Should the US Continue Off Shore Drilling Despite The Spill?

[me]

I can't really speak to the elitist mindset of some individuals, but the way I see it, it's really not that different than someone who automatically assumes that someone with higher education is a dummy.


I honestly don't think that applies to you, Troll. If anything, you come across as fair. But if they talk the talk, they'd better walk the walk and I totally agree with you.

I'm just saying that it's not a good idea to make assumptions of someone's intellect ot ability based on higher education or lack thereof.

For example, Bush graduated from Yale and Harvard (MBA) Bill Gates did not graduate from Harvard.

My point was really directed at me, who made a typical blanket statement regarding people with degrees.

That was not a blanket statement that was a statement made regarding this situation.  You read way more into the statement than was intended and started sniping instantly.  I, like Troll, have  known this to happen more than once and it frustrates those of us who have seen it happen more than once to people we know or experienced it first hand.  To further the frustration I have also known the engineer to then take the idea from the worker and use it as though it were their own and take all the credit. 

[Sandy Eggo]

There's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.

There's NO shame in ignorance. We're all ignorant on some subject or the other, however, I think the key here is the ability to learn. Regardless of higher education or not, it's the ability and willingness to learn something new which makes the difference.

Stupid can't be fixed.

I believe a person with a degree indicates the ability to learn, but it's still up to the individual as to if they're willing or not.  The fact that someone doesn't have a degree doesn't mean that they can't learn, but willingness is still a key factor in the ability to.

Stupid people generally can't or are unwilling to try.

No "me", I didn't read too much into your comment. Your contempt for those considered educated is clear.

[me]

It is not a contempt for higher education I have but the attitude of some who have the education that I find offensive.

[Sandy Eggo]

Believe it or not, I understand, but in reverse. I feel contempt for those who have the ability and are without the willingness to learn.

This isn't directed at you, but more-or-less piggybacking on FTW's comment. Those are the type of people who are too lazy to imrpove their minds, but yet have plenty of energy to complain about those who did, as if learning and growing is a negative thing.

[Sandy Eggo]

Sorry, I got us off topic.

Back to "me's" original comment.

I hope that BP is considering suggestions from all sources, because everything they've tried so far isn't working.

[me]

Believe it or not, I understand, but in reverse. I feel contempt for those who have the ability and are without the willingness to learn.

This isn't directed at you, but more-or-less piggybacking on FTW's comment. Those are the type of people who are too lazy to imrpove their minds, but yet have plenty of energy to complain about those who did, as if learning and growing is a negative thing.

Some people do not care to learn something just because they have the ability because that may not be what they want have a desire to learn and you can't fault them for that.  Why go to college for something you don't care to learn even though you might have the ability?  Not all who chose not to go to college are lazy.

[The Troll]

To my way of thinking all a degree does is document that an individual can set a goal and work consistently over a period of time to achieve it. Period.

Whether they can take a given curriculum and apply it toward everyday and/or professional life is another matter entirely, and obtaining a degree in no way assures anyone's ability to do so. Moreover, obtaining a degree within a given discipline in no way locks one into a particular career path either.

My personal opinion is that engineers can typically adopt an exclusive attitude toward the task and the hiring process. (Especially if they are from Purdue).  It does not make them right, but in their own minds they are never wrong either, and that is the problem.

Some of the best engineers I have ever had the pleasure of working with, knew from experience that their best resource toward the development of an engineered solution for any problem encountered, was the people in the trenches working in the impacted area(s) each and every day. And they drank from that well deeply and regularly.  I don't suppose this oil spill situation is any different in that regard. . .

  Palehorse,  you layed it pretty damn good.  I have work with some excellent engineers.  One that really stood out was from Ford World Headquarters, he was super and we worked like a team for weeks.

  But let me tell you about one engineer from Purdue.  I worked in the Rehab Crib, we took machines off the floor that had been running 24 hours a day for years.  We would tear these machines down to their base and build it back better than new, fixing the builtin problems when the machine was built.

  We will call him Jim.  Jim graduated for Purdue and had been working as a school maintainace man for a year before he got on at Ford.  In his own mind he was a genius.

  Well, one day he brings me three valve for to me to install on three electronic welders.  He told me where to install them.  I told  him they wouldn't work that way and explained in detail way they wouldn't work.  I told him I didn't want to install them.  Well, the told me he thought they would and gave me a direct order to install them, because he was the boss on the Job.

  Well, it took me all day to do the job.  Since I knew they wouldn't work, I fixed them so all I had to do was take six couplings apart and then I could put the old stuff back in place.

  On the way out of work I passed him and he said, I see that you got the valve in and they are working.  See you tomorrow.  The next morning when I walk in, he's standing next to my tool box doing a little jig.  I said they didn't work did they.  He said hell no, we almost burn up a half a million dollars worth of welders.  I said, well what are we going to do.  He said first of all you're going to put them back the way the were.

  I said no I not, not with out an apology.  I'm not going to give you a damn apology.  Yes your are, or I'm going to get your boss, the plant engineer and show him what you made me do, after I told you they wouldn't work.  He sorta had a sick look on his face and putting his head on my shoulder said, I'm sorry, can't we just get along.

  I said, god damn it Jim you know I don't like to do something wrong let alone do it twice, this is going to take me all day to fix your mess.  Well, I went down took loose six couplings and put it back the way it was.  Then going a little malicious disobedience, I hid out the rest of the day.  As I was getting ready to go home, he came back and said I see  you got the machines running, good job.  I said, is production happy, he said yes,  I said are you happy, he said yes.  I said good, I'm happy too.  In my mind I said, chalk one up for the dumb skill tradesman.

  Jim and I work off and on for five more years and we got along really good, we talk over every job and he never gave me a DIRECT ORDER again.

[followsthewolf]

  Hey, old man your college education is showing and your attitude towards the poor dumbass uneducated people below you.  How did you survive being around all of uneducated dumbasses.  Life can be so cruel.

  I bet you hardly learn anything in college that really prepared for the job you ended up with.  Your learned your skill and expertness on the job and the people who taught you your skill on that job.  But your self importance and you ability to look down on people less than you, that was self taught.

  Your not even smart enough to write like you not some kind of an uneducated hillbilly.  It must be real hard for you to have to deal with poor white trash.  Other than to have them serve you.

  Yes Massa bossman.     

You have the exact same problem you ascribe to others, only from the other side. You think that everyone with a college education is an overeducated idiot. You obviously did not understand the sarcasm in my post, because you are so sure that no one with a degree understands anyone unless some good ol' boy with some practical knowledge takes the poor sap by the hand and leads them out of the wilderness. That's just another of your crass assumptions that isn't true.

You didn't respond to the part of my post about the space program and.......

And acting like the "Yes Massa bossman" crap is a huge assumption of what I actually think. I came from a working-class background. I won't bore you with a list of the jobs I held, but suffice it to say that they weren't the kind reserved for a "silver spoon in the mouth" child.

What I am tired of is the over-simplification and stereotyping of human beings. You jumped right on me because of my use of vocabulary, which is as normal to me as the way you talk. You are so damn sensitive that you only saw in my post the use of another style of language (which I grew up with, by the way) and you couldn't see past it to the deeper meaning, which is NOT making fun of anyone, but IS making fun of a way of thought -- STEREOTYPING.

I am fairly sure this post won't mean squat to you, because you have most of your attitudes cut in stone, but I had to give it a shot anyway.

[Sandy Eggo]

me, "why" indeed?

First of all, college is not the only method of learning or becoming educated. I know people whose intellect can only be admired who've never been to college.

Of course people tend to learn about what interests them, but can't that also be occupational?

