God sucks!

[Locutus]

 `Gospel of wealth' facing scrutiny

By ERIC GORSKI, AP Religion Writer Thu Dec 27, 2:56 PM ET

The message flickered into Cindy Fleenor's living room each night: Be faithful in how you live and how you give, the television preachers said, and God will shower you with material riches.
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And so the 53-year-old accountant from the Tampa, Fla., area pledged $500 a year to Joyce Meyer, the evangelist whose frank talk about recovering from childhood sexual abuse was so inspirational. She wrote checks to flamboyant faith healer Benny Hinn and a local preacher-made-good, Paula White.

Only the blessings didn't come. Fleenor ended up borrowing money from friends and payday loan companies just to buy groceries. At first she believed the explanation given on television: Her faith wasn't strong enough.

"I wanted to believe God wanted to do something great with me like he was doing with them," she said. "I'm angry and bitter about it. Right now, I don't watch anyone on TV hardly."

All three of the groups Fleenor supported are among six major Christian television ministries under scrutiny by a senator who is asking questions about the evangelists' lavish spending and possible abuses of their tax-exempt status.

The probe by Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, has brought new scrutiny to the underlying belief that brings in millions of dollars and fills churches from Atlanta to Los Angeles — the "Gospel of Prosperity," or the notion that God wants to bless the faithful with earthly riches.

All six ministries under investigation preach the prosperity gospel to varying degrees.

Proponents call it a biblically sound message of hope. Others say it is a distortion that makes evangelists rich and preys on the vulnerable. They say it has evolved from "it's all right to make money" to it's all right for the pastor to drive a Bentley, live in an oceanside home and travel by private jet.

"More and more people are desperate and grasping at straws and want something that will alleviate their pain or financial crisis," said Michael Palmer, dean of the divinity school at Regent University, founded by Pat Robertson. "It's a growing problem."

The modern-day prosperity movement can largely be traced back to evangelist Oral Roberts' teachings. Roberts' disciples have spread his theology and vocabulary (Roberts and other evangelists, such as Meyer, call their donors "partners.") And several popular prosperity preachers, including some now under investigation, have served on the Oral Roberts University board.

Grassley is asking the ministries for financial records on salaries, spending practices, private jets and other perks. The investigation, coupled with a financial scandal at ORU that forced out Roberts' son and heir, Richard, has some wondering whether the prosperity gospel is facing a day of reckoning.

While few expect the movement to disappear, the scrutiny could force greater financial transparency and oversight in a movement known for secrecy.

Most scholars trace the origins of prosperity theology to E.W. Kenyon, an evangelical pastor from the first half of the 20th century.

But it wasn't until the postwar era — and a pair of evangelists from Tulsa, Okla. — that "health and wealth" theology became a fixture in Pentecostal and charismatic churches.

Oral Roberts and Kenneth Hagin — and later, Kenneth Copeland — trained tens of thousands of evangelists with a message that resonated with an emerging middle class, said David Edwin Harrell Jr., a Roberts biographer. Copeland is among those now being investigated.

"What Oral did was develop a theology that made it OK to prosper," Harrell said. "He let Pentecostals be faithful to the old-time truths their grandparents embraced and be part of the modern world, where they could have good jobs and make money."

The teachings took on various names — "Name It and Claim It," "Word of Faith," the prosperity gospel.

Prosperity preachers say that it isn't all about money — that God's blessings extend to health, relationships and being well-off enough to help others.

They have Bible verses at the ready to make their case. One oft-cited verse, in Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians, reads: "Yet for your sakes he became poor, that you by his poverty might become rich."

Critics acknowledge the idea that God wants to bless his followers has a Biblical basis, but say prosperity preachers take verses out of context. The prosperity crowd also fails to acknowledge Biblical accounts that show God doesn't always reward faithful believers, Palmer said.

The Book of Job is a case study in piety unrewarded, and a chapter in the Book of Hebrews includes a litany of believers who were tortured and martyred, Palmer said.

Yet the prosperity gospel continues to draw crowds, particularly lower- and middle-income people who, critics say, have the greatest motivation and the most to lose. The prosperity message is spreading to black churches, attracting elderly people with disposable incomes, and reaching huge churches in Africa and other developing parts of the world.

