A Christian Nation?

[Henry Hawk]

Indeed it is.

Well we agree on something...and now, you finally admit you are against our 1st Amendment.

[Exterminator]

Well we agree on something...

Yeah, not so much.

...and now, you finally admit you are against our 1st Amendment.

Try not to pull your shoulder out of joint reaching for that conclusion.

[Y]

Well we agree on something...and now, you finally admit you are against our 1st Amendment.

You know, Hank, that dig might actually mean something IF you even had a glimmer of understanding of the Constitution or the First Amendment.   

[Y]

I am; actions speak louder than words.

I am too, and I -and I'm not the only one - have pointed out numerous instances where Hank's positions and support for positions cannot be reconciled with xtianity.

As well as what he picks and chooses from the bible to believe and support his beliefs doesn't jibe with Jesus.

Once again, what good is religion, and how is it moral, if it's only mouth and not actions?

[Y]

Nope.....it has been YOU and Y, who has set the level of interacting with one another.  Cheap shots and name-calling.  You own it.

Pffft!  Hank, you're still a crybaby just like you've always been as long as I've known you. 

You can't defend your positions, and when they're shredded to bits and you're soundly trounced, you always resort back to whining.

Why don't you just grow up - and bother to learn something.   

[Y]

Really?

I'd tend to agree.  Please point out some things you have supposedly learned since we've known you?

[Palehorse]

. . .
Just go back and read the preamble of each states Constitution.  Each one starts off with a significant giving of thanks to our Lord...in some fashion.  WHY? because they (our forefathers, placed an amazing value in religion).

...

Putting aside the fact that state constitutions are another matter entirely for a moment. . .

Let's start with my home state:

We, the People of the State of Illinois - grateful to
Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty
which He has permitted us to enjoy and seeking His blessing
upon our endeavors - in order to provide for the health,
safety and welfare of the people; maintain a representative
and orderly government; eliminate poverty and inequality;
assure legal, social and economic justice; provide
opportunity for the fullest development of the individual;
insure domestic tranquility; provide for the common defense;
and secure the blessings of freedom and liberty to ourselves
and our posterity - do ordain and establish this Constitution
for the State of Illinois.
(Source: Illinois Constitution.)

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/conent.htm

So on the surface I can see how you might be so quick to make such a wide-reaching summation. But. . .

Constitution of the State of Illinois
    Adopted at special election on December 15, 1970

Nearly 200 years AFTER the US Constitution was adopted and passed. I doubt any of the founding fathers were still sucking air at that time. . . Illinois became a state in 1815, so let's look at the original constitution from 1818 and see what that says:

Constitution of 1818.

Adopted at Kaskaskia in convention, August 26, 1818.

THE people of the Illinois territory, having the right of admission into the general government as a member of the Union, consistent with the constitution of the United States, the ordinance of congress of 1787, and the law of congress approved April 18th , 1818, entitled "An act to enable the people of the Illinois territory to form a constitution and state government, and for the admission of such state into the Union, on an equal footing with the original states, and for other purposes;" in order to es tablish justice, promote the welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and their posterity, do by their representatives in convention, ordain and establish the following constitution or form of government; and do mutually agree with each other to form themselves into a free and independent state, by the name of the State of Illinois. And they do hereby ratify the boundaries assigned to such state by the act of congress aforesaid, which are as follows, to wit: Beginning at the mouth of th e Wabash river, thence up the same, and with the line of Indiana to the northwest corner of said state; then east with the line of the same state, to the middle of Lake Michigan; thence north, along the middle of said lake, to north latitude 42 degrees a nd 30 minutes; thence west to the middle of the Mississippi river, and thence down, along the middle of that river, to its confluence with the Ohio river; and thence up the latter river, along its northwestern shore, to the beginning.

http://tippecanoe.tripod.com/c1818.html  <-- Yeah I know. But I confirmed it before I posted it by reading the original in digitized format here:https://archive.org/stream/constitutionofst00inilli#page/n1/mode/2up

Next let's look at the preamble to your home state - Indiana

We the Representatives of the people of the Territory of Indiana, in Convention met, at Corydon, on monday the tenth day of June in the year of our Lord eighteen hundred and sixteen, and of the Independence of the United States, the fortieth, having the right of admission into the General Government, as a member of the union, consistent with the constitution of the United States, the ordinance of Congress of one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven, and the law of Congress, entitle "An act to enable the people of the Indiana Territory to form a Constitution and State Government, and for the admission of such state into the union, on an equal footing with the original States" in order to establish Justice, promote the welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity; do ordain and establish the following constitution or form of Government, and do mutually agree with each other to form ourselves into a free and Independent state, by the name of the State of Indiana.

http://www.in.gov/history/2883.htm

Written in 1816, outside of the commonplace term "Year of our Lord" I don't see any reference what-so-ever to a "god" or "superior  being". . . As with the original version of that for Illinois.

My point being, if your read the original constitutions for the states, you likely will not find the language you claim within them to be as supportive of the position you hold as you think. . .

[Y]

we can trade quotes all day long and both of us can show strong points.

No, you can't, because it's patently obvious what you think isn't fact. 

.... It is impossible to convince me that the people who signed our documents and the people of that time, were NOT lets just say Godly people, who placed an enormous amount of value on the Holy Bible.  That upbringing by Biblical truths is what developed their personalities and THAT is the nature of their character, to be principled by the teachings of Gods Word, their Faith that was developed.

Of course it's impossible to convince you of anything because evidence, facts, and logic mean absolutely nothing to you.  You are an ideologue.  Ideologues are unwilling and/or unable to see that they are what they are and the fallacies of their ideology. 

Now, I personally believe we would be better off if we would ALL follow the teachings of Jesus Christ........but, that is never going to happen.

Hell, Hank, you don't even appear to accept those teachings. 

MY WHOLE ARGUMENT has always been, that this country was designed by mostly Christian, if NOT ALL believers of the Holy Bible (to some extent, I know there are a few who tote the line).

And you don't see that was primarily coincidental.  Whatever may have been their individual religious beliefs, or none at all, they created a nation designed to be free of the corrupting influences of religion.  That they did so is patently obvious to anyone but you RW/TP/Evangelical ideologues.

Just go back and read the preamble of each states Constitution.  Each one starts off with a significant giving of thanks to our Lord...in some fashion.  WHY? because they (our forefathers, placed an amazing value in religion).

So what?  That doesn't mean what you think it means.  Many of the original colonies which became states were founded as religious enclaves for religious dissidents.  Another thing is that such was the prevailing style of the time carrying over from our colonial past.

The fact that YOU was raised in a religious setting and that you have studied in GREAT detail Christian religion.

What in the world makes you think he's the only one around here?  I've told you many times I spent my entire youth in church and religion, and that religious and philosophical studies have been a passion of mine.  I posit you ignore it because you can't accept that someone knows far more about your religion than you do and rejects it on solid grounds.

I refuse to discuss with anyone on here, when they cannot respect me for my beliefs.  Using Gawd and Jeesbus and the such, I find offensive.  The God Sucks thread used to bother me, but it is a forum, and that is just the way it is.  I have NO PROBLEM with others not believing.  I would like to think they wouldn't have to lower themselves to third grade level to discuss issues on religion, but apparently they do.

First you complain and then you say you have "no problem"!  You're a hypocrite as people have told you for years.  Just face up to it and own it.

You get exactly as much respect for your beliefs as one would get for believing the earth is flat or the moon is made of green cheese.  They're inane beliefs that fly in the face of facts evidence and logic - just like your religious beliefs.  If you left them as your PERSONAL beliefs, no one would care because people have a right to be stupid and whatever gets you through the dark night is up to you, BUT as you advocate and support codifying your authoritarian moral insanity into OUR legal system, you're going to get treated as the nutcase and danger to OUR society that you are.

Sorry your widdle feelings get hurt over that.   

[Henry Hawk]

My point being, if your read the original constitutions for the states, you likely will not find the language you claim within them to be as supportive of the position you hold as you think. . .

Palehorse, the language could NOT be any clearer.... I just picked a few, the ones where our forefathers were STILL breathing.  Even Virginia, the home of Thomas Jefferson, even mentions Christianity in its preamble.

Again, MY POINT IS....God WAS extremely important to the people of that time....they even felt the need to Govern by Him.  This of all the things we have discussed on this forum..is one area, I KNOW FOR A FACT I am correct on.

But, it really don't mean a hill of beans does it.

Anyway, here is MORE PROOF to support my position.   

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates of their consciences .

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
other

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .

[Henry Hawk]

btw, Y....Not interested.   

[Exterminator]

...BUT as you advocate and support codifying your authoritarian moral insanity into OUR legal system, you're going to get treated as the nutcase and danger to OUR society that you are.

And right there it is.   

[Exterminator]

btw, Y....Not interested.   

Translation: I've got nothin'.

[Y]

Translation: I've got nothin'.

Truer words were never spoken - and he knows it.

[Y]

And right there it is.   

Yup!  Those RW/TP/Authoritarian/Evangelical ideologues don't understand they push people to take such a hard line against them because of their refusal, non-acceptance, and denial of science, history, facts, evidence, logic, context etc..

They'll lie and do anything to push their agenda into the legal system.  That's why they're so dangerous.

[Y]

Palehorse, the language could NOT be any clearer.... I just picked a few, the ones where our forefathers were STILL breathing.  Even Virginia, the home of Thomas Jefferson, even mentions Christianity in its preamble.

Only ONE specifically mentions xtianity by name, and then it only to point out what is SUPPOSED to be a xtian principle - also inferred to mean respecting of other beliefs.  The others DELIBERATELY leave it vague as to any specific religion or gawd - as does the D of I.

You obviously DON'T know why.  I told you yesterday, but you ignored it because the history and context doesn't suit your ideological agenda.

Many of the original colonies were created as different religious enclaves for religious dissidents from Europe.  Do  you know why there were those different enclaves?  Because those religious dissidents didn't have the same beliefs, and didn't like each other having brought their religious feuds and prejudices over from Europe - even going so far as to persecute each other just as they did in Europe.

The genius of our founders is that they created a SECULAR national government which also led to SECULAR state governments.  They didn't ignore history OR context, thank gawd!

Again, MY POINT IS....God WAS extremely important to the people of that time....they even felt the need to Govern by Him.  This of all the things we have discussed on this forum..is one area, I KNOW FOR A FACT I am correct on.

See, as I pointed out, you ideologues only see and claim what you can use to push your agenda.  You deny much of history and ignore context because it suits you. 

I pointed that out in discussing this issue: "Many of the original colonies which became states were founded as religious enclaves for religious dissidents.  Another thing is that such was the prevailing style of the time carrying over from our colonial past."

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates of their consciences .

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
other

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .

Not a ONE of those State Constitutions makes the claim of establishing a xtian government - and not ONE State does...just like our Federal government.

And that's all the time I'm going to waste in this post on your ridiculous stupidity.