Either you're missing my point or you have a misconception about education that it's all books, theory and boring. You're totally disregarding trade/technical schools, internships, practicums and apprenticeships.

As for learning in general...there's not a topic under the sun that someone can't become an expert in.. So basically, anything anyone wants to learn about is out there. Why not? Why not become more knowledgable?

Be it education (in some form) for work/career or education for fun, the motivation really doesn't matter, but it sure as hell shows.

[me]

me, "why" indeed?

First of all, college is not the only method of learning or becoming educated. I know people whose intellect can only be admired who've never been to college.

Of course people tend to learn about what interests them, but can't that also be occupational?

Either you're missing my point or you have a misconception about education that it's all books, theory and boring. You're totally disregarding trade/technical schools, internships, practicums and apprenticeships.

As for learning in general...there's not a topic under the sun that someone can't become an expert in.. So basically, anything anyone wants to learn about is out there. Why not? Why not become more knowledgable?

Be it education (in some form) for work/career or education for fun, the motivation really doesn't matter, but it sure as hell shows.

What happened here is I made a comment about something that I've known to happen wondering if it might be happening in this particular situation.  It was not meant to include all college educated people or to say that some of them didn't also have common sense.  I thought your comment meant the people who do that not want to learn from those who had actual OJT in a given field but preferred instead to go with their idea because "it works on paper" and they spent however many years in college learning how to design machinery so they figure they know how to design something to fix it even though what they design may not be practical in reality.   Look back through the thread and there are those on here who have mentioned problems they might run into when certain things were going to be tried and sure enough the problems came up and I'm sure no one here has even been on an oil rig much less worked on one.  They just knew based on what they had read or "learned" about from other life experiences.   Formal education is not the only way to learn it's just the only accepted way.

[followsthewolf]

"Formal education is not the only way to learn it's just the only accepted way"

I'll have to throw the BS flag on that one.

My grandson has an extremely responsible and highly technical job evaluating and installing very expensive electronic equipment.

He never went to "college," nor did any of the other workers in his company, although they did obtain two-year tech school degrees to learn the theory.

This snobbery being exhibited cuts both ways. You do what you must to advance in your chosen career; if it means formal education, then accept the challenge; if it means accumulating practical knowledge in your chosen career, by all means pursue it; however, it does NOT give one a license to stereotype someone who chooses a different path.

[The Troll]

You have the exact same problem you ascribe to others, only from the other side. You think that everyone with a college education is an overeducated idiot. You obviously did not understand the sarcasm in my post, because you are so sure that no one with a degree understands anyone unless some good ol' boy with some practical knowledge takes the poor sap by the hand and leads them out of the wilderness. That's just another of your crass assumptions that isn't true.

You didn't respond to the part of my post about the space program and.......

And acting like the "Yes Massa bossman" crap is a huge assumption of what I actually think. I came from a working-class background. I won't bore you with a list of the jobs I held, but suffice it to say that they weren't the kind reserved for a "silver spoon in the mouth" child.

What I am tired of is the over-simplification and stereotyping of human beings. You jumped right on me because of my use of vocabulary, which is as normal to me as the way you talk. You are so damn sensitive that you only saw in my post the use of another style of language (which I grew up with, by the way) and you couldn't see past it to the deeper meaning, which is NOT making fun of anyone, but IS making fun of a way of thought -- STEREOTYPING.

I am fairly sure this post won't mean squat to you, because you have most of your attitudes cut in stone, but I had to give it a shot anyway.

  FTW, I may have a attitude when it comes to college educated authoritarians.  Ford had a uncanny way of hiring them and I had the luck to get stuck with them.

  Going in day after day working working for the educated assholes knowing that it would be at least 6 months before you could move to a new area and get away from the dictatorial bastard.  You build up a hate.  Believe me when I say there are three of these asshole sonuvabitches I absolutely hate.   I was an apprentice under this bastard who gave me poor grades which were a lie, I had no power and he knew it.   He was hated so much so much by so many, someone shot out his picture windows while he was in bed.  Also so one shot his back window out of his coming to work in the dark, one early morning.

