Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 22, 2014, 11:10:34 AM
Over the coarse of years, I have found that my FAITH has kept me on the straight and narrow.
Once again I'm going to ask you what relation faith has to morality?
Are you suggesting that you have no inner moral compass and that your morality had to be imposed from an exterior source?
I always love this discussion and I'll offer more of my personal opinion as the discussion gets underway, but first I'd like to share a quote that I believe is right on...
Quote"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of s***. And I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. You gotta get together and tell yourself stories that violate every law of the universe just to get through the goddamn day? What's that say about your reality?"
Rust Cohle
http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/03/12/true-detective-13-rust-cohle-quotes-for-the-ages
:food4:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 22, 2014, 09:35:21 PM
I always love this discussion and I'll offer more of my personal opinion as the discussion gets underway, but first I'd like to share a quote that I believe is right on...
Rust Cohle
http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/03/12/true-detective-13-rust-cohle-quotes-for-the-ages
Quote from: Y on April 22, 2014, 05:56:23 PM
Once again I'm going to ask you what relation faith has to morality?
Are you suggesting that you have no inner moral compass and that your morality had to be imposed from an exterior source?
First of all, I am not suggesting anything. I merely stated that I found MY FAITH has kept ME on the straight and narrow. Millions and Millions of people throught out history has this SAME concept because of FAITH in God. To claim that a person is a peice of shit because of this is just more evidence that those who choose to NOT beleive has a larger motive other than being atheist. I found that many of those folks are just hateful.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 23, 2014, 08:12:13 AM
First of all, I am not suggesting anything. I merely stated that I found MY FAITH has kept ME on the straight and narrow. Millions and Millions of people throught out history has this SAME concept because of FAITH in God. To claim that a person is a peice of shit because of this is just more evidence that those who choose to NOT beleive has a larger motive other than being atheist. I found that many of those folks are just hateful.
I don't need a god to keep me straight. :rolleyes: I got my conscience, my wife and the law to keep me straight. :biggrin:
Quote from: The Troll on April 23, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
I don't need a god to keep me straight. :rolleyes: I got my conscience, my wife and the law to keep me straight. :biggrin:
Your poor wife sure does have her hands full!!! :eek: ;D
now that you mention it...........my wife plays a big part in mine too! :yes: But, then she has a strong faith too. Hey, It works for us.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 23, 2014, 08:12:13 AM
First of all, I am not suggesting anything. I merely stated that I found MY FAITH has kept ME on the straight and narrow. Millions and Millions of people throught out history has this SAME concept because of FAITH in God. To claim that a person is a peice of shit because of this is just more evidence that those who choose to NOT beleive has a larger motive other than being atheist. I found that many of those folks are just hateful.
My BS detector is in the red zone.
I find that people who are atheist or agnostic have a higher level of character and social responsibility than many of the religious folk claiming that a supreme being greases their moral compass. Why should they behave? They've got the excuse of free will and satan to pass the buck of responsibility and guess what? They can always ask for forgiveness and turn around and continue the low character behavior. Just gotta say a prayer and all is good.
People without those excuses tend to do the right thing because it IS the right thing.
I personally find it sad that some people can't be strong enough to be responsible with claiming the power of an imaginary crutch.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 23, 2014, 09:11:24 PM
My BS detector is in the red zone.
I find that people who are atheist or agnostic have a higher level of character and social responsibility than many of the religious folk claiming that a supreme being greases their moral compass. Why should they behave? They've got the excuse of free will and Satan to pass the buck of responsibility and guess what? They can always ask for forgiveness and turn around and continue the low character behavior. Just gotta say a prayer and all is good.
People without those excuses tend to do the right thing because it IS the right thing.
I personally find it sad that some people can't be strong enough to be responsible with claiming the power of an imaginary crutch.
Amen Sandy :treehug: Let them :pray: :preach: :pope: and fornicate. :grin2:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 23, 2014, 09:11:24 PM
My BS detector is in the red zone.
I find that people who are atheist or agnostic have a higher level of character and social responsibility than many of the religious folk claiming that a supreme being greases their moral compass. Why should they behave? They've got the excuse of free will and satan to pass the buck of responsibility and guess what? They can always ask for forgiveness and turn around and continue the low character behavior. Just gotta say a prayer and all is good.
People without those excuses tend to do the right thing because it IS the right thing.
I personally find it sad that some people can't be strong enough to be responsible with claiming the power of an imaginary crutch.
I actually tend to agree with you to an extent. Yes, there are plenty of "religious" good-freakin-two-shoed butt-holes, who are, in my opinion big time assholes, who shove their beliefs and can be the nastiest, most unloving pricks on the face of the earth. But, I also know plenty of atheists who wear a chip on their shoulders who love to ridicule, and demonize good folks who believe.
I think it sad that some people can't get past the fact the FAITH and GOD is important to many.... MILLIONS of folks who are wonderful, caring, giving folks.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 24, 2014, 09:29:18 AM
I actually tend to agree with you to an extent. Yes, there are plenty of "religious" good-freakin-two-shoed butt-holes, who are, in my opinion big time assholes, who shove their beliefs and can be the nastiest, most unloving pricks on the face of the earth. But, I also know plenty of atheists who wear a chip on their shoulders who love to ridicule, and demonize good folks who believe.
I think it sad that some people can't get past the fact the FAITH and GOD is important to many.... MILLIONS of folks who are wonderful, caring, giving folks.
Henry, strictly hypothetical, but don't you think you'd still be a moral person even if you weren't a Christian? Is your belief in God the only thing that keeps your from lying, stealing and cheating?
I also agree with you re: people of faith (not just Christians). I know many who are humble, loving and giving people, but I can't imagine they'd be any different without religion.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 24, 2014, 10:44:42 PM
Henry, strictly hypothetical, but don't you think you'd still be a moral person even if you weren't a Christian? Is your belief in God the only thing that keeps your from lying, stealing and cheating?
Sandy, please don't get me wrong and think that I think you HAVE to be a person of faith to be a good person. My own father has never been a "religious" man, but is one of the most giving and kind person I have ever known. I'm certain, I am the way I am because of him AND my mother, who also never attended Church and was extremely loving and giving. So YES, I would have been a very moral person WITHOUT being a Christian. So don't get me wrong, I do not think that calling yourself a Christian makes a person better than the next guy.
What I get from being a Christian, is faith. Faith that there IS INDEED, something much bigger than what this world has to offer. That there is a GOD, that there is a Son of God and that there is INDEED an enternal life after this one. A faith that assures me when times get hard, that I will endure it. My Faith gives me confidence. It brings me peace, comfort and contentment.
Believing in God doesn't keep you from lying, stealing and cheating.....I think everybody, regardless of religion, has to deal with those things there own way.
I am kind of rambing, but to sum it up, for me, having faith keeps my chin up, when things get tough. Helps me love when I want to hate, to laugh when I want to cry.
I am not preaching or suggesting anything, but THIS is what works for me and my family. I wouldn't want it any other way.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 25, 2014, 08:50:03 AM
Sandy, please don't get me wrong and think that I think you HAVE to be a person of faith to be a good person. My own father has never been a "religious" man, but is one of the most giving and kind person I have ever known. I'm certain, I am the way I am because of him AND my mother, who also never attended Church and was extremely loving and giving. So YES, I would have been a very moral person WITHOUT being a Christian. So don't get me wrong, I do not think that calling yourself a Christian makes a person better than the next guy.
What I get from being a Christian, is faith. Faith that there IS INDEED, something much bigger than what this world has to offer. That there is a GOD, that there is a Son of God and that there is INDEED an enternal life after this one. A faith that assures me when times get hard, that I will endure it. My Faith gives me confidence. It brings me peace, comfort and contentment.
Believing in God doesn't keep you from lying, stealing and cheating.....I think everybody, regardless of religion, has to deal with those things there own way.
I am kind of rambing, but to sum it up, for me, having faith keeps my chin up, when things get tough. Helps me love when I want to hate, to laugh when I want to cry.
I am not preaching or suggesting anything, but THIS is what works for me and my family. I wouldn't want it any other way.
Yes Sir, you can thank your dad, General Motors and the UAW. :thumbs: :smile:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 25, 2014, 08:50:03 AM
What I get from being a Christian, is faith. Faith that there IS INDEED, something much bigger than what this world has to offer. That there is a GOD, that there is a Son of God and that there is INDEED an enternal life after this one. A faith that assures me when times get hard, that I will endure it. My Faith gives me confidence. It brings me peace, comfort and contentment.
To me those comments say that a crutch is required to face the reality of the world as it is.
What is there to fear about this world and form of existence being all there is?
Why do you need an authoritarian, daddy - yeah, always male - figure, and his son somewhere up there in the sky to enable you to do, be, and feel all those things?
Why do you have to limit this amazing and wonderful universe and our place in it to some petty jealous god and demi-god, based on exaggerated versions of ourselves, who supposedly rule the entire universe, but are so inept this one small planet can't be run to their tale of heaven.
I just don't get it, and never have.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2wqeag9.jpg)
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on May 14, 2014, 09:41:49 PM
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2wqeag9.jpg)
That pretty much sums it up IMHO
Quote from: me on May 14, 2014, 09:49:16 PM
That pretty much sums it up IMHO
Now this one thing I can agree with you on, good work :me: :tiphat:
Quote from: The Troll on May 14, 2014, 10:42:29 PM
Now this one thing I can agree with you on, good work :me: :tiphat:
:eek: :spooked:
Quote from: Y on April 29, 2014, 09:20:30 PM
To me those comments say that a crutch is required to face the reality of the world as it is.
What is there to fear about this world and form of existence being all there is?
Why do you need an authoritarian, daddy - yeah, always male - figure, and his son somewhere up there in the sky to enable you to do, be, and feel all those things?
Why do you have to limit this amazing and wonderful universe and our place in it to some petty jealous god and demi-god, based on exaggerated versions of ourselves, who supposedly rule the entire universe, but are so inept this one small planet can't be run to their tale of heaven.
I just don't get it, and never have.
and that is okay........you don't HAVE to get it. But, the fact is there was indeed a Jesus. Nobody says you HAVE to believe in His teachings, but nearly 4 BILLION people who have lived and died, decided to believe it. No one person is as famous as Jesus. There is not ONE person who has changed the world as did this guy. We date our calendars based upon His existence. He was/is an amazing teacher of morals. I could go on and on...but for me, it is easy to get. Not at all complicating.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 08:38:48 AM
and that is okay........you don't HAVE to get it. But, the fact is there was indeed a Jesus. Nobody says you HAVE to believe in His teachings, but nearly 4 BILLION people who have lived and died, decided to believe it. No one person is as famous as Jesus. There is not ONE person who has changed the world as did this guy. We date our calendars based upon His existence. He was/is an amazing teacher of morals. I could go on and on...but for me, it is easy to get. Not at all complicating.
And also 4 billion people believe the earth is only 4,000 years old. :wink: Dinosaurs where here at the same time people was here. :wink: And prayers really work. :pray: Who wrong about this. Hummmmmmmm. :jc:
Quote from: The Troll on May 15, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
And also 4 billion people believe the earth is only 4,000 years old. :wink: Dinosaurs where here at the same time people was here. :wink: And prayers really work. :pray: Who wrong about this. Hummmmmmmm. :jc:
Other than the earth being only 4,000 years old, can you prove that prayers really don't work or even that Dinosaurs where not here at the same time people were?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 09:32:59 AM
Other than the earth being only 4,000 years old, can you prove that prayers really don't work or even that Dinosaurs where not here at the same time people were?
It has been proven many times that people did not exist during the time of the dinosaurs time. Prayer, can you prove it works. Since 1844 the Our Lady of Lourdes in Lourdes France has had over 100 million people pray, drink and swim in the holy water, buy the water, it is suppose to have and the Catholic church only recognizes only 7 miracles and the last one was in 1923. :yes: Something to think about about. :rolleyes: If prayers :pray: really worked there would be no crippled children and no dead Christians. :ogod: :jc:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 09:32:59 AM
Other than the earth being only 4,000 years old, can you prove that prayers really don't work or even that Dinosaurs where not here at the same time people were?
Some people believe that dinosaurs are still here. They call them birds. :wink:
But seriously, Henry ... do you believe that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time?
Quote from: The Troll on May 15, 2014, 09:53:44 AM
It has been proven many times that people did not exist during the time of the dinosaurs time. Prayer, can you prove it works. Since 1844 the Our Lady of Lourdes in Lourdes France has had over 100 million people pray, drink and swim in the holy water, buy the water, it is suppose to have and the Catholic church only recognizes only 7 miracles and the last one was in 1923. :yes: Something to think about about. :rolleyes: If prayers :pray: really worked there would be no crippled children and no dead Christians. :ogod: :jc:
Nothing against you Troll, but I knew better than to even go down this road....I screwed up. It is an argument that cannot be won. I have decided to choose my battles. THIS isn't one that I am going to attempt. It would prove to be useless.
No, you don't need religion to be a good, moral human being. But, I think it is foolish to think that our moral values we practice today had NOTHING at all to do with God. I am quite certain our forefathers utilized the Holy Bible as a moral compass. It has passed on from generation to generation. It is just common sense.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 10:09:43 AM
Nothing against you Troll, but I knew better than to even go down this road....I screwed up. It is an argument that cannot be won. I have decided to choose my battles. THIS isn't one that I am going to attempt. It would prove to be useless.
No, you don't need religion to be a good, moral human being. But, I think it is foolish to think that our moral values we practice today had NOTHING at all to do with God. I am quite certain our forefathers utilized the Holy Bible as a moral compass. It has passed on from generation to generation. It is just common sense.
Quote from: Bo D on May 15, 2014, 09:56:47 AM
Some people believe that dinosaurs are still here. They call them birds. :wink:
But seriously, Henry ... do you believe that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time?
Some scientist believe that birds evolved from the dinosaurs Bo D. But a Roman Caesar formed the Bible to cloud the mind of the Sheeple to control them. Promise them heaven which cost nothing and give them nothing and give the leaders control. :yes:
Bo, I think it is very possible that humans lived among enormous creatures such as dinosaurs....there are many paintings and carvings in caves showing "dinosaur-like" creatures....perhaps not a dinosaur.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 10:18:46 AM
Bo, I think it is very possible that humans lived among enormous creatures such as dinosaurs....there are many paintings and carvings in caves showing "dinosaur-like" creatures....perhaps not a dinosaur.
Okie dokie then .....
Quote from: Bo D on May 15, 2014, 11:13:31 AM
Okie dokie then .....
That's why we're totally screwed unless we can educate the public and especially the children.
Quote from: Locutus on May 15, 2014, 11:59:41 AM
That's why we're totally screwed
REALLY? You HONESTLY believe we are screwed?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 12:01:29 PM
REALLY? You HONESTLY believe we are screwed?
When science and education are scorned, yes, we're screwed.
Quote from: Locutus on May 15, 2014, 12:08:25 PM
When science and education are scorned, yes, we're screwed.
What did I say that SCORNED science and education?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 12:11:32 PM
What did I say that SCORNED science and education?
Nothing.
I was speaking in generalities. Science and education are scorned somewhat in this country.
Quote from: Locutus on May 15, 2014, 12:22:47 PM
Nothing.
I was speaking in generalities. Science and education are scorned somewhat in this country.
I 100% agree with you, but probably for different reasons.... :yes: ;)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 12:25:13 PM
I 100% agree with you, but probably for different reasons.... :yes: ;)
Examples?
Quote from: Locutus on May 15, 2014, 11:59:41 AM
That's why we're totally screwed unless we can educate the public and especially the children.
I'm getting old and tired of fighting ignorance. I don't think I have the stamina anymore. I'll keep trying with my grandchildren if needed. But I doubt I will be needed.
I We raised my daughters correctly. They are very capable of carrying on.
WTF?
I realize that is not real clear, and perhaps I was going a different way than Locutus was leaning....but, regarding education....the NEA, in my opinion, is a bad mark against our educational system. The children are NOT first and foremost with them.....and it is screwing them out of being properly educated.
And you're basing that judgement on what?
Quote from: Exterminator on May 15, 2014, 01:18:32 PM
And you're basing that judgement on what?
On that it is more of a lobbying group and more concerned with the federal government involvement and keeping worthless teachers employed rather than spending the money on the kids. $50 million just in political activities and lobbyists. That is how I am basing my judgement.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 01:25:00 PM
On that it is more of a lobbying group and more concerned with the federal government involvement and keeping worthless teachers employed rather than spending the money on the kids. $50 million just in political activities and lobbyists. That is how I am basing my judgement.
But Henry, I hate to say this again, you are a Scab and you hate unions. :yes: Just look at the states that are controlled by Republican governors. :eyes: The first thing they do is kill the unions, cut wages of the teachers and cut money to public education and take money from public schools and give to a profit based Charter Schools. :mad: :mad:
And guess what they still have bad teachers, many are friends of the same politicians who cut the school budgets. :mad: :mad: Education should not be a profit based enterprise. :yes: The first thing these Charter Schools is cut the amount of education so they can make more profit and more money for is top leaders and CEO. :mad:
Think :whatever: :think: :idea3: Henry. :doh:
Quote from: The Troll on May 15, 2014, 01:39:11 PM
But Henry, I hate to say this again, you are a Scab and you hate unions.
Not completely true Troll. I think the IBEW is a very decent union. I despise the UAW for the very reasons PH mentioned...."You and your generation, sold out their future in favor of your own"...it became very, very greedy and NOW WE are paying the price for that greediness.
Quote from: The Troll on May 15, 2014, 01:39:11 PM
:yes: Just look at the states that are controlled by Republican governors. :eyes: The first thing they do is kill the unions, cut wages of the teachers and cut money to public education and take money from public schools and give to a profit based Charter Schools. :mad: :mad:
And guess what they still have bad teachers, many are friends of the same politicians who cut the school budgets. :mad: :mad: Education should not be a profit based enterprise. :yes: The first thing these Charter Schools is cut the amount of education so they can make more profit and more money for is top leaders and CEO. :mad:
Think :whatever: :think: :idea3: Henry. :doh:
GOP Governors merely want to return the powers of decision for education back to the State and Local levels, which is where is should be.
The NEA spends hundreds of millions on everything BUT the kids. $50 million just in political action and lobbyists.
You complain about Charter Schools overpaying CEO's but don't mention one thing about a failing teacher being overpaid. You may be right that CEO's are being overpaid....and that may be very wrong if they are. But we need results, and since the NEA has been around, we have been sucking hind tit on education. There MIGHT JUST be a problem there.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 15, 2014, 02:45:42 PM
Not completely true Troll. I think the IBEW is a very decent union. I despise the UAW for the very reasons PH mentioned...."You and your generation, sold out their future in favor of your own"...it became very, very greedy and NOW WE are paying the price for that greediness.
GOP Governors merely want to return the powers of decision for education back to the State and Local levels, which is where is should be.
The NEA spends hundreds of millions on everything BUT the kids. $50 million just in political action and lobbyists.
You complain about Charter Schools overpaying CEO's but don't mention one thing about a failing teacher being overpaid. You may be right that CEO's are being overpaid....and that may be very wrong if they are. But we need results, and since the NEA has been around, we have been sucking hind tit on education. There MIGHT JUST be a problem there.
What do you mean that you are reaping the loss from the auto unions getting in good contract for their working people. :doh: I don't think you have suffered one moment. :rant: I know your dad is not suffering. :yes: But the auto worker have gave up concessions and wages and benefits, so what are you still bitching about. :rolleyes: :sarcasm:
You keep talking about bad teachers, just what percent of bad teachers are there. I hear of no bad teachers here in my school district or Pendleton or Fortville or Noblesville, there might be some bad ones in Anderson, but that would be a teeny tiny small percent. Again and pardon my old statement, Henry you don't know shit and what you hear comes from Turdblossom Rove, Hannity, Glen Beck and Fox News. :busted: