44:07 PM
Recent postings have me wondering. I have long been an admirer of Thomas Jefferson, a man who many of you claim to be a founder of our "Christian Nation."
Jefferson wrote (or rather compiled) his own Bible. Here in a letter to John Adams, he describes his work. How many of you can read this and still say this country was founded on Christian faith?
In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurges, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of ... or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines.
He also wrote "Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God." He called the writers of the New Testament "ignorant, unlettered men" who produced "superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications." He called the Apostle Paul the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as "mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." He believed that the clergy used religion as a "mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves" and that "in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty." And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that "the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
I think I may have inherited Jefferson's spirit or something! :spooked:
That line of thought fairly parallels some of my own! :spooked:
Quote from: Bo D on April 03, 2015, 04:44:07 PM
He believed that the clergy used religion as a "mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves" and that "in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty."
Anyone who doubts whether or not this is true need only look up Rodrigo Lanzol Borgia, better known as Pope Alexander VI.
Quote from: Bo D on April 03, 2015, 04:44:07 PM
Recent postings have me wondering. I have long been an admirer of Thomas Jefferson, a man who many of you claim to be a founder of our "Christian Nation."
Jefferson wrote (or rather compiled) his own Bible. Here in a letter to John Adams, he describes his work. How many of you can read this and still say this country was founded on Christian faith?
With that same tone of logic, based upon the following quotes by several of our founding fathers, can read this and still say this country was NOT founded on Christian faith?
John Adams
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
John Quincy Adams
In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.
Elias Boudinot
Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned... [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ's sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.Charles Carroll
Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.
Benjamin Franklin
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.
John Jay
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
and I have a WHOLE bunch more where this come from....
:yes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 06, 2015, 01:19:09 PM
With that same tone of logic, based upon the following quotes by several of our founding fathers, can read this and still say this country was NOT founded on Christian faith?
John Adams
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
and I have a WHOLE bunch more where this come from.... :yes:
And they are nearly all misquotes and cobbled together from different sources to make it sound as if the writer claimed our government was based on Christianity.
Take that first one from John Adams.
Here is the FULL QUOTE IN CONTEXT!
Who composed that army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes? There were among them Roman Catholics, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants, and House Protestants, Deists and Atheists, and Protestants "qui ne croyent rien." Very few, however, of several of these species; nevertheless, all educated in the general principles of Christianity, and the general principles of English and American liberty.
Could my answer be understood by any candid reader or hearer, to recommend to all the others the general principles, institutions, or systems of education of the Roman Catholics, or those of the Quakers, or those of the Presbyterians, or those of the Methodists, or those of the Moravians, or those of the Universalists, or those of the Philosophers? No. The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young men could unite, and these principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general principles? I answer, the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united, and the general principles of English and American liberty, in which all those young men united, and which had united all parties in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature and our terrestrial, mundane system. I could, therefore, safely say, consistently with all my then and present information, that I believed they would never make discoveries in contradiction to these general principles. In favor of these general principles, in philosophy, religion, and government, I could fill sheets of quotations from Frederic of Prussia, from Hume, Gibbon, Bolingbroke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, as well as Newton and Locke; not to mention thousands of divines and philosophers of inferior fame.See how your version leaves out vast portions and puts together unrelated sentence?
To infer that Adams was a Christian is more than deceit. It is an outright lie.
You can find these quotes in the Library of Congress from the original letters of John Adams.
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
"
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
– John Adams
And Benjamin Franklin? :haha: :haha: :haha:
". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
Quote from: Bo D on April 06, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
To infer that Adams was a Christian is more than deceit. It is an outright lie.
And they have no compunction whatsoever with doing so despite it being in direct violation of one of the fundamental tenets of the religion they claim to follow. It's all bullshit.
Quote from: Bo D on April 06, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
– John Adams
And YOU are doing the very thing you are claiming I am doing...here's the complete quotation in an April 19, 1817, letter to Thomas Jefferson:
Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.
You left off a very important part of that quote Bo
:yes: Does that make YOU a liar?
I can all day long with accurate quotes from our forefathers....YOU possible pick and choose a FEW of them that MIGHT indicate a lack of religion..
..
Even IF, you can perhaps indicate a FEW of our forefathers were Deists...the question you asked in this thread "was country was founded on Christian faith?"
Even Ben and Adams were both FANS of the Christian Faith....
Benjamin Franklin's Creed (http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/benjamin_frankl.html)
A few weeks before his death at age 84, Benjamin Franklin summarized his religious beliefs, in terms with which I could readily associate myself:
You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few words to gratify it.
Here is my creed.
- I believe in one God, the creator of the universe.
- That he governs by his providence.
- That he ought to be worshipped.
- That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children.
- That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.
These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire,
- I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes,
- and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity;
- though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.
- I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed;
- especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.
Benj. Franklin, Letter to Ezra Stiles (http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/religion/franklin-religion.html), 9 March 1790,
in John Bigelow, ed.,
The Works of Benjamin Franklin, at 12:185-86 (New York: Putnam's, 1904)
Quote from: Bo D on April 06, 2015, 01:49:16 PM
And Benjamin Franklin? :haha: :haha: :haha:
I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?
-
A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district -- all studied and appreciated as they merit -- are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty.
-
I have been religiously educated as a Presbyterian; and ... I was never without religious principles. -
Though I seldom attended any public worship, I had still an opinion of its propriety, and of its utility when rightly conducted, and I regularly paid my annual subscription for the support of the only Presbyterian minister or meeting we had in Philadelphia. He used to visit me sometimes as a friend, and admonish me to attend his administration.
-
Whoever shall introduce into public affairs the principals of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world.
Hank, what's the Supreme Law of the Land?
You'll be lucky to get a response - much less a cogent response - from Hank.
Anyone with a modicum of sense and research ability knows that the Founding Fathers went to extremes to make certain religion wasn't the basis of our Republic. They knew what religion had caused in Europe, and even in the Colonies and they made certain to avoid that fault.
