An Air France plane missing over the Atlantic with 228 people aboard reported electrical problems in stormy weather before it lost contact, the airline said Monday, describing the loss as a "catastrophe."
The Airbus A330-200 sent automatic messages signaling equipment failure as it hit turbulence early in its 11-hour flight from Rio de Janeiro to Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris, Air France CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon told a news conference.
The last known contact with the plane was at 1:33 a.m. GMT (8:33 p.m. Sunday night ET), according to the Brazilian Air Force.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/01/air.france.brazil/index.html#cnnSTCOther1 (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/01/air.france.brazil/index.html#cnnSTCOther1)
Now the media is reporting that this plane encountered a storm just before it went down. . . (Or did it go down? Aliens may have absconded with it!) :wink:
This IS really kind of weird.............to just disappear..from radar.....lightning or not..in this day of technology.....seems strange.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 01, 2009, 12:29:08 PM
This IS really kind of weird.............to just disappear..from radar.....lightning or not..in this day of technology.....seems strange.
Drop low enough in altitude and that will happen. Its why fighter jets do the low & quick burn across water when approaching targets from sea.
I'm betting that thing had a catastrophic failure of its systems and fell like a lead balloon into the sea. (Last reported cruising at 35,000 feet) The only thing bothering me about that scenario is why they are not reporting debris fields at sea yet. . . If it hit the water in an uncontrolled state it should have come apart; resulting in a lot of debris floating about. . . But it's a big sea they're searching too I suppose.
If it fell due to a SAM hit, the same result. . . So far I am seeing nothing. . .
Do they still have a type of dye that should have also been activated?
Quote from: me on June 01, 2009, 12:57:57 PM
Do they still have a type of dye that should have also been activated?
Dunno. . . but probably not. That Hudson landing didn't have it from what I recall. They do have "EPIRBS" though. (Emergency position indicating radiobeacons). They are supposed to go off once they go into uncontrolled status if I recall correctly. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 01, 2009, 01:07:30 PM
Dunno. . . but probably not. That Hudson landing didn't have it from what I recall. They do have "EPIRBS" though. (Emergency position indicating radiobeacons). They are supposed to go off once they go into uncontrolled status if I recall correctly. . .
After I mentioned that I realized the incident I was thinking of was back in the late 50's when a plane my cousin was on went down and they were using dye at the time. I guess things have advanced quite a bit since then. They never did find the plane he was on along with 200+ other passengers.
Are you sure it wasn't your cousin's boss' daughter-in-law?
Quote from: Exterminator on June 01, 2009, 01:16:50 PM
Are you sure it wasn't your cousin's boss' daughter-in-law?
No, it was my cousin and please do not make light of it.
Quote from: me on June 01, 2009, 01:19:42 PM
No, it was my cousin and please do not make light of it.
Whatever...I'm sure one of your relatives has been abducted by aliens at some point as well; huh? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 01, 2009, 01:20:33 PM
Whatever...I'm sure one of your relatives has been abducted by aliens at some point as well; huh? :rolleyes:
Look ass wipe my aunt and uncle were devastated over that happening, he was their only son. It was not a pleasant thing to go though and I don't appreciate you making fun of it in the least.
Quote from: me on June 01, 2009, 01:23:23 PM
Look ass wipe my aunt and uncle were devastated over that happening, he was their only son. It was not a pleasant thing to go though and I don't appreciate you making fun of it in the least.
"Don't make fun of me, ass wipe," is not an effective strategy and no one cares about a supposed relative of yours who may or may not have disappeared in a plane crash 50 years ago.
Quote from: me on June 01, 2009, 01:23:23 PM
Look ass wipe my aunt and uncle were devastated over that happening, he was their only son. It was not a pleasant thing to go though and I don't appreciate you making fun of it in the least.
I can certainly understand your response here. If you ever find it possible I'd actually like to hear more about the whole incident. Where, when, what airline, destination, etc. . . Send it to me via private media and perhaps I can do a little research later this year on it. (I may have some time on my hands to do so).
You know with today's technology the discovery of old wrecks (Air, land, sea) are becoming commonplace. Look at what happened when they started searching for Fossett and all the old wrecks that they found!
Did that happen over sea???
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 01, 2009, 12:29:08 PM
This IS really kind of weird.............to just disappear..from radar.....lightning or not..in this day of technology.....seems strange.
There is no radar that far out in a transoceanic flight. :wink:
Quote from: Locutus on June 01, 2009, 01:56:53 PM
There is no radar that far out in a transoceanic flight. :wink:
Yea, after I made my posting I saw where they had traveled out of range of the Brazilian radar. . . The fuggen media made it sound as if they had just disappeared. . . and some still are! :rolleyes:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 01, 2009, 01:49:23 PM
I can certainly understand your response here. If you ever find it possible I'd actually like to hear more about the whole incident. Where, when, what airline, destination, etc. . . Send it to me via private media and perhaps I can do a little research later this year on it. (I may have some time on my hands to do so).
You know with today's technology the discovery of old wrecks (Air, land, sea) are becoming commonplace. Look at what happened when they started searching for Fossett and all the old wrecks that they found!
Did that happen over sea???
Thanks PH. I'll have to refresh my mind on some of the details since I was only 11yrs old or so at the time I can only remember at this point it was a commercial airliner and had military as well as private citizens aboard and it just disappeared with no trace.
Quote from: me on June 01, 2009, 01:59:46 PM
Thanks PH. I'll have to refresh my mind on some of the details since I was only 11yrs old or so at the time I can only remember at this point it was a commercial airliner and had military as well as private citizens aboard and it just disappeared with no trace.
Are the parents still living? This potentially could make an interesting piece of journalism in the right hands. . . with some background and investigation.
I know CNN has shown an interest in "cold cases" and historic incidents / mysteries in the past. . . You might consider running it past them at some point. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 01, 2009, 01:49:23 PM
I can certainly understand your response here. If you ever find it possible I'd actually like to hear more about the whole incident. Where, when, what airline, destination, etc. . . Send it to me via private media and perhaps I can do a little research later this year on it. (I may have some time on my hands to do so).
You know with today's technology the discovery of old wrecks (Air, land, sea) are becoming commonplace. Look at what happened when they started searching for Fossett and all the old wrecks that they found!
Did that happen over sea???
Yes, I'd like to hear more about it as well considering that I can find only 28 accidents in the history of aviation that resulted in 200 or more fatalities (passengers and crew), none of which happened before 1974.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 01, 2009, 01:58:50 PM
Yea, after I made my posting I saw where they had traveled out of range of the Brazilian radar. . . The fuggen media made it sound as if they had just disappeared. . . and some still are! :rolleyes:
Never completely trust the media. :biggrin:
Quote from: Locutus on June 01, 2009, 02:40:16 PM
Never completely trust the media. :biggrin:
FIFY!!.. ;D
what do you suppose the odds of this being an act of terror? :confused:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 01, 2009, 02:51:07 PM
what do you suppose the odds of this being an act of terror? :confused:
Slim to none.
Well, I'll admit to suspecting it may be an act of terror right out of the box. When the initial reports said they "disappeared" from radar without word, it came to mind. Considering there are very few situations aboard a commercial airliner that would cause it to do so, it did seem possible at first. . . to me.
And Locutus, I trust no one. . . :biggrin:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 01, 2009, 02:17:00 PM
Yes, I'd like to hear more about it as well considering that I can find only 28 accidents in the history of aviation that resulted in 200 or more fatalities (passengers and crew), none of which happened before 1974.
I'm getting even more interested as I can't seem to find any aircraft during that time period that would carry anywhere near that number of passengers.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 01, 2009, 03:05:36 PM
Slim to none.
That is not what China Confidential (http://chinaconfidential.blogspot.com/2009/06/terrorism-cant-be-ruled-out-as-cause-of.html) is claiming.....(btw....this is a highly classified source... ;D )
Investigators are not ruling out terrorism in the disappearance of Air France Flight 447, presumed to have crashed into the Atlantic Ocean with 228 people on board.
A terrorist bomb is unfortunately a more likely explanation than a lightning strike, even though the plane ran into lightning and strong thunderstorms over the Atlantic Ocean.
Lightning strikes of aircraft are rare; and jetliners have systems that dissipate electricity in the event of lightning strikes. I do believe, that this has got to be a possibility........it IS going to happen again....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 01, 2009, 03:27:29 PM
I do believe, that this has got to be a possibility........it IS going to happen again....
So when they figure it out and it turns out to be something other than a terrorist attack and I say, "I told you so," you'll be prepared to eat the appropriate crow; right? :biggrin:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 01, 2009, 03:32:55 PM
So when they figure it out and it turns out to be something other than a terrorist attack and I say, "I told you so," you'll be prepared to eat the appropriate crow; right? :biggrin:
I'm just saying it is POSSIBLE!!....may be 100,000 to 1.......but STILL possible... ;) :yes:
if in the event, that it IS a terrorist related incident..........the question will be, are YOU prepared to eat crow?... :razz: :yes:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 01, 2009, 02:06:52 PM
Are the parents still living? This potentially could make an interesting piece of journalism in the right hands. . . with some background and investigation.
