A Christian Nation?

[Exterminator]

Zero doubt in your mind because your faith is so weak it requires validation.   

[Y]

Yes, because (MY OPINION, based upon people I know, and what I read) are NOT wanting our OWN version of Sharia Law.

Of course you are.  Any time you attempt to implement your 'religious' beliefs, practices, or prejudices into law, you are codifying your religion JUST like so many moooo-slems do with their 'religion'.

Just to follow our Constitutional Rights....Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, that IS correct, but they did not separate God from state.

Of course they did.  If they hadn't, you might be forced to adhere to the catholic version of 'religion' and bowing down to 'il papa'...OR to allah - ad infinitum.

They acknowledged God (endowed by our Creator) as the source of our rights.

We - humans - are the source of our rights.  It's the framework we created in order to create a civil society out of barbarism - "nature red in tooth and claw".

I know that offends your tender lil' sensibilities, but gawd - or any other fictitious supernatural imagining - had nothing to do with it.

[Henry Hawk]

gawd - or any other fictitious supernatural imagining - had nothing to do with it.

Prove it.  It is nothing more than YOUR opinion.

[Y]

  Prove it.  It is nothing more than YOUR opinion.

Certainly!

1. Gawd is easily disproved as there exists no quantifiable evidence for the existence of any supernatural being.

2. Without the existence of any supernatural being, the concept of human rights comes from man and not your gawd.

[Palehorse]

Yes, because (MY OPINION, based upon people I know, and what I read) are NOT wanting our OWN version of Sharia Law.  Just to follow our Constitutional Rights....Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, that IS correct, but they did not separate God from state.  They acknowledged God (endowed by our Creator) as the source of our rights.

Thomas Jefferson,  himself said the following:

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ...."   

"God who gave us life gave us liberty.  Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?"

I don't know HOW you can think likewise....

The question then is which religion? We've been down this road many times before, so it is with little hope that I remind you of the following facts:

Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons).[18] Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.[18]

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians such as Thomas Jefferson,[19][20][21] who constructed the Jefferson Bible, and Benjamin Franklin.[22] Others, notably Thomas Paine, who challenged institutionalized religion in The Age of Reason,[23] were deists, or held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[24]
Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

The most damning evidence of a non-Christian past is the humiliating 1797 treaty with the Barbary Pirates. President Adams sought to stem unremitting Muslim raids against Mediterranean shipping and protect American sailors from African slavery. This obscure treaty submitted, "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp  (See Article 11)

Washington was a Deist that is the author of one of the great classics of religious liberty – the letter to Touro Synagogue (1790). In this letter, Washington assured America's Jews that they would enjoy complete religious liberty in America; not mere toleration in an officially "Christian" nation. He outlines a vision of a multi-faith society where all are free.

http://www.tourosynagogue.org/history-learning/gw-letter

"The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation," wrote Washington. "All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens."

Thomas Jefferson- It's almost impossible to define Jefferson's subtle religious views in a few words. As he once put it, "I am a sect by myself, as far as I know." But one thing is clear: His skepticism of traditional Christianity is well established. Our third president did not believe in the Trinity, the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, the resurrection, original sin and other core Christian doctrines. He was hostile to many conservative Christian clerics, whom he believed had perverted the teachings of that faith.

http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf

Jefferson once famously observed to Adams, "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Although not an orthodox Christian, Jefferson admired Jesus as a moral teacher. In one of his most unusual acts, Jefferson edited the New Testament, cutting away the stories of miracles and divinity and leaving behind a very human Jesus, whose teachings Jefferson found "sublime."

His assertion that the First Amendment erects a "wall of separation between church and state" still rankles the Religious Right today.

James Madison – Deist and perhaps the strictest church-state separationist among the founders, taking stands that make the ACLU look like a bunch of pikers. He opposed government-paid chaplains in Congress and in the military. As president, Madison rejected a proposed census because it involved counting people by profession. For the government to count the clergy, Madison said, would violate the First Amendment.

Thomas Paine – Deist whose later work, The Age of Reason, still infuriates fundamentalists. In the tome, Paine attacked institutionalized religion and all of the major tenets of Christianity. He rejected prophecies and miracles and called on readers to embrace reason. The Bible, Paine asserted, can in no way be infallible. He called the god of the Old Testament "wicked" and the entire Bible "the pretended word of God."

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/singlehtml.htm

The list is a long and storied one, and included Quakers, and a virtual cross section of religions of the day. These men recognized that they each had very differing positions when it came to matters of faith, and realized the danger inherent to the incorporation of religious views into the governance of a nation; and with good reason. (Their whole reason for being here was due to the persecution and oppression imposed upon the citizens by their former homelands.)

Among the founding fathers there was a wide cross section that agreed upon (mostly) the fact there was a "creator" or "superior being", and acknowledgement of his/her/it's existence was as far as it went; for none of them would ever agree upon who/what this creator was or what it truly meant to humankind and a nation. Moreover, they agreed that a clear separation of church and state was of paramount importance to the longevity of this newly formed nation, and that matters of faith were of a private nature and should remain so; for recognition of one faith or religion requires an equal recognition of all, in kind. That is also clear.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, those are the facts, so anyone claiming this nation was "founded as a Christian Nation" failed to pay attention in history class in school.

As an aside, I find no small measure of comfort in finding some of my own PERSONAL views upon organized religion, within the documented perspectives of a number of the founding fathers. It is kind of reassuring to me that my views on the subject are not unique or new for that matter. In fact, some very important people in history held some of these same views over a couple of hundred years ago. . . 

[Henry Hawk]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, those are the facts, so anyone claiming this nation was "founded as a Christian Nation" failed to pay attention in history class in school.

As an aside, I find no small measure of comfort in finding some of my own PERSONAL views upon organized religion, within the documented perspectives of a number of the founding fathers. It is kind of reassuring to me that my views on the subject are not unique or new for that matter. In fact, some very important people in history held some of these same views over a couple of hundred years ago. . . 

PH, we can trade quotes all day long and both of us can show strong points. 

This may be my last time of explaining myself on MY OPINION, but .... It is impossible to convince me that the people who signed our documents and the people of that time, were NOT lets just say Godly people, who placed an enormous amount of value on the Holy Bible.  That upbringing by Biblical truths is what developed their personalities and THAT is the nature of their character, to be principled by the teachings of Gods Word, their Faith that was developed. 

I'm not saying I believe that we MUST be a Christian Nation.  Never have.  If I left you with that impression, then I screwed up.  Now, I personally believe we would be better off if we would ALL follow the teachings of Jesus Christ........but, that is never going to happen. 

MY WHOLE ARGUMENT has always been, that this country was designed by mostly Christian, if NOT ALL believers of the Holy Bible (to some extent, I know there are a few who tote the line).

Just go back and read the preamble of each states Constitution.  Each one starts off with a significant giving of thanks to our Lord...in some fashion.  WHY? because they (our forefathers, placed an amazing value in religion).

This is not even arguable. IT IS JUST THE PLAIN AND SIMPLE FACTS.

With all of this said, Palehorse, of ALL the people on this forum, I find myself respecting YOUR opinion on religion the most.  The fact that YOU was raised in a religious setting and that you have studied in GREAT detail Christian religion.  I even understand why you think the way you do....and to an extent, I even side with you.  I too, believe that all of the denominations of Christianity has led to a corruption of religion.  I know for a FACT that MAN is greedy and can/will do anything they can to gather more greed and power. 

For me, and this is only me, have a strong Faith in the teachings of the Bible. I have had personal events that has happened to me and members of my family and close friends, that has helped build this faith.  I have not attended Church on a regular basis for nearly nine years now.

I attend an occasional Bible Study with some friends to discuss parts of the Bible.  I enjoy that time very much.

I refuse to discuss with anyone on here, when they cannot respect me for my beliefs.  Using Gawd and Jeesbus and the such, I find offensive.  The God Sucks thread used to bother me, but it is a forum, and that is just the way it is.  I have NO PROBLEM with others not believing.  I would like to think they wouldn't have to lower themselves to third grade level to discuss issues on religion, but apparently they do.

Anyway....I'm at the place where it really doesn't matter what the people on this forum think or not think.  They have NO impact on my life as I KNOW I don't have any on theirs.

So it seems more and more "silly" to even stay here, but I have been saying that since 2006.. and I am still here.  Can't figure it out either...

[Exterminator]

It is impossible to convince me...

...of anything really.  You are incapable of learning.

I would like to think they wouldn't have to lower themselves to third grade level...

You set the bar with your command of the language (or lack thereof).

So it seems more and more "silly" to even stay here, but I have been saying that since 2006.. and I am still here.  Can't figure it out either... :

Look at the bright side...some day you can claim that you were never on this forum like you did with Hey Martha. 

[Henry Hawk]

Look at the bright side...some day you can claim that you were never on this forum like you did with Hey Martha. 

What are you talking about?  I never said I wasn't on Hey Martha...

[Henry Hawk]

...of anything really.  You are incapable of learning.

Really? 

[Henry Hawk]

You set the bar with your command of the language (or lack thereof).

Nope.....it has been YOU and Y, who has set the level of interacting with one another.  Cheap shots and name-calling.  You own it.

[Bo D]

I refuse to discuss with anyone on here, when they cannot respect me for my beliefs.  Using Gawd and Jeesbus and the such, I find offensive.  The God Sucks thread used to bother me, but it is a forum, and that is just the way it is.  I have NO PROBLEM with others not believing.  I would like to think they wouldn't have to lower themselves to third grade level to discuss issues on religion, but apparently they do.

Anyway....I'm at the place where it really doesn't matter what the people on this forum think or not think.  They have NO impact on my life as I KNOW I don't have any on theirs.

So it seems more and more "silly" to even stay here, but I have been saying that since 2006.. and I am still here.  Can't figure it out either...

Please be assured that I in no way am questioning your faith. When I started this thread I was simply pointing out the need to keep religion out of government as the founders intended.

And, just like our country, this forum is richer for the diversity you bring. It would be boring indeed if we all agreed with one another. 

[Henry Hawk]

Please be assured that I in no way am questioning your faith. When I started this thread I was simply pointing out the need to keep religion out of government as the founders intended.

And, just like our country, this forum is richer for the diversity you bring. It would be boring indeed if we all agreed with one another. 

Thanks Bo. 

[Exterminator]

Please be assured that I in no way am questioning your faith.

I am; actions speak louder than words.

[Henry Hawk]

I am; actions speak louder than words.

and THAT is why we have a problem in our Country today.

[Exterminator]

and THAT is why we have a problem in our Country today.

Indeed it is.