One of the teaching's attractions is that it doesn't dwell on traditional Christian themes of heaven and hell but on answering pressing concerns of the here and now, said Brian McLaren, a liberal evangelical author and pastor.

But the prosperity gospel, McLaren said, not only preys on the hope of the vulnerable, it puts too much emphasis on individual success and happiness.

"We've pretty much ignored what the Bible says about systemic injustice," he said.

The checks and balances central to Christian denominations are largely lacking in prosperity churches. One of the pastors in the Grassley probe, Bishop Eddie Long of suburban Atlanta, has written that God told him to get rid of the "ungodly governmental structure" of a deacon board.

Some ministers hold up their own wealth as evidence that the teaching works. Atlanta-area pastor Creflo Dollar, who is fighting Grassley's inquiry, owns a Rolls Royce and multimillion-dollar homes and travels in a church-owned Learjet.

In a letter to Grassley, Dollar's attorney calls the prosperity gospel a "deeply held religious belief" grounded in Scripture and therefore a protected religious freedom. Grassley has said his probe is not about theology.

But even some prosperity gospel critics — like the Rev. Adam Hamilton of 15,000-member United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in suburban Kansas City, Mo. — say that the investigation is entering a minefield.

"How do you determine how much money a minister like this is able to make when the basic theology is that wealth is OK?" said Hamilton, an Oral Roberts graduate who later left the charismatic movement. "That gets into theological questions."

There is evidence of change. Joyce Meyer Ministries, for one, enacted financial reforms in recent years, including making audited financial statements public.

Meyer, who has promised to cooperate fully with Grassley, issued a statement emphasizing that a prosperity gospel "that solely equates blessing with financial gain is out of balance and could damage a person's walk with God."

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[Locutus]

God's children doin' the best they know how.

[Henry Hawk]

Of course, I know what's coming. 

Curious question.................not being sarcastic.........what do you think IS coming?  after death?....

[Locutus]

I'm not Dan, but I'll tell you what's coming.  Nothing.  Squat.  You're as dead as a tree, dog, cat, bird, or any other biological life form.

The only reason certain among us fabricate god, other deities, reincarnation, etc., is because our brains are capable of contemplating mortality, and the majority of us aren't comfortable that the end is simply that.  The end. 

[Palehorse]

I'm not Dan, but I'll tell you what's coming.  Nothing.  Squat.  You're as dead as a tree, dog, cat, bird, or any other biological life form.

The only reason certain among us fabricate god, other deities, reincarnation, etc., is because our brains are capable of contemplating mortality, and the majority of us aren't comfortable that the end is simply that.  The end. 

Here is where we part ways in our philosophies Locutus. I tend to believe that the creator does indeed exist on some level, and life goes on minus the physical / biological amenities; which are what makes life attractive and desirable.

I look at life as a platue of spiritual development; a phase within our spiritual growth if you will. In order to experience some of the aspects of spiritual growth you must first experience  some of the physical / emotional aspects of biological life. These experiences provide growth opportunity for the soul that cannot be obtained any other way.

Organized religion is just humankind's creation in order to justify a means with which to control the masses and obtain wealth and power over the masses. It is not what the creator would have us waste our precious time here pursuing.

[dan foster]

Here is where we part ways in our philosophies Locutus. I tend to believe that the creator does indeed exist on some level, and life goes on minus the physical / biological amenities; which are what makes life attractive and desirable.

I look at life as a platue of spiritual development; a phase within our spiritual growth if you will. In order to experience some of the aspects of spiritual growth you must first experience  some of the physical / emotional aspects of biological life. These experiences provide growth opportunity for the soul that cannot be obtained any other way.

You would enjoy the movie ONE LAST THING..., as it hints at "the next level".  I like the movie because the central character is a realist and goes out with a smile on his face 

[Palehorse]

You would enjoy the movie ONE LAST THING..., as it hints at "the next level".  I like the movie because the central character is a realist and goes out with a smile on his face 

I love movies. I'll check this one out Dan. 
Is it out on DVD or HD/Dvd?

[Bo D]

I'm not Dan, but I'll tell you what's coming.  Nothing.  Squat.  You're as dead as a tree, dog, cat, bird, or any other biological life form.

Let's think about this for a minute! What happens to the atoms and molecules that make up your body? Do they not go on and become part of other living beings? In fact, isn't this process going on right now even before we die, as we slough off skin cells and the like?

We are all connected to each other and to the Earth in this way. We are stardust!

[Palehorse]

Let's think about this for a minute! What happens to the atoms and molecules that make up your body? Do they not go on and become part of other living beings? In fact, isn't this process going on right now even before we die, as we slough off skin cells and the like?

We are all connected to each other and to the Earth in this way. We are stardust!

Indeed Bo! Indeed! 

[Locutus]

Let's think about this for a minute! What happens to the atoms and molecules that make up your body? Do they not go on and become part of other living beings? In fact, isn't this process going on right now even before we die, as we slough off skin cells and the like?

We are all connected to each other and to the Earth in this way. We are stardust!

That part I'll go with. 

[dan foster]

I love movies. I'll check this one out Dan. 
Is it out on DVD or HD/Dvd?

I stumbled across it on cable (not sure which channel).  It is a 2005 movie.  Very funny, tragic, and probably dissed by all the reviewers at the time....

http://imdb.com/title/tt0452660/


It is on DVD, as well:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F4RHAM/imdb-adbox/

[Palehorse]

I stumbled across it on cable (not sure which channel).  It is a 2005 movie.  Very funny, tragic, and probably dissed by all the reviewers at the time....

http://imdb.com/title/tt0452660/


It is on DVD, as well:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F4RHAM/imdb-adbox/

TYVM sir! 

[Locutus]

And the evidence just keeps rolling and rolling in.  God's returned to his barbarous O.T. ways.   

Hot off the press:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cop: Suspect says God made him kill, cook girlfriend

TYLER, Texas (AP) -- Friends and family of a 21-year-old who police say was killed and mutilated by her boyfriend struggle to put aside the grisly details of her death.

"You can't sleep. You can't think straight anymore," said Amy Gage, a friend and neighbor of the victim, Jana Shearer. "Then you just keep finding out more and more. It's the most difficult thing anyone can go through."

Shearer's boyfriend, Christopher Lee McCuin, 25, was charged with capital murder after police said they found her body, an ear boiling in a pot on a stovetop, and a hunk of flesh with a fork in it on a plate at the crime scene.

McCuin, wearing a jail-issue red jumpsuit, was not asked to enter a plea as he appeared before state District Judge Jack Skeen Jr. on Monday. Skeen continued McCuin's bond at $2 million and appointed an attorney to represent him.

Authorities said McGuin's comments in a 911 call that alerted them to the hideous discovery led them to believe he may have intended to eat his girlfriend's remains, but said it is unclear whether McCuin consumed any part of her body.

Smith County Sheriff Lt. Larry Wiginton told the Tyler Morning Telegraph that McCuin told investigators that God made him kill Shearer.

"When he said God told him to do it, one of the investigators looked at him and just said, 'What did you say?"' according to Wiginton.

The judge sealed the arrest and search warrant affidavits and issued a gag order in the case, which has shocked this East Texas town about 110 miles east of Dallas.

Gage said McCuin and Shearer had only been dating a few months. She remembered Shearer as an unflappably happy friend who had a knack for making her neighbors laugh.

"We really want to focus on her being a person who loved life, and not what happened to her," Gage said. "It was such a tragedy. We have to try to focus on the fact that Jana was a good person."

Officials believe Shearer was taken by McCuin from her home late Friday night and killed. Authorities said McCuin then drove to his estranged wife's home, where he stabbed William Veasley, 42. His condition was unavailable on Monday night.

McCuin was still at his estranged wife's home when deputies arrived, but he jumped into his car and escaped after a short chase, said Smith County Sheriff J.B. Smith.
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McCuin wasn't seen again until Saturday morning, when he arrived at the home he shared with his mother and called her into the garage so she could "come see what he had done," Smith said.

His mother and her boyfriend saw the remains of Shearer, authorities said. McCuin's mother and her boyfriend fled the home and flagged down a police officer. McCuin dialed 911 after they left and told an emergency dispatcher he had killed Shearer and was boiling her body parts, Smith said.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/08/texas.slaying.ap/index.html

[bevis]

well it seems like god may have been up to no good here.  but this guy might not be telling the truth about who made him kill and eat his girlfriend.

[followsthewolf]

Prolly da debbil.