I know CNN has shown an interest in "cold cases" and historic incidents / mysteries in the past. . . You might consider running it past them at some point. . .
Both parents are deceased now but I'm hoping mom can remember enough to get me on the right track anyway.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 01, 2009, 03:36:05 PM
I'm just saying it is POSSIBLE!!....may be 100,000 to 1.......but STILL possible... ;) :yes:
if in the event, that it IS a terrorist related incident..........the question will be, are YOU prepared to eat crow?... :razz: :yes:
You betcha! :yes:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 01, 2009, 03:11:17 PM
I'm getting even more interested as I can't seem to find any aircraft during that time period that would carry anywhere near that number of passengers.
I may be off on the number of passengers but I know he was headed back to base overseas after a two week leave and there were other military as well as civilian passengers on board. I know both my dad who had a background in navigation from his years in the Air Force and my uncle did nothing but go over maps for weeks trying to figure out where it might have gone down going from reports where it was last heard from. Not that they knew anymore than the military and or the others that were looking but it gave them something to do and helped them cope somewhat.
I just hope they find out something soon about this plane. As you can imagine I hate every time I hear about something like this. I am figuring at this point it was probably the storm that had to do with the disappearance rather than a terrorist attack though.
Quote from: me on June 01, 2009, 04:06:48 PM
I just hope they find out something soon about this plane. As you can imagine I hate every time I hear about something like this. I am figuring at this point it was probably the storm that had to do with the disappearance rather than a terrorist attack though.
I have some serious doubt about the storm being the driver of this incident. Most (if not all) new commercial airliners are built to sustain a direct hit from lightening, and it would take a
very serious storm and conditions to bring one down. . . It may end up being a contributor but I do not see it being the root cause of this incident.
Mechanical or electrical, it will end up being a catastrophic failure of systems being the root cause unless it is a terrorist act. . .
Still no sign of this aircraft this morning, and they are asking for U.S. satellite assistance in locating it. . . :-\
Quote from: me on June 01, 2009, 04:04:06 PM
I may be off on the number of passengers but I know he was headed back to base overseas after a two week leave and there were other military as well as civilian passengers on board. I know both my dad who had a background in navigation from his years in the Air Force and my uncle did nothing but go over maps for weeks trying to figure out where it might have gone down going from reports where it was last heard from. Not that they knew anymore than the military and or the others that were looking but it gave them something to do and helped them cope somewhat.
Like I said, I'm interested...try to narrow down the circumstances, time frame, airline, etc. and I'll look for the incident report. Did the plane go down over the Atlantic or Pacific? Are you certain there were civilians on board? I have found an Air Force plane that went down over the Pacific on March 22, 1957 with 57 passengers and 10 crew on board.
Reports surfacing that wreckage has been found in the Atlantic and they strongly suspect it to be the missing aircraft. . .
Quote from: Exterminator on June 02, 2009, 07:44:16 AM
Like I said, I'm interested...try to narrow down the circumstances, time frame, airline, etc. and I'll look for the incident report. Did the plane go down over the Atlantic or Pacific? Are you certain there were civilians on board? I have found an Air Force plane that went down over the Pacific on March 22, 1957 with 57 passengers and 10 crew on board.
That might be it. Mom can't remember too many details but I'm going over to get the box down she has the newspaper article stored in. I know this one was never found.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 02, 2009, 08:45:49 AM
Reports surfacing that wreckage has been found in the Atlantic and they strongly suspect it to be the missing aircraft. . .
I hope it is and I also hope they can rule out anything terrorist related.
Area where debris found is roughly along path Flight 447 would have taken.
Floating objects, seats among items found, say Brazilian aviation officials.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/02/brazil.france.plane.missing/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/02/brazil.france.plane.missing/index.html)
I've been following this story with great interest. What I find interesting is that they don't seem to know exactly where this jet was when it experienced these problems. I read that the jet transmitted automatic notifications of certain system failures to an Air France maintenance facility. My question is this. In this day of GPS, which the A330 would certainly have had, why wasn't position information transmitted with these messages? If the latitude and longitude of the plane's location had have been transmitted along with the alerts, it seems to me that locating the area where the problems arose would be much easier.
Quote from: Locutus on June 02, 2009, 02:04:29 PM
I've been following this story with great interest. What I find interesting is that they don't seem to know exactly where this jet was when it experienced these problems. I read that the jet transmitted automatic notifications of certain system failures to an Air France maintenance facility. My question is this. In this day of GPS, which the A330 would certainly have had, why wasn't position information transmitted with these messages? If the latitude and longitude of the plane's location had have been transmitted along with the alerts, it seems to me that locating the area where the problems arose would be much easier.
They might know more than the news is reporting because of not wanting every Tom. Dick, and Harry with the means to do so heading for the location until they can check things out. :wink:
Quote from: Locutus on June 02, 2009, 02:04:29 PM
I've been following this story with great interest. What I find interesting is that they don't seem to know exactly where this jet was when it experienced these problems. I read that the jet transmitted automatic notifications of certain system failures to an Air France maintenance facility. My question is this. In this day of GPS, which the A330 would certainly have had, why wasn't position information transmitted with these messages? If the latitude and longitude of the plane's location had have been transmitted along with the alerts, it seems to me that locating the area where the problems arose would be much easier.
I'm like you on this........I would think that the path taken would have been predefined, and simply following the route in which the plane took, and the time it took from it's take of would pretty much pin point it's location....within a few hundred miles anyway....and with today's technology.... :confused:
At the altitude and speed an A330 travels, the difference between the location at which the message was sent out and where the plane impacted the water is a whole lot of ocean.
That's true, and would be dependent on how much time elapsed between the onset of trouble and the eventual impact.
Yep and whether or not it continued to glide in a straight path or turned and wind strength and direction and the current when it was sinking and...
It seems a bit too coincidental that they would just go out of range of radar and then have this happen. . . unless of course they just dropped from 35,000 feet straight down, which is not likely. . .
Then there's the thousands of gallons of jet fuel that you know created an Exxon like slick on the ocean. . . Granted, they have to cover a lot of water but that stuff should have created a really large oil slick out there. . . And given the wind and current it should have spread fairly quickly. . .
But vast spaces of water can trick you too; make you see things that aren't there and miss things that are at times. . .
I understand the oil slick is one of the things that eventually got their attention though. Ships are on their way to the site and should be arriving soon if they aren't already there.
What I heard was electrical system failure was the trouble codes they received. That would include navigations as well wouldn't it? If it were a big enough problem that could have eliminated any EPIRB broadcasts as well. . .
"Many factors can complicate a search effort. Trade winds and currents can quickly scatter wreckage across a wide area, and the plane's altitude can make it difficult to pin down where a craft hit the water." - CNN
:biggrin: I think that CNN must be reading our posts! :biggrin:
That came straight off the front page, headline article. . .
Things we've already concluded and well ahead of them! :biggrin:
We need to change the thread to ZNN (Zone News Network)...
LOL! That's great! :biggrin:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 02, 2009, 03:56:01 PM
We need to change the thread to ZNN (Zone News Network)...
I love it. :biggrin:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 02, 2009, 03:56:01 PM
We need to change the thread to ZNN (Zone News Network)...
I'll be danged. . . That's kinda catchy there Hawk! I like it myself! :yes: :biggrin:
The letters are already in use. :wink:
ZNN - Zenzibar News Network
Headlines on the arts, social change and politics with both edited and reader-submitted selections.
www.zenzibar.com/news/ - 44k
Quote from: pariann on June 03, 2009, 08:15:29 AM
The letters are already in use. :wink:
ZNN - Zenzibar News Network
Headlines on the arts, social change and politics with both edited and reader-submitted selections.
www.zenzibar.com/news/ - 44k
Party pooper! :icon_evil:
Well you know me......if I can't join the party, I'll just put a damper on it. :wink:
Just heard something about a bomb threat having been called into the airline 4 days prior to the accident happening but missed the story. Has anyone else heard about it?
Quote from: me on June 03, 2009, 11:12:15 AM
Just heard something about a bomb threat having been called into the airline 4 days prior to the accident happening but missed the story. Has anyone else heard about it?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8pDGy-kO3v1m6Z-GkCD_J94us6QD98J980O1 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8pDGy-kO3v1m6Z-GkCD_J94us6QD98J980O1)
Air France: False bomb threat in Buenos Aires
Thanks Bo :smile:
Quote from: Bo D on June 03, 2009, 11:28:15 AM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8pDGy-kO3v1m6Z-GkCD_J94us6QD98J980O1 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8pDGy-kO3v1m6Z-GkCD_J94us6QD98J980O1)
Air France: False bomb threat in Buenos Aires
They've found a large section of the aircraft and a second, "huge" oil slick, 50 or so miles south of the initial debris discovery according to CNN.
I speculate they are now a lot closer to where the main aircraft is and the initial point of impact. . .