Hell, the Colonies would have never gotten together into a single national government/nation had religion been involved as these RW/TP/Evangelicals continue to claim in defiance of reality/truth!
These religious nuts don't want accommodation, they want dominion when they're pushing for that phoney 'religious freedom' - and it's as much race based as it is authoritarian/religious.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 06, 2015, 01:53:52 PM
And YOU are doing the very thing you are claiming I am doing...
No ... I did that on purpose just to show you how drastically meanings can change when taken out of context.
What you did was post something .... "John Adams - The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." that was cobbled together from bits and pieces of sentences. I didn't accuse you of lying. You're too clueless to do that. But you passed on someone else's lie. And that, in a way, makes it your own.
Say what you will, but the FACTS support that this Nation WAS built on Christian and Godly principals.
I'm not claiming anything other than the FACT our forefathers all recognized the importance of religion. That there is great deal of evidence that America's Founders were influenced by Christian ideas. At the very least, Christianity had a very significant influence on them.
Y, you are dead wrong, most Christian Americans are NOT promoting dominion of their faith, but indeed they DO want accommodations kept in place. We totally understand that our constitution wasn't designed only for fellow believers, but that all men and women should be free to worship God (or not) as their consciences dictate...without interference of federal laws.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 08:52:12 AM
I'm not claiming you are dead. Our forefathers all recognized the importance of influence on them. They DO want accommodations.
Our constitution wasn't designed to worship God.
You wrote those very words. :sm39:
:)
You obviously don't want to be logical about this.
I'm tapping out for the day. :yes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 09:13:45 AM
:)
You obviously don't want to be logical about this.
I'm tapping out for the day. :yes:
What could be more logical?
(http://www.toplessrobot.com/assets_c/2012/05/Mad%20-%20Star%20Trek%20IV-thumb-450x588.jpg)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 08:52:12 AM
Say what you will, but the FACTS support that this Nation WAS built on Christian and Godly principals.
Because that's the interpretation from someone who can barely read and you can bury him in evidence to the contrary and it won't change his thinking one iota.
Quote...most Christian Americans are NOT promoting dominion of their faith...
This is absolute, pure, unadulterated bullshit.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 07, 2015, 09:30:22 AM
This is absolute, pure, unadulterated bullshit.
Is this your way of saying you disagree with me??
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 10:01:53 AM
Is this your way of saying you disagree with me??
It's my way of saying that nothing would make Christians happier than to have their own version of Sharia law governing the country.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 07, 2015, 10:45:58 AM
It's my way of saying that nothing would make Christians happier than to have their own version of Sharia law governing the country.
Not true, not true at all.... :no:
But you are entitled to YOUR opinion. :yes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 10:48:25 AM
But you are entitled to YOUR opinion. :yes:
Is it incomprehensible to you why people would think that?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 08:52:12 AM
Say what you will, but the FACTS support that this Nation WAS built on Christian and Godly principals.
Name one (singularly xtian/gawdly principle)?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 08:52:12 AM
Y, you are dead wrong, most Christian Americans are NOT promoting dominion of their faith, but indeed they DO want accommodations kept in place.
Hank, that's a flat out lie and you know it. Ever since laws which had ensconced your 'faith' into the legal system have been struck down, repealed, or eliminated, you religious types have allied yourselves with RW politics and have been pushing your phoney 'religious' agenda back into the legal system.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 08:52:12 AM
We totally understand that our constitution wasn't designed only for fellow believers, but that all men and women should be free to worship God (or not) as their consciences dictate...without interference of federal laws.
What "federal laws" prevent you from 'worshiping' gawd as your consciences dictate - or even 'practice'?
An addendum:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know you stupid State's Righters are always whining about the Federal government, but you lost that war back in the mid 1800s and it was finally put to rest approximately a hundred years later.
The Federal government must be overarching else we would be another Europe - a conglomeration of mini-countries with separate laws and governments instead of one nation with one set of laws and one government. We can't be a singular nation and have the individual states acting as autonomous entities.
I don't know why you RW/TP/Evangelicals want to be, and remain, so deliberately STUPID!
Quote from: Exterminator on April 07, 2015, 02:03:56 PM
Is it incomprehensible to you why people would think that?
Yes, because (MY OPINION, based upon people I know, and what I read) are NOT wanting our OWN version of Sharia Law. Just to follow our Constitutional Rights....Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, that IS correct, but they did not separate God from state. They acknowledged God (endowed by our Creator) as the source of our rights.
Thomas Jefferson, himself said the following:
"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ...."
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?"I don't know HOW you can think likewise....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 03:11:11 PM
I don't know HOW you can think likewise....[/color]
Did you mean otherwise? Couldn't those liberties have simply been bestowed by nature or is liberty the private domain of fictional characters?
Faith is a part of American Culture....this is a historically accurate truth...
Our Liberty is a gift from God and stated so in the Declaration of Independence...
The vast majority of our ancestors embraced Judea-Christian Values...
Abe Lincoln reminded us in the Gettysburg Address....that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom...
George Washington reminded us "It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to OBEY His will, to be GRATEFUL for His benefits, and HUMBLY to implore His protections and favor"...
John Winthrop, one of the first settlers, talked about American being that "Shining City on a Hill"...his reflection of One Nation Under God......
I am out of time, but MAN, I can go ALL DAY on this...there is zero doubt, we were founded by Godly men, with Godly intentions.
Zero doubt in your mind because your faith is so weak it requires validation. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 03:11:11 PM
Yes, because (MY OPINION, based upon people I know, and what I read) are NOT wanting our OWN version of Sharia Law.
Of course you are. Any time you attempt to implement your 'religious' beliefs, practices, or prejudices into law, you are codifying your religion JUST like so many moooo-slems do with their 'religion'.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 03:11:11 PM
Just to follow our Constitutional Rights....Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, that IS correct, but they did not separate God from state.
Of course they did. If they hadn't, you might be forced to adhere to the catholic version of 'religion' and bowing down to 'il papa'...OR to allah - ad infinitum.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 03:11:11 PM
They acknowledged God (endowed by our Creator) as the source of our rights.
