QuoteWith the flourish, in recent years, of popular and widely accessible debates on this subject, the arguments coming from the theistic side have very quickly become predictable, stale, old, and even less convincing than they may have been the first time they were used.
This debate has to change. Theists - when all of your arguments have been debunked, and you keep spouting them anyway, congratulations - you're not convincing anyone except the credulous and weak minded. Are you proud of that?
I've often thought of opening up a second channel on youtube, on which I could engage in some debates with other users, but every time I ponder the idea I realise that 90% of the time I'd just be bringing people up to speed on what has already been answered a million times in the past. Screw that.
The way I see it, this debate ended a few decades ago. Everything that had been brought to the table then is what we're still seeing being brought to the table now. What we "new" or "affirmative" atheists are doing is trying to knock some nails into the coffin so that this whole thing can be put to rest in what Sam Harris so eloquently calls "the vast graveyard of mythology".
Theists - you simply must educate yourself before you go opening your mouth about all these tired old topics. Evolution. 20th century killers. The U.S. constitution. Atheism and atheists, and what it actually is that they DON'T believe. When you spout them- you get knocked down by the sheer force of facts. When you spout them and then get corrected and shown convincingly that your argument is in fact false, --- and then spout them again - I'm lost for words. Where is the virtue in that? Where? How can you be proud of that? How can you support others whom you see doing that?
I just simply, truly, and sincerely don't understand why christian theists aren't red with embarrassment that in these debates, their side so constantly and obviously relies on misinformation, falsehood and ignorance. How many times does one need to be told that 2 + 2 = 4 before they will stop insisting that it = 7?
I. Just. Do. Not. Understand. This. Situation.
Why. WHY!?!?!?
Of course not all christians are like this. And not even all of the christians who engage in debate are like this. To those sensible christians, I have this to say:
Why not join us in criticizing intellectual dishonesty like this even when it comes from your side? People who knowingly proclaim falsehoods from the podium (or pulpit) are not doing your side any favors in regards to spreading your message or enhancing your side's credibility (which is, you might have noticed, in crisis). People who do it are a liability to you.
One commenter suggested that I should have revealed at the end of the video that the moderator was in fact a christian, concerned with honesty and veracity. I wish I had included that. It would have made the video a hundred times better, but alas - 'tis too late.
'Tis not too late for you, though. Please join us, for everyone's sake, in insisting that debates like this come to be characterized by honesty and intellectual integrity. In what other field of human endeavor or discourse does willful ignorance take center stage so consistently?
Right-wing lunatics - get over this paranoia about socialism. And perhaps educate yourself even slightly about what socialism is and means. If you do, you might find that it has not very much at all to do with Democrats and Barack Obama - - - certainly not as much to do with THEM as it has to do with Jesus Christ.
Right-wing paranoia over socialism is an insult to the memory of the people who died in actual socialist societies due to actual socialist policies.
Fascinating and well worth the ten minutes to view. I hope there is a 'debate' over this one :)
After watching what a poor ass job God (if he existed) has done with this world and how he has treated his people, if he exist, he needs to be fiired.
Anyone who can believe all of the smoke, mirrors, holy water and B.S. the false religious leaders has put out as the truth. Has to have a loose wire.
I have as a general rule NOT to get caught in arguements about Christianity or God...but here is a video, about 6 minutes long if you care to watch, that in my opinion, does a very nice job at explaining the existence of God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIS6cHowt3s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIS6cHowt3s)
This point was made in my video. How can you use the book you're trying to prove, as proof. You can't. The fact that someone had the nerve to call the video "scientific proof" made me laugh out loud. What the bible says and how it's interpreted isn't any different than the work of Nostradamus or how it was interpreted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus
Which one is more factual? It depends on perspective and interpretation.
Using the Christianity method, vampires, werewolves, and non-terristrial life forms are real and Stephen Kings works are the proof! :icon_twisted:
My favorite argument for the existence of God is called the "Northwestern Proof." In 1996, Northwestern University won the Big Ten conference and went to the Rose Bowl.