  Just like you said to me in you first post months ago, where you said, poor you, I feel so sorry for you, does that make you feel better.  Well, a thought came through my mind,  oh great, another asshole.  I watch you slip in a deliver a ass cutting to someone then disappear.  Like on a post to you from me, which you said I was like some small child trying to get on your better side.  I watch the big vocabulary and your use of the King's English and I knew, we got a college educated person.

  You say something about your question on the space program, how if it wasn't for the college educated people we would nave never got to the moon.  True.  We only had college educated people working on it.  I bet you one thing, they didn't get anywhere the education in college in 36 months as they got in the first 6 months on the job training.  Where did Einstein get his education on the theory of black holes, time, space and the universe in college?   Hell no, he wrote the damn book on it.  He was one in a billion, who comes out of nowhere and has that big wonderful intelligent brain.

  But what really get me is the way you wrote you post.  The vocabulary and the misspelled words and you say it normal for you.  Give me a break.

  Sir, I may have an attitude, but so do you.  I wish we could be friendly, but I don't think you could be friend with someone who doesn't have a college education and who isn't family.

  The ball is in your court.  What will be, will be.  Have a good day.    The Troll.

[me]

"Formal education is not the only way to learn it's just the only accepted way"

I'll have to throw the BS flag on that one.

My grandson has an extremely responsible and highly technical job evaluating and installing very expensive electronic equipment.

He never went to "college," nor did any of the other workers in his company, although they did obtain two-year tech school degrees to learn the theory.

This snobbery being exhibited cuts both ways. You do what you must to advance in your chosen career; if it means formal education, then accept the challenge; if it means accumulating practical knowledge in your chosen career, by all means pursue it; however, it does NOT give one a license to stereotype someone who chooses a different path.

Well why don't ya just hang me for makin' an observation and a comment on whats going on.....Sheesh....I was not stereotyping  And as far as the BS flag goes if you son had been doing the exact same thing and been just as good at it and went to that company and said he had only practical experience but no training I don't care how good he was he wouldn't have the job until he went to a trade school and learned it through formal training.   

[LOsborne]

You do what you must to advance in your chosen career; if it means formal education, then accept the challenge; if it means accumulating practical knowledge in your chosen career, by all means pursue it; however, it does NOT give one a license to stereotype someone who chooses a different path.

Damned well told, FTW. The first requirement is passion for the field you choose. Once you have that, you will do whatever it takes to gain more understanding and proficiency. Those who denigrate the college-educated must have run across some folks who took the path of least resistance. That is, everyone in their family has a degree of some kind, so they got one too. I'm not immune. My first degree was in "theatre" (note obnoxious esoteric spelling.) But somewhere in my misspent youth I discovered the joy of learning. Today, my profession is employment law, but my passion is for quantum physics. I'm afraid proficiency in neither of those can be acquired "on the job." So my own prejudice is against those who believe nothing of value can be gained by focused study.

And the paranoid insults of those who have not discovered the fun of stretching the limits of the human mind are hilarious.

[The Troll]

What happened here is I made a comment about something that I've known to happen wondering if it might be happening in this particular situation.  It was not meant to include all college educated people or to say that some of them didn't also have common sense.  I thought your comment meant the people who do that not want to learn from those who had actual OJT in a given field but preferred instead to go with their idea because "it works on paper" and they spent however many years in college learning how to design machinery so they figure they know how to design something to fix it even though what they design may not be practical in reality.   Look back through the thread and there are those on here who have mentioned problems they might run into when certain things were going to be tried and sure enough the problems came up and I'm sure no one here has even been on an oil rig much less worked on one.  They just knew based on what they had read or "learned" about from other life experiences.   Formal education is not the only way to learn it's just the only accepted way.