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The DOJ has filed suit against two separate healthcare mergers that were being undertaken. Aetna-Humana in one deal, and Anthem-Cigna in the other. Had those transactions been allowed to go forward it would have left 3 giant healthcare companies in this nation, with the third being United Health Care, and substantially reduced competition within the industry as well as created an environment ripe for collusion surrounding premiums and pricing / payouts/ coverages.

In the Anthem-Cigna deal, it has been marked by power struggles since its inception and Cigna beat the DOJ to the punch by filing to terminate the agreement between the two, with Cigna being owed 1.8 billion per the termination clause of the agreement. In addition, Cigna is suing Anthem for an additional 13 billion for damages it says it incurred due to Anthem's hyjinx. . .

The other deal has a similar termination clause imposing a 1 billion debt upon the violating party.

Anyone want to bet that this situation, along with the deregulatory actions being proposed, will drive a 40-50% (or more) premium increase for the average policy holders in FY2018? They'll cry they missed their fiscal goals and lost money due to the rising healthcare costs. Horse Crap!

They're losing money because they're playing games and got caught at it by the DOJ, for one. . .  :mad: :mad: :mad: :rant:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/14/investing/aetna-humana/index.html (http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/14/investing/aetna-humana/index.html)

http://www.atr.org/list-obamacare-tax-hikes

List of Obamacare Tax Hikes
Posted by John Kartch on Thursday, February 23rd, 2017, 6:57 PM PERMALINK

   
It is time to repeal each and every one of Obamacare's tax increases. The 20 Obamacare tax hikes are a $1 trillion net tax increase on the American people. The full list is below:

Individual Mandate Non-Compliance Tax: Anyone not buying "qualifying" health insurance – as defined by the Obama-era Department of Health and Human Services -- must pay an income surtax to the IRS. In 2014, close to 7.5 million households paid this tax. Most make less than $250,000. The Obama administration uses the Orwellian phrase "shared responsibility payment" to describe this tax.   

For tax year 2016, the tax is a minimum of $695 for individuals, while families of four have to pay a minimum of $2,085.



Households w/ 1 Adult



Households w/ 2 Adults

Households w/ 2 Adults & 2 children



2.5% AGI/$695



2.5% AGI/$1390

2.5% AGI/$2085

A recent analysis by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) found that repealing this tax would decrease spending by $311 billion over ten years.

Medicine Cabinet Tax on HSAs and FSAs: Since 2011 millions of Americans are no longer able to purchase over-the-counter medicines using pre-tax Flexible Spending Accounts or Health Savings Accounts dollars. Examples include cold, cough, and flu medicine, menstrual cramp relief medication, allergy medicines, and dozens of other common medicine cabinet health items. This tax costs FSA and HSA users $6.7 billion over ten years.

Flexible Spending Account Tax: The 30 - 35 million Americans who use a pre-tax Flexible Spending Account (FSA) at work to pay for their family's basic medical needs face an Obamacare-imposed cap of $2,500. This tax will hit Americans $32 billion over the next ten years.

Before Obamacare, the accounts were unlimited under federal law, though employers were allowed to set a cap. Now, parents looking to sock away extra money to pay for braces find themselves quickly hitting this new cap, meaning they have to pony up some or all of the cost with after-tax dollars. Needless to say, this tax especially impacts middle class families.

There is one group of FSA owners for whom this new cap is particularly cruel and onerous: parents of special needs children.  Families with special needs children often use FSAs to pay for special needs education. Tuition rates at special needs schools can run thousands of dollars per year. Under tax rules, FSA dollars can be used to pay for this type of special needs education. This Obamacare tax increase limits the options available to these families.

Chronic Care Tax: This income tax increase directly targets middle class Americans with high medical bills. The tax hits 10 million households every year. Before Obamacare, Americans facing high medical expenses were allowed an income tax deduction to the extent that those expenses exceeded 7.5 percent of adjusted gross income (AGI). Obamacare now imposes a threshold of 10 percent of AGI. Therefore, Obamacare not only makes it more difficult to claim this deduction, it widens the net of taxable income. This income tax increase will cost Americans $40 billion over the next ten years.

According to the IRS, approximately 10 million families took advantage of this tax deduction each year before Obamacare. Almost all were middle class: The average taxpayer claiming this deduction earned just over $53,000 annually in 2010. ATR estimates that the average income tax increase for the average family claiming this tax benefit is about $200 - $400 per year.

HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike: This provision increases the tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10 to 20 percent, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10 percent.

Ten Percent Excise Tax on Indoor Tanning: The Obamacare 10 percent tanning tax has wiped out an estimated 10,000 tanning salons, many owned by women. This $800 million Obamacare tax increase was the first to go into effect (July 2010). This petty, burdensome, nanny-state tax affects both the business owner and the end user. Industry estimates show that 30 million Americans visit an indoor tanning facility in a given year, and over 50 percent of salon owners are women. There is no exception granted for those making less than $250,000 meaning it is yet another tax that violates Obama's "firm pledge" not to raise "any form" of tax on Americans making less than this amount.

"Cadillac Tax" -- Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans: In 2020, a new 40 percent excise tax on employer provided health insurance plans is scheduled to kick in, on plans exceeding $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for families. According to research by the Kaiser Family Foundation, the Cadillac tax will hit 26 percent of employer provided plans by 2020 and 42 percent of employer provided plans by 2028. Over time, this will decrease care and increase costs for millions of American families across the country.

Health Insurance Tax: In addition to mandating the purchase of health insurance through the individual mandate tax, Obamacare directly increases the cost of insurance through the health insurance tax. The tax is projected to cost taxpayers – including those in the middle class – $130 billion over the next decade.

The total revenue this tax collects is set annually by Treasury and is then divided amongst insurers relative to the premiums they collect each year. While it is directly levied on the industry, the costs of the health insurance tax are inevitably passed on to small businesses that provide healthcare to their employees, middle class families through higher premiums, seniors who purchase Medicare advantage coverage, and the poor who rely on Medicaid managed care.

According to the American Action Forum, the Obamacare health insurance tax will increase premiums by up to $5,000 over a decade and will directly impact 1.7 million small businesses, 11 million households that purchase through the individual insurance market and 23 million households covered through their jobs. The tax is also economically destructive – the National Federation for Independent Businesses estimates the tax could cost up to 286,000 in new jobs and cost small businesses $33 billion in lost sales by 2023.

Employer Mandate Tax: This provision forces employers to pay a $2,000 tax per full time employee if they do not offer "qualifying" – as defined by the government -- health coverage, and at least one employee qualifies for a health tax credit. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the Employer Mandate Tax raises taxes on businesses by $166.9 billion over the ten years.

Surtax on Investment Income: Obamacare created a new, 3.8 percent surtax on investment income earned in households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 for singles). This created a new top capital gains tax rate of 23.8% and increased taxes by $222.8 billion over ten years.

The capital gains tax hits income that has already been subjected to individual income taxes and is then reinvested in assets that spur new jobs, higher wages, and increased economic growth. Much of the "gains" associated with the capital gains tax is due to inflation and studies have shown that even supposedly modest increases in the capital gains tax have strong negative economic effects.

Payroll Tax Hike: Obamacare imposes an additional 0.9 percent payroll tax on individuals making $200,000 or couples making more than $250,000. This tax increase costs Americans $123 billion over ten years.

Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers: This law imposes a new 2.3% excise tax on all sales of medical devices. The tax applies even if the company has no profits in a given year. The tax was recently paused for tax years 2016 and 2017. It will cost Americans $20 billion by 2025.

Tax on Prescription Medicine: Obamacare imposed a tax on the producers of prescription medicine based on relative share of sales. This is a $29.6 billion tax hike over the next ten years.

Codification of the "economic substance doctrine": This provision allows the IRS to disallow completely legal tax deductions and other legal tax-minimizing plans just because the IRS deems that the action lacks "substance" and is merely intended to reduce taxes owed. This costs taxpayers $5.8 billion over ten years.

Elimination of Deduction for Retiree Prescription Drug Coverage: The elimination of this deduction is a $1.8 billion tax hike over ten years.

$500,000 Annual Executive Compensation Limit for Health Insurance Executives: This deduction limitation is a $600 million tax hike over ten years.



Read more: http://www.atr.org/list-obamacare-tax-hikes#ixzz4ZaF304lZ
Follow us: @taxreformer on Twitter

Quote from: me on February 24, 2017, 02:01:07 AM
List of Obamacare Tax Hikes

Clearly yet another thing you couldn't be bothered to actually fact check.  Why do you care any way?  You don't pay taxes; you're a parasite.

Quote from: Exterminator on February 24, 2017, 11:15:49 AM
Clearly yet another thing you couldn't be bothered to actually fact check.  Why do you care any way?  You don't pay taxes; you're a parasite.