Hey, that bomb thing could turn out to be no joke. . . Certainly is not outside the realm of possibility given the circumstances surrounding how this aircraft went down. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 03, 2009, 02:48:27 PM
They've found a large section of the aircraft and a second, "huge" oil slick, 50 or so miles south of the initial debris discovery according to CNN.
I speculate they are now a lot closer to where the main aircraft is and the initial point of impact. . .
Hey, that bomb thing could turn out to be no joke. . . Certainly is not outside the realm of possibility given the circumstances surrounding how this aircraft went down. . .
I think the Bomb thing is VERY likely..........considering the circumstances.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 03, 2009, 02:55:00 PM
I think the Bomb thing is VERY likely..........considering the circumstances.
At a minimum, in my mind it is as least as likely as a catastrophic electrical failure that takes out all redundant systems on board the aircraft!
I keep reading speculation surrounding the storm and/or lightening taking down this aircraft, and I am having a hard time accepting that as the cause. It may very well end up being the case, but right now I'm not ready to buy it.
They fly those things in all kinds of weather and train to do so. Ice is their worst enemy along with wind shear. But at 35,000 feet I believe most competent commercial pilots would be able to recover from a wind shear incident.
Lightening is also accounted for within the aircraft and its systems, with flights taking direct hits, and sometimes multiple hits, on a daily basis world wide. They are built to do so. . .
Something strikes me as hinkey with this whole scenario. I've been wrong many times before though. . .
. . .And another thing. . .
They found seats and parts in 4 different areas, and two oil slicks 56 miles apart. Wouldn't that be indicative, at least on some level, of the aircraft breaking apart in flight? I realize that wind and current will separate debris sometimes, and the area this plane went down in is a juncture for the trade winds and currents. . . so maybe that's it. . .
And those messages automatically sent by the system indicated massive electrical failures of multiple systems, along with loss of cabin pressure @ 35,000 feet. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 03, 2009, 03:12:31 PM
At a minimum, in my mind it is as least as likely as a catastrophic electrical failure that takes out all redundant systems on board the aircraft!
I keep reading speculation surrounding the storm and/or lightening taking down this aircraft, and I am having a hard time accepting that as the cause. It may very well end up being the case, but right now I'm not ready to buy it.
They fly those things in all kinds of weather and train to do so. Ice is their worst enemy along with wind shear. But at 35,000 feet I believe most competent commercial pilots would be able to recover from a wind shear incident.
Lightening is also accounted for within the aircraft and its systems, with flights taking direct hits, and sometimes multiple hits, on a daily basis world wide. They are built to do so. . .
Something strikes me as hinkey with this whole scenario. I've been wrong many times before though. . .
Remember though, the A330 is fly-by-wire. :wink:
That means a computer is right smack in between the pilots and the flight control actuators. In an electronics failure, if the redundant systems were also affected, there could have been a loss of control of the aircraft. No control over the flight control surfaces and you're most likely going down, especially if in turbulence and storms.
It's a 330 isn't it? I'm pretty sure it was. The 320 only holds about 6,000 US gallons of fuel verses the 330's 25,600.
The 320 only holds 150 passengers verses the 258 or so of the 330.
They use the 330 series for refueling tanker aircraft as well if I recall. . .
Yes, sorry it was a 330. Typo.
Still, same fly by wire system on that series of aircraft.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 03, 2009, 02:48:27 PM
They've found a large section of the aircraft and a second, "huge" oil slick, 50 or so miles south of the initial debris discovery according to CNN.
I speculate they are now a lot closer to where the main aircraft is and the initial point of impact. . .
Hey, that bomb thing could turn out to be no joke. . . Certainly is not outside the realm of possibility given the circumstances surrounding how this aircraft went down. . .
If it was a bomb, a) they are less likely to find larger pieces of the aircraft still intact, and b) they will be able to test any piece they do find and be able to tell in short order that explosives were the cause.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 03, 2009, 03:21:50 PM
. . .And another thing. . .
They found seats and parts in 4 different areas, and two oil slicks 56 miles apart. Wouldn't that be indicative, at least on some level, of the aircraft breaking apart in flight? I realize that wind and current will separate debris sometimes, and the area this plane went down in is a juncture for the trade winds and currents. . . so maybe that's it. . .
I think you underestimate the forces on something as large as an A330 falling out of the sky from 35,000 feet.
Quote from: Locutus on June 03, 2009, 04:09:34 PM
Yes, sorry it was a 330. Typo.
Still, same fly by wire system on that series of aircraft.
Yep. They also have the side mounted stick controls on this series of aircraft verses the traditional center mounted yoke.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 03, 2009, 04:12:01 PM
I think you underestimate the forces on something as large as an A330 falling out of the sky from 35,000 feet.
No, but I did fail to account for the fact that a loss of electronics on a level that would also take out redundant systems renders the friggin thing uncontrollable. . . Now that would definately cause it to break up in flight. . .
They have not conducted tests for explosive residue, that they are saying at this time anyway. I venture to say we won't hear anything for quite some time; as in years. It'll take them the rest of the year at minimum to raise whatever is left from Davey Jones locker. . .
I really hope they can recover the CVR and FDR. Those are the only things that may tell us exactly what happened and shed some light on why it crashed. That's a TALL order in the kind of weather that they're in. The floor of the Atlantic is also very mountainous in that area. It will be a challenge, but I really hope they find them.
This is the approximate location that we're talking about.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/8yrexi.png)
Looks like they made it about half way across before running into trouble.
They can find them, its just a matter of time, dollars, and equipment. Let's hope they came to rest atop one of those mountains instead of at the bottom of it.
I guess the loss of cabin pressure is also related to the electronic systems failure. . . I just normally associate that with loss of cabin integrity though. . . And I wonder if the message surrounding cabin pressure loss was at the front of the 4-5 minutes in which these messages were sent????
Given the low profit levels of airlines these days I am also wondering how much time and $$ they'll spend before giving up?
And just for clarification sake, I am not a pilot. Most of the info I know comes from the manufacturer's web sites. I do however have this quirk; You know how when you fly they typically tell you the type of aircraft you are flying on? Well, I look that stuff up beforehand for some reason. In fact I do not feel comfortable flying unless I've done so. . . Weird I know. . .
I'd love to be able to fly but . . . not something I can afford anyway so why bother??
Submersibles on the way to the sites but being delayed by high seas. ETA sometime next week.
CVR and FDR both contain location transmitters that transmit for up to 30 days, which should make locating them a little easier once the subs get there. (If they're still working).
I read speculation that the huge oil slicks are indicative of the plane not breaking up and burning before impact. . . And then more speculation that it doesn't indicate any such thing. . .
Frickin media sluts. . . :rant:
Our own discussions serve as a much more reliable source of information and brainstorming. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 03, 2009, 05:24:55 PM
I'd love to be able to fly but . . . not something I can afford anyway so why bother??
Have you never read my signature line? :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 04, 2009, 08:31:33 AM
I read speculation that the huge oil slicks are indicative of the plane not breaking up and burning before impact. . . And then more speculation that it doesn't indicate any such thing. . .
They are starting to indicate that the clues they are finding so far are not consistent with either a fire or an explosion. Guess I should start setting the table...Henry, would you like a side dish with your crow? :biggrin:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 10:04:38 AM
They are starting to indicate that the clues they are finding so far are not consistent with either a fire or an explosion. Guess I should start setting the table...Henry, would you like a side dish with your crow? :biggrin:
That there crow might be cold before you can serve it up though. . . They still are not ruling out foul play either. . . And it may be quite awhile before they say one way or another.
It'll be very interesting to hear what their final ruling is surrounding cause. . .
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 10:01:54 AM
Have you never read my signature line? :biggrin:
Yea. . . :biggrin: Had some experiences with that hobby of yours while with my uncle Sam. . . I'm thinking that was enough for my personal tastes. . . :wink: :smile:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 04, 2009, 10:11:13 AM
That there crow might be cold before you can serve it up though. . . They still are not ruling out foul play either. . . And it may be quite awhile before they say one way or another.
It'll be very interesting to hear what their final ruling is surrounding cause. . .
I'm betting that there was some type of electrical problem (I'm clairvoyant that way) that led to the aircraft being rendered uncontrollable which ultimately led to it hurtling through the air as opposed to flying and probably a catastrophic failure of the airframe in the process.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 04, 2009, 10:12:58 AM
Yea. . . :biggrin: Had some experiences with that hobby of yours while with my uncle Sam. . . I'm thinking that was enough for my personal tastes. . . :wink: :smile:
Being thrown out of an airplane at 800 feet with a rucksack and a round parachute is also not flying. It's falling.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 10:44:58 AM
Being thrown out of an airplane at 800 feet with a rucksack and a round parachute is also not flying. It's falling.
HALO drops aren't lying either! :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 04, 2009, 10:55:49 AM
HALO drops aren't lying either! :biggrin:
Actually, I would consider HALO flying...freefall is the shite!
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 10:58:50 AM
Actually, I would consider HALO flying...freefall is the shite!
Not at night though. . . :spooked:
OMFG! :rolleyes:
They're coming out of the wood work now. 2 pilots have reported seeing a "bright intense flash" and watching an immediate and sharp decline in attitude of this flight, followed by something about a "breakup". . . They both filed reports with the airlines and transportation authorities.
Conjecture continues to "fly" over the cause of this crash. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 04, 2009, 11:05:24 AM
Not at night though. . . :spooked:
I guess it depends on your perspective...I got out in the dark near Applewood on July 4 one year and it was way cool.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 12:01:37 PM
I guess it depends on your perspective...I got out in the dark near Applewood on July 4 one year and it was way cool.
I found it unsettling since it dulls depth perception. . . at least for me. Of Course I wasn't over a city shopping center either. . . :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 04, 2009, 01:32:54 PM
I found it unsettling since it dulls depth perception. . . at least for me. Of Course I wasn't over a city shopping center either. . . :biggrin:
With fireworks!
I had to google Halo..........and, I think IF, I was to jump out of a perfectly good operating airplane...I would more than likely do the HAHO........opening the shoot..........IMMEDIATLY after leaving the plane....
Now, with THAT said, I would LOVE to have the desire to halo.......because I think it would be awesome....at one time, I think I could have done such a thing.........but for what ever reason, that desire, has all but left me...
maybe someday? :confused:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 04, 2009, 01:40:42 PM
Was that at the old ACE airport?
Yeah, before the geebuz freaks took it over. That's ok, there was enough debauchery there to haunt that ground for a thousand years. :biggrin:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 01:44:12 PM
Yeah, before the geebuz freaks took it over. That's ok, there was enough debauchery there to haunt that ground for a thousand years. :biggrin:
I miss the ol airport...I always thought it would have been cool to open up a restaurant there...
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 01:34:01 PM
With fireworks!
Now that HAD to be pretty cool! :yes:
And Henry, you'll have to do an awful lot of static line jumps before you obtain the ability to HALO safely. I know I did. . .
I suppose it's a thrill for a young buck, but eventually the risk increases when yah start "maturing", and your bones / joints will talk to you if you don't keep your skills up to snuff. :biggrin:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 01:44:12 PM
Yeah, before the geebuz freaks took it over. That's ok, there was enough debauchery there to haunt that ground for a thousand years. :biggrin:
Whereabouts was this place at? (Before my time in Andertard) Was it where the big ol new COG joint is now?
Quote from: Palehorse on June 04, 2009, 01:54:46 PM
Whereabouts was this place at? (Before my time in Andertard) Was it where the big ol new COG joint is now?
South of the overpass on Columbus on the west side of the road.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 04, 2009, 01:54:46 PM
Whereabouts was this place at? (Before my time in Andertard) Was it where the big ol new COG joint is now?
I think so...west side of Columbus Ave. just south of I-69 and the transfer station (if you know where that is...behind Magnequench).
Quote from: Exterminator on June 04, 2009, 02:06:01 PM
I think so...west side of Columbus Ave. just south of I-69 and the transfer station (if you know where that is...behind Magnequench).
Quote from: me on June 04, 2009, 02:02:20 PM
South of the overpass on Columbus on the west side of the road.
Yup, that would be it. . .
A pilot offers his perspective. (http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2009/06/02/askthepilot322/)
I enjoyed reading that Ex. Thanks for sharing.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/05/brazil.plane.crash/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/05/brazil.plane.crash/index.html)
. . .Transmissions from the aircraft in the final moments before it vanished over the Atlantic Ocean show there was an "inconsistency" in measured airspeeds, Airbus said.
The company did not elaborate, but a former U.S. aviation safety official told CNN on Friday that such a problem "could really be disastrous."
"If [airspeed indicators] are malfunctioning, it can give a false read into the cockpit that can be misinterpreted," said Peter Goeltz, former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board.
The jet flew into a storm before going down and may have been flying at the wrong speed for those weather conditions, officials have said. . .
They're finding floaters. . .
Yep. Sixteen more.
I hear they found the tail section.
Yep! Hopefully, that'll help them narrow the area in which they're searching for the CVR and FDR.
It has been over a week now and there sure hasn't been much progress in the investigation. About 10% of the bodies have been recovered, and those were floaters, and the tail section. Still no sight of the main wreckage and nothing more than speculation surrounding what may have happened. . .
It's a big search area, a big ocean, and a big aircraft stuck in pieces somewhere within it. . .
Sounds like they might be LOST.
(I love that show.)
Quote from: pariann on June 10, 2009, 08:21:33 AM
Sounds like they might be LOST.
(I love that show.)
I wonder just how much of an impact predation is playing in the body recovery effort? Seems to me that the resulting carnage would have drawn large numbers of sharks. . . Some of them are tagged with tracking devices, (due to scientific studies), and perhaps these could be used to help locate the main wreckage???
Terror Names Linked To Doomed Flight AF 447 (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Terror-Names-Linked-To-Doomed-Flight-AF-447-Two-Passengers-Shared-Names-Of-Radical-Muslims/Article/200906215300405?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15300405_Terror_Names_Linked_To_Doomed_Flight_AF_447%3A_Two_Passengers_Shared_Names_Of_Radical_Muslims)
Two passengers with names linked to Islamic terrorism were on the Air France flight which crashed with the loss of 228 lives, it has emerged.
French secret servicemen established the connection while working through the list of those who boarded the doomed Airbus in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on May 31.
Flight AF 447 crashed in the mid-Atlantic en route to Paris during a violent storm.
While it is certain there were computer malfunctions, terrorism has not been ruled out.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2009, 01:29:45 PM
Terror Names Linked To Doomed Flight AF 447 (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Terror-Names-Linked-To-Doomed-Flight-AF-447-Two-Passengers-Shared-Names-Of-Radical-Muslims/Article/200906215300405?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15300405_Terror_Names_Linked_To_Doomed_Flight_AF_447%3A_Two_Passengers_Shared_Names_Of_Radical_Muslims)
Two passengers with names linked to Islamic terrorism were on the Air France flight which crashed with the loss of 228 lives, it has emerged.
French secret servicemen established the connection while working through the list of those who boarded the doomed Airbus in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on May 31.
Flight AF 447 crashed in the mid-Atlantic en route to Paris during a violent storm.
While it is certain there were computer malfunctions, terrorism has not been ruled out.
Can anybody explain why this doesn't surprise me?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2009, 01:29:45 PM
Terror Names Linked To Doomed Flight AF 447 (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Terror-Names-Linked-To-Doomed-Flight-AF-447-Two-Passengers-Shared-Names-Of-Radical-Muslims/Article/200906215300405?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15300405_Terror_Names_Linked_To_Doomed_Flight_AF_447%3A_Two_Passengers_Shared_Names_Of_Radical_Muslims)
Two passengers with names linked to Islamic terrorism were on the Air France flight which crashed with the loss of 228 lives, it has emerged.
French secret servicemen established the connection while working through the list of those who boarded the doomed Airbus in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on May 31.
Flight AF 447 crashed in the mid-Atlantic en route to Paris during a violent storm.
While it is certain there were computer malfunctions, terrorism has not been ruled out.
Oh, for crying out loud, you freaking pansy; look past your fear and imagine the possibility that an airplane crash in the midst of a violent storm after the plane had reported a malfunction might be something other than the mean-ole-boogey-man. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 10, 2009, 03:25:17 PM
Oh, for crying out loud, you freaking pansy; look past your fear and imagine the possibility that an airplane crash in the midst of a violent storm after the plane had reported a malfunction might be something other than the mean-ole-boogey-man. :rolleyes:
Perhaps Henry and I both should. . . I cannot help but have the thoughts given the what has transpired over the last 10 years though. Doesn't mean I believe it to be the source until scientifically confirmed though. . .
I am still finding it hard to understand how the crew could have lost control and flew into a storm that had the potential to drive such an incident; given the state of the art radar and capability to understand what they were flying into so well in advance. If the crew didn't have complete confidence in the equipment and its performance they could have flown around that storm, no?
Shit happens, and I guess you get the right combination of turds and this is what you get. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 03:33:31 PM
Shit happens, and I guess you get the right combination of turds and this is what you get. . .
Exactly and you don't know how true what you've just written is as it relates to aviation accidents; it is virtually never a single problem, event or response that brings down an aircraft but a series of them.
If terrorists were involved, why has no one claimed responsibility? What's the point of crashing a plane if there's no political statement to be made?
Quote from: Exterminator on June 10, 2009, 03:25:17 PM
Oh, for crying out loud, you freaking pansy; look past your fear and imagine the possibility that an airplane crash in the midst of a violent storm after the plane had reported a malfunction might be something other than the mean-ole-boogey-man. :rolleyes:
I'm just passing on the news EX....I am not afraid of anything regarding this.......but, terrorism HAS not been ruled out...that is ALL I'm saying....it is YOU who says there is absolutely NO way it could be terrorism....and, despite your incredible intellect, you MAY be wrong.
Yes, I could be...but I'm not.
The point surrounding the fact no one has claimed responsibility is a good one, and the very thought that has kept me from talking about that possibility in depth to this point.
Yes, I initially had that train of thought, and no it has not entirely left. I just believe that had it been the case some dill weed would have stepped to the plate and laid claim to it by now. . . as Ex stated.
I agree too, I have my doubts that it is terrorist related....I always have.....I just said it could be possible...based upon some of the reports. It has NOT been 100% ruled out for a reason though.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 01, 2009, 12:08:04 PM
Now the media is reporting that this plane encountered a storm just before it went down. . . (Or did it go down? Aliens may have absconded with it!) :wink:
Maybe they just tried to go over the storms:
http://elf.gi.alaska.edu/movies/wf3541.mpg (http://elf.gi.alaska.edu/movies/wf3541.mpg)
More commentary from Ask The Pilot. (http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2009/06/08/storm/index.html)
SAO PAULO – Autopsies revealed fractures in the legs, hips and arms of Air France disaster victims, a Brazilian official said Wednesday. Experts said those injuries — and the large pieces of wreckage pulled from the Atlantic — strongly suggest the plane broke up in the air.
There have been no visible signs of burning or charring on bodies or wreckage, though that doesn't rule out an explosion somewhere outside the passenger cabin, these crash experts told The Associated Press.
A spokesman for Brazilian medical examiners told the AP that the fractures were found in autopsies on an undisclosed number of the 50 bodies recovered so far. The official spoke on condition he not be named due to department rules.
"Typically, if you see intact bodies and multiple fractures — arm, leg, hip fractures — it's a good indicator of a midflight break up," said Frank Ciacco, a former forensic expert at the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. "Especially if you're seeing large pieces of aircraft as well."
The pattern of fractures was first reported Wednesday by Brazil's O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper, which cited unamed investigators. The paper also reported that some victims were found with little or no clothing, and had no signs of burns.
That lack of clothing could be significant, said Jack Casey, an aviation safety consultant in Washington, D.C., who is a former accident investigator. "In an in-air break up like we are supposing here, the clothes are just torn away."
Casey also said multiple fractures are consistent with a midair breakup of the plane, which was
cruising at about 34,500 feet (10,500 meters) when it went down.
"Getting ejected into that kind of windstream is like hitting a brick wall — even if they stay in their seats, it is a crushing effect," Casey said. "Most of them were long dead before they hit the water would be my guess."
When a jet crashes into water mostly intact — such as the Egypt Air plane that hit the Atlantic Ocean after taking off from New York in 1999 — debris and bodies are generally broken into small pieces, Ciacco said. "When you've had impact in the water, there is a lot more fragmentation of the bodies. They hit the water with a higher force."
Lack of burn evidence would not necessarily rule out an explosion, said John Goglia, a former member of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board.
If something caused the lower fuselage to burn or explode, "passengers would not be exposed to any blast damage" and the plane would still disintegrate in flight," Goglia said. "These are scenarios that cannot be ruled out."
In Paris, Paul-Louis Arslanian, head of the French air accident investigation agency BEA, said search teams had recovered more than 400 pieces of debris — reason for "a little more optimism," since it has helped narrow the search for the black boxes in a vast area of the mid-Atlantic.
"We are in a situation that is a bit more favorable than the first days," Arslanian told a news conference at BEA headquarters outside Paris. "We can say there is a little less uncertainty, so there is a little more optimism."
"(But) it is premature for the time being to say what happened," he added.
Searchers from Brazil, France, the United States and other countries are methodically scanning the surface and depths of the Atlantic for signs of the Airbus A330 that crashed May 31 after running into thunderstorms en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris. All 228 people aboard were killed.
Still missing are the plane's flight data and voice recorders, thought to be deep under water.
French-chartered ships are trolling a search area with a radius of 50 miles (80 kilometers), pulling U.S. Navy underwater listening devices attached to 19,700 feet (6,000 meters) of cable. The black boxes send out an electronic tapping sound that can be heard up to 1.25 miles (2 kilometers) away, but these locator beacons will begin to fade after just two more weeks.
"It is one of the worst situations ever known in an accident investigation," Arslanian said.
Without the black boxes to help explain what went wrong, the investigation has focused on a flurry of automated messages sent by the plane minutes before it lost contact; one suggests external speed sensors had iced over, destabilizing the plane's control systems.
Arslanian said most of the messages appear to be "linked to this loss of validity of speed information." He said when the speed information became "incoherent" it affected other systems on the plane that relied on that speed data. But he stressed that not all the automated messages were related to the speed sensors.
The automated messages were not alarm calls and no distress call was picked up from the plane, he said.
Air France has replaced the sensors, called Pitot tubes, on all its A330 and A340 aircraft, under pressure from pilots who feared a link to the accident.
Arslanian said a French doctor from the BEA was not allowed to participate in autopsies done so far on some Flight 447 bodies by Brazilian authorities, and those autopsy results have not been released to the BEA. He said he was "not happy" with this situation.
However, he added that French judicial authorities, who are conducting a parallel criminal probe, were present at the autopsies.
Brazil's Federal Police and state medical authorities in Recife who are overseeing the autopsies said in a statement that two French investigators, a dental expert and a doctor, had been following the examinations as observers since June 10.
The French are leading the crash investigation, while the Brazilians are leading the rescue operation.
Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane;_ylt=Ald.fIM5QJ.1ejQ0MnmCOBms0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTIyaGhnbGdpBGFzc2V0Ay9hcC9icmF6aWxfcGxhbmUEcG9zAzIEc2VjA3luX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA2F1dG9wc2llc3N1Zw--)
Looks like a midair breakup. :spooked:
Quote from: Locutus on June 17, 2009, 02:48:51 PM
Looks like a midair breakup. :spooked:
:spooked: It was raining men, women, and children! :spooked:
Hopefully, they died quickly. I can't imagine how horrific that must have been for them.
Quote from: Locutus on June 17, 2009, 03:13:32 PM
Hopefully, they died quickly. I can't imagine how horrific that must have been for them.
Given the fact they were at cruising speed and altitude when whatever happened, happened, that is probably right. . . They'd have suffocated at worst, but more than likely were knocked out by the wind forces and debris. . .
I specualte that such is far better than a 3-4 minute fall to the water in any case. BAM! Then whatever is next. . . Seems better anyway. . . :eek:
Given that the plane reported that the cabin had depressurized, it is unlikely anyone was even conscious.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 17, 2009, 03:29:18 PM
Given that the plane reported that the cabin had depressurized, it is unlikely anyone was even conscious.
do you remember when Payne Stewart the golfer died in a plane accident........the cause was depressurization of the plane....they said, he merely passed out within a few seconds...I'm guessing that was the case here too.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 17, 2009, 03:29:18 PM
Given that the plane reported that the cabin had depressurized, it is unlikely anyone was even conscious.
At that altitude, and if the masks didn't deploy, they would have had around 15 seconds or so before losing consciousness. You may be right.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 17, 2009, 04:14:19 PM
do you remember when Payne Stewart the golfer died in a plane accident........the cause was depressurization of the plane....they said, he merely passed out within a few seconds...I'm guessing that was the case here too.
IIRC, that was a slow loss of pressure, so everyone would have started to get sleepy as the hypoxia set in. I'm going to look up that info and see if I'm recalling correctly.
Yep, I was right.
Quote
Early in the flight, the aircraft was cruising at altitude on autopilot and gradually lost cabin pressure. As a result, all on board died of hypoxia, a lack of oxygen. The aircraft continued its flight over the southern and midwestern United States for almost four hours and 1,500 miles (2,400 km), until it ran out of fuel and crashed into a field near Aberdeen, South Dakota after an uncontrolled descent.[1] Among the six people on board were golf star Payne Stewart and Bruce Borland, a highly regarded golf architect with the Jack Nicklaus golf course design company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash
Jeebus! I can't believe that's been 10 years ago.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 17, 2009, 04:14:19 PM
do you remember when Payne Stewart the golfer died in a plane accident........the cause was depressurization of the plane....they said, he merely passed out within a few seconds...I'm guessing that was the case here too.
Actually, Stewart's plane had a faulty valve that never allowed the plane to pressurize, which lulled the crew and passengers to sleep. Not quite the same as rapid depressurization.
More speculation surrounding this loss of craft:
- 95% of the recovered bodies show fractures in the hips, legs, and arms, and have no clothing on them
- Low incidence of cranial trauma indicates that the craft did not nose dive into the water.
- A large number of the bodies also had red lesions in their mucous membranes, which is associated with asphyxia
- All of the bodies found were "mutilated" which along with the no clothing item is a strong indication of violent depressurization caused by structural rupture.
No CVR / FDR recovery as of yet and the window of time is closing rapidly. . .
They've ID'd the bodies of the flight captain and a steward among the bodies recovered. . .
Still no CVR or FDR located. . .
Another Airbus 310 has gone down over water, off the coast of Yemen. 150 people aboard and thus far only a small child has been found alive.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/30/yemen.plane.crash/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/30/yemen.plane.crash/index.html)
Quote from: Palehorse on June 30, 2009, 07:19:13 AM
Another Airbus 310 has gone down over water, off the coast of Yemen. 150 people aboard and thus far only a small child has been found alive.
Terrorists! :eek:
They need to waterboard that kid; he knows something.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 30, 2009, 10:49:27 AM
They need to waterboard that kid; he knows something.
:spooked: :rotfl:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 30, 2009, 10:49:27 AM
They need to waterboard that kid; he knows something.
ROFL....shut up!!!
Funny thing, Jacko (still! :rolleyes: ) and some toxic town in OK both outweigh this story as far as newsworthiness. It has already been relegated to "also" status on CNN's web site. . .
I think the kids the anti chirst! :icon_twisted:
Air France 447 did not break up in flight, but "went straight down, almost vertically," investigators say.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/07/02/air.france.report/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/07/02/air.france.report/index.html)
*Delay in link due to breaking news status. Link was posted as soon as story was published.
What the hell does this mean?
"Based on visual study of the physical remains of the Airbus A330 that have been recovered, "we were able to see that the plane hit the surface of the water flat. Therefore everything was pushed upwards -- everything was pushed from the bottom to the top" of the plane, he said."
That sounds odd.
Quote from: Locutus on July 02, 2009, 01:42:08 PM
What the hell does this mean?
"Based on visual study of the physical remains of the Airbus A330 that have been recovered, "we were able to see that the plane hit the surface of the water flat. Therefore everything was pushed upwards -- everything was pushed from the bottom to the top" of the plane, he said."
That sounds odd.
Same reaction I had when I first read it.
It sounds like the aircraft may have gone into a "flat spin" and hit the water wheel-side first; which strikes me as very unusual. Even if the aircraft had lost enough thrust to maintain height and forward motion, it would have adopted a nose first attitude during stall and the resulting descent. No?
I do not understand how an aircraft of that size could have struck the water wheels first, with the direction of "travel" being straight down. . .???? Yet the physical / forensic information is indicating that is exactly what happened?
Even in wind shear I don't see this happening!
Maybe they lost power and went into a steep dive, regaining power near the deck, but not in time to overcome the inertia. This would have enabled them to lift the nose and smack the water wheel side first?
Maybe they retained some control of the aircraft and were trying to ditch it in the drink but misjudged their altitude?
Quote from: Exterminator on July 02, 2009, 02:11:04 PM
Maybe they retained some control of the aircraft and were trying to ditch it in the drink but misjudged their altitude?
Possibility I am thinking. We have to assume they had no instruments at all with which to gauge attitude,altitude, and airspeed.
In that scenario I'm betting all aboard were pulling a few G's just prior to impact! :spooked: Maybe some of them blacked out. . .
If they pulled too many Gs (as in a steep enough dive), it would have led to structural failure of the aircraft and it wouldn't have hit intact.
Quote from: Locutus on July 02, 2009, 02:39:59 PM
If they pulled too many Gs (as in a steep enough dive), it would have led to structural failure of the aircraft and it wouldn't have hit intact.
Yeah, which is what is really strange about the whole thing. I cannot imagine a flat spin from 35k to 0 though. At some point you'd either break up or fall into a nose first attitude based upon the aeronautics. . .
A dive would overstress flight surfaces if you tried to pull out of it too quickly and result in the same thing; breakup. But, if you had no idea what your altitude was and timed it incorrectly it is possible. . . I think.
I once saw a P-38 do something similar and smack the deck wheels first. . . But that's a much smaller aircraft. . .
Their description makes it sound like they fell out of the sky like a brick. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on July 02, 2009, 02:28:46 PM
Possibility I am thinking. We have to assume they had no instruments at all with which to gauge attitude,altitude, and airspeed.
Even if they had an altitude reading, they aren't exact enough to be able to tell exactly when you're going to make contact. A friend of mine who flies an Airbus said that Sully had an ideal situation landing on the Hudson since he could look out of the window and judge his altitude by the buildings and whatnot on either side of the river. He said it would be a completely different scenario ditching in the ocean and he was apparently correct.
Exactly. Plus it was in bad weather and it was dark. Not a good situation to be in. The seas had to be rough in that weather as well.
Plus they already knew they could not trust any instruments in the first place. (I assume when the aircraft began sending messages it also triggered cockpit warning signals. . That may be incorrect though).
Unless they find those black boxes we may never know. It'd be a bitch for this to be Honeywell's first loss.
Yeah, that article said they're only going to keep looking unti July 10th. After that, they're giving up.
Quote from: Exterminator on July 02, 2009, 03:11:34 PM
Even if they had an altitude reading, they aren't exact enough to be able to tell exactly when you're going to make contact. . . .
Oh yeah. I found that out during the little time I spent in the right seat as a kid! :biggrin: I remember watching that altimeter and waiting for contact and getting the crap scared out of me when it came well before that instrument said it should have! :biggrin:
Quote from: Locutus on July 02, 2009, 03:24:10 PM
Yeah, that article said they're only going to keep looking unti July 10th. After that, they're giving up.
Some fishing vessel or Ballard will dredge them up in a few years. . . Probably long after the information dissolves though. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on July 02, 2009, 03:27:07 PM
Oh yeah. I found that out during the little time I spent in the right seat as a kid! :biggrin: I remember watching that altimeter and waiting for contact and getting the crap scared out of me when it came well before that instrument said it should have! :biggrin:
An altimeter is, of course, only accurate at the last location and barometric pressure at which it was zeroed.
Quote from: Exterminator on July 02, 2009, 03:41:15 PM
An altimeter is, of course, only accurate at the last location and barometric pressure at which it was zeroed.
:biggrin:
So what you are saying is if you zero it in Indiana and then fly to Denver, you might expect a little "variation"! :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on July 02, 2009, 03:48:44 PM
:biggrin:
So what you are saying is if you zero it in Indiana and then fly to Denver, you might expect a little "variation"! :biggrin:
Ya think? Of course, airliners have fairly sophisticated systems that calculate AGL based on location and I'd guess they correct for differences in barometric pressure as well but they still aren't exact. In the skydiving world we have no such luxuries so any time we do a demo jump where we aren't landing on the airport where we took off, we open a little higher to allow for a margin of error.
E BOURGET, France - Air France Flight 447 slammed into the Atlantic Ocean, intact and belly first, at such a high speed that the 228 people aboard probably had no time to even inflate their life jackets, French investigators said Thursday in their first report into the June 1 accident.
Likening the investigation to a puzzle with missing pieces, lead investigator Alain Bouillard said that one month after the crash, "we are very far from establishing the causes of the accident."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31707331/ns/world_news-europe/
^------ Try as I may, I can't imagine a situation that would lead to that.
How in the hell does a jet fall out of the sky flat on its belly?
Quote from: Locutus on July 02, 2009, 07:06:30 PM
^------ Try as I may, I can't imagine a situation that would lead to that.
How in the hell does a jet fall out of the sky flat on its belly?
In an uncontrolled, horizontal spin. If the tail broke away at altitude, as some have indicated, there would be nothing to stop the plane from a flat spin.
This topic is WAY old, and I hesitate to bump it, but I found a very interesting article about the causes of the crash as found by aviation safety experts who examined details of that fateful night. I figured I would post it in case any are interested in reading.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1282367/Air-France-crash-The-truth-disaster-killed-228-people.html
Quote from: Palehorse on June 01, 2009, 01:58:50 PM
Yea, after I made my posting I saw where they had traveled out of range of the Brazilian radar. . . The fuggen media made it sound as if they had just disappeared. . . and some still are! :rolleyes:
At 500 mph that plane could have been hundreds of miles off of it's flight plan. If that plane was forced into a vertical dive and reached a speed of 700 + miles per hour. The plane going into the water at that speed vertically, there would be a very small debris field and a lot of it would be deep.
Like someone said, there is many thousands of square miles of ocean to cover.
There is one thing we must remember. If it was built by man on an assembly line. I can fail.
Quote from: Locutus on August 20, 2010, 07:04:12 PM
This topic is WAY old, and I hesitate to bump it, but I found a very interesting article about the causes of the crash as found by aviation safety experts who examined details of that fateful night. I figured I would post it in case any are interested in reading.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1282367/Air-France-crash-The-truth-disaster-killed-228-people.html
Great update Locutus. Thank you! We rarely get any followup to these events, short of a blurb put out by the NTSB or FAA at the conclusion of their investigations.
Unfortunately, that might be as good as it gets for that one. The black boxes are in the cavernous bottom of the Atlantic ocean.
Quote from: Locutus on June 01, 2009, 01:56:53 PM
There is no radar that far out in a transoceanic flight. :wink:
The only radar is the plane's radar. Adding to the problem; flights are given a path to be on, regardless of weather, and without any traffic control over the broad ocean, they are on their own; not to deviate from course. Stupid.
Quote from: dan foster on September 13, 2010, 11:06:32 PM
The only radar is the plane's radar. Adding to the problem; flights are given a path to be on, regardless of weather, and without any traffic control over the broad ocean, they are on their own; not to deviate from course. Stupid.
Having been a pilot, you have heard the term pilot in command. The pilot is in command of his airplane and he has the final choice to do what he thinks is right to do with his airplane. No one on the ground, in the tower can over rule him on safety.
Except, if you flying a load of illegal drugs over the border and a F-18 is over you, telling you to land. :yes: :biggrin:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/04/03/france.jet.wreckage/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/04/03/france.jet.wreckage/index.html?hpt=T2)
An underwater search within the last 24 hours, has turned up parts to the flight that is the subject of this topic; just shy of two years later!
. . .France's Bureau of Aviation Investigation said that a team, led by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, discovered parts of the aircraft during an underwater search operation conducted within the past 24 hours. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on April 03, 2011, 07:31:01 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/04/03/france.jet.wreckage/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/04/03/france.jet.wreckage/index.html?hpt=T2)
An underwater search within the last 24 hours, has turned up parts to the flight that is the subject of this topic; just shy of two years later!
. . .France's Bureau of Aviation Investigation said that a team, led by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, discovered parts of the aircraft during an underwater search operation conducted within the past 24 hours. . .
. . .The agency did not immediately say what parts of the jet the team found.
Investigators have not yet established what caused the crash, and large parts of the plane -- including both flight recorders -- have never been located, despite an extensive search operation that included a French navy submarine.
The Air France plane went down in stormy weather, and most of the bodies were never recovered.
Studies of the debris and bodies that were found led the BEA to conclude the plane hit the water belly first, essentially intact. Oxygen masks were not deployed, indicating that the cabin did not depressurize, the BEA said in a 2009 report.
Automated messages sent from the plane in the minutes before the crash showed there were problems measuring air speed, investigators have said, though they said that alone was not enough to cause the disaster.
The area where the plane went down is far out in the Atlantic -- two to four days for ships to reach from the nearest ports in Brazil or Senegal in west Africa. The underwater terrain is rough with underwater mountains and valleys, the BEA has said. (Update to same article linked above.)
What they have discovered over the past 48 hours consists of the engine(s), landing gear, and a large portion of the cabin; with bodies still inside.
They are saying they are going to "recover" all of it, including what is left of the bodies. . .
They are using some of the very same technology that was used in discovering and exploring the Titanic shipwreck, etc. . .
Thus far they have not discovered the "black boxes", but I suspect that is eventually going to happen. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on April 04, 2011, 05:42:47 PM
What they have discovered over the past 48 hours consists of the engine(s), landing gear, and a large portion of the cabin; with bodies still inside.
They are saying they are going to "recover" all of it, including what is left of the bodies. . .
They are using some of the very same technology that was used in discovering and exploring the Titanic shipwreck, etc. . .
Thus far they have not discovered the "black boxes", but I suspect that is eventually going to happen. . .
Some years back I took a young F-18 jet fight pilot for a ride in my plane. A 1947 Stinson Voyager tail dragger. Naturally I let him fly it. He showed me some tricks in the plane I never thought it would do.
I ask him what happens if he would lose all electric power in his jet. He just plainly stated that, HE BAILS OUT. He can't control the plane in anyway. The plane is all fly by wire. All of the controls are ran by electricity. I would bet this airliner is the same way, but no one can bail out. :(
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/16/france.jet.crash/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/16/france.jet.crash/index.html?hpt=T2)
They found the flight data recorder and cockpit recorder, and after almost 2 years at 12,700 feet below the oceans surface the data is intact!!!!
They expect to be able to report on their findings, at a high level, within the next two weeks!
(Pics at the above link)
Quote from: Palehorse on May 16, 2011, 07:47:40 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/16/france.jet.crash/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/16/france.jet.crash/index.html?hpt=T2)
They found the flight data recorder and cockpit recorder, and after almost 2 years at 12,700 feet below the oceans surface the data is intact!!!!
They expect to be able to report on their findings, at a high level, within the next two weeks!
(Pics at the above link)
It goes to show you there is no hiding place of earth if the United States is after you, even if you a black box. Do you think that the dumbass raghead could find Osama Bin Laden's body in the ocean. :biggrin:
I made a mistake of putting this post of the Republican's suck topic. I wonder how long it take the Mosquito Hawk will find it. :wink: :smile:
Quote from: The Troll on May 16, 2011, 09:25:22 PM
It goes to show you there is no hiding place of earth if the United States is after you, even if you a black box. Do you think that the dumbass raghead could find Osama Bin Laden's body in the ocean. :biggrin:
I made a mistake of putting this post of the Republican's suck topic. I wonder how long it take the Mosquito Hawk will find it. :wink: :smile:
Yeah, it's the French that are undertaking the current search and recovery operations. . . (I know, who would have thought!?!) :icon_twisted:
Quote from: Palehorse on May 16, 2011, 09:32:34 PM
Yeah, it's the French that are undertaking the current search and recovery operations. . . (I know, who would have thought!?!) :icon_twisted:
You got to be kidding me. THE FRENCH. WOW!
Quote from: The Troll on May 16, 2011, 10:11:55 PM
You got to be kidding me. THE FRENCH. WOW!
I know! Right!?! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on May 17, 2011, 05:36:17 PM
I know! Right!?! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
What did they do, dig up Jacques Cousteau? Now he knew about under water searching, he was good. That hard to say about a lot of Frenchmen. :wink:
That remind me of a story of some French president told the United States to get everything we had in France, out. I can't remember the person. But he said. Does that include all of the American soliders that were killed in France protecting your ass. That ended the conversation. :flag:
Quote from: The Troll on May 17, 2011, 07:11:26 PM
What did they do, dig up Jacques Cousteau? Now he knew about under water searching, he was good. That hard to say about a lot of Frenchmen. :wink:
That remind me of a story of some French president told the United States to get everything we had in France, out. I can't remember the person. But he said. Does that include all of the American soliders that were killed in France protecting your ass. That ended the conversation. :flag:
:food24: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
. . .Four hours and six minutes into the flight, one of the co-pilots, referred to as PF, called the cabin crew, telling them that: "In two minutes we should enter an area where it'll move about a bit more than at the moment, you should watch out... I'll call you back as soon as we're out of it."
The report said that four hours and 10 minutes into the flight: "The autopilot [and] then [the] auto-thrust disengaged," and co-pilot PF said: "I have the controls." The report said the stall warning sounded twice in a row.
A short time later the other co-pilot, referred to as PNF said: "So, we've lost the speeds." A second later the stall warnings sounded again the report said.
At about this time, "The speed displayed on the left side increased sharply," the report said. The aircraft was then at an altitude of about 37,500 feet.
The report said that at this time co-pilot PNF tried several times to call the captain back to the cockpit.
The aircraft then climbed to 38,000 feet and at around four hours 11 minutes and 40 seconds into the flight, the captain re-entered the cockpit. During the following seconds all of the recorded speeds became invalid and the stall warning stopped, the report said.
Co-pilot PF said: "I don't have any more indications," and the co-pilot PNF said "we have no valid indications."
About a minute later co-pilot PF said: "We're going to arrive at level one hundred." This is a height of 10,000 feet. About fifteen seconds later, the data recorder indicate "simultaneous inputs by both pilots on the sidesticks."
The recordings stopped at four hours 14 minutes and 28 seconds into the flight. A full investigation into the crash is expected next year. . .
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/05/27/air.france.447.crash/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/05/27/air.france.447.crash/index.html?hpt=T2)
75 more bodies have been recovered from the sea floor - all victims of this crash - 2 years later.
While I have no dog in this hunt, I tend to agree with those amongst the victims families, who have stated their wish to let their remains stay at the bottom of the sea. . .
I just wonder how much knowledge can be realistically obtained from the remains after all this time has passed, to help explain what transpired ????
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/31/france.jet.crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/31/france.jet.crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)
I am sure the bones have their "tale to tell", however, I am not sure that tale will provide any useful information. . . I may be wrong. . .
Hate to bump this old thread, but upcoming this week:
Report on Air France crash released
France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis will publish its final report on the crash of Air France Flight 447 over the Atlantic Ocean. All 228 people aboard were killed when the plane crashed in stormy weather en route to Paris from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on June 1, 2009.
It took four searches and nearly two years to locate the bulk of the Airbus 330-300's wreckage, still containing many bodies, in a mountain range deep beneath the surface. More than 70 bodies were never recovered.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/01/ahead-of-the-curve-the-next-7-days-88/?hpt=hp_t2
Quote from: Locutus on July 01, 2012, 10:55:18 PM
Hate to bump this old thread, but upcoming this week:
Report on Air France crash released
France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis will publish its final report on the crash of Air France Flight 447 over the Atlantic Ocean. All 228 people aboard were killed when the plane crashed in stormy weather en route to Paris from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on June 1, 2009.
It took four searches and nearly two years to locate the bulk of the Airbus 330-300's wreckage, still containing many bodies, in a mountain range deep beneath the surface. More than 70 bodies were never recovered.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/01/ahead-of-the-curve-the-next-7-days-88/?hpt=hp_t2
Someone I know told me that the accident is a result of a mechanical failure. That the jackscrew that moves the (i may be terming this wrong here) tail flaps stuck, and when they got it straight and level again the crew cycled it again, stripping the threads and sending them into a dive from which they had no control to recover from.
Quote from: Palehorse on July 01, 2012, 11:00:42 PM
Someone I know told me that the accident is a result of a mechanical failure. That the jackscrew that moves the (i may be terming this wrong here) tail flaps stuck, and when they got it straight and level again the crew cycled it again, stripping the threads and sending them into a dive from which they had no control to recover from.
The jackscrew doomed Alaska Airlines Flight 261.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261
I've never heard it mentioned as a possible cause of the Air France disaster.
Quote from: Locutus on July 01, 2012, 11:06:28 PM
The jackscrew doomed Alaska Airlines Flight 261.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261
I've never heard it mentioned as a possible cause of the Air France disaster.
I'm not too confident of the individual who told me that. He's an aviation mechanic in training working where I do for the summer. He said though that one of his instructors was involved in the analysis of the data from the Air France flight, and that's where he heard it. He may be mixing accident information though. . . I can't wait to hear what the actual report says. :yes:
Quote from: Locutus on July 01, 2012, 11:06:28 PM
The jackscrew doomed Alaska Airlines Flight 261.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261
I've never heard it mentioned as a possible cause of the Air France disaster.
The article sounds just like his description to me. I'm now betting he was referring to this flight and not the AIr France flight. . . That picture of the jackscrew looks like what he described to me as well.
Here's a very good read about this Air France crash from a couple of months ago. It's lengthy, but worth the time if you're so inclined.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/9231855/Air-France-Flight-447-Damn-it-were-going-to-crash.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/crashes/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877 (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/crashes/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877)
Yeah, this one sheds a lot of light on what the report will likely say. . .
Quote from: Locutus on July 01, 2012, 11:19:21 PM
Here's a very good read about this Air France crash from a couple of months ago. It's lengthy, but worth the time if you're so inclined.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/9231855/Air-France-Flight-447-Damn-it-were-going-to-crash.html
Yup. Same conclusions that the PM article I posted arrived at, basically. Pilot error.
Holy hell. . . I can just picture that idiot sitting there with the stick pulled back the entire time. . . :spooked: :eek:
Quote from: Palehorse on July 01, 2012, 11:59:19 PM
Yup. Same conclusions that the PM article I posted arrived at, basically. Pilot error.
Holy hell. . . I can just picture that idiot sitting there with the stick pulled back the entire time. . . :spooked: :eek:
I know in a light plane and your at some altitude. You pull back on the yoke and hold it, you will stall the plane and the plane will fall like a brick. This is how you start a spin. Pull the yoke back, hold it, then push full left or right rudder and you got yourself one fine spin. :biggrin: :plane: :para:
Quote from: Palehorse on July 01, 2012, 11:59:19 PM
Yup. Same conclusions that the PM article I posted arrived at, basically. Pilot error.
Holy hell. . . I can just picture that idiot sitting there with the stick pulled back the entire time. . . :spooked: :eek:
That's a private pilot type of error too. Shouldn't have happened. A Pilot 101 class teaches nose down in a stall situation; all the time, and every time.
I was flying a Piper Seneca one time from Key West up to Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport. There were some minor towering cumulus with embedded rain around and to the north of Key West. But at about 15-20 miles out, the weather was clear. I took off out of Key West and was in cloud cover less than 1,000 feet off the ground. Climbing out, the updrafts of towering cumulus pegged the VSI in a climb and the airspeed started dropping, all while rain was pounding on the windshield. I was concentrated on the instruments, and I did what comes naturally. I pushed the yoke forward and maintained a good airspeed. 20 miles or so out, we popped out and had an absolute wall of clouds behind us. It was one of the most beautiful sights I've ever seen flying a plane. Bottom line is, when airspeed is dropping, nose down.
I was flying with a student pilot and he enters a small thunder storm cloud bank while I was taking a nap coming back from Florida. My friend who was sitting in the back seat woke me up. The student pilot, a fellow owner of the plane had put the plane in a small dive. That is some to wake up too in the rain and in a IFR situation of zero visibility. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Interestingly enough, Airbus just announced a new manufacturing facility in the US, in Alabama.
The 600 million dollar facility will produce 40 to 50, A320 aircraft and is expected to bring 1,000 permanent jobs in the state.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/02/news/companies/airbus-factory-alabama/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2 (http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/02/news/companies/airbus-factory-alabama/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2)
Quote from: Locutus on July 02, 2012, 12:56:22 AM
That's a private pilot type of error too. Shouldn't have happened. A Pilot 101 class teaches nose down in a stall situation; all the time, and every time.
I was flying a Piper Seneca one time from Key West up to Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport. There were some minor towering cumulus with embedded rain around and to the north of Key West. But at about 15-20 miles out, the weather was clear. I took off out of Key West and was in cloud cover less than 1,000 feet off the ground. Climbing out, the updrafts of towering cumulus pegged the VSI in a climb and the airspeed started dropping, all while rain was pounding on the windshield. I was concentrated on the instruments, and I did what comes naturally. I pushed the yoke forward and maintained a good airspeed. 20 miles or so out, we popped out and had an absolute wall of clouds behind us. It was one of the most beautiful sights I've ever seen flying a plane. Bottom line is, when airspeed is dropping, nose down.
Piper Seneca, one beautiful twin aircraft. Never got to ride in one. But one day up at our little grass strip airport. We had a Seneca come in for a landing. It sure was running rough. The pilot got out and talked to us guys and said he wasn't going to fly any father until he got someone look at his plane. He call Indianapolis airport and they sent two men out to Anderson where we were out. They check it all over and said that he must have got some bad gas and fowled all of his his plugs.
They replace 24 aircraft spark plugs, changed the fuel filters and put some gas in it and a can of something in the tank. I wonder what they charge him for the labor, 24 plugs and the 70 mile round trip. WOW!
As he was leaving he told us he would give a good fly by. WOW! again., He came down out of the sun wide open about 10ft or less down the strip. Just a streak of blue and white and with a 45 degree pull out and the end of the strip disappearing to the East. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/world/europe/france-air-crash-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/world/europe/france-air-crash-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)
It's official
Pilot error. We knew that was coming.
Quote from: Locutus on July 05, 2012, 12:55:49 PM
Pilot error. We knew that was coming.
:yes: :'( :yes:
Quote from: Locutus on July 05, 2012, 12:55:49 PM
Pilot error. We knew that was coming.
Yup, a million parts in the plane. Nothing could possible way any of the part going bad and causing the crash. It's always the Human, the pilot. :wink: :rolleyes:
Quote from: The Troll on July 05, 2012, 01:26:06 PM
Yup, a million parts in the plane. Nothing could possible way any of the part going bad and causing the crash. It's always the Human, the pilot. :wink: :rolleyes:
When the system is screaming "stall" (75 times during the 30k plus descent) and the "pilot" is pulling back on the stick, it's either human error or stupidity. . .
Yes, there are some engineering issues as well; but most of those surround the transition from the legacy engineering "feel" that pilots have come to rely upon and the elimination of it within the fly by wire system.
Quote from: The Troll on July 05, 2012, 01:26:06 PM
Yup, a million parts in the plane. Nothing could possible way any of the part going bad and causing the crash. It's always the Human, the pilot. :wink: :rolleyes:
Read the report Troll. They flew the plane into the ground. They could have basically done a "hands off" at some point and there's a good likelihood the plane would have corrected itself. The plane could have flown itself better than they did even after the autopilot was disengaged.
Quote from: Locutus on July 05, 2012, 02:03:08 PM
Read the report Troll. They flew the plane into the ground. They could have basically done a "hands off" at some point and there's a good likelihood the plane would have corrected itself. The plane could have flown itself better than they did even after the autopilot was disengaged.
I built a Benson Gyrocopter with the aid of a friend. In the building manual it said that if the copter developed P.I.O (pilot induced oscillations) let go of the stick. :eek:
One day I was flying along, had a gust of wind and the copter started going up in down violently, quite badly. I just took my hands of the stick and the copter straightened right out. If I hadn't stopped the oscillations when I did the rotor could have cut off the copter's tail and my ass would have been grass. :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :eek: :biggrin:
This why I don't like to fly. Not because I'm afraid of flying ... I'm afraid of what idiot may be at the controls. Remember the Air Florida crash into the Potomac River? Despite heavy icing, the idiot pilot decided to take off anyway. He made it as far as the 14th Street Bridge.
Quote from: Olias on July 05, 2012, 02:45:23 PM
This why I don't like to fly. Not because I'm afraid of flying ... I'm afraid of what idiot may be at the controls. Remember the Air Florida crash into the Potomac River? Despite heavy icing, the idiot pilot decided to take off anyway. He made it as far as the 14th Street Bridge.
You know what, that the same feeling I got the first time I got on an airliner after learning to fly. I wonder what we would do if he decided to fly through the storm rather than going around it. Wondered if his balls was bigger than mine. :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: