God sucks!

[Palehorse]

are you dodging my question?   

No, prove my assertion that suicide is a sin according to Christianity wrong. . .

[Exterminator]

how about you simply read first before you answer.....not really that hard of an accomplishment....MOST people have something called commons sense and courtesy.....it was NOT an open statement, it was specifically called out to a particular poster...

nobody CARES what you think....

Public forum...and you can't even spell 'common sense'.

[Henry Hawk]

Now hold on....I simply asked you IF you had any proof to your claim that it was a big conspiracy to control man.....serious question....you have made several statements over the years...and I was just wondering HOW you came to this conclusion and if you had any REAL evidence of it or is it just a theory.

[Palehorse]

Now hold on....I simply asked you IF you had any proof to your claim that it was a big conspiracy to control man.....serious question....you have made several statements over the years...and I was just wondering HOW you came to this conclusion and if you had any REAL evidence of it or is it just a theory.

The "proof" is well documented within history, as I outline within some of the following posts I have made. History itself serves as empirical proof that religion, (all of them), are nothing more than a tool with which to control the masses and that it has been utilized as such, and continues to be utilized as such.

Part 1

The Eternal Struggle

Religion has been (and always will be by all appearances) the best known method for building and wielding personal power and wealth known to humankind. This fact was at the very foundation of the canonization process utilized during the "editing" of the Bible, and has always been the basis for the scare tactics utilized by supposed religious leaders throughout history.  From the power hungry High-Priests of the dark/middle-ages, to the Falwells, Bakers, and zealots of today; money and power have always been the objectives. (Book-ended by the voice of God and the Holy Spirit).

Keep in mind that I consider myself somewhat of a Christian; just not a main-stream version that is so common today. (I became such via attrition. Read on). I've always maintained a level of doubt surrounding the resources and methods utilized in assembling the Holy Bible, and my Christian university education added to this doubt. (Imagine that!) I was brought up a southern Baptist by a fire and brimstone mother. Each Sunday she'd literally have to drag me and my siblings down several city blocks on the south side of Chicago, to the local church for our weekly scare tactic/brain washing session. I spent many a night sleepless and worrying myself sick as a lad, utterly convinced I was doomed to the eternal fire pits of hell just because I was looking at the bra section of the Sears catalog.

I was "saved", as they call it, at a very young age; mostly because I felt it was my only chance for avoiding the fire and brimstone lake of fire that the minister assured us every week awaited us if we did not come forward. I made my way to the pulpit when the call was made, crying, babbling, and pleading to avoid the fires of hell and eternal damnation. (As the oldest my siblings followed with me with their own versions of hysteria. We had talked about it many times and they were just as scared as I was). And a few weeks later I was baptized as additional insurance against this terrible fate. But as soon as I was old enough to have a paper route, (I got 3 of them), I made sure it was for the paper that printed a Sunday edition and lollygagged around in bed just long enough each Sunday morning to ensure I'd have to miss church in order to make my deliveries.

I also consider myself a man of science, and when scientific evidence is presented that contradicts the accepted version(s) of information contained within the scripture, I get real interested, real fast, and for my own selfish and personal reasons. I always did very well within the science courses throughout my schooling and into my higher education as well. It's just a subject I happen to love and have rarely, if ever, found boring or tedious.  To tell the truth a lot of it just seemed to come naturally to me, and a lot of the time I took pride in the fact that I grasped a particular theory or methodology so much quicker than my classmates. I've always felt comfortable in science.

During high school the new minister of my mother's church was a pilot and a musician, and since mom knew I had a higher than average interest in both of these things she took it upon herself to create situations wherein I would have to spend time with this minister. It worked for awhile and actually ended up with my receiving a lot of unofficial flying lessons, and engaging in one on one talks with this minister about things concerning music. It also provided me with a discreet window into this minister and his "true" life outside of the church, and to put it politely he talked the talk, but he was way off in the weeds when it came to walking!

If so called believers were to be required to live as Jesus is to have said they should, most of them would be victimized by the zealots amongst them. Fraternization with thieves, whores, drunks, and addicts; how dare they! Yet these are the very things Jesus is supposed to have done.  These are the "lost" souls among humankind, the wayward sheep the Shepard's are to bring back into the fold . . . but there is no money in that, no power to be gained. Most of the ministers I have been around make it a point to engage in activities that do these things; increase the flock, scare the kool aid out of them, and guilt them into tithing until it hurts, and then tithe some more.

They typically live in homes far and above those the average church member are able to provide for themselves; driving a new Cadillac or Town Car and dressing in some of the best suits available to them at deep discount from those members amongst the flock that were purveyors of such things. And the church was and is always in need of major repairs that are going to cost tens of thousands, or a new one is strongly desired by the "Lord". It usually ends up being a mansion of astounding proportions that requires even more tithing to heat and cool once it is built. 

And while my topic here primarily surrounds Christianity and its myopic view of itself and its self serving purpose, I don't want anyone to think it is just Christianity I am having these problems with. Look at the Middle East; killing each other since before the time of Jesus, since before the book was ever conceived of, and still killing each other today; and all over religious differences when you get right down to it. Some sects feeling religious entitlement to certain portions of land, other sects feeling the same way, and in still other sects you will find that killing itself has become a religious right of sorts, with bastardized versions claiming it as the only means of achieving eternal rewards of various types. The whole situation can be summarized with this short phrase: Humankind- killing each other in the name of religion for centuries.  Organized religion was created and exists for one purpose and one purpose only; to allow a select few to accumulate personal wealth and power. In the eternal struggle for control of the masses, there has never been another tool created to achieve such a high measure of success and longevity in this endeavor. It is one of the reasons why it has been so successful.

Can anybody tell me what God would ever endorse such behavior, such action, such destruction from its own creation as a means with which to obtain favor? And if there were such a God, who in their right mind would ever want to worship such an entity? What would be the purpose of life in such an obscured reality? Kill or be killed? To what end?

Perhaps my comments are far too dramatic for such a controversial subject I admit; however from my perspective organized religion is an entity manufactured by humanity that has been utilized throughout the ages as a means with which to exercise control of the masses, and provide a platform from which to build personal wealth and power.  Jesus himself, (if the words within the bible are to be believed on some level, and I do hold this much to be true for if humankind cared enough to put the words down there had to have been some kind of purpose to it!), cautioned against this and is alleged to have taken several to task for these very actions; yet look around today and it is worse now than it has ever been. And the perpetrators are the leadership amongst them!

Jesus (and I am repeating myself here I am sorry) consorted with the throw away sector of society, provided them hope, lifted them up, showed them the way of life. How is this being done today? How many homeless persons do you see welcomed within your congregations? How many of the addicted, the down-trodden, the helpless are welcomed within the congregations of organized religion and lifted up by its leadership? Few if any you have to admit. Those rare exceptions of individuals that come to the congregation seeking the way, are patronized and most often serve as fodder for the cannons of gossip and judgment exercised by the leadership and congregations nation-wide. This is the reality of organized religion today; a cliquish group of supposed followers of Jesus that regularly lord it over the have not's, and those who question their methods and ways.

The very nature of humankind is greed, and so often throughout history we have seen the conquered adopt the ways of the conquering. (Native Americans and Christianity for example). Now the religions and leaders of the times back then certainly saw how quickly this man was able to amass a strong following. So why not use this to construct a better means of controlling the peoples and bending them to the will of those who hold the power? Use his teachings and mold them in a way that leads them down the desired path? (Don't think the religious leaders of the times were capable of such acts or thoughts. Think of the high priests of the middles ages and the way in which they controlled the Kings by claiming to receive messages from God telling them the King should blah, blah blah).

I have more admiration for the addicted Johnny come lately to religion that stands in rags on the street corners reciting the scriptures, than I do for the seminary graduating pastors who are in the business of fleecing the congregation of their money for the sole purpose of building their material possessions and power. (I met one of these seminary types at a wedding once at a local church. There were several instances wherein I would have liked to pimp slapped his holier than thou insolent face, and taken him down a few notches. But this would have broken the laws of humankind, and served as an insult toward the house of God; thus I held my opinions and intentions to myself). And I would further speculate that the creator does as well. I can feel it in my soul. And you can hear it in Johnny come lately's voice if you will but listen.

Just look at the "power" the COG wields in the Anderson area; you have to ask yourself, is this what the creator intended for his followers to do? I don't think so, not by a long shot. Where is the love? Where is the lifting up? Where is the supposed imitation of the path of Jesus in all of that? I don't see it, and they cannot see the path for being blinded by the desire for power and wealth! You don't buy that Christian leaders can stop anything? Take a look around in Anderson. Read the news. Do you not see what the COG is doing within this very community, the influence it exerts in city politics and planning decisions? The fact is Christian leadership exerts influence and wields its power every day.

The zealots have been conditioned by society and organized religion to accept these things unquestioningly. (And I do not mean that in a bad way either). I too was amongst you, and believed without question. Education, formal and informal, combined with life experiences have served to open my eyes and create the questions that I and many more have to ask. When presented with a situation such as the "Lost Tomb of Jesus", (more on this later), answers must be demanded and arrived at, and the status quo of unconditional acceptance is unacceptable to me personally.

Humankind has proven throughout history that we cannot be trusted, and I am not about to start changing my line of thinking on this right now. The Bible was authored, edited, and produced by humankind. How are we to accept it as unquestionable truth when it is incomplete and assembled at the hand and will of humankind? A humankind that has proven, and continues to prove each and every day, that it is solely motivated by greed; greed for power and wealth.

Part 2

The Tool

Since the beginning of time religion has struggled for control of the people with those who would lead them; from the healers of prehistoric times to tribal leaders, kings, queens, and presidents, the leaders of every religion have wrestled with them for control. During the times before the emergence of Christ and Christianity, the oracles and fortune tellers / astronomers would utilize naturally occurring and predictable astronomical events as signs to the leaders that something they personally wanted done needed to happen. This same methodology was utilized as a means with which to turn the kings and queens of the world into mere puppets of those with the "secret knowledge" they disguised as the ability to hold counsel with the creator. And they took advantage of it to amass personal wealth and power as a means to increase their station in life.

However, it didn't take too long before some of the leadership back then began to figure things out for themselves, by holding counsel with those who possessed new ideas and theories and educating themselves surrounding these things. The old tricks were not what they used to be and these individuals began to lose their grip on the reins of power; and a new way needed to be identified as a means to save themselves.

Along came Jesus Christ and this new idea of Christianity. Now just suppose for a moment, (and I hope you can free up your mind/thought process for long enough to give this some thought) Jesus was nothing more than a man. A man divinely inspired by the creator even works for me. His thoughts and actions, his words, were so revolutionary for the times in which he lived, (Remember, humanity burned "witches" many centuries later and this was after "civilization" had supposedly took hold of the worlds populations), that he was perceived as a threat, an aberration even, by the people of his time. (Some of them anyway. Remember, he did end up on the cross and died at the hands of the "justice" of the times). Yet, amongst the population he struck a chord with many. Some were inspired to follow him, and humanity being humanity, and writers being writers and taking literary license as they usually do, began writing down some of his actions and recording them in the methods of the times.

No doubt some believed so strongly in the things that this man was doing, that they felt compelled to try to bring the point across within the words they placed to "paper", much like the great novelists of the American Wild West days, exaggerating some points to retain the attention of their readers, and hopefully drive home their intended message; that Jesus was onto something here and his teachings were worth passing onto the generations to come. 

Eventually the powers that were in control deemed this man enough of a threat to trump up some charges against him that would enable them to sentence him to his death, and so it was that it came to pass. Only problem was that by the time they had got around to executing him he had developed quite the following, and to make matters worse those within his inner circle had written letters outlining some of his deeds, and lot of his messages. They found themselves unable to quell the movement, much less control those with the information. (Certainly no one back then could even fathom that later generations would take their tales so literally, certainly to the extreme that some do today. And they certainly never could have imagined that science would one day have the ability to identify remains 2,000 years old and even millions of years old.)

As the years passed on the humanity within them came to the forefront, as those within the movement jousted for control of it; greed. That hunger for wealth and power rose to the top and with it began the scheming against each other. Of course after some time those with allegiances to the leaders of the people had infiltrated the movement and someone decided that all this documentation had to be assembled in one place, in order for everyone to better understand the message this man had for humanity.

Thus came about the effort to assemble the books of the "bible" through the editing of the writings of humanity from the times. What a power play this would have been for them. Determine what goes in, what stays out, and make the messages so subjective as to be able to make them say whatever you wish, thus control the people, the power, the wealth for themselves. The "gospels" are only "gospels" because they were deemed as such by the very individuals who edited and assembled them way back in the day. Do I believe there is some truth / value to be had within them, sure I do. But I do not agree with the subjective interpretations and incomplete record that this whole process of editing has left them to be. It gives me reason to doubt, to question, and that is enough.

From my days spent in a Christian University, it is clear that the bible was assembled from a collection of "letters" written by followers of the Christian faith. Parables, they were written by human beings, assembled by other human beings much later on, and magically these same human beings doing the assembly felt they had the authority to exclude anything they felt wasn't in keeping with their personal ideas of what the Christian faith is supposed to mean.

Each of these "letters were written by key figures within the circle of trust that was maintained by Jesus; including a key woman that history has shown was unfairly ostracized within later society and made out to be a whore. The reason for this is clearly obvious if one reads her letters, for they document a relationship with this man Jesus, painting a portrait of him that opposed the path the religion needed to take in order to render to those who assembled these works the personal wealth and power they desired. Moreover, even portions of those letters authored by those included within the completed text contained large portions of such information, and if they were included it would undermine the whole purpose behind this activity! So in their infinite "wisdom" these men that lived centuries after these authors had died, took it upon themselves to edit out everything that went against what they personally felt was the path this religion and its followers were to follow.

What provided them this right to undertake such a ludicrous action? How could they know or understand the true meaning and intention of the writers so many years later, much less know something more than they did surrounding the subject of said writings? They took it upon themselves to decide for humanity the path of the religion moving forward, because the true purpose of this whole activity was to create the new tool required to seize back the control lost when the leadership of the time became enlightened.

The book was assembled to purposely be vague and subjective in interpretation, to allow those who obtain positions of power within the church to wield power over the flock, to bend them to their will, and to allow them to accumulate personal wealth and power over the masses. As it has been utilized throughout history and continues to be. So certainly when empirical evidence is discovered there will be no limit to what can and will be done to obscure it; for it threatens their livelihood!

Throughout the subsequent centuries the leadership of Christianity has waffled upon interpretation of passages, providing explanations that best served their purpose at each time the questions arose; in each instance taking the stance that they are only passing along that which God has provided only to them, by speaking only to them. Placing themselves above all others amongst them and in the position to control and decide what is right and what is wrong.  After all, does not the book clearly document the divine power provided to a man by God, and since it is God he can provide this same power to those chosen by him for eternity!

It is no wonder then that all these centuries later humankind struggles to understand why it is so contradictory, and just how it is that a man can sit down and write a set of letters on the very same subject matter, but have the continuity broken up by the fact that others much later adjudicate certain portions of that writing as incorrect.  How can a man be divinely inspired one moment but not so in the next? Human greed is the answer. To exclude "letters" that document the fact that this same man married, that he had children, and when he was crucified his body was secreted away by those who loved him most, to be later laid to rest within a family tomb, only serve to further cast doubt upon the whole business.

Is it any more of a wonder that centuries after the completion of this book, when physical evidence providing empirical proof that a key foundational element of this book is wrong, is categorically denied and dismissed after a decade of it being hidden away from the world?

Part 3

Creationism Verses Evolution

Science is an effort to understand the world around us, not explain it. Religion likely started out as a means to feed the spiritual needs of humanity, and this morphed into it being (abused) utilized as a tool to control humanity.

A human being is comprised of two parts, physical and spiritual. Our physical bodies are the window of what each of us basically considers "life" here on earth. Our bodies and their various systems work in conjunction to allow us to accomplish things, set goals, achieve them; to basically "experience this thing we call life. However our spirit, or soul if you will, is that part of our makeup that exists eternally; beyond the physical limitations of "life" as we know it here on earth.

Our spirits have always existed and always will, and it is this component of the experience here on earth that I believe to be the other half of the driver behind why religion has become so powerful, so all encompassing, and so vital to such a major portion of humanity around the world. It is my belief that human life does not truly begin until the physical merging of the two entities, our spirit and our physical bodies, that takes place upon the drawing of the first breath. It is at this precise moment that our spirits enter into the physical body that has been awaiting our arrival, and it is at this precise moment that our "life" here on earth begins.

Now while the above statement may hold serious ramifications for a portion of society and in fact elicit a strong opposition to the notions set forth herein, I submit that the lion's share of said opposition can be attributed solely to the collateral damage inflicted upon humanity by the centuries of religious rancor, oppression, and brainwashing; so before you go off on a religious crusade I would appreciate the opportunity to speak my piece here as best I can, so please, take a breath and read on for awhile.

Our spirits do not maintain overall control of our physical being, indeed, it is the experiences and the mentality these experiences create within our minds as we develop physically, that eventually assumes this role within our being while we are here. We are each born with gifts that are equal and far above and beyond that which you may imagine, but due to societal pressure to conform to that which society deems "normal and acceptable", we learn to suppress these gifts; and as we all have learned, that which you do not use you eventually lose.

As we develop physically and mentally, we learn to "forget" or repress our spiritual side; to purposely lose touch with it because unless we do we quickly learn we will be ostracized by society. For the religious among you reading this, think back to the prophets of the bible. The fortune tellers, the folks able to see the future, speak to the dead, and perform other great wonders. Have you ever asked yourself just why it is that these people existed back then and furthermore why it is that if they did indeed exist back then why they are not here now? The answer is that there are many among us who can indeed do these things today, and in fact each of us can still do these things if we would but drop the weight we provide to society in forcing us to repress these skills.

The people today have learned to hide these skills from society in general, and the fact that fakes and charlatans abound only serves to further assist them in obscuring their abilities from anyone they choose. Moreover, you will not find the people with these abilities amongst the fleeced flocks milling about within the organized religions of the world today, because religion serves as the panacea to the spirit, required to quell our spirits crying and need for acknowledgment in a world of physical being.

As with anything "living" nourishment is required in order to sustain life and obtain well being, happiness, and contentment. Despite the daily barrage placed upon our lives by the environment we call earth and our day-to-day "life", our spirits can be felt even today. That unsatisfied feeling of unrest, as if we are missing something, that which drives us to question the purpose of "life", that which drives us to understand life and our surroundings, that which completes us. It is our spirit and it demands attention of us. But since we have repressed this aspect of our lives here, we seek out ways to placate this need as we have done since the beginning of time. Religion plays to this need and for many it has now progressed to the point where it is the only acceptable means of acknowledging our spirits; we have become spiritual sheep to a panacea constructed of lies.

It is this very spiritual need that drives humanity to submit to that for which there can be no explanation within the physical world, to abdicate its own ability to that which is preposterous and clearly unreasonable to those who would but take some time to clearly review.  Society has served to further the cause of religion by deeming anyone displaying any kind of "ability" at first a witch, and eventually ostracizing them when various religions began to frown upon actions like burning at the stake.

The crusades and inquisitions undertaken by early society endorsed torture, maiming, and killing as acceptable means with which to obtain confessions from those who would not accept the basic religious tenants of the time, exasperating the need for humanity to repress the spiritual side of our being, to hide it away never to see the light of day again. And all in the name of Christianity and religion, untold numbers of human beings are put to the fire, steel, and grave; and the purveyors of such deeds proudly display the sign of the cross upon their armor, flags, and crests while doing so, claiming the support of God for their actions.

Put yourselves in the place of the people who endured such acts of insanity; imagine if you will that all of sciences contributions to the world as we know it today are no longer in existence. Imagine your neighbors, your relatives, and your people being slaughtered in the name of some religion and man who you had never heard of before. Imagine being forced to accept this religion or die. There is no government but your King or leader, and there is no other way of life but that which has been provided since the day of your birth. Then these people arrive. If you cannot imagine back that far, then try imagining yourself a Native American; can what they endured be anything different, any less horrifying, any less wrong?

(To be continued. . .)

Creationism Verses Evolution (Continued)

Throughout history the struggle for control of the masses has been undertaken on many fronts, not the least of which is science. Science and the church have waged a century's long conflict which clearly demonstrates the lengths to which religious leadership will go in the cause of preserving their golden goose. Not only have some of the great men and women of science had humankind to struggle with, but the threat to their very livelihoods that materialized each time a milestone achievement was arrived at. I shall forego most of these insidious incidents in an effort to spare each of us the history lesson, except for one; evolution.

Along came a man named Charles Darwin and in 1859 he authored a book on his perspectives/theories "On the Origin of Species" , ( when book-ended with the work of Gregor Mendel, an Augustinian priest and scientist, during the mid 1800's serve as  provisional  cornerstones for modern evolutional theory), and from its publication provided science with the impetus to investigate and validate his biological theories. Through the years science has done just that and with it identified, in theory supported in large part by empirical proof, how living things have evolved into the various species that modern humankind has come to identify.

Everything was going along fairly well, with only marginal objection being put forth from the religious leadership until it came to man himself and the theory that we evolved from apes; there the church drew a line in the sand. Once science was able to validate the theory that some 8 million years ago approximately a dozen hominid species emerged from the apes, and at least one of these species represented modern man, the church once again broke out the hardware and began imposing its influence upon our government, education, and science itself.

From the onset as the theory of evolution was supported within an ever increasing sector of the scientific community, the religious leadership undertook a massive propaganda campaign that utilized its centuries of preconditioning of the masses as a lever with which to censor scientists, educators, as well as the educational system itself; at various points subjecting its supporters to public trials that placed their very freedom in jeopardy. All of this indicative of the threat religion considered it due to the fact that, from their perspective, it provided empirical proof that could potentially disprove the historical / traditional teachings and beliefs of the church.

Once again the battle flags of science and religion were fluttering in the discourse of the ongoing conflict between these two, and so it continues to this very day with the lines being drawn and the eternal struggle continuing. The church steadfastly refusing to consider what science can prove to be truth, and science frustrated by centuries of offhand dismissal and public propaganda campaigns that in reality are nothing more than bluster; a paper tiger whose bite is only present due to the preconditioning of the very species that is controlled by them. All of this has served to blind both science and the church to any possibility of a blend of both perspectives, and so that path has yet to be seriously explored by more than perhaps a handful of individuals that may very well share my own perspective on the possibility to varying degrees. 

Religion and I don't care which one you want to use as an example, for the most part is premised on the fact that there is a God, and that God created this place in which we exist, the universe in which it exists, and everything else. There are many among us that believe this is not true, or believe it to be true to varying degrees and not necessarily with the religious fervor of the zealot either. Personally I believe in a creator and I find it very hard to conceptualize this place, this universe, and all that exists not having a creator. Perhaps this is due to the fact I am human and everything in my experience has been or has to be created; or perhaps it is my eternal spirit that assures me it is so, I don't really know. And I can provide no empirical proof to the scientist in me to prove that my belief or faith if you will, in the fact that there is a creator is fact. None the less, I believe it to be true and so must accept it.  For the moment let us just stipulate that there is a creator and leave it at that.

Traditional Christian belief is that all of these things came to be as they are outlined within the book of Genesis in its bible.  Science does not endorse "say it and it is so" methodology and rejects that for which there is no proof, and through the centuries of scientific achievement has come to discover that which they believe to be the source for the start of all life and the universe/space; the big bang. The Christian religion rejects anything that does not support a text / letter written thousands of years ago, and despite scientific proof supporting the big bang theory they refuse to acknowledge it to be factual because it represents a natural event and can be explained.

If a fire occurs on your lawn one day the first thing you are going to do is put it out, then you are going to try to figure out how it got started aren't you? I mean, the grass didn't spontaneously combust! Someone threw a cigarette on it, lightening struck it, a vehicle backfired; there has to be a source of origin for the fire right?  Your entire life and the sum of all of your experiences tells you that this is the case for each and every event that transpires each day, something, someone initiates what happens or what you experience, right? Even in nature this is true, as well as the laws of physics. Now extend this line of fact toward the formation of the universe. Even if you believe that it was all created by God, do you really believe that, (in the words of that ancient author), that the creator desired it and it was "so"? What does "so" mean?

Keeping in mind that when that author put those words down he had no conception of the laws of physics, he had no idea there was such a thing as space, the universe, time, and a virtual cornucopia of physical facts and laws that we today accept as matter of fact. To him disease was a punishment, as were floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, insect/rodent/vermin infestation and anything else that negatively impacted his life. My personal opinion is that when these words were written they merely documented the philosophy of a man musing on how all that was came to be, but here I will stipulate to the idea that the creator performed the act of creation. He/she desired to create that which we know, and the act ensued, but I do not accept that it was miraculously then "so".

Now let's incorporate a little scientific evidence into the story, because it is after all thousands of years later, we have evolved as a species, (or progressed if you prefer), and we know a lot more about everything. Tornadoes, hurricanes, rat infestations, all have explainable and documented reasons for their occurrences and we no longer have to sacrifice our first born or a neighbor in order to prevent ourselves from worrying about them.

So the creator creates, then what happens? Within the infinity that we now identify as space a huge bang transpires. The creator thinks/says that they want a universe and BAM!, chemical reactions happen, matter forms, dust emits from infinity and through time, (and I'll get to this subject later), the galaxies, planets, stars, and everything else form. In the creator's infinite and stipulated to wisdom, they await just the right moment within this process to identify a place within all they have created, including light, to create life.

"Let there be life". And from this act/statement/will begins the evolutionary process that eventually results in the emergence of modern man and his lust, greed, and eternal drive for power over all that is; and his need to understand everything.

Now we're pretty resourceful and some of us have some very vivid imaginations, (case in point, I know), and as we grown and struggled throughout this process we've created some wonderful things, done some terrible things, written about them, and along the way lost touch with our true selves, abdicating that which we are for that which civilization and society say we must be. There are rogues amongst us as history has shown, but we have survived and progressed as a species in most respects as is evident by the fact we are still here.

So what is the problem then? Control, greed, and lust for personal wealth and power. Why can it not be possible for what I have presented herein to be true? Why cannot science and religion accept that at the end of the day both of them may be right to varying degrees? Are the big bang and evolution the result of a creator's will or desire to create, and all that science has proven a direct result of this action?

I strongly suspect that as each of us reach our expiration dates for the physical bodies we occupy, and once again return to the eternal, spiritual beings that we truly are, we will look back upon all of this in disappointment concerning our understanding of it all. We let our desires for superiority over one another obscure our very purpose and origin to the point of erasing them altogether from our collective consciousness, and neglect that which is of the utmost importance to it all; our spirits and their growth. Our purpose is likely to be the addition of physical experience with which to better arm our spiritual being for a higher level of understanding, but of what?

(Next Up – The time conflict)

http://theunknownzone.us/smf/index.php?topic=13389.30

[Palehorse]

From the bible itself, passages implying that suicide is a sin:

(1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV) [19] Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; [20] you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

(1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV) [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God&'s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

(Psalm 39:4 NIV) Show me, O LORD, my life's end and the number of my days; let me know how fleeting is my life.

(Psalm 139:15-16 NIV) [15] My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, [16] your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

The Bible records seven suicides:

Abimelech
Judges 9:52-54    Abimelech lacked personal identity.

Samson
Judges 16:25-30    Samson died for a cause he believed in and for revenge.

Saul
1 Samuel 31:4    Saul was stressed out, unable to live up to certain expectations; felt rejected and a failure

Saul's armor-bearer
1 Samuel 31:5    Impulse, he wanted to die with his boss. 40% of teenage suicide is impulse.

Ahithophel
2 Samuel 17:23    Ahithophel was bitter because his advice was not followed.

Zimri
1 Kings 16:15-20    Rebellion; Zimri had a problem with authority.

Judas
Matthew 27:3-5    Depressed, Judas felt trapped by materialism and guilt.

[Henry Hawk]

Wow! PH.........you GOT to find a job, utilizing your "God" given talent (    ) .  I have printed this off, and I am going to digest this further....I do NOT have time to read this in full today.  Btw, I have read this before, but I have always gotten interupted during my reading of it.  You do an unbelievable job of expressing your thoughts.  Off the cuff, I do NOT agree with them, but I have a desirve to give you MY true response to these writings... (which should be in a book on the shelves at the book stores across America)... 

Give me a few days to put my thoughts to words and I will respond.

[Palehorse]

From the bible itself, passages implying that suicide is a sin:

(1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV) [19] Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; [20] you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

(1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV) [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God&'s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

(Psalm 39:4 NIV) Show me, O LORD, my life's end and the number of my days; let me know how fleeting is my life.

(Psalm 139:15-16 NIV) [15] My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, [16] your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

The Bible records seven suicides:

Abimelech
Judges 9:52-54    Abimelech lacked personal identity.

Samson
Judges 16:25-30    Samson died for a cause he believed in and for revenge.

Saul
1 Samuel 31:4    Saul was stressed out, unable to live up to certain expectations; felt rejected and a failure

Saul's armor-bearer
1 Samuel 31:5    Impulse, he wanted to die with his boss. 40% of teenage suicide is impulse.

Ahithophel
2 Samuel 17:23    Ahithophel was bitter because his advice was not followed.

Zimri
1 Kings 16:15-20    Rebellion; Zimri had a problem with authority.

Judas
Matthew 27:3-5    Depressed, Judas felt trapped by materialism and guilt.

And here from the book itself, is acknowledgment that the very thing I am saying was known to them:

(Rom. 7:15, 18 - 20) International Version
 
I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. . .I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 


Romans 7:15-18-20 (King James Version)

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So in a nutshell they explain away the human nature to seek out personal wealth and power by saying it is sin that drives it. . . Doesn't this then make every single one of the present church leadership guilty of sin?

[Henry Hawk]

YES, if it is personal wealth and power that they are seeking....

[Palehorse]

YES, if it is personal wealth and power that they are seeking....

Is not the desire to obtain control over a woman or man's body, possessions, income, labor, and life seeking to build for one's self wealth and power? If not to what end does man/woman undertake such action?

[Henry Hawk]

I have NO dispute that MAN is one greedy SOB.....always was and always will be.....and of course you aleady know that we are ALL sinners, despite ANYTHING....so, excuse me if I am missing your point.

It is my opinion, that man could NOT have compiled such a collection of books, that was written from ALL aspects of life and time, merely for wealth and power....there is too much continutiy for man to form such  a perfect Book.

[Palehorse]

Wow! PH.........you GOT to find a job, utilizing your "God" given talent (    ) .  . .

Let me reiterate that I do in fact believe there is a "God", just not the one of human creation; with the hellfire eternal damnation and "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy at its core.

Augustine's great puzzle sums it up best for me:

1. If God is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), and perfectly good, then there can be no evil because:
a) being all-powerful, he could do something about any existing evil,
b) being all knowing he would know about any existing evil, and
c) being perfectly good, he would want to eliminate any existing evil.
2. But there is evil.
3. Therefore God is either:
a) not all powerful (he can't do anything about the evil), or
b) not all knowing (he could do something if he only knew about it), or
c) not perfectly good ( he does know and could do something, but he doesn't care), or
d) some combination of a,b, and c.

And on "Free Will"

"For by the evil use of free choice man has destroyed both himself and it. For as one kills himself, certainly by being alive kills himself, but by killing himself ceases to live and can have no power to restore himself to life after the killing; so when sin was committed by free choice, sin became the victor and free choice was lost."

In other words it left the building when Adam and Eve munched on that apple. . .

. . .

It is my opinion, that man could NOT have compiled such a collection of books, that was written from ALL aspects of life and time, merely for wealth and power....there is too much continutiy for man to form such  a perfect Book.

But only perfect to those whose perceptions of it are driven by the leadership and their iinterpretations of it. To those who take a scholarly approach toward the book, it is far from perfect, vague, and very contradictory.

For example, lets go back to my original question; "Is suicide a sin according to Christians?"

The answer to that question depends entirely upon the perspective of the individual interpreting the words of the book, it's perceived implications and intention. In fact do a little digging and you'll find the Catholic Church does indeed consider it a mortal sin, bad enough to damned you to hell for eternity. In fact they will not even perform the ceremony of funeral for a catholic who commits the act, will not allow burial of the remains within consecrated ground, and their very name will be stricken from the membership rolls.

Ask other sects of Christianity that question and you will get answers that waffle between no, yes, and everything in between; along with a sermon to attempt to sway you toward attending their church. Think I'm lying? Google the question and see what you get!

[Palehorse]

And for those who hold the opinion that I am wrong surrounding the view of the Catholic Church on the subject of suicide, I present my source:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

The Vatican itself! Funny hat wearing guy and all! 

[dan foster]

Anne, For what it is worth......it is pointless to discuss THIS issue with THESE guys....THERE is absolutly NOTHING you can say to defend anything Christian, that they would agree with...ALL Christians, are stupid and wrong...I have been down this road several times, and they do not have ANY interest in understanding what being a Christian means...they have drawn their OWN conclusions, and that is it.

by the way, you make a very good point....and I agree with you.

Wow, what a conclusion you hold; I was a christian.  Was I stupid and wrong?  Perhaps, but more likely brainwashed as I am sure you were.  Do I understatnd what it is to be a christian?  Yes, been there done that.  Sorry we can't agree with you and me as, unlike you, WE HAVE DRAWN OUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.  If you had done the same, you wouldn't be a christian.  You have drawn someone else's conclusions and are sticking to them, that's all.  You don't really have your own beliefs as you were TOLD EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.  You won't agree with that, but like myself and many, many others, if you studied christianity/bible to its logical conclusion, you wouldn't be still under its influence.

[dan foster]

Now hold on....I simply asked you IF you had any proof to your claim that it was a big conspiracy to control man.....serious question....you have made several statements over the years...and I was just wondering HOW you came to this conclusion and if you had any REAL evidence of it or is it just a theory.

I realize those papists aren't christians, to you, but there are volumes on their work in controlling humans and gov'ts.  You must know that.  If that doesn't work, how about the church of england; you know, the ones we held up as how religion should never own the gov't as forbidden in our Constitution.

[Anne]

Wow, what a conclusion you hold; I was a christian.  Was I stupid and wrong?  Perhaps, but more likely brainwashed as I am sure you were.  Do I understatnd what it is to be a christian?  Yes, been there done that.  Sorry we can't agree with you and me as, unlike you, WE HAVE DRAWN OUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.  If you had done the same, you wouldn't be a christian.  You have drawn someone else's conclusions and are sticking to them, that's all.  You don't really have your own beliefs as you were TOLD EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.  You won't agree with that, but like myself and many, many others, if you studied christianity/bible to its logical conclusion, you wouldn't be still under its influence.

If, as you say, you were a Christian, do you reject all Christian principles, or do you pick and choose?