Quote from: LOsborne on July 07, 2010, 06:55:31 PM
My favorite argument for the existence of God is called the "Northwestern Proof." In 1996, Northwestern University won the Big Ten conference and went to the Rose Bowl.
:biggrin: :biggrin:
I am so feed up with these born again Christian and the other zealots following any religion. Especially the ones who try to cram their religion down other people throats. Sticking their noses in our bed rooms, sex lives and preference and trying to get law and the government to back them up.
These people are always screaming about their freedoms, but want to take a woman freedom to control her body. But another thing, that pisses me off they want to prove all of the claim with a bible. Like it the exact word and work of God. Bullshit.
To sum what I real think of religion, George Carlin really sums it up exactally. Goggle this in and see what he has to say. He has hit the nail of the head when it comes to religion.
Goggle in ( George Carlin on religion and god. )
Goggle in ( George Carlin ~ Religion is bullshit. )
The LDS's came a knockin' on the 4th of July. I sent them packing by telling them I am a satanist! :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on July 07, 2010, 07:15:08 PM
The LDS's came a knockin' on the 4th of July. I sent them packing by telling them I am a satanist! :biggrin:
Thanks for the tip PH. Tellin' 'em yer a Catholic, I'm not btw, doesn't seem to work anymore.
I always ask them to come back on Wednesday evening, because that's when the coven meets. No takers so far.
Inviting them to the ritual goat sacrifice at midnight on Saturday usually does it, too.
Quote from: LOsborne on July 07, 2010, 06:55:31 PM
My favorite argument for the existence of God is called the "Northwestern Proof." In 1996, Northwestern University won the Big Ten conference and went to the Rose Bowl.
And I thought it was when the Mets won the 1986 (?) World Series. Silly me. ;D
Quote from: Palehorse on July 07, 2010, 07:15:08 PM
The LDS's came a knockin' on the 4th of July. I sent them packing by telling them I am a satanist! :biggrin:
No, No, No say you didn't do it. About 2 years ago they came a knocking and I gave a great big smile and said Ladies I don't give a damn about religion and especially yours, "I'm an Atheist. They quickly stepped back and I haven't seen anymore since.
Quote from: The Troll on July 07, 2010, 08:27:44 PM
No, No, No say you didn't do it. About 2 years ago they came a knocking and I gave a great big smile and said Ladies I don't give a damn about religion and especially yours, "I'm an Atheist. They quickly stepped back and I haven't seen anymore since.
I have a backup plan should they come back: I am going to ask them to come dance naked by the light of the next full moon around a bonfire, with all my neighbors. . . :biggrin: Fornication is mandatory. . . :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on July 07, 2010, 08:29:36 PM
I have a backup plan should they come back...
Why not offer them a free sample of that chupacabra repellent we were discussing?
Quote from: LOsborne on July 07, 2010, 08:32:30 PM
Why not offer them a free sample of that chupacabra repellent we were discussing?
Now thats a thought worth pursuing! :yes: :angel:
I could keep a few cold ones and some boiled eggs on hand and start wolfing them down when we spot them. :biggrin:
Chase them with a few rectum rockets and it will be killer! :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on July 07, 2010, 08:29:36 PM
I have a backup plan should they come back: I am going to ask them to come dance naked by the light of the next full moon around a bonfire, with all my neighbors. . . :biggrin: Fornication is mandatory. . . :biggrin:
What does one have to do the get invited to one of your parties. Wow! :thumbsup:
:biggrin:
The last time someone knocked on my door, it was the Jehovah's Witness. I told them that I'd rather discuss a religion which offered the "hell option". They left.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 07, 2010, 10:42:00 PM
:biggrin:
The last time someone knocked on my door, it was the Jehovah's Witness. I told them that I'd rather discuss a religion which offered the "hell option". They left.
The last time I had a run with the Jehovah Witness, was when two women came to my door and was asking for money to send kids to summer camp. I asked them if other kids could go to church camp if they weren't Jehovah Witness's. They said, No. I said that I was an Atheist and if they wouldn't let my kid go, why would I give them money. They gave me an "About Face" and left my door.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 07, 2010, 05:48:30 PM
This point was made in my video. How can you use the book you're trying to prove, as proof. You can't. The fact that someone had the nerve to call the video "scientific proof" made me laugh out loud. What the bible says and how it's interpreted isn't any different than the work of Nostradamus or how it was interpreted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus)
Which one is more factual? It depends on perspective and interpretation.
YOUR point was made in YOUR video...Sandy, the old testament is well documented...IF, you "choose" not to believe the content is fine, but the Torah is real, and it's writtings have prophecies...NOW again, I don't care if you do not believe in it or not, but there IS some astounding facts that have come to light, based upon some very profound studies of it.
So, by your "logic" Nostradamas and Stephen King are prophets?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 08, 2010, 12:31:49 PM
YOUR point was made in YOUR video...Sandy, the old testament is well documented...IF, you "choose" not to believe the content is fine, but the Torah is real, and it's writtings have prophecies...NOW again, I don't care if you do not believe in it or not, but there IS some astounding facts that have come to light, based upon some very profound studies of it.
Well if it is "so well documented", how about providing an example or two?
Ya make enough prophecies, some are bound to come true.
We just don't hear about what doesn't come true.
Bet the latter is a bit more than the former.
Quote from: Palehorse on July 08, 2010, 12:57:01 PM
Well if it is "so well documented", how about providing an example or two?
dead sea scrolls for one...(which have several books that re in the Holy Bible...)
Quote from: followsthewolf on July 08, 2010, 12:58:42 PM
Ya make enough prophecies, some are bound to come true.
We just don't hear about what doesn't come true.
Bet the latter is a bit more than the former.
can't arugue with that logic at all....
Yes and add in ambiguity and a dollup specious reasoning and anything is possible...
and with all due respect, I am going to kindly step out of this thread....because NOTHING either of us can say will change anything....sharing the gospel with an interested person is one thing....arguing and debating with them is another....disagreeing and trying to understand one can be a great thing....but, arguing about the truth, and in my case, the truth is Jesus,......it is not a good thing to do, and is it just not necessary, imo..... ;) :)
According to scholars, the Old Testament was written over the course of a number of centuries, between 1400 B.C and 400 B.C. The sources for it are the subject of discussion amongst them however, with some attributing the 1st five books to Moses, and Genesis being attributed to Abraham and being edited and rewritten by Moses.
The discovery of tablets containing these works, in the 20th century, support that Abraham may have indeed been the author, because modern dating supports them being created during Abraham's life after his birth in 2161 B.C. This "tablet theory" is supported by some scholars in order to explain the toledoth phrases found in a number of passages within Genesis.
Other scholars attribute the start of the Old Testament to King Josiah of Judah during the 7th century BCE, when an anonymous source now known as the Deuteronomist collected writings from sources like the Yahwists and Elohists, then added his own materials as well before providing them to the King. This collection of writings then became known as the Pentateuch, as it was named by the Redactor
Over the ensuing centuries up to the third century BCE other works were added to it and in 90 CE the Council of Jamnia selected from this collection of writings, those "books" it considered worthy of inclusion within the Hebrew Bible, which is what is called the Old Testament today.
Many of the Old Testament "prophecies" are said to be fulfilled and supporters utilize New Testament passages to support this position. The New Testament was written for the most part between 45AD and 96AD, and the testament was not canonized until the 4th century AD, and has remained unchanged since then. . .
Makes one wonder just how much of the NT was written with an eye toward achievement of fulfillment!
With all of that prophesies, nothing can be found of antibiotics, sewer systems which probably save more live than any other invention. Trains, people flying, automobiles, atomic power, electricity and modern medicine. It doesn't say one thing about germs.
But what is amazing is when you pin down a really religious person and they know they are talking to some really smart people, they say, oh I don't want to even to talk to you about it, because it WON'T CHANGE YOUR MIND. They know that any senseable person would think they were talking about smoke, mirrors and magic.
I'm still waiting for a Christian to explain to me how it's possible that this Jesus fellow led essentially the same life...born to a virgin, had disciples, was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day, atoned for the sins of mankind, and returned to heaven...as a deity from another religion, Mithra, who predated him. That sure is one hell of a coincidence!
Ain't it the truth, Ex.
Damndest juxtaposition of circumstances I've ever seen.
Yet, it's supposed to be a myth.
Errrrr.......aahhhh.......which one is the myth, you say?
My point, exactly.
Quote from: Exterminator on July 08, 2010, 04:59:18 PM
I'm still waiting for a Christian to explain to me how it's possible that this Jesus fellow led essentially the same life...born to a virgin, had disciples, was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day, atoned for the sins of mankind, and returned to heaven...as a deity from another religion, Mithra, who predated him. That sure is one hell of a coincidence!
If you want some interesting imformation on the God Mithra. I think you will find it interesting, I had never see it before.
Just Goggle in (Jesus as a reincarnation of Mirhra.)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 08, 2010, 12:31:49 PM
YOUR point was made in YOUR video...Sandy, the old testament is well documented..
No, Henry THE point you tried to make was made in the video. The old testament is "well documented" where? In the Old Testament? See the dilemma?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 08, 2010, 12:31:49 PM
.IF, you "choose" not to believe the content is fine, but the Torah is real, and it's writtings have prophecies...NOW again, I don't care if you do not believe in it or not, but there IS some astounding facts that have come to light, based upon some very profound studies of it.
Please share the astounding facts and reference the profound studies and let me be the judge. I choose not to believe, because there isn't any proof. I ask for it and no one can provide it. You may be able to suspend all reasoning and accept this thing blindly, but you can't expect anyone else to want to.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 08, 2010, 12:31:49 PM
cand with all due respect, I am going to kindly step out of this thread....because NOTHING either of us can say will change anything....sharing the gospel with an interested person is one thing....
Yes, sharing is a far cry from proof.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 08, 2010, 12:31:49 PM
arguing and debating with them is another....disagreeing and trying to understand one can be a great thing....but, arguing about the truth, and in my case, the truth is Jesus,......it is not a good thing to do, and is it just not necessary, imo..... ;) :)
And here is why religion of any kind, can't be debated. When challenged, rather than stepping up to the challenge, the religious tuck tail and run.
Debate is a good thing, but it has been my experience that religious people dedicate ALL aspects of their lives to their religion. It's sadly apparent that when faced with overwhelming evidence and basic information, they almost have no choice but to ignore and deny it. For the religious it is more than changing one's mind, it's a complete demolition and restructuring of all aspects of their lives. That's a lot to ask of someone when the payoff is simply recognizing the truth.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on July 08, 2010, 06:38:29 PM
No, Henry THE point you tried to make was made in the video. The old testament is "well documented" where? In the Old Testament? See the dilemma?
the dead sea scrolls for one....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on July 10, 2010, 08:29:57 AM
the dead sea scrolls for one....
I watch a whole show of the dead sea scrolls on the Discovery Channel. They have spent a Zillion hours by a zillion religious "experts: and from what I could see they found nothing earth shattering or proof of anything earth shattering.
Nothing that would change my mind of the bible or Christianity. Nothing. I wish there was a God and have someone to blame of all of his mismanagement of the world.
So far as I know, the experts do not agree even about who wrote them.
Some say the Essenes, others say they were written by a conglomeration of ordinary people who lived at the time.
The scrolls can't really confirm anything.
The scrolls are simply copies of books of the Old Testament, along with some commentary, and a few new chapters. There is nothing from the New Testament, and nothing at all about current events at the time. How can they be factual documentation of anything?
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html
Anyone with on ounce of grey matter can tell you the the dead sea scrolls was the desperation writing of some religious fanatic writing down "hear say"
The bible was written by men who wanted to controll the downtrodden people. So they could get their last shekel. Like the story of God telling King David when he defeated Jericho. Kill all of the men, kill all of the women, kill all children, the sheep, goats, oxen and bring the gold, silver, copper, lead back to the temple. Why, who knows, as of now God still doesn't take money, but God's preacher do.
One question why aren't all of the books of the bible, not in the New Testament.
www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm