A Christian Nation?

[Henry Hawk]

And that's all the time I'm going to waste in this post on your ridiculous stupidity.

Good!

[Y]

See, even in your trolling - you do know you've resorted back to your old HM persona - you ignored what I actually said.  I said "in this post".  I'm not done with your stupidity by a long shot.   

[Henry Hawk]

Y, with all due respect, I really don't care what you have to say.  I have followed your tripe for years now.  I piss you off, because I don't run away from you.  You like to bully your points to people.  You name call, insult and belittle those who don't agree with you.

You are just plain and simple, flat out wrong on most if not everything you post.

I have already crossed my border that I have recently set regarding you.   I am not whining, I am not pouting....I'm just done.  I have no interest in arguing with you.  It does no good.

I post what I want, when I want, if I am in the mood, I will acknowledge palehorse, locutus, Bo because the can be civil.  You and ex choose not to be civil.  That is okay with me, this is a forum and I choose to come on here.  I still can't quite put my finger on why I keep coming back, because it really IS pointless.  Everybody on here is very set in our ways.

That's it, I will no longer reply to your posts so you do what you want.😁

[Palehorse]

Palehorse, the language could NOT be any clearer.... I just picked a few, the ones where our forefathers were STILL breathing.  Even Virginia, the home of Thomas Jefferson, even mentions Christianity in its preamble.

Again, MY POINT IS....God WAS extremely important to the people of that time....they even felt the need to Govern by Him.  This of all the things we have discussed on this forum..is one area, I KNOW FOR A FACT I am correct on.

But, it really don't mean a hill of beans does it.

Anyway, here is MORE PROOF to support my position.   

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates of their consciences .

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
other

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .

Perhaps you just created a short list of potential relocation destinations? (No links. . . humm. . .) 

Have you ever read the articles of confederation for the United States?

I notice Delaware also included the term "by nature", and the use of "Divine" provenance, goodness, etc. means? Exactly? And please, support your position with just how the use of those terms is indicative of "Christianity" specifically. (Keep in mind the diversity of religious belief, and/or lack thereof, amongst those that authored the USC).

I find it interesting that you so easily abandon or discount the words and acts of some of the very men whom you have quoted as a means to support your position; especially given the lofty position(s) your previous use of their words placed them within despite their minority number.

As for the balance of your examples I will ask again; What God? (The answer is really simple - All or none. Both are correct, which is exactly why the US Constitution, which by federal constitutional law State Constitutions cannot override or oppose, was written to specifically exclude allegiance toward any one religion and forbad endorsement thereof.)

Finally, I will say again; this nation is not a nation based upon a Christian religion or world-view. Never has been and never will be. However, if the hardline conservative Christian sector within this population continue to press things, I predict this nation will one day be ruled based upon a Muslim or religion other than Christianity. . .

United we stand, divided we fall. And the division within this nation is growing exponentially as sectors find it far easier to follow the path of least resistance, (war), than to put in the work necessary to nurture the tolerance, acceptance, and goodwill required to keep this nation strong.

I will end my contributions to this subject with the words of Emma Lazarus, which reside at the foot of the Statue of Liberty; whose words once meant something to the occupants of this nation, but today represent how far we have yet to go in order to realize the goals and ideals our forefathers laid down before the world so long ago:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


A door that in modern times, is constructed of armor plated steel and surrounded by razor wire and packs of ravenous jackals that thirst for blood and power.

[Henry Hawk]

Have you ever read the articles of confederation for the United States?

Yes, and I find it very interesting that they ended it, in Article XIII....And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union.

It is quite clear, that these men, are indeed VERY religious. The Great Governor, Creator, Providence in God, Divine Goodness, Almighty God...all were used on a regular basis by them when constructing documents.

I can go on....

Those very men, who wrote the Articles of Confederation all were the very ones who designed their own State 'Bill of Rights'...

Virginia, first state to ratify the Articles of Confederation had in their Bill of Rights, the following....

"That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

This speaks VOLUME of its religious stance, even calls our Christian practice.

-

South Carolina, the second state to ratify the Articles of Confederation....

"We, the people of the State of South Carolina ... grateful to God for our liberties...........and it goes on to say......No person shall be eligible to sit in the House of Representatives unless he be of the Protestant religion

THEY even call out specifically, a Christian Denomination

They go on to say...


All persons and religious societies who acknowledge that there is one God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, and that God is publicly to be worshiped, shall be freely tolerated.  The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed ... the established religion of this State.  That all denominations of Christian Protestants in this State ... shall enjoy equal religious and civil privileges. ... That every society of Christians ... shall have agreed to ... the following five articles.

Clearly, very religious AND Christian

Stay with me...and lets move on...

-

New York, the third state to ratify the Articles of Confederation...... adopted 1777, stated:

"Whereas the Delegates of the United American States ... solemnly ... declare, in the words following..... Laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them. ... All men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights ... Appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions ... with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence. ...'"This convention doth further ... declare, that the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever hereafter be allowed, within this State, to all mankind: Provided, That the liberty of conscience, hereby granted, shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness."


-

Rhode Island, the fourth state to ratify the Articles of Confederation.....

Stated the following...

"That they, pursuing ... religious intentions, of Godly edifying themselves, and one another, in the Holy Christian faith and worship.


Okay, it is obvious that I can go on and on and on.....

But I want to say something first.  I have stated this several times now, but perhaps I have not made myself clear....It is MY intent, to say that our Forefathers founded this nation on Christian Principals....but it doesn't mean it is was designed to be a Christian Nation.  Even though, I think our forefathers never foresaw a day when it wouldn't be.

THAT is they way they think and believed.  I realize the danger of having a FEDERAL mandate on such a thing.  THAT would be wrong, I believe THEY (our forefathers knew it would be...and that is why they left it out......but to say that they were not Godly, Religious or in most cases Christian, well you ARE wrong...because evidence clearly shows they were.

[Bo D]

Let's go back to the words of Thomas Jefferson.

"Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God."

He called the writers of the New Testament "ignorant, unlettered men" who produced "superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications."

He called the Apostle Paul the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."

He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as "mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." He believed that the clergy used religion as a "mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves" and that "in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty."

And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that "the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

[Henry Hawk]

Let's go back to the words of Thomas Jefferson.

Okay...

Thomas Jefferson drafted a Day of Fasting & Prayer resolution, to be observed. It was introduced in the Virginia House of Burgesses by Robert Carter Nicholas, May 24, 1774.

Supported by Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee and George Mason, it passed unanimously:
"This House, being deeply impressed with apprehension ... from the hostile invasion of the city of Boston in our Sister Colony of Massachusetts Bay, whose commerce and harbor are, on the first day of June next, to be stopped by an armed force, deem it highly necessary that the said first day of June be set apart, by the members of this House, as a Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, devoutly to implore the Divine interposition, for averting the heavy calamity which threatens destruction to our civil rights. ... Ordered, therefore that the Members of this House do attend ... with the Speaker, and the mace, to the Church in this City, for the purposes aforesaid; and that the Reverend Mr. Price be appointed to read prayers, and the Reverend Mr. Gwatkin, to preach a sermon."

Why is it, he felt this important, if HE himself didn't have some sort of "Belief" in religion?  I KNOW, he differed himself among the many other forefathers, with his stance on religion, but, he WAS INDEED, somewhat religious. I have never ONCE claimed he was a Christian.  But he HAD FAITH, and felt it was important.

[Exterminator]

I have no interest in arguing with you.  It does no good.

Because you get soundly trounced every time you try.

[Exterminator]

...that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."[/i]

This speaks VOLUME of its religious stance, even calls our Christian practice.

In what world do you think you come anywhere close to practicing forbearance, love and charity?  What a freaking hypocrite.   

[Bo D]

Okay...

Thomas Jefferson drafted a Day of Fasting & Prayer resolution, to be observed. It was introduced in the Virginia House of Burgesses by Robert Carter Nicholas, May 24, 1774.

Supported by Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee and George Mason, it passed unanimously:
"This House, being deeply impressed with apprehension ... from the hostile invasion of the city of Boston in our Sister Colony of Massachusetts Bay, whose commerce and harbor are, on the first day of June next, to be stopped by an armed force, deem it highly necessary that the said first day of June be set apart, by the members of this House, as a Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, devoutly to implore the Divine interposition, for averting the heavy calamity which threatens destruction to our civil rights. ... Ordered, therefore that the Members of this House do attend ... with the Speaker, and the mace, to the Church in this City, for the purposes aforesaid; and that the Reverend Mr. Price be appointed to read prayers, and the Reverend Mr. Gwatkin, to preach a sermon."

Why is it, he felt this important, if HE himself didn't have some sort of "Belief" in religion?  I KNOW, he differed himself among the many other forefathers, with his stance on religion, but, he WAS INDEED, somewhat religious. I have never ONCE claimed he was a Christian.  But he HAD FAITH, and felt it was important.

And later, Jefferson wrote about that occasion ...

"We were under the conviction of the necessity of arousing our people from the lethargy into which they had fallen as to passing events and thought that the appointment of a day of general fasting and prayer would be most likely to call up and alarm their attention." Jefferson's role in the adoption and promotion of the Day and Fasting and Prayer resolution illustrate his growing understanding of the importance of engaging the emotions of one's followers.

For Jefferson the decision to base a revolutionary appeal on religious grounds was expedient, reflecting more an understanding of politics than a belief that the Lord God of Hosts was about to intervene in British America. To frame an anti-British argument in the language of faith took the rhetorical fight to the enemy in a way that was difficult to combat. Jefferson and his colleagues could argue that they were only humbling themselves to the Lord, calling on a largely religious populace to fast and pray, not to resist authority.

The wording itself came after Jefferson and his comrades "rummaged" through Rushworth's collection of "revolutionary precedents and forms of the Puritans of that day."


https://books.google.com/books?id=f3HNBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT85&lpg=PT85&dq=thomas+jefferson+Day+of+Fasting+%26+Prayer+resolution&source=bl&ots=wmlzca-tvY&sig=cPJ13FUlL-4fd5w31a_W90ypJK8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=quonVZOAAeLLsASmhICQBg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=thomas%20jefferson%20Day%20of%20Fasting%20%26%20Prayer%20resolution&f=false

In other words, Jefferson was merely using religion as a tool to arouse the commoners.

[Henry Hawk]

In other words, Jefferson was merely using religion as a tool to arouse the commoners.

According to Jon Meacham, who authored that book.

[Bo D]

According to Jon Meacham, who authored that book.

No. According to me who read it.

[Exterminator]

In other words, Jefferson was merely using religion as a tool to arouse the commoners.

Because that's all religion is.

[Y]

According to Jon Meacham, who authored that book.

And there it is!

I don't know how many times I and others have pointed out to you that facts, evidence, and logic mean absolutely nothing to you.

You're an ideologue, and ideologues are impenetrable to anything but their ideology, and most are incapable of realizing they're ideologues.

It's why so many thinking folks perceive you to be a useless troll and a danger to society.

[Palehorse]

Here's an example of some of that "Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other." 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/11/us/arizona-parking-lot-brawl-video/index.html

Click the link to see the story I am referencing here, and to watch the video. . .