We - humans - are the source of our rights. It's the framework we created in order to create a civil society out of barbarism - "nature red in tooth and claw".
I know that offends your tender lil' sensibilities, but gawd - or any other fictitious supernatural imagining - had nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Y on April 07, 2015, 04:19:13 PM
gawd - or any other fictitious supernatural imagining - had nothing to do with it.
Prove it. It is nothing more than YOUR opinion.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 04:46:48 PM
Prove it. It is nothing more than YOUR opinion.
Certainly!
1. Gawd is easily disproved as there exists no quantifiable evidence for the existence of any supernatural being.
2. Without the existence of any supernatural being, the concept of human rights comes from man and not your gawd.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 07, 2015, 03:11:11 PM
Yes, because (MY OPINION, based upon people I know, and what I read) are NOT wanting our OWN version of Sharia Law. Just to follow our Constitutional Rights....Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, that IS correct, but they did not separate God from state. They acknowledged God (endowed by our Creator) as the source of our rights.
Thomas Jefferson, himself said the following:
"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ...."
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?"
I don't know HOW you can think likewise....
The question then is which religion? We've been down this road many times before, so it is with little hope that I remind you of the following facts:
Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons).[18] Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.[18]
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians such as Thomas Jefferson,[19][20][21] who constructed the Jefferson Bible, and Benjamin Franklin.[22] Others, notably Thomas Paine, who challenged institutionalized religion in The Age of Reason,[23] were deists, or held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[24]
Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States)
The most damning evidence of a non-Christian past is the humiliating 1797 treaty with the Barbary Pirates. President Adams sought to stem unremitting Muslim raids against Mediterranean shipping and protect American sailors from African slavery. This obscure treaty submitted,
"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp) (See Article 11)
Washington was a Deist that is the author of one of the great classics of religious liberty – the letter to Touro Synagogue (1790). In this letter, Washington assured America's Jews that they would enjoy complete religious liberty in America; not mere toleration in an officially "Christian" nation. He outlines a vision of a multi-faith society where all are free.
http://www.tourosynagogue.org/history-learning/gw-letter (http://www.tourosynagogue.org/history-learning/gw-letter)
"The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation," wrote Washington. "All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens."
Thomas Jefferson- It's almost impossible to define Jefferson's subtle religious views in a few words. As he once put it, "I am a sect by myself, as far as I know." But one thing is clear: His skepticism of traditional Christianity is well established. Our third president did not believe in the Trinity, the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, the resurrection, original sin and other core Christian doctrines. He was hostile to many conservative Christian clerics, whom he believed had perverted the teachings of that faith.
http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf (http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf)
Jefferson once famously observed to Adams, "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Although not an orthodox Christian, Jefferson admired Jesus as a moral teacher. In one of his most unusual acts, Jefferson edited the New Testament, cutting away the stories of miracles and divinity and leaving behind a very human Jesus, whose teachings Jefferson found "sublime."
His assertion that the First Amendment erects a "wall of separation between church and state" still rankles the Religious Right today.
James Madison – Deist and perhaps the strictest church-state separationist among the founders, taking stands that make the ACLU look like a bunch of pikers. He opposed government-paid chaplains in Congress and in the military. As president, Madison rejected a proposed census because it involved counting people by profession. For the government to count the clergy, Madison said, would violate the First Amendment.
Thomas Paine – Deist whose later work, The Age of Reason, still infuriates fundamentalists. In the tome, Paine attacked institutionalized religion and all of the major tenets of Christianity. He rejected prophecies and miracles and called on readers to embrace reason. The Bible, Paine asserted, can in no way be infallible. He called the god of the Old Testament "wicked" and the entire Bible "the pretended word of God."
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/singlehtml.htm (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/singlehtml.htm)
The list is a long and storied one, and included Quakers, and a virtual cross section of religions of the day. These men recognized that they each had very differing positions when it came to matters of faith, and realized the danger inherent to the incorporation of religious views into the governance of a nation; and with good reason. (Their whole reason for being here was due to the persecution and oppression imposed upon the citizens by their former homelands.)
Among the founding fathers there was a wide cross section that agreed upon (mostly) the fact there was a "creator" or "superior being", and acknowledgement of his/her/it's existence was as far as it went; for none of them would ever agree upon who/what this creator was or what it truly meant to humankind and a nation. Moreover, they agreed that a clear separation of church and state was of paramount importance to the longevity of this newly formed nation, and that matters of faith were of a private nature and should remain so; for recognition of one faith or religion requires an equal recognition of all, in kind. That is also clear.
Right, wrong, or indifferent, those are the facts, so anyone claiming this nation was "founded as a Christian Nation" failed to pay attention in history class in school.
As an aside, I find no small measure of comfort in finding some of my own PERSONAL views upon organized religion, within the documented perspectives of a number of the founding fathers. It is kind of reassuring to me that my views on the subject are not unique or new for that matter. In fact, some very important people in history held some of these same views over a couple of hundred years ago. . . :smile:
Quote from: Palehorse on April 07, 2015, 07:12:13 PM
Right, wrong, or indifferent, those are the facts, so anyone claiming this nation was "founded as a Christian Nation" failed to pay attention in history class in school.
As an aside, I find no small measure of comfort in finding some of my own PERSONAL views upon organized religion, within the documented perspectives of a number of the founding fathers. It is kind of reassuring to me that my views on the subject are not unique or new for that matter. In fact, some very important people in history held some of these same views over a couple of hundred years ago. . . :smile:
PH, we can trade quotes all day long and both of us can show strong points.
This may be my last time of explaining myself on MY OPINION, but .... It is impossible to convince me that the people who signed our documents and the people of that time, were NOT lets just say Godly people, who placed an enormous amount of value on the Holy Bible. That upbringing by Biblical truths is what developed their personalities and THAT is the nature of their character, to be principled by the teachings of Gods Word, their Faith that was developed.
I'm not saying I believe that we MUST be a Christian Nation. Never have. If I left you with that impression, then I screwed up. Now, I personally believe we would be better off if we would ALL follow the teachings of Jesus Christ........but, that is never going to happen.
MY WHOLE ARGUMENT has always been, that this country was designed by mostly Christian, if NOT ALL believers of the Holy Bible (to some extent, I know there are a few who tote the line).
Just go back and read the preamble of each states Constitution. Each one starts off with a significant giving of thanks to our Lord...in some fashion. WHY? because they (our forefathers, placed an amazing value in religion).
This is not even arguable. IT IS JUST THE PLAIN AND SIMPLE FACTS.
With all of this said, Palehorse, of ALL the people on this forum, I find myself respecting YOUR opinion on religion the most. The fact that YOU was raised in a religious setting and that you have studied in GREAT detail Christian religion. I even understand why you think the way you do....and to an extent, I even side with you. I too, believe that all of the denominations of Christianity has led to a corruption of religion. I know for a FACT that MAN is greedy and can/will do anything they can to gather more greed and power.
For me, and this is only me, have a strong Faith in the teachings of the Bible. I have had personal events that has happened to me and members of my family and close friends, that has helped build this faith. I have not attended Church on a regular basis for nearly nine years now.
I attend an occasional Bible Study with some friends to discuss parts of the Bible. I enjoy that time very much.
I refuse to discuss with anyone on here, when they cannot respect me for my beliefs. Using Gawd and Jeesbus and the such, I find offensive. The God Sucks thread used to bother me, but it is a forum, and that is just the way it is. I have NO PROBLEM with others not believing. I would like to think they wouldn't have to lower themselves to third grade level to discuss issues on religion, but apparently they do.
Anyway....I'm at the place where it really doesn't matter what the people on this forum think or not think. They have NO impact on my life as I KNOW I don't have any on theirs.
So it seems more and more "silly" to even stay here, but I have been saying that since 2006.. :razz: and I am still here. Can't figure it out either... :no:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
It is impossible to convince me...
...of anything really. You are incapable of learning.
QuoteI would like to think they wouldn't have to lower themselves to third grade level...
You set the bar with your command of the language (or lack thereof).
QuoteSo it seems more and more "silly" to even stay here, but I have been saying that since 2006.. :razz: and I am still here. Can't figure it out either... :
Look at the bright side...some day you can claim that you were never on this forum like you did with Hey Martha. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Exterminator on April 08, 2015, 08:54:29 AM
Look at the bright side...some day you can claim that you were never on this forum like you did with Hey Martha. :rolleyes:
What are you talking about? I never said I wasn't on Hey Martha...:rolleyes:
Quote from: Exterminator on April 08, 2015, 08:54:29 AM
...of anything really. You are incapable of learning.
Really?
Quote from: Exterminator on April 08, 2015, 08:54:29 AM
You set the bar with your command of the language (or lack thereof).
Nope.....it has been YOU and Y, who has set the level of interacting with one another. Cheap shots and name-calling. You own it.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
I refuse to discuss with anyone on here, when they cannot respect me for my beliefs. Using Gawd and Jeesbus and the such, I find offensive. The God Sucks thread used to bother me, but it is a forum, and that is just the way it is. I have NO PROBLEM with others not believing. I would like to think they wouldn't have to lower themselves to third grade level to discuss issues on religion, but apparently they do.
Anyway....I'm at the place where it really doesn't matter what the people on this forum think or not think. They have NO impact on my life as I KNOW I don't have any on theirs.
So it seems more and more "silly" to even stay here, but I have been saying that since 2006.. :razz: and I am still here. Can't figure it out either... :no:
Please be assured that I in no way am questioning your faith. When I started this thread I was simply pointing out the need to keep religion out of government as the founders intended.
And, just like our country, this forum is richer for the diversity you bring. It would be boring indeed if we all agreed with one another. :biggrin:
Quote from: Bo D on April 08, 2015, 09:16:05 AM
Please be assured that I in no way am questioning your faith. When I started this thread I was simply pointing out the need to keep religion out of government as the founders intended.
And, just like our country, this forum is richer for the diversity you bring. It would be boring indeed if we all agreed with one another. :biggrin:
Thanks Bo.
Quote from: Bo D on April 08, 2015, 09:16:05 AM
Please be assured that I in no way am questioning your faith.
I am; actions speak louder than words.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 08, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
I am; actions speak louder than words.
and THAT is why we have a problem in our Country today.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 10:28:02 AM
and THAT is why we have a problem in our Country today.
Indeed it is.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 08, 2015, 10:38:19 AM
Indeed it is.
Well we agree on something...and now, you finally admit you are against our 1st Amendment.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 11:57:54 AM
Well we agree on something...
Yeah, not so much.
Quote...and now, you finally admit you are against our 1st Amendment.
Try not to pull your shoulder out of joint reaching for that conclusion.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 11:57:54 AM
Well we agree on something...and now, you finally admit you are against our 1st Amendment.
You know, Hank, that dig might actually mean something IF you even had a glimmer of understanding of the Constitution or the First Amendment. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Exterminator on April 08, 2015, 09:55:26 AM
I am; actions speak louder than words.
I am too, and I -and I'm not the only one - have pointed out numerous instances where Hank's positions and support for positions cannot be reconciled with xtianity.
As well as what he picks and chooses from the bible to believe and support his beliefs doesn't jibe with Jesus.
Once again, what good is religion, and how is it moral, if it's only mouth and not actions?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 09:10:03 AM
Nope.....it has been YOU and Y, who has set the level of interacting with one another. Cheap shots and name-calling. You own it.
Pffft! Hank, you're still a crybaby just like you've always been as long as I've known you.
You can't defend your positions, and when they're shredded to bits and you're soundly trounced, you always resort back to whining.
Why don't you just grow up - and bother to learn something. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 09:07:44 AM
Really?
I'd tend to agree. Please point out some things you have supposedly learned since we've known you?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
. . .
Just go back and read the preamble of each states Constitution. Each one starts off with a significant giving of thanks to our Lord...in some fashion. WHY? because they (our forefathers, placed an amazing value in religion).
...
Putting aside the fact that state constitutions are another matter entirely for a moment. . .
Let's start with my home state:
We, the People of the State of Illinois - grateful to
Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty
which He has permitted us to enjoy and seeking His blessing
upon our endeavors - in order to provide for the health,
safety and welfare of the people; maintain a representative
and orderly government; eliminate poverty and inequality;
assure legal, social and economic justice; provide
opportunity for the fullest development of the individual;
insure domestic tranquility; provide for the common defense;
and secure the blessings of freedom and liberty to ourselves
and our posterity - do ordain and establish this Constitution
for the State of Illinois.
(Source: Illinois Constitution.)
http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/conent.htm (http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/conent.htm)
So on the surface I can see how you might be so quick to make such a wide-reaching summation. But. . .
Constitution of the State of Illinois
Adopted at special election on December 15, 1970Nearly 200 years AFTER the US Constitution was adopted and passed. I doubt any of the founding fathers were still sucking air at that time. . . Illinois became a state in 1815, so let's look at the original constitution from 1818 and see what that says:
Constitution of 1818.
Adopted at Kaskaskia in convention, August 26, 1818.
T
HE people of the Illinois territory, having the right of admission into the general government as a member of the Union, consistent with the constitution of the United States, the ordinance of congress of 1787, and the law of congress approved April 18th , 1818, entitled "An act to enable the people of the Illinois territory to form a constitution and state government, and for the admission of such state into the Union, on an equal footing with the original states, and for other purposes;" in order to es tablish justice, promote the welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and their posterity, do by their representatives in convention, ordain and establish the following constitution or form of government; and do mutually agree with each other to form themselves into a free and independent state, by the name of the State of Illinois. And they do hereby ratify the boundaries assigned to such state by the act of congress aforesaid, which are as follows, to wit: Beginning at the mouth of th e Wabash river, thence up the same, and with the line of Indiana to the northwest corner of said state; then east with the line of the same state, to the middle of Lake Michigan; thence north, along the middle of said lake, to north latitude 42 degrees a nd 30 minutes; thence west to the middle of the Mississippi river, and thence down, along the middle of that river, to its confluence with the Ohio river; and thence up the latter river, along its northwestern shore, to the beginning.http://tippecanoe.tripod.com/c1818.html (http://tippecanoe.tripod.com/c1818.html) <-- Yeah I know. But I confirmed it before I posted it by reading the original in digitized format here:https://archive.org/stream/constitutionofst00inilli#page/n1/mode/2up (https://archive.org/stream/constitutionofst00inilli#page/n1/mode/2up)
Next let's look at the preamble to your home state - Indiana
We the Representatives of the people of the Territory of Indiana, in Convention met, at Corydon, on monday the tenth day of June in the year of our Lord eighteen hundred and sixteen, and of the Independence of the United States, the fortieth, having the right of admission into the General Government, as a member of the union, consistent with the constitution of the United States, the ordinance of Congress of one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven, and the law of Congress, entitle "An act to enable the people of the Indiana Territory to form a Constitution and State Government, and for the admission of such state into the union, on an equal footing with the original States" in order to establish Justice, promote the welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity; do ordain and establish the following constitution or form of Government, and do mutually agree with each other to form ourselves into a free and Independent state, by the name of the State of Indiana.http://www.in.gov/history/2883.htm (http://www.in.gov/history/2883.htm)
Written in 1816, outside of the commonplace term "Year of our Lord" I don't see any reference what-so-ever to a "god" or "superior being". . . As with the original version of that for Illinois.
My point being, if your read the original constitutions for the states, you likely will not find the language you claim within them to be as supportive of the position you hold as you think. . .
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
we can trade quotes all day long and both of us can show strong points.
No, you can't, because it's patently obvious what you think isn't fact.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
.... It is impossible to convince me that the people who signed our documents and the people of that time, were NOT lets just say Godly people, who placed an enormous amount of value on the Holy Bible. That upbringing by Biblical truths is what developed their personalities and THAT is the nature of their character, to be principled by the teachings of Gods Word, their Faith that was developed.
Of course it's impossible to convince you of anything because evidence, facts, and logic mean absolutely nothing to you. You are an ideologue. Ideologues are unwilling and/or unable to see that they are what they are and the fallacies of their ideology.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
Now, I personally believe we would be better off if we would ALL follow the teachings of Jesus Christ........but, that is never going to happen.
Hell, Hank, you don't even appear to accept those teachings.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
MY WHOLE ARGUMENT has always been, that this country was designed by mostly Christian, if NOT ALL believers of the Holy Bible (to some extent, I know there are a few who tote the line).
And you don't see that was primarily coincidental. Whatever may have been their individual religious beliefs, or none at all, they created a nation designed to be free of the corrupting influences of religion. That they did so is patently obvious to anyone but you RW/TP/Evangelical ideologues.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
Just go back and read the preamble of each states Constitution. Each one starts off with a significant giving of thanks to our Lord...in some fashion. WHY? because they (our forefathers, placed an amazing value in religion).
So what? That doesn't mean what you think it means. Many of the original colonies which became states were founded as religious enclaves for religious dissidents. Another thing is that such was the prevailing style of the time carrying over from our colonial past.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
The fact that YOU was raised in a religious setting and that you have studied in GREAT detail Christian religion.
What in the world makes you think he's the only one around here? I've told you many times I spent my entire youth in church and religion, and that religious and philosophical studies have been a passion of mine. I posit you ignore it because you can't accept that someone knows far more about your religion than you do and rejects it on solid grounds.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 08, 2015, 08:03:50 AM
I refuse to discuss with anyone on here, when they cannot respect me for my beliefs. Using Gawd and Jeesbus and the such, I find offensive. The God Sucks thread used to bother me, but it is a forum, and that is just the way it is. I have NO PROBLEM with others not believing. I would like to think they wouldn't have to lower themselves to third grade level to discuss issues on religion, but apparently they do.
First you complain and then you say you have "no problem"! You're a hypocrite as people have told you for years. Just face up to it and own it.
You get exactly as much respect for your beliefs as one would get for believing the earth is flat or the moon is made of green cheese. They're inane beliefs that fly in the face of facts evidence and logic - just like your religious beliefs. If you left them as your PERSONAL beliefs, no one would care because people have a right to be stupid and whatever gets you through the dark night is up to you, BUT as you advocate and support codifying your authoritarian moral insanity into OUR legal system, you're going to get treated as the nutcase and danger to OUR society that you are.
Sorry your widdle feelings get hurt over that. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Palehorse on April 08, 2015, 06:01:02 PM
My point being, if your read the original constitutions for the states, you likely will not find the language you claim within them to be as supportive of the position you hold as you think. . .
Palehorse, the language could NOT be any clearer.... I just picked a few, the ones where our forefathers were STILL breathing. Even Virginia, the home of Thomas Jefferson, even mentions Christianity in its preamble.
Again, MY POINT IS....God WAS extremely important to the people of that time....they even felt the need to Govern by Him. This of all the things we have discussed on this forum..is one area, I KNOW FOR A FACT I am correct on.
But, it really don't mean a hill of beans does it.
Anyway, here is MORE PROOF to support my position. :yes:
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...
Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates of their consciences .
Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
other
West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .
btw, Y....Not interested. :no:
Quote from: Y on April 08, 2015, 06:27:13 PM
...BUT as you advocate and support codifying your authoritarian moral insanity into OUR legal system, you're going to get treated as the nutcase and danger to OUR society that you are.
And right there it is. :yes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 09, 2015, 08:39:59 AM
btw, Y....Not interested. :no:
Translation: I've got nothin'.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 09, 2015, 09:19:54 AM
Translation: I've got nothin'.
Truer words were never spoken - and he knows it.
Quote from: Exterminator on April 09, 2015, 09:19:03 AM
And right there it is. :yes:
Yup! Those RW/TP/Authoritarian/Evangelical ideologues don't understand they push people to take such a hard line against them because of their refusal, non-acceptance, and denial of science, history, facts, evidence, logic, context etc..
They'll lie and do anything to push their agenda into the legal system. That's why they're so dangerous.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 09, 2015, 07:50:25 AM
Palehorse, the language could NOT be any clearer.... I just picked a few, the ones where our forefathers were STILL breathing. Even Virginia, the home of Thomas Jefferson, even mentions Christianity in its preamble.
Only ONE specifically mentions xtianity by name, and then it only to point out what is SUPPOSED to be a xtian principle - also inferred to mean respecting of other beliefs. The others DELIBERATELY leave it vague as to any specific religion or gawd - as does the D of I.
You obviously DON'T know why. I told you yesterday, but you ignored it because the history and context doesn't suit your ideological agenda.
Many of the original colonies were created as different religious enclaves for religious dissidents from Europe. Do you know why there were those different enclaves? Because those religious dissidents didn't have the same beliefs, and didn't like each other having brought their religious feuds and prejudices over from Europe - even going so far as to persecute each other just as they did in Europe.
The genius of our founders is that they created a SECULAR national government which also led to SECULAR state governments. They didn't ignore history OR context, thank gawd!
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 09, 2015, 07:50:25 AM
Again, MY POINT IS....God WAS extremely important to the people of that time....they even felt the need to Govern by Him. This of all the things we have discussed on this forum..is one area, I KNOW FOR A FACT I am correct on.
See, as I pointed out, you ideologues only see and claim what you can use to push your agenda. You deny much of history and ignore context because it suits you.
I pointed that out in discussing this issue: "Many of the original colonies which became states were founded as religious enclaves for religious dissidents. Another thing is that such was the prevailing style of the time carrying over from our colonial past."
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 09, 2015, 07:50:25 AM
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...
Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates of their consciences .
Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
other
West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .
Not a ONE of those State Constitutions makes the claim of establishing a xtian government - and not ONE State does...just like our Federal government.
And that's all the time I'm going to waste in this post on your ridiculous stupidity.
Quote from: Y on April 09, 2015, 04:52:23 PM
And that's all the time I'm going to waste in this post on your ridiculous stupidity.
Good!
See, even in your trolling - you do know you've resorted back to your old HM persona - you ignored what I actually said. I said "in this post". I'm not done with your stupidity by a long shot. :wink:
Y, with all due respect, I really don't care what you have to say. I have followed your tripe for years now. I piss you off, because I don't run away from you. You like to bully your points to people. You name call, insult and belittle those who don't agree with you.
You are just plain and simple, flat out wrong on most if not everything you post.
I have already crossed my border that I have recently set regarding you. I am not whining, I am not pouting....I'm just done. I have no interest in arguing with you. It does no good.
I post what I want, when I want, if I am in the mood, I will acknowledge palehorse, locutus, Bo because the can be civil. You and ex choose not to be civil. That is okay with me, this is a forum and I choose to come on here. I still can't quite put my finger on why I keep coming back, because it really IS pointless. Everybody on here is very set in our ways.
That's it, I will no longer reply to your posts so you do what you want.😁
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 09, 2015, 07:50:25 AM
Palehorse, the language could NOT be any clearer.... I just picked a few, the ones where our forefathers were STILL breathing. Even Virginia, the home of Thomas Jefferson, even mentions Christianity in its preamble.
Again, MY POINT IS....God WAS extremely important to the people of that time....they even felt the need to Govern by Him. This of all the things we have discussed on this forum..is one area, I KNOW FOR A FACT I am correct on.
But, it really don't mean a hill of beans does it.
Anyway, here is MORE PROOF to support my position. :yes:
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...
Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates of their consciences .
Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
other
West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .
Perhaps you just created a short list of potential relocation destinations? (No links. . . humm. . .) :razz:
Have you ever read the articles of confederation for the United States?
I notice Delaware also included the term "by nature", and the use of "Divine" provenance, goodness, etc. means? Exactly? And please, support your position with just how the use of those terms is indicative of "Christianity" specifically. (Keep in mind the diversity of religious belief, and/or lack thereof, amongst those that authored the USC).
I find it interesting that you so easily abandon or discount the words and acts of some of the very men whom you have quoted as a means to support your position; especially given the lofty position(s) your previous use of their words placed them within despite their minority number.
As for the balance of your examples I will ask again; What God? (The answer is really simple - All or none. Both are correct, which is exactly why the US Constitution, which by federal constitutional law State Constitutions cannot override or oppose, was written to specifically exclude allegiance toward any one religion and forbad endorsement thereof.)
Finally, I will say again; this nation is not a nation based upon a Christian religion or world-view. Never has been and never will be. However, if the hardline conservative Christian sector within this population continue to press things, I predict this nation will one day be ruled based upon a Muslim or religion other than Christianity. . .
United we stand, divided we fall. And the division within this nation is growing exponentially as sectors find it far easier to follow the path of least resistance, (war), than to put in the work necessary to nurture the tolerance, acceptance, and goodwill required to keep this nation strong.
I will end my contributions to this subject with the words of Emma Lazarus, which reside at the foot of the Statue of Liberty; whose words once meant something to the occupants of this nation, but today represent how far we have yet to go in order to realize the goals and ideals our forefathers laid down before the world so long ago:
The New ColossusNot like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
A door that in modern times, is constructed of armor plated steel and surrounded by razor wire and packs of ravenous jackals that thirst for blood and power.
Quote from: Palehorse on April 09, 2015, 08:11:32 PM
Have you ever read the articles of confederation for the United States?
Yes, and I find it very interesting that they ended it, in Article XIII....
And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union.
It is quite clear, that these men, are indeed VERY religious. The Great Governor, Creator, Providence in God, Divine Goodness, Almighty God...all were used on a regular basis by them when constructing documents.
I can go on....
Those very men, who wrote the Articles of Confederation all were the very ones who designed their own State 'Bill of Rights'...
Virginia, first state to ratify the Articles of Confederation had in their Bill of Rights, the following....
"That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."This speaks VOLUME of its religious stance, even calls our Christian practice.
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South Carolina, the second state to ratify the Articles of Confederation....
"We, the people of the State of South Carolina ... grateful to God for our liberties...........and it goes on to say......
No person shall be eligible to sit in the House of Representatives unless he be of the Protestant religionTHEY even call out specifically, a Christian Denomination
They go on to say...
All persons and religious societies who acknowledge that there is one God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, and that God is publicly to be worshiped, shall be freely tolerated. The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed ... the established religion of this State. That all denominations of Christian Protestants in this State ... shall enjoy equal religious and civil privileges. ... That every society of Christians ... shall have agreed to ... the following five articles.Clearly, very religious AND Christian
Stay with me...and lets move on...
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New York, the third state to ratify the Articles of Confederation...... adopted 1777, stated:
"Whereas the Delegates of the United American States ... solemnly ... declare, in the words following..... Laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them. ... All men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights ... Appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions ... with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence. ...'"This convention doth further ... declare, that the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever hereafter be allowed, within this State, to all mankind: Provided, That the liberty of conscience, hereby granted, shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness."-Rhode Island, the fourth state to ratify the Articles of Confederation.....
Stated the following...
"That they, pursuing ... religious intentions, of Godly edifying themselves, and one another, in the Holy Christian faith and worship.Okay, it is obvious that I can go on and on and on.....
But I want to say something first. I have stated this several times now, but perhaps I have not made myself clear....It is MY intent, to say that our Forefathers founded this nation on Christian Principals....but it doesn't mean it is was designed to be a Christian Nation. Even though, I think our forefathers never foresaw a day when it wouldn't be.
THAT is they way they think and believed. I realize the danger of having a FEDERAL mandate on such a thing. THAT would be wrong, I believe THEY (our forefathers knew it would be...and that is why they left it out......but to say that they were not Godly, Religious or in most cases Christian, well you ARE wrong...because evidence clearly shows they were.
Let's go back to the words of Thomas Jefferson.
Quote from: Bo D on April 03, 2015, 04:44:07 PM
"Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God."
He called the writers of the New Testament "ignorant, unlettered men" who produced "superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications."
He called the Apostle Paul the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as "mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." He believed that the clergy used religion as a "mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves" and that "in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty."
And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that "the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Quote from: Bo D on April 10, 2015, 10:19:05 AM
Let's go back to the words of Thomas Jefferson.
Okay...
Thomas Jefferson drafted a Day of Fasting & Prayer resolution, to be observed. It was introduced in the Virginia House of Burgesses by Robert Carter Nicholas, May 24, 1774.
Supported by Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee and George Mason, it passed unanimously:
"This House, being deeply impressed with apprehension ... from the hostile invasion of the city of Boston in our Sister Colony of Massachusetts Bay, whose commerce and harbor are, on the first day of June next, to be stopped by an armed force, deem it highly necessary that the said first day of June be set apart, by the members of this House, as a Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, devoutly to implore the Divine interposition, for averting the heavy calamity which threatens destruction to our civil rights. ... Ordered, therefore that the Members of this House do attend ... with the Speaker, and the mace, to the Church in this City, for the purposes aforesaid; and that the Reverend Mr. Price be appointed to read prayers, and the Reverend Mr. Gwatkin, to preach a sermon."Why is it, he felt this important, if HE himself didn't have some sort of "Belief" in religion? I KNOW, he differed himself among the many other forefathers, with his stance on religion, but, he WAS INDEED, somewhat religious. I have never ONCE claimed he was a Christian. But he HAD FAITH, and felt it was important.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 09, 2015, 07:29:57 PM
I have no interest in arguing with you. It does no good.
Because you get soundly trounced every time you try.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 10, 2015, 09:51:23 AM
...that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."[/i]
This speaks VOLUME of its religious stance, even calls our Christian practice.
In what world do you think you come anywhere close to practicing forbearance, love and charity? What a freaking hypocrite. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 10, 2015, 11:05:44 AM
Okay...
Thomas Jefferson drafted a Day of Fasting & Prayer resolution, to be observed. It was introduced in the Virginia House of Burgesses by Robert Carter Nicholas, May 24, 1774.
Supported by Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee and George Mason, it passed unanimously:
"This House, being deeply impressed with apprehension ... from the hostile invasion of the city of Boston in our Sister Colony of Massachusetts Bay, whose commerce and harbor are, on the first day of June next, to be stopped by an armed force, deem it highly necessary that the said first day of June be set apart, by the members of this House, as a Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, devoutly to implore the Divine interposition, for averting the heavy calamity which threatens destruction to our civil rights. ... Ordered, therefore that the Members of this House do attend ... with the Speaker, and the mace, to the Church in this City, for the purposes aforesaid; and that the Reverend Mr. Price be appointed to read prayers, and the Reverend Mr. Gwatkin, to preach a sermon."
Why is it, he felt this important, if HE himself didn't have some sort of "Belief" in religion? I KNOW, he differed himself among the many other forefathers, with his stance on religion, but, he WAS INDEED, somewhat religious. I have never ONCE claimed he was a Christian. But he HAD FAITH, and felt it was important.
And later, Jefferson wrote about that occasion ...
"We were under the conviction of the necessity of arousing our people from the lethargy into which they had fallen as to passing events and thought that the appointment of a day of general fasting and prayer would be most likely to call up and alarm their attention." Jefferson's role in the adoption and promotion of the Day and Fasting and Prayer resolution illustrate his growing understanding of the importance of engaging the emotions of one's followers.
For Jefferson the decision to base a revolutionary appeal on religious grounds was expedient, reflecting more an understanding of politics than a belief that the Lord God of Hosts was about to intervene in British America. To frame an anti-British argument in the language of faith took the rhetorical fight to the enemy in a way that was difficult to combat. Jefferson and his colleagues could argue that they were only humbling themselves to the Lord, calling on a largely religious populace to fast and pray, not to resist authority.
The wording itself came after Jefferson and his comrades "rummaged" through Rushworth's collection of "revolutionary precedents and forms of the Puritans of that day."
https://books.google.com/books?id=f3HNBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT85&lpg=PT85&dq=thomas+jefferson+Day+of+Fasting+%26+Prayer+resolution&source=bl&ots=wmlzca-tvY&sig=cPJ13FUlL-4fd5w31a_W90ypJK8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=quonVZOAAeLLsASmhICQBg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=thomas%20jefferson%20Day%20of%20Fasting%20%26%20Prayer%20resolution&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=f3HNBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT85&lpg=PT85&dq=thomas+jefferson+Day+of+Fasting+%26+Prayer+resolution&source=bl&ots=wmlzca-tvY&sig=cPJ13FUlL-4fd5w31a_W90ypJK8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=quonVZOAAeLLsASmhICQBg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=thomas%20jefferson%20Day%20of%20Fasting%20%26%20Prayer%20resolution&f=false)
In other words, Jefferson was merely using religion as a tool to arouse the commoners.
Quote from: Bo D on April 10, 2015, 11:52:36 AM
In other words, Jefferson was merely using religion as a tool to arouse the commoners.
According to Jon Meacham, who authored that book.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 10, 2015, 12:14:12 PM
According to Jon Meacham, who authored that book.
No. According to me who read it.
Quote from: Bo D on April 10, 2015, 11:52:36 AM
In other words, Jefferson was merely using religion as a tool to arouse the commoners.
Because that's all religion is.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 10, 2015, 12:14:12 PM
According to Jon Meacham, who authored that book.
And there it is!
I don't know how many times I and others have pointed out to you that facts, evidence, and logic mean absolutely nothing to you.
You're an ideologue, and ideologues are impenetrable to anything but their ideology, and most are incapable of realizing they're ideologues.
It's why so many thinking folks perceive you to be a useless troll and a danger to society.
Here's an example of some of that "Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other." :rolleyes:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/11/us/arizona-parking-lot-brawl-video/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/11/us/arizona-parking-lot-brawl-video/index.html)
Click the link to see the story I am referencing here, and to watch the video. . .
Those people are flat out nuts. The name of their band is Matthew 24. Almost the entire 24th chapter of Matthew is Jesus describing the final days. I think most of the members of that band think we're living in the final days, hence the name. :rolleyes:
I actually saw this article this morning and was going to put it on the God Sucks thread, but then I got sidetracked by a more pressing issue. ;D
And in other late breaking news! America, still not a 'x-tian' nation! :biggrin:
:no: ;D
And the primary guy behind the Museum of the Bible - which is being erected a scant three blocks from the Capitol - claims locating the religious organization so close to the seats of political power didn't even cross his mind.
Yeah, right! :rolleyes:
Okay I had to Google that one. So here we have the Hobby Lobby people setting up a Bible Museum in DC. I hadn't even heard of The Bible Museum until you mentioned it here.
This interesting (and encouraging ):
Quote...part of a growing group of American adults who do not identify with any religion. More than one-in-five American adults say so now, the highest in U.S. history. They are being identified as the religious "nones," so called for their lack of religious affiliation. As they grow in size, they are also gaining political power.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/12/413654984/americas-religious-nones-are-growing-quickly-should-republicans-worry?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150612
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 12, 2015, 09:18:11 PM
This interesting (and encouraging ):
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/12/413654984/americas-religious-nones-are-growing-quickly-should-republicans-worry?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150612
Finally the American people have caught on that religion and god is all bull shit. They have finally seen through all of the smoke,mirrors and lies that the religious leaders put upon us. For they are all for lining their pockets gold and silver and power over our lives. God and religion SUCKS and it is for the small minded people that live amongst. Now let us pray. :pray: :preach: :pope: Oh, don't forget to put something in the pot. :stirthepot:
As far as I'm concerned, until someone can come up with any credible proof of the existence of the supernatural, there is no reason to lend any credence to any supernatural beliefs, and certainly pertains to belief in any super-human sky daddy - xtian OR muslim etc..