That's just it they are taxes but were disguised by raising costs and sneaky and calling them other things.  It was all in the wording when he said our taxes weren't going to raise, well no, ours won't but taxes on other things and costs will so in the long run it will be we who pay.

Quote from: me on February 24, 2017, 03:01:38 PM
...so in the long run it will be we who pay.

Not you!

Quote from: Exterminator on February 24, 2017, 03:53:54 PM
Not you!

Only due to my age

Quote from: me on February 24, 2017, 11:48:57 PM
Only due to my age

Maybe not:

A draft of the House Republicans' bill to repeal Obamacare would replace its subsidies with less generous tax credits, increase the amount insurers could charge older Americans and effectively eliminate Medicaid for low-income adults.
These provisions could leave a significant share of the 20 million people who gained coverage under Obamacare without insurance. The proposal would go fully into effect in 2020.
"A substantial number of people could lose coverage because it's no longer affordable," said Larry Levitt, senior vice president at the non-partisan Kaiser Family Foundation. . .

So there you go. He will slit the throats of the very people that voted for him, in favor of Korporate Amerika and multi-billion dollar profits. Even in health care. . .  :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Quote from: me on February 24, 2017, 11:48:57 PM
Only due to my age

Well, that and you don't have a pot to piss in.   :rolleyes:

Quote from: Exterminator on February 27, 2017, 11:34:27 AM
Well, that and you don't have a pot to piss in.   :rolleyes:

I have a comfortable HOME, a nice, paid for, car, enough cash to buy things I need and pay my bills, and can get things I see that I want so I'm happy with where I am in life. A comfortable stress free life is more important to me than "things". You really need to quit looking down on people Ex.

Quote from: me on February 27, 2017, 12:19:43 PM
I have a comfortable HOME, a nice, paid for, car, enough cash to buy things I need and pay my bills, and can get things I see that I want so I'm happy with where I am in life. A comfortable stress free life is more important to me than "things". You really need to quit looking down on people Ex.

That's not it at all...there will always be people who are smarter, richer, better looking, etc. than the next guy.  I see things like infrastructure and education and public safety and health care as things that are beneficial to society and I don't mind paying for them one bit...and be sure, I actually am paying for them.  Forgive me if it gripes my ass to have to listen to the people who aren't paying for those things bitch about how much they cost.

Quote from: Exterminator on February 27, 2017, 02:36:47 PM
That's not it at all...there will always be people who are smarter, richer, better looking, etc. than the next guy.  I see things like infrastructure and education and public safety and health care as things that are beneficial to society and I don't mind paying for them one bit...and be sure, I actually am paying for them.  Forgive me if it gripes my ass to have to listen to the people who aren't paying for those things bitch about how much they cost.

  Ex, she lived off of union health insurance most of her life and now she has got medicare and the union is most likely paying for her supplemental insurance.   :rant:  Like she really give a damn.  :rant:

I wonder if she supports health savings accounts.  Do you 'me' or do you not support them?

There's a reason for my asking and I'd like to hear the same from Hank if he chooses to opine. 

Quote from: Exterminator on February 27, 2017, 02:36:47 PM
That's not it at all...there will always be people who are smarter, richer, better looking, etc. than the next guy.  I see things like infrastructure and education and public safety and health care as things that are beneficial to society and I don't mind paying for them one bit...and be sure, I actually am paying for them.  Forgive me if it gripes my ass to have to listen to the people who aren't paying for those things bitch about how much they cost.

What you don't seem to understand is I did pay for those things when I was working just like you are now.

Quote from: Locutus on February 27, 2017, 06:34:53 PM
I wonder if she supports health savings accounts.  Do you 'me' or do you not support them?

There's a reason for my asking and I'd like to hear the same from Hank if he chooses to opine.

I'm rather iffy on that one just like I wasn't for those 401k's. If the government would keep their hands out of them, tax wise, and people would actually pay into them, yes, I think that would be good coupled with insurance. People with minimum wage jobs wouldn't be able to save enough into a health savings account to pay for major health problems if they happen to have them in their later years or if they didn't start saving early enough.

Quote from: The Troll on February 27, 2017, 04:26:37 PM
  Ex, she lived off of union health insurance most of her life and now she has got medicare and the union is most likely paying for her supplemental insurance.   :rant:  Like she really give a damn.  :rant:

I pay for my own supplemental insurance. The insurance the Ironworkers wasn't set up like the union you were in unfortunately. Even the Ironworkers had to continue paying union dues after retirement to keep the insurance in force. It was a reduced rate but they still had to pay.

Quote from: me on February 28, 2017, 12:08:05 AM
What you don't seem to understand is I did pay for those things when I was working just like you are now.

When you worked...which doesn't appear to have been much and you made nowhere near as much money as I do so you didn't pay anywhere near the taxes I do.

Quote from: Exterminator on February 28, 2017, 12:26:36 PM
When you worked...which doesn't appear to have been much and you made nowhere near as much money as I do so you didn't pay anywhere near the taxes I do.

Hum, and you know all about me how? Thing is I didn't need fancy and expensive or I could have made as much or more than you. I paid the max amount into SS for several years as did my husband so, yes, I have paid for what I now have in retirement as well as some of yours due to our age difference. You didn't pay a dime on what I draw now but I paid into yours. You're welcome. Oh, and don't forget to thank Troll too since he contributed to what you're gonna draw on.

Quote from: me on February 28, 2017, 02:37:21 PM
Hum, and you know all about me how?

I know a lot more about you than you think I do.

QuoteI paid the max amount into SS for several years as did my husband...

I don't believe this for a minute.

Quoteyes, I have paid for what I now have in retirement as well as some of yours due to our age difference. You didn't pay a dime on what I draw now but I paid into yours. You're welcome. Oh, and don't forget to thank Troll too since he contributed to what you're gonna draw on.

You really don't understand how this ponzi scheme works, do you?  You have it exactly backwards...the people paying in now are paying for you, not the other way around.  Do you think that the first people who ever got social security were paid for by people who paid into the system before them but didn't get to reap its benefits?  This is not a difficult concept.

From the government's own publication: (https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10024.pdf) "The current Social Security system works like this: when
you work, you pay taxes into Social Security. We use the
tax money to pay benefits to:
• People who have already retired;
• People who are disabled;
• Survivors of workers who have died; and
• Dependents of beneficiaries."

Quote from: Exterminator on February 28, 2017, 04:01:32 PM
I know a lot more about you than you think I do.


I don't believe this for a minute.

You really don't understand how this ponzi scheme works, do you?  You have it exactly backwards...the people paying in now are paying for you, not the other way around.  Do you think that the first people who ever got social security were paid for by people who paid into the system before them but didn't get to reap its benefits?  This is not a difficult concept.

From the government's own publication: (https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10024.pdf) "The current Social Security system works like this: when
you work, you pay taxes into Social Security. We use the
tax money to pay benefits to:
• People who have already retired;
• People who are disabled;
• Survivors of workers who have died; and
• Dependents of beneficiaries."

I know I paid in a hell of a lot more than I'll hope to ever get out of it and my former husband definitely did. I am retired as you will be at my age, if you're lucky, so back off Jack, get a life and quit judging mine.

Quote from: me on February 28, 2017, 05:05:27 PM
I know I paid in a hell of a lot more than I'll hope to ever get out of it and my former husband definitely did. I am retired as you will be at my age, if you're lucky, so back off Jack, get a life and quit judging mine.

Also bullshit but since you claim that you paid in the max amount for SS, I submit for your perusal a historical chart of the income caps for social security taxes (https://www.ssa.gov/planners/maxtax.html) (for 2016, it was $118,500.00).  During which years did you earn enough to surpass these amounts again?

And since you didn't specifically mention it, I'll take your non-response as tacit acknowledgement that you never paid a fucking dime toward any social security income that I may or may not ever collect.

Quote from: Exterminator on March 01, 2017, 10:51:14 AM
Also bullshit but since you claim that you paid in the max amount for SS, I submit for your perusal a historical chart of the income caps for social security taxes (https://www.ssa.gov/planners/maxtax.html) (for 2016, it was $118,500.00).  During which years did you earn enough to surpass these amounts again?

And since you didn't specifically mention it, I'll take your non-response as tacit acknowledgement that you never paid a fucking dime toward any social security income that I may or may not ever collect.

Dumb ass, the max amount was withheld from the salary each week.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: me on March 01, 2017, 11:34:12 AM
Dumb ass, the max amount was withheld from the salary each week.  :rolleyes:

No, you stupid fuck, that is not how it works.  Social security/FICA is collected as a percentage of your pay until you reach the cap.  Right now, that percentage is 7.65% so if you made $100.00, they would withhold $7.65...if you made $1,000.00, they would withhold $76.50 so how could $7.65 be the max?

So far, every single thing you've said about social security has been dead wrong...maybe you should just stfu about things you know nothing about?

Quote from: Exterminator on March 01, 2017, 12:55:42 PM
No, you stupid fuck, that is not how it works.  Social security/FICA is collected as a percentage of your pay until you reach the cap.  Right now, that percentage is 7.65% so if you made $100.00, they would withhold $7.65...if you made $1,000.00, they would withhold $76.50 so how could $7.65 be the max?

So far, every single thing you've said about social security has been dead wrong...maybe you should just stfu about things you know nothing about?

Ok, so you're telling me when they quit withholding for SS most years, toward the end of the year, out of hubby's check it was for some other reason than he had paid in the max amount required for that particular year?

Quote from: me on March 01, 2017, 01:19:10 PM
Ok, so you're telling me when they quit withholding for SS most years, toward the end of the year, out of hubby's check it was for some other reason than he had paid in the max amount required for that particular year?

No, I'm saying that I don't believe you're being truthful about that ever happening.

I don't think she understands the difference in 'paying the SS maximum' and 'paying his/her income level maximum in SS taxes'.   :biggrin:

Quote from: Y on March 01, 2017, 01:52:52 PM
I don't think she understands the difference in 'paying the SS maximum' and 'paying his/her income level maximum in SS taxes'.   :biggrin:

Exactly.

Quote from: Exterminator on March 01, 2017, 01:46:11 PM
No, I'm saying that I don't believe you're being truthful about that ever happening.

Oh good grief give it a rest will ya? Yes, it was the max for his income at the time and he had an excellent income. The point is I, and he, paid into the system just as you are, I'm not living on your money without having also paid into it as you seem to be infering. You are trying to twist my words and make me out a freeloader on the system and that I am definitely now.

Quote from: me on March 01, 2017, 04:09:51 PM
The point is I, and he, paid into the system just as you are, I'm not living on your money without having also paid into it as you seem to be infering.

Wrong! (https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisconover/2012/12/03/aarp-lobbies-for-100000-plus-medicare-subsidy-for-seniors/#cd98d3b6bdd5)

Quote from: Exterminator on March 02, 2017, 08:35:12 AM
Wrong! (https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisconover/2012/12/03/aarp-lobbies-for-100000-plus-medicare-subsidy-for-seniors/#cd98d3b6bdd5)

Guess you will be doing the same then huh? Why don't you complain about the illegals who are collecting benefits without having paid anything into the system?

Quote from: me on March 02, 2017, 12:11:31 PM
Guess you will be doing the same then huh?

Actually, no since there will be so many baby boomers all retiring at about the same time, there will not be enough people paying into the system to cover them all.  Had you been paying attention to the looming crisis over Social Security and Medicare, you would already know these things.

QuoteWhy don't you complain about the illegals who are collecting benefits without having paid anything into the system?

Uh, yeah, they aren't because they aren't eligible but I do applaud you for not only illustrating your ignorance but your racism as well, all within the same sentence!  Bravo!  I think you'll find, if you were at all willing to do any research, that most illegals here use other people's social security numbers so not only can they not collect the imaginary benefits you mention, they're actually paying into accounts that legal residents get credit for.

Quote from: Exterminator on March 02, 2017, 01:04:55 PM
Actually, no since there will be so many baby boomers all retiring at about the same time, there will not be enough people paying into the system to cover them all.  Had you been paying attention to the looming crisis over Social Security and Medicare, you would already know these things.

Uh, yeah, they aren't because they aren't eligible but I do applaud you for not only illustrating your ignorance but your racism as well, all within the same sentence!  Bravo!  I think you'll find, if you were at all willing to do any research, that most illegals here use other people's social security numbers so not only can they not collect the imaginary benefits you mention, they're actually paying into accounts that legal residents get credit for.

So you're telling me they aren't getting free medical care, food stamps, and housing at a discounted rate or free?

Quote from: me on March 02, 2017, 01:36:59 PM
So you're telling me they aren't getting free medical care, food stamps, and housing at a discounted rate or free?

Me, I will share with you,.....Illegal immigrants have and do receive grants, loans, disability, public housing, college educations, food stamps, WIC, unemployment benefits, and tax credits from state and federal agencies....this isn't a mystery...some people on here like to pretend they know more than everyone, but this is a fact.  It cannot be disputed.

My whole problem is this.......the term..."Illegal".  Nearly every civilized nation on this earth has laws regarding immigration.  If you do not follow the rules set up by these nations, you are required to leave.  But, liberals seem to think it is okay.  The only logical explanation would be they WANT their vote.  Common knowledge says you don't bite the hands that feed you........so??

While I am on it, the Trump admin, is ONLY targeting "illegals" that have committed felonies.  But, the fake news is telling us that they are sending Nanny's and housekeepers away by the truck loads.

Btw, Obama sent nearly 400,000 in 2013 and you didn't see ONE riot or protest. NOT ONE news agency had much to say...........it is all POLITICAL THEATER!!

Quote from: me on March 02, 2017, 01:36:59 PM
So you're telling me they aren't getting free medical care, food stamps, and housing at a discounted rate or free?

The 1996 Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, that provides assistance with cash, food, housing and health care bars unauthorized immigrants from drawing benefits.  We do provide schooling for their children but most of them work and pay taxes so that's pretty much a wash.

Are there any subjects about which you aren't completely ignorant?

So far we have:

1. FICA
2. Immigration
3. Grape Growing in England
4. The Farm Bill
5. Sand Monument to Obama at the DNC in Charlotte.

:rotfl:

..and those are just a few that I can remember. 

Quote from: Exterminator on March 02, 2017, 01:55:09 PM
The 1996 Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, that provides assistance with cash, food, housing and health care bars unauthorized immigrants from drawing benefits.  We do provide schooling for their children but most of them work and pay taxes so that's pretty much a wash.

Are there any subjects about which you aren't completely ignorant?

So how are these thousands of illegals coming now making it if we're not helping them?

Quote from: Locutus on March 02, 2017, 02:26:37 PM
So far we have:

1. FICA
2. Immigration
3. Grape Growing in England
4. The Farm Bill ????
5. Sand Monument to Obama at the DNC in Charlotte. ?????

:rotfl:

..and those are just a few that I can remember.

Quote from: me on March 02, 2017, 02:29:16 PM

So far we have:

1. FICA
2. Immigration
3. Grape Growing in England
4. The Farm Bill ????
5. Sand Monument to Obama at the DNC in Charlotte. ?????

:rotfl:

..and those are just a few that I can remember.

You claimed that the Republicans had passed a Farm Bill when, in fact, they had not. 

Quote from: me on March 02, 2017, 02:28:00 PM
So how are these thousands of illegals coming now making it if we're not helping them?

They work?

Quote from: Exterminator on March 03, 2017, 09:10:06 AM
They work?

You're telling me those who cross the border illegally get jobs immediatly even though there may be hundreds at a time? You really need to go buy some property in one of the border towns in Texas and see what that's really all about.

Quote from: me on March 03, 2017, 10:52:22 AM
You're telling me those who cross the border illegally get jobs immediatly even though there may be hundreds at a time?

That's exactly what I'm telling you.  There are networks of these people and they know which farms have crops that are due to be picked and when.

QuoteYou really need to go buy some property in one of the border towns in Texas and see what that's really all about.

What makes you think most of the people coming across the border end up in Texas?  What's there that they want as opposed to somewhere like California where there's migrant farm work to be had?  And have you ever owned property in one of the border towns in Texas and if not how would you know what it's really all about?

Look, it's already been proven to you that there is a federal law on the books that bars illegal immigrants from collecting the benefits you are trying to say they all come here to get.  Why not just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about and STFU already?

Quote from: Exterminator on March 03, 2017, 11:21:23 AM
That's exactly what I'm telling you.  There are networks of these people and they know which farms have crops that are due to be picked and when.

What makes you think most of the people coming across the border end up in Texas?  What's there that they want as opposed to somewhere like California where there's migrant farm work to be had?  And have you ever owned property in one of the border towns in Texas and if not how would you know what it's really all about?

I say Texas 'cause you'd get a big dose of reality handed to you in one of those smaller border towns or out in the middle of nowhere on one of the ranches.

Oh, c'mon!

You're just repeating blather you've gotten from Fux, BiteBat, and Alex Jones.

You're not kidding anybody.   :razz:

:biggrin:

She has probably never even been to Texas...and I've actually crossed the border there...more than once.

I'm just aghast that the Repugs are continually against national health care.

What advanced society wouldn't consider that as a necessary, and integral, part of taking care of the citizenry?

Quote from: Exterminator on March 03, 2017, 02:47:13 PM
She has probably never even been to Texas...and I've actually crossed the border there...more than once.

Like I pointed out, Me is just regurgitating from her propaganda sources.

It's been known for a while that Mexicans are actually returning to Mexico instead of - as Me puts it - pouring across our southern border. 

A simple Google would have made that clear:  https://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&btnG=Search&q=more+mexicans+returning+to+mexico

Quote from: Exterminator on March 03, 2017, 02:47:13 PM
She has probably never even been to Texas...and I've actually crossed the border there...more than once.

I have not only been there I lived there for a while in the mid 60's and my former husbands father and grandparents were born there, La Porte as a matter of fact. Look it up dude. A friend of mine lived in El Paso until a couple of years ago and her daughter still lives there and my grandson-in-laws grand parents lived in Odessa until last year and they moved back up here.

Senior citizens are going to take the pipe if this healthcare bill passes. 30% taxation penalty for being a senior citizen.  :rolleyes:

Deregulation of the healthcare industry, and insurers in particular, is not the answer. Each year since deregulation of the industry under Rappin' Ronnie, premiums have risen and skyrocketed. Now we have the high deductible plans that serve to do nothing more than stave off payouts from the health insurers and serve to increase the premiums we pay by thousands of dollars annually.

What will they do when our population starts to rapidly decline due to the deaths driven by lack of care?  :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Paul Ryan is nothing but a shill for the insurance companies. I trust him as far as I can throw the state of Texas!  :rant:

Interesting article (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-magnet-health-insurance-reforms-20170328-story.html) that comes to the same conclusion I have about health insurance in this country: It is impossible to have an equitable, cost effective vehicle for providing health care insurance when the organizational goal is return on investment to stockholders (which also determines executive compensation).

"In the 1940s and '50s, the owners of these insurance companies were the policyholders, and their employees were just administrators who calculated the risks, collected the premiums, and paid out the benefits. Blue Cross and Blue Shield were in the insurance business, not the investment business, and they needed no high-paid top executives to make investment decisions to enrich non-policy owning shareholders. There were none. No insurance company presumed to tell a doctor how to treat his patient to promote the interests of the insurance company, for the interests of insurer and patient were identical. The demutualizing of these companies was a huge policy mistake, vastly increasing the cost of health insurance in order to reward public shareholders and executives, not policyholders. Now the tail wags the dog."

Quote from: Exterminator on March 29, 2017, 10:06:28 AM
Interesting article (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-magnet-health-insurance-reforms-20170328-story.html) that comes to the same conclusion I have about health insurance in this country: It is impossible to have an equitable, cost effective vehicle for providing health care insurance when the organizational goal is return on investment to stockholders (which also determines executive compensation).

"In the 1940s and ‘50s, the owners of these insurance companies were the policyholders, and their employees were just administrators who calculated the risks, collected the premiums, and paid out the benefits. Blue Cross and Blue Shield were in the insurance business, not the investment business, and they needed no high-paid top executives to make investment decisions to enrich non-policy owning shareholders. There were none.
were identical. The demutualizing of these companies was a huge policy mistake, vastly increasing the cost of health insurance in order to reward public shareholders and executives, not policyholders. Now the tail wags the dog."

Excellent article. Thanks for posting it. On the same subject, Bernie Sanders  was on Morning Joe this morning. He was all fired up, and said he thought "Medicare for All" was the answer! (to be continued)

I am repeating the above posts by Exterminator and me because when I quoted him I somehow left out a very important part. The omitted part is in bold.

Quote from: Exterminator on March 29, 2017, 10:06:28 AM
Interesting article (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe%20and-magnet-health-insurance-reforms-20170328-story.html) that comes to the same conclusion I have about health insurance in this country: It is impossible to have an equitable, cost effective vehicle for providing health care insurance when the organizational goal is return on investment to stockholders (which also determines executive compensation).

"In the 1940s and '50s, the owners of these insurance companies were the policyholders, and their employees were just administrators who calculated the risks, collected the premiums, and paid out the benefits. Blue Cross and Blue Shield were in the insurance business, not the investment business, and they needed no high-paid top executives to make investment decisions to enrich non-policy owning shareholders. There were none. No insurance company presumed to tell a doctor how to treat his patient to promote the interests of the insurance company, for the interests of insurer and patient were identical. The demutualizing of these companies was a huge policy mistake, vastly increasing the cost of health insurance in order to reward public shareholders and executives, not policyholders. Now the tail wags the dog."

Quote from: libby on March 29, 2017, 12:57:40 PM
Excellent article. Thanks for posting it. On the same subject, Bernie Sanders  was on Morning Joe this morning. He was all fired up, and said he thought "Medicare for All" was the answer! (to be continued)

This crap about adding surcharges to your monthly premium is bullshit too. . .  :mad:

Surcharges for failing to submit to invasion of your privacy by allowing the company access to your blood work and body metrics. . .

Surcharges for tobacco use because you didn't submit to the above and an automatic assumption you use tobacco. . .

Surcharges if your spouse works but doesn't carry her employer's healthcare insurance. . .

This shit is endless!  :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

Quote from: Exterminator on March 29, 2017, 10:06:28 AM
Interesting article that comes to the same conclusion I have about health insurance in this country: It is impossible to have an equitable, cost effective vehicle for providing health care insurance when the organizational goal is return on investment to stockholders (which also determines executive compensation).

There are several things a society should not allow to be under the vagaries etc. of the capitalist economic system - and one of them is health care.

We should have universal health care, and the most apparent method to do that is to simply expand medicare to cover everyone.

No more capitalism in health care.

Quote from: Y on April 06, 2017, 06:00:47 PM


No more capitalism in health care.

I've said it before and will say it again.  There's something definitely antithetical about for-profit corporations having a voice in what is and should be health care in this country.   :yes:

Quote from: Y on April 06, 2017, 06:00:47 PM
There are several things a society should not allow to be under the vagaries etc. of the capitalist economic system - and one of them is health care.

We should have universal health care, and the most apparent method to do that is to simply expand medicare to cover everyone.

No more capitalism in health care.

Might look good to you from this end but it sure isn't all it's cracked up to be, universal health care that is.

Quote from: me on April 06, 2017, 07:39:15 PM
Might look good to you from this end but it sure isn't all it's cracked up to be, universal health care that is.

Why not?

Quote from: Locutus on April 06, 2017, 07:44:38 PM
Why not?

I covered that when they were trying to pass Obama care and Ex gave me shit for it so I won't go there again but, believe me, it isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm related to some people who lived in Canada for several years and experienced that health care and who now live in the states with their Canadian spouses.

Quote from: me on April 06, 2017, 08:09:05 PM
I covered that when they were trying to pass Obama care and Ex gave me shit for it so I won't go there again but, believe me, it isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm related to some people who lived in Canada for several years and experienced that health care and who now live in the states with their Canadian spouses.

If you don't mind me asking, how are your health expenses covered?  You're perfectly clear to tell me that's none of my business if you so choose. 

Quote from: Locutus on April 06, 2017, 08:15:03 PM
If you don't mind me asking, how are your health expenses covered?  You're perfectly clear to tell me that's none of my business if you so choose.

Medicare with a supplement.

Quote from: me on April 06, 2017, 08:16:52 PM
Medicare with a supplement.

So what, specifically, is your problem with Obamacare?  This ties in to the question on the other thread as to how you've been wronged and adversely affected by the policies of the last 8 years.

I'd really like to know. 

Is it subsidies? 

Quote from: Locutus on April 06, 2017, 08:34:02 PM
So what, specifically, is your problem with Obamacare?  This ties in to the question on the other thread as to how you've been wronged and adversely affected by the policies of the last 8 years.

I'd really like to know. 

Is it subsidies?

Just posted there.

Indiana changed the medicare program rather than participate in the ACA. . .

Quote from: Palehorse on April 06, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
Indiana changed the medicare program rather than participate in the ACA. . .

Hum, wonder if that's why our friend in Ky is having to pay more.

Quote from: me on April 06, 2017, 07:39:15 PM
Might look good to you from this end but it sure isn't all it's cracked up to be, universal health care that is.

This statement continues to astound me.  How can someone like you, who is on Medicaid with subsidies, make such a statement?

How exactly are you negatively impacted by this legislation?

Quote from: Locutus on April 06, 2017, 08:41:16 PM
This statement continues to astound me.  How can someone like you, who is on Medicaid with subsidies, make such a statement?

How exactly are you negatively impacted by this legislation?

Both me and hubby have had things come up that required immediate care which we would have had to be put on a waiting list for there.

Quote from: me on April 06, 2017, 08:39:34 PM
Hum, wonder if that's why our friend in Ky is having to pay more.

My sister in KY, (a disabled healthcare professional herself), has been in their system for years. Indiana used to be when you went onto disability you automatically were covered by medicaid, etc. immediately. Not anymore here. Now you have to endure 24 months without any healthcare coverage what so ever, before you can obtain medicaid. (Which my sister in KY had to endure several years ago herself, because KY has had that for a long time).

Moreover, states that chose NOT to participate in the ACA had their federal funding for medicaid reduced or eliminated. And before you get onto that spotted high horse of yours and start spewing more half cocked "wisdom", remember that your Clown In Chief, the Raging Cheeto, and his clown car filled with liars are getting ready to impose even deeper cuts to medicare/medicaid, and a whole to of other philanthropic programs from which millions of Americans have benefitted over the past 40+ years. (And once he starts this next world war, this nation is going to need the tribal knowledge and experience of many of those he is crapping on in order to crank up manufacturing to fill the supply lines of the war machine back up; if they are still alive).

So if you think you're safe, think again. The ship is leaking badly, but you just don't see it yet. Soon your socks are going to be soggy and when they are it will be far too late to do anything about it. . . And shortly thereafter you will be out of luck . . .  :spooked:

(And that billion dollar surplus Indiana was crowing about? Yeah, that's about gone now, so look out. . . )

Quote from: Palehorse on April 06, 2017, 09:44:13 PM
My sister in KY, (a disabled healthcare professional herself), has been in their system for years. Indiana used to be when you went onto disability you automatically were covered by medicaid, etc. immediately. Not anymore here. Now you have to endure 24 months without any healthcare coverage what so ever, before you can obtain medicaid. (Which my sister in KY had to endure several years ago herself, because KY has had that for a long time).

Moreover, states that chose NOT to participate in the ACA had their federal funding for medicaid reduced or eliminated. And before you get onto that spotted high horse of yours and start spewing more half cocked "wisdom", remember that your Clown In Chief, the Raging Cheeto, and his clown car filled with liars are getting ready to impose even deeper cuts to medicare/medicaid, and a whole to of other philanthropic programs from which millions of Americans have benefitted over the past 40+ years. (And once he starts this next world war, this nation is going to need the tribal knowledge and experience of many of those he is crapping on in order to crank up manufacturing to fill the supply lines of the war machine back up; if they are still alive).

So if you think you're safe, think again. The ship is leaking badly, but you just don't see it yet. Soon your socks are going to be soggy and when they are it will be far too late to do anything about it. . . And shortly thereafter you will be out of luck . . .  :spooked:

(And that billion dollar surplus Indiana was crowing about? Yeah, that's about gone now, so look out. . . )

I was talking about Medicare not Medicaid.

Quote from: Locutus on April 06, 2017, 08:41:16 PM
This statement continues to astound me.  How can someone like you, who is on Medicaid with subsidies, make such a statement?

It boggles the mind, doesn't it?  She's actually telling us that the system that works for her won't work for others.  WTF?

Quote from: me on April 06, 2017, 08:09:05 PM
I covered that when they were trying to pass Obama care and Ex gave me shit for it so I won't go there again but, believe me, it isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm related to some people who lived in Canada for several years and experienced that health care and who now live in the states with their Canadian spouses.

Googling "what do Canadians think of their health care system" exposes your lies.

Quote from: Exterminator on April 07, 2017, 08:06:20 AM
Googling "what do Canadians think of their health care system" exposes your lies.

So me having relatives who actually lived there and are married to Canadians doesn't count? Sure some of them may like it because that's all they know but there are those who prefer our system.

Quote from: Locutus on April 06, 2017, 08:41:16 PM
This statement continues to astound me.  How can someone like you, who is on Medicaid with subsidies, make such a statement?

How exactly are you negatively impacted by this legislation?

Quote from: me on April 06, 2017, 08:16:52 PM
Medicare with a supplement.

I pay for the extra coverage for scrips, eye, and dental.

Quote from: me on April 07, 2017, 09:38:01 AM
So me having relatives who actually lived there and are married to Canadians doesn't count? Sure some of them may like it because that's all they know but there are those who prefer our system.

My guess is that your relatives are as stupid and misled as you are.  The fact is that, despite the myths you tried to feed us the last time this came up, more than 80% of Canadians approve of their health care system.

Quote from: Exterminator on April 07, 2017, 12:51:41 PM
My guess is that your relatives are as stupid and misled as you are.  The fact is that, despite the myths you tried to feed us the last time this came up, more than 80% of Canadians approve of their health care system.

Did you talk to them yourself or just read that? My relatives are speaking from actually experiencing the health care and being citizens of Canada and living there for a number of years.

And here I thought purple lady was the queen of anecdotal evidence.  :razz:

Quote from: me on April 07, 2017, 01:02:18 PM
Did you talk to them yourself or just read that?

There are plenty of surveys available that back this up.  Do you ever actually look anything up before you start running your jib?

QuoteMy relatives are speaking from actually experiencing the health care and being citizens of Canada and living there for a number of years.

Their experience is not commensurate with an overwhelming majority of the population.  Maybe the problem was with them rather than with the system?

Quote from: Exterminator on April 07, 2017, 01:46:23 PM
There are plenty of surveys available that back this up.  Do you ever actually look anything up before you start running your jib?

Their experience is not commensurate with an overwhelming majority of the population.  Maybe the problem was with them rather than with the system?

You are impossible.

  Ex, if she looked up the actual facts she wouldn't understand them.  She just like Turkey Buzzard ( Hank), she don't know shit.  :haha:  :haha:  God is she thick. :doh:

Ya, I guess you do need to read and not bother talking to actual citizens of that country. Surveys and google are always the best place to get info.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: me on April 07, 2017, 05:27:30 PM
Ya, I guess you do need to read and not bother talking to actual citizens of that country.

To how many citizens of that country did you speak?

QuoteSurveys and google are always the best place to get info.  :rolleyes:

Google didn't conduct the surveys, stupid; they only provide links to them.

Quote from: Exterminator on April 10, 2017, 09:09:14 AM
To how many citizens of that country did you speak?

Google didn't conduct the surveys, stupid; they only provide links to them.

Well, stupid they still provide the info. How many citizens of that country did you speak to?

Quote from: me on April 10, 2017, 10:33:58 AM
Well, stupid they still provide the info. How many citizens of that country did you speak to?

None directly but that's the point of surveys...they reflect the overall impressions of millions of people rather than the two with whom you've spoken.

Quote from: me on April 06, 2017, 10:40:21 PM
I was talking about Medicare not Medicaid.

Medicare too. . .  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote from: Exterminator on April 10, 2017, 11:02:46 AM
None directly but that's the point of surveys...they reflect the overall impressions of millions of people rather than the two with whom you've spoken.

They are not always accurate either.

Quote from: Palehorse on April 10, 2017, 11:53:50 AM
Medicare too. . .  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Medicare and Medicaid work differently.

Quote from: me on April 10, 2017, 11:55:44 AM
Medicare and Medicaid work differently.

Or for crying out loud. Stop diverting and admit you are not aware of the intricacies of how government works, (or doesn't), at the local/state/federal levels. . .

I am FULLY aware of the differences within the two programs, and as recently as last week went through regulatory and compliance training for same as they relate to my work. How about you?  :roll eyes:

The fact is, the states that opted out of the healthcare insurance market places outlined by the ADA threw their citizens under the bus over their pandering to health insurers and covert racisim.  Moreover, the act of doing so substantially decreased federal subsidization for both state-run medicare and medicaid. . . Which is exactly why MOST users experienced stark changes to the state run programs. . .

Quote from: me on April 10, 2017, 11:54:02 AM
They are not always accurate either.

They're not wrong as often or by as much as individuals are.  You're a perfect example.

Quote from: Palehorse on April 10, 2017, 12:04:16 PM
Or for crying out loud. Stop diverting and admit you are not aware of the intricacies of how government works, (or doesn't), at the local/state/federal levels. . .

I am FULLY aware of the differences within the two programs, and as recently as last week went through regulatory and compliance training for same as they relate to my work. How about you?  :roll eyes:

The fact is, the states that opted out of the healthcare insurance market places outlined by the ADA threw their citizens under the bus over their pandering to health insurers and covert racisim.  Moreover, the act of doing so substantially decreased federal subsidization for both state-run medicare and medicaid. . . Which is exactly why MOST users experienced stark changes to the state run programs. . .

Indiana's seems to be better and less expensive than Ky's Medicare wise. I am saying our friend in Ky is having to pay more money for less coverage than I do here in In and she is going through the same ins company for her supplemental.

Quote from: me on April 10, 2017, 12:54:58 PM
Indiana's seems to be better and less expensive than Ky's Medicare wise. I am saying our friend in Ky is having to pay more money for less coverage than I do here in In and she is going through the same ins company for her supplemental.

     Speaking of Kentucky, what has happened to Purple Lady.  :huh1:  Did they turn off the one light bulb they had, after they voted in Turtle Head McConnell.  :haha:  :haha:

Quote from: me on April 10, 2017, 12:54:58 PM
Indiana's seems to be better and less expensive than Ky's Medicare wise. I am saying our friend in Ky is having to pay more money for less coverage than I do here in In and she is going through the same ins company for her supplemental.

Again, wonder what happens when that reserve is gone. (And I believe it is about gone, if not gone already). . .

Quote from: Palehorse on April 11, 2017, 12:17:43 AM
Again, wonder what happens when that reserve is gone. (And I believe it is about gone, if not gone already). . .

What does whats going on in Indiana have to do with Medicare? I can see it affecting HIP or Medicaid but not Medicare or a supplement through an insurance company. I do not get help through the state on my Medicare but I realize some people do who qualify income wise.

Quote from: me on April 11, 2017, 09:05:10 AM
What does whats going on in Indiana have to do with Medicare? I can see it affecting HIP or Medicaid but not Medicare or a supplement through an insurance company. I do not get help through the state on my Medicare but I realize some people do who qualify income wise.

If I told you you would just dig up some right wing propaganda with which to dismiss it; then blame it on Obama when it smacks you squarely in the chops.

Do your research, read the information the state and fed government sends you, and discover the real reason why your costs and coverage are going to change for the worse. . .

I happen to be talking about now though not in the future. Yes, I care about the future costs and whether I can still go to the doctor/hospital of my choice but in this particular case I'm not talking about the future so why bring it up?

Quote from: me on April 11, 2017, 10:43:56 AM
I happen to be talking about now though not in the future. Yes, I care about the future costs and whether I can still go to the doctor/hospital of my choice but in this particular case I'm not talking about the future so why bring it up?

Forget I ever said a word about it. But I'll be sure to dig this up when it smacks you in the chops and you start squalling about it.

Question is, will you be willing to pay the cost? One other thing, have you ever looked at how much is actually paid to providers? I don't know how independent providers would manage if all patients were on Medicare. I'm not saying it won't work, just that there are some things to consider.

Quote from: Anne on April 14, 2017, 10:31:01 AM
Question is, will you be willing to pay the cost? One other thing, have you ever looked at how much is actually paid to providers? I don't know how independent providers would manage if all patients were on Medicare. I'm not saying it won't work, just that there are some things to consider.

No. The real question is are those of us that are insured willing to pay more for the shrinking items covered by our insurers, as the costs rise due to the write offs that transpire and expand exponentially as the ranks of the uninsured grow?

This was, and will be, the root cause for the skyrocketing costs of healthcare before the ACA became its poster child. The average citizen has never understood this and they still don't thanks to 8 years of bait and switch by the propagandists. It is the crutch that health insurers used before the ACA and is what allowed health insurers to become highly profitable. The wool they pulled over the American people's eyes.  :mad:

The annual write offs generated by these "unable to pay" patients was the health care industry's slush fund, and to a much reduced degree still is today. And it is this fact that drives health insurers to oppose the ACA.

.R. 1628 American Health Care Act of 2017
Don't take their word for it read it your self
Remember this is just a BILL not a LAW
I would suggest that you look up what needs to happen before this is a law.
It is sure the Liberals will never tell you anything about how it is done
Remember they past the Obama care at midnight Christmas eve while America was waiting on Santa clause ( Without one Republican vote)
June 22, 2017
H.R. 1628 American Health Care Act of 2017
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1628/text
https://www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr1628/BILLS-115hr1628pcs.pdf
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1628/text#toc-H12635F23D6014AFBA73B3E074D941C16

  A thing to think about, 49% of the babies born here in the United States, use Medicade.   :yes:  And the God Damn Republicans want to take it away and give the Super Rich a tax break.   :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :rant: :rant: :rant:

Quote from: The Troll on June 24, 2017, 06:44:02 AM

  A thing to think about, 49% of the babies born here in the United States, use Medicade.   :yes:  And the God Damn Republicans want to take it away and give the Super Rich a tax break.   :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :rant: :rant: :rant:

Read the actual bill fool.

Quote from: me on June 24, 2017, 11:31:21 AM
Read the actual bill fool.

  Are you telling me you read the whole bill.  :haha:  :haha:  :haha:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:   Give me a break.  :haha: :haha:

Quote from: The Troll on June 24, 2017, 01:29:13 PM

  Are you telling me you read the whole bill.  :haha:  :haha:  :haha:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:   Give me a break.  :haha: :haha:

That is the whole bill idiot. Did you read any of it?

Quote from: me on June 24, 2017, 07:03:34 PM
That is the whole bill idiot. Did you read any of it?

  Now where would I get the full bill.  Parts of it are still secret and not fully understood.   :yes:  It's a con game and a killer bill against the poorest and the defenseless people.   :rant:  You Republicans are animals, corrigen eaters and will be baby killers in the worse sense.  Murders of the young and the old and destitute.   :rant:  Zombies and the undead are your leaders and the people you worship!    :kneel:   The Republican Party is slimiest of the slime in a North Korean sewer.   :rant:


                      The Republican is the party of death and not the party of good and hope.  :trustme:


                                                          Idiot!

Quote from: The Troll on June 24, 2017, 07:51:13 PM

  Now where would I get the full bill.  Parts of it are still secret and not fully understood.   :yes:  It's a con game and a killer bill against the poorest and the defenseless people.   :rant:  You Republicans are animals, corrigen eaters and will be baby killers in the worse sense.  Murders of the young and the old and destitute.   :rant:  Zombies and the undead are your leaders and the people you worship!    :kneel:   The Republican Party is slimiest of the slime in a North Korean sewer.   :rant:


                      The Republican is the party of death and not the party of good and hope.  :trustme:


                                                          Idiot!

It was the Dems who wouldn't say what was in their bill, "you must pass it to find out what's in it", remember?

  And that plan gave 28 million people health insurance.   :yes:  And you ass hole want to kill it.  :finger2:   Dip Stick.   :rant:

Quote from: The Troll on June 24, 2017, 11:07:13 PM

  And that plan gave 28 million people health insurance.   :yes:  And you ass hole want to kill it.  :finger2:   Dip Stick.   :rant:

Obama care gave millions of people insurance.....of course the media doesn't tell you about the $10,000 deductible and $1,500 per month premium for millions.  I know this to be true.  I saw a friend of mines bill.  He has his own small business and is now struggling to keep his current employees.
MY BIL is a carpenter.....pays $800 a month and a $7,000 deductible.


I don't call that insurance.......they just don't go to the doctor anymore....they can't afford it!!!!!!

Another thing, a the vast majority of those without insurance was getting it free already!  They go to the ER and get whatever they need.  I know this, because my wife runs the ER at St. V's in Anderson.

I'm not saying this new bill is going to be great, but only because I don't know what all is in it.  Also, something to contemplate, if Trump gets the economy rolliing as Wall Street is believing.....the number of uninsured is going to drop dramatically.

Just my thoughts

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 26, 2017, 05:15:31 PM
Obama care gave millions of people insurance.....of course the media doesn't tell you about the $10,000 deductible and $1,500 per month premium for millions.  I know this to be true.  I saw a friend of mines bill.  He has his own small business and is now struggling to keep his current employees.
MY BIL is a carpenter.....pays $800 a month and a $7,000 deductible.


I don't call that insurance.......they just don't go to the doctor anymore....they can't afford it!!!!!!

Another thing, a the vast majority of those without insurance was getting it free already!  They go to the ER and get whatever they need.  I know this, because my wife runs the ER at St. V's in Anderson.

I'm not saying this new bill is going to be great, but only because I don't know what all is in it.  Also, something to contemplate, if Trump gets the economy rolliing as Wall Street is believing.....the number of uninsured is going to drop dramatically.

Just my thoughts

  "They go to ER and get what they want." That is a fucking lie, BUTT HEAD!!!!!  I was too the ER three times last week, thinking I had Pneumonia.  All they told me about my pain was, it wasn't a heart attack, it wasn't pneumonia and they thought it was Pleurisy of the chest and lungs.  They screwed up the CatScan and I had to go back for another one.  :mad: :rant: They told me, they don't know why people get it, but people will get it and it is very painful.  Believe me I know what the pain is, you can not breath very well also.  :rant:

  ER won't give a person any pain killer or drugs, but they always say,  SEE YOUR DOCTOR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and have him to give me some steroids to cool down the pain.  :rant: They told me to take TYLENOL and one of the Oxycondone pills I use for my lower back pain, they wouldn't even give me a Tylenol in ER to hold me over until I could get to a drug store.   :mad: :rant:
  Hell, maybe your wife is lying to you or you're lying about what she said.  That's all you Republicans can do is lie about everything.   :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :trustme: :dam:

  If you could tell the truth, just one time, I know even you would say it's a killer and bad health care bill. (TRUMPCARE)  :waaa: :waaa: :waaa: :waaa:  Just one question, why do you want to give the super 1%ers all that money. :doh:

The Republican plan won't fix that Hank. 

Our #1 problem with healthcare in the United States is that we let for-profit corporations have a majority say in what is and should be healthcare in this country.  Until we can disassociate those two, we'll remain behind the rest of the developed world in affordable care. 

That's the bottom line.

Quote from: Locutus on June 26, 2017, 07:19:53 PM
The Republican plan won't fix that Hank. 

Our #1 problem with healthcare in the United States is that we let for-profit corporations have a majority say in what is and should be healthcare in this country.  Until we can disassociate those two, we'll remain behind the rest of the developed world in affordable care. 

That's the bottom line.

  Health care should always be nonprofit.  With the for profit health care, health is not the main thing, it's profit and greed and how much the CEO makes a year.   :yes:  Just like the post office, the airports towers, weather service, highways, bridges, the FAA, food safety, drinking water safety, drug safety, the FBI, national parks and many, many other things where profit is not the main thing.   :yes:  If you want to fuck up something for sure, make it a predatory capitalism thing.   :rant:

Quote from: Locutus on June 26, 2017, 07:19:53 PM
The Republican plan won't fix that Hank. 

Our #1 problem with healthcare in the United States is that we let for-profit corporations have a majority say in what is and should be healthcare in this country.  Until we can disassociate those two, we'll remain behind the rest of the developed world in affordable care. 

That's the bottom line.

I disagree.......we had affordable healthcare here for years, until we let our federal government start butting in.....we need to open up competition in the market once again......and we will see affordable HC.

THAT IS the bottom line.

Quote from: The Troll on June 26, 2017, 07:19:05 PM
  "They go to ER and get what they want." That is a fucking lie, BUTT HEAD!!!!!  I was too the ER three times last week, thinking I had Pneumonia.  All they told me about my pain was, it wasn't a heart attack, it wasn't pneumonia and they thought it was Pleurisy of the chest and lungs.  They screwed up the CatScan and I had to go back for another one.  :mad: :rant: They told me, they don't know why people get it, but people will get it and it is very painful.  Believe me I know what the pain is, you can not breath very well also.  :rant:

  ER won't give a person any pain killer or drugs, but they always say,  SEE YOUR DOCTOR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and have him to give me some steroids to cool down the pain.  :rant: They told me to take TYLENOL and one of the Oxycondone pills I use for my lower back pain, they wouldn't even give me a Tylenol in ER to hold me over until I could get to a drug store.   :mad: :rant:
  Hell, maybe your wife is lying to you or you're lying about what she said.  That's all you Republicans can do is lie about everything.   :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :liar2: :trustme: :dam:

  If you could tell the truth, just one time, I know even you would say it's a killer and bad health care bill. (TRUMPCARE)  :waaa: :waaa: :waaa: :waaa:  Just one question, why do you want to give the super 1%ers all that money. :doh:

Shut up troll...you have NO clue.  Go watch TV and get a sandwich.

Quote from: me on June 23, 2017, 10:25:53 PM
.R. 1628 American Health Care Act of 2017
Don't take their word for it read it your self
Remember this is just a BILL not a LAW
I would suggest that you look up what needs to happen before this is a law.
It is sure the Liberals will never tell you anything about how it is done
Remember they past the Obama care at midnight Christmas eve while America was waiting on Santa clause ( Without one Republican vote)
June 22, 2017
H.R. 1628 American Health Care Act of 2017
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1628/text
https://www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr1628/BILLS-115hr1628pcs.pdf
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1628/text#toc-H12635F23D6014AFBA73B3E074D941C16

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 27, 2017, 10:04:30 AM
Shut up troll...you have NO clue.  Go watch TV and get a sandwich.

  Every time you open your mouth, you prove just how stupid you are.   :rant:  You whole life must be seen through a brown haze, the way you have had your head up your ass for so many years.  :haha:

  The Hawk and his nurse wife said,  "you can go to ER and get all the health care you need."  :haha:  :haha:  It's got to be that brown haze you live in FOOL!  :haha:  :haha:  :haha:

Nope that's not exactly what I said


But if you are poor, you will indeed get treatment....it's the law.


This is a fact.  If you have insurance then you pay.


Many call an ambulance for a stomach ache... get treated, then demand a taxi cab ride home, and don't pay a dime.  This is a fact.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 27, 2017, 07:08:22 PM
Nope that's not exactly what I said


But if you are poor, you will indeed get treatment....it's the law.


This is a fact.  If you have insurance then you pay.


Many call an ambulance for a stomach ache... get treated, then demand a taxi cab ride home, and don't pay a dime.  This is a fact.

And here we go again. We've had this conversation going all the way back to before the ACA was even written.

YOU pay for them. I payfor them. EVERYONE with insurance pays for those who go to a hospital without insurance and receives treatment.

We pay for it in the form of increased premiums imposed upon us by health insurers. We pay for it when medical treatment facilities incorporate the treatment of these individuals into the pricing for their treatments during the AOP phase of their planning annually.

A 25 thousand dollar routine heart cath procedure in 2017 goes up to 35 thousand dollars. A routine tonsillectomy costing 16 grand goes to 25 grand. Suturing and disinfecting a 6 centimeter wound goes from 2500 bucks to 4 thousand. . . Etc. . .

Only those of us with insurance get double shafted by both the insurance companies in the for of higher premiums and deductibles, and by the medical providers in the form of higher treatment bills. So that 20% your insurance doesn't cover goes up exponentially.

All to cover the costs associated with "the law" requiring medical entities to treat those without insurance.

In reality, all this new bill is going to do is reach a LOT DEEPER into the pockets of those that carry insurance, and further fatten the bottom lines of insurance companies and hospitals; both of which operate on the same business plans as every Fortune 500 company these days.

The ACA tackled this already out of control situation. It was not perfect, and the congressional tinkering made it far worse than it was. And now that they've lied to the masses for over a decade about it, they're realizing it isn't perfect, but nowhere as big as a FUBAR as their own bill is. And the conservatives in congress are now in the trick bag over it all.

They impose all of the cuts listed and the majority of those sitting in congress today will lose their positions by being voted out in droves as each election cycle occurs. And they know it. Which is exactly why they're stalling, and an ever increasing number of them are taking to the media and speaking out against it.

It's all lipstick on the pig now. They ran on a lie , got elected, and cannot deliver. And they know that too.

This bill will end up depriving the average American household of 40% of their take home pay when you factor in the inreased premiums, out of pocket expenses, deductibles, and the resulting insureds responsibility for each bill. And that will go over like a beer and boiled egg fart in church. Especially with the fact the average workers hourly wage is already 30 to 45 % less than it was just 15 years ago.

Next, I predict they will exaggerate a global event and use it to start another war; in a last ditch effort to divert the average citizens attention from their ever shrinking personal income streams.  :mad:  :mad:

Quote from: Palehorse on June 28, 2017, 12:54:23 AM
And here we go again. We've had this conversation going all the way back to before the ACA was even written.

YOU pay for them. I payfor them. EVERYONE with insurance pays for those who go to a hospital without insurance and receives treatment.

We pay for it in the form of increased premiums imposed upon us by health insurers. We pay for it when medical treatment facilities incorporate the treatment of these individuals into the pricing for their treatments during the AOP phase of their planning annually.

A 25 thousand dollar routine heart cath procedure in 2017 goes up to 35 thousand dollars. A routine tonsillectomy costing 16 grand goes to 25 grand. Suturing and disinfecting a 6 centimeter wound goes from 2500 bucks to 4 thousand. . . Etc. . .

Only those of us with insurance get double shafted by both the insurance companies in the for of higher premiums and deductibles, and by the medical providers in the form of higher treatment bills. So that 20% your insurance doesn't cover goes up exponentially.

All to cover the costs associated with "the law" requiring medical entities to treat those without insurance.

In reality, all this new bill is going to do is reach a LOT DEEPER into the pockets of those that carry insurance, and further fatten the bottom lines of insurance companies and hospitals; both of which operate on the same business plans as every Fortune 500 company these days.

The ACA tackled this already out of control situation. It was not perfect, and the congressional tinkering made it far worse than it was. And now that they've lied to the masses for over a decade about it, they're realizing it isn't perfect, but nowhere as big as a FUBAR as their own bill is. And the conservatives in congress are now in the trick bag over it all.

They impose all of the cuts listed and the majority of those sitting in congress today will lose their positions by being voted out in droves as each election cycle occurs. And they know it. Which is exactly why they're stalling, and an ever increasing number of them are taking to the media and speaking out against it.

It's all lipstick on the pig now. They ran on a lie , got elected, and cannot deliver. And they know that too.

This bill will end up depriving the average American household of 40% of their take home pay when you factor in the increased premiums, out of pocket expenses, deductibles, and the resulting insureds responsibility for each bill. And that will go over like a beer and boiled egg fart in church. Especially with the fact the average workers hourly wage is already 30 to 45 % less than it was just 15 years ago.

Next, I predict they will exaggerate a global event and use it to start another war; in a last ditch effort to divert the average citizens attention from their ever shrinking personal income streams.  :mad:  :mad:

  OH, OH, you know about boiled eggs and beer farts.  So do I, one morning  I let one on the assembly line at Ford and I thought the guys there was going to kill me.  :haha:

  But one thing about them egg and beer farts, they don't smell as bad as the stench coming from the Republican Party in Washington DC.   :rant:  I just hate Turtle Head McConnell, just think he's got special government health insurance.  I sure would like to see him come down with some disease that poor people can't get treated for.  He and his fellow beer farts have exempted themselves from the Republican TrumpCare health insurance.   :rant:

  Yep, old fart head Hawk sure knows about affordable health care.  When he was just a little fart, his dad use the health insurance the United Auto Workers Union negotiated from General Motors to pay for the little fart's health care.   :rant:

It's to bad they didn't have mental health insurance for little Fart Hawk.  Now he hates unions and love the idea of Republican (TrumpCare) health insurance.  Yep, Old Fart Hawk was born without a working brain.  :cry:  :cry:  :haha:

I know we are the one's paying for them PH.  We are always going to pay for them in some fashion.  I accept that.  My point was, THEY (poor) already HAD insurance, so to speak. 
But Obamacare didn't help them but it HURT the middle-class!  As a general, we pay MORE for LESS...but Obama PROMISED us that we would KEEP our DR's, KEEP our Insurance and he said our HC costs would go down by $2,500! He lied! and he knew it.


Fed Gov ran programs are MOSTLY failures....this is just another example, in the line of many.


Say what you will, but YOU don't KNOW what this bill is going to do, because they don't even HAVE a bill right now and it is STILL in negotiaitons.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 28, 2017, 08:59:47 AM
I know we are the one's paying for them PH.  We are always going to pay for them in some fashion.  I accept that.  My point was, THEY (poor) already HAD insurance, so to speak. 
But Obamacare didn't help them but it HURT the middle-class!  As a general, we pay MORE for LESS...but Obama PROMISED us that we would KEEP our DR's, KEEP our Insurance and he said our HC costs would go down by $2,500! He lied! and he knew it.


Fed Gov ran programs are MOSTLY failures....this is just another example, in the line of many.


Say what you will, but YOU don't KNOW what this bill is going to do, because they don't even HAVE a bill right now and it is STILL in negotiaitons.

I know what's in it in the current version. Absolutely. I also know everything I posted above is truth supported by the contents of that bill and factual.

I never said the ACA was perfect. Never. But by comparison to that tripe they're trying to float it is stellar.

You think the ACA wrecked the middle class, just wait until they pass this one. We will all be hammered by it and it will ruin millions of middle class families financially.

Quote from: Palehorse on June 28, 2017, 10:51:48 AM
I know what's in it in the current version. Absolutely. I also know everything I posted above is truth supported by the contents of that bill and factual.

I never said the ACA was perfect. Never. But by comparison to that tripe they're trying to float it is stellar.

You think the ACA wrecked the middle class, just wait until they pass this one. We will all be hammered by it and it will ruin millions of middle class families financially.

But nothing has passed.  They are still working on it.  You Don't Know. 

What I know is, the current HC bill is crap!  It is seriously hurting many good folks.  I'm tired of the focus being on the "poor".  They will get HC no matter what happens.  People who are hurting NOW, need help and need help fast.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 28, 2017, 02:44:13 PM
But nothing has passed.  They are still working on it.  You Don't Know. 

What I know is, the current HC bill is crap!  It is seriously hurting many good folks.  I'm tired of the focus being on the "poor".  They will get HC no matter what happens.  People who are hurting NOW, need help and need help fast.

  I know one thing for sure, I sure wouldn't want you, Henry Hawk to run American Health Care.   :mad: :mad: :rant:

  If you did, I would go out and buy stock to cemeteries, and undertaker service and cheap pine box caskets.   :mad: :mad: :mad:  Because everyone poor and sick would just die, because you would let them die. :dead:  Absolutely no heart and no soul, what a moron.    :ogod: :jc:  :rolleyes: :mad: :rant:

  Oh, one more thing, is the American taxpayer paying for you son's health insurance.   :confused: :rolleyes:

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 28, 2017, 02:44:13 PM
But nothing has passed.  They are still working on it.  You Don't Know. 

What I know is, the current HC bill is crap!  It is seriously hurting many good folks.  I'm tired of the focus being on the "poor".  They will get HC no matter what happens.  People who are hurting NOW, need help and need help fast.

Again. . .🙄

  I have a question for anyone of intelligence.   :confused:  Would you buy for yourself or a friend anything from a salesman who's statements about his products are 90% lies and untruths   :confused:  :blah: :liar2: :@#%&: 
 
  We now have a person in the White House, the President of the United States who is a pathological liar.  Everything he says is a lie or lying fabrication.  Anyone with one common brain cell of truth will say he is a liar.   :rant:

  Today with a satisfaction rating of 27%,  below the loyal Republican Party base, some idiots say, "WELL, GIVE HIM A CHANCE."

                           :zoners:  :haha:  :haha:  :haha:  :haha:   :haha:  :rotfl:   :rotfl:   :rotfl:  He is a joke.  :trustme:

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 27, 2017, 07:08:22 PM
Nope that's not exactly what I said


But if you are poor, you will indeed get treatment....it's the law.


This is a fact.  If you have insurance then you pay.


Many call an ambulance for a stomach ache... get treated, then demand a taxi cab ride home, and don't pay a dime.  This is a fact.

  Another "GIVE ME A BREAK, HAWK!"  Just how many calls do they get for an ambulance for upset stomach.  Don't you know that if could be an bleeding ulcer, aneurysm, twisted bowel.   :rant: :rant: :rant:  C'mon doctor Hawk, give us all a break.  You sure can come up with some stupid reasons to lie about the treatment a person can get a ER to support your Republican dogma.  :doh:

  Just last week I thought I had pneumonia, I couldn't breath right, went to ER and after X-rays, cardiogram, exam by doctor.  The doctor said, I didn't have pneumonia, didn't have a heart attack, but I have a severe case of lung cavity Pleurisy which has the symptoms of pneumonia.  I was in severe pain and they didn't give me one thing for the pain, but said "go" take some Tylenol and go to see my doctor, which took 3 day to get appointment.

  So MR. HAWK, quit practicing  medicine and putting out false and lying information.    You must be Trump clone.  :haha:


                             HAWK IS A DUMBASS, HAWK IS A DUMBASS, HAWK IS A DUMBASS.  :zoners:  :bsflag:

Listen dumbass.........all I'm doing is telling YOU a FACT.  People will call 911 and say they are sick.  Knowingly that they have the flu.  The get a free ride to the hospital.  They get an IV and FREE prescriptions and then, they demand a ride back home, so the hospital calls them a cab and PAYS for it.


This is all true and happens on a regular basis.


This is another reason why we have a healthcare problem.


People who have NO stake in the game can CARE FUCKING less....as long as you and I are paying for it, they don't care.


We have a whole generation of folks who are being raised into thinking this way......and it needs to stop.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 30, 2017, 01:49:18 PM
Listen dumbass.........all I'm doing is telling YOU a FACT.  People will call 911 and say they are sick.  Knowingly that they have the flu.  The get a free ride to the hospital.  They get an IV and FREE prescriptions and then, they demand a ride back home, so the hospital calls them a cab and PAYS for it.


This is all true and happens on a regular basis.


This is another reason why we have a healthcare problem.


People who have NO stake in the game can CARE FUCKING less....as long as you and I are paying for it, they don't care.


We have a whole generation of folks who are being raised into thinking this way......and it needs to stop.

   Again DR. Hawk, you are a liar, just what  percent of the health care budget does these few people cost.  You talked your son into going in to the Army for a FREE education, FREE health care and that health care pays for his family too.  All paid for by the American taxpayers.  As far as I am concerned, if he has not went to battle in Iraq, Afghanistan, he has not earned a one dime for what he has receive in Amy pay.
               HAWK AND HIS PRESDENT TRUMP ARE FUCKING LIARS AND I WOULD LIKE TO PUT A STOP TO THAT! now

                     THUMP NOW WANTS TO AXE THE HEALTH CARE PLAN AND REPLACE IT WITH NOTHING.