Do you believe that the alleged killer of the doctor should receive the death penalty if convicted?
These are the responses I received in another thread.
Quote from: Gryphon on June 10, 2009, 11:28:53 AM
No, and for the same reason I dont think anyone should. Death is an easy out for these people. A lifetime in prison seems a far worse punishment.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 11:53:55 AM
My stance upon this has not changed, and the short answer is no.
"No" because the justice system cannot consistently adjudicate at this point in time.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2009, 11:56:40 AM
If the state that he is tried in, declared him guilty, and that was the punishment for the crime....then YES.
Quote from: Bo D on June 10, 2009, 12:11:59 PM
So ...the causing of death in one instance is ok ... but in the other, it is not?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2009, 12:20:34 PM
one committed crime....the other did not.
Quote from: mageepet on June 10, 2009, 12:02:29 PM
I am thinking that I read that according to the A.G.of KS this killing didn't meet the criteria for seeking the death penalty in KS. Perhaps, I am wrong and I don't have time to research it at this moment.
However, it can be argued either way.
Here is a link, arguing for the death penalty.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1821013/dr_tillers_murderer_should_be_charged.html
If I should be able to find a link to prove I just didn't dream the A.G.'s statement I will post it later.
Sorry, i can't find anything at this time except a statement from Nola Foulston indicating the charges would be 1 count of first degree murder,and two lesser counts. In Kansas, the charge would be capital murder if the death penalty were being sought.
Quote from: Bo D on June 10, 2009, 12:14:58 PM
Very good. But let's for the moment forget about the nuances of differing state laws and just assume the death penalty is a possibility if convicted.
Would you (anyone) ask for the death penalty?
Quote from: Bo D on June 10, 2009, 12:42:56 PM
Forgive me if I'm giving myself away here, but I cannot condone the taking of life - for whatever reason.
Given the fact that our judicial system is increasingly coming under fire for railroading, manufacturing evidence, and falsely convicting innocent individuals for crimes they did not commit, some of these death penalty infractions, I cannot in good faith endorse a practice that cannot be administered fairly and with a high level of confidence within the laws of the land.
In my mind it is better for 100 guilty men to go free than for1 innocent man to be convicted of a crime he did not commit. How many innocent men (and women BTW) have been sentenced to death, only to be freed years later when the truth comes out? Even worse, how many had their sentences carried out before the truth was known?
You want to talk about murder in the name of the state? That is happening!
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 01:33:34 PM
Given the fact that our judicial system is increasingly coming under fire for railroading, manufacturing evidence, and falsely convicting innocent individuals for crimes they did not commit, some of these death penalty infractions, I cannot in good faith endorse a practice that cannot be administered fairly and with a high level of confidence within the laws of the land.
In my mind it is better for 100 guilty men to go free than for1 innocent man to be convicted of a crime he did not commit. How many innocent men (and women BTW) have been sentenced to death, only to be freed years later when the truth comes out? Even worse, how many had their sentences carried out before the truth was known?
You want to talk about murder in the name of the state? That is happening!
You have your reasons - I have mine. How can a society claim to be "civilized" when the state routinely takes the life of a human being?
Interesting question isn't it Bo? The same ones that are screaming to high heaven about abortion are the same ones ready to off someone when they commit a crime.
I guess all life is precious, even Terri Schiavo's life, up until the point that they piss you off. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Bo D on June 10, 2009, 01:36:26 PM
You have your reasons - I have mine. How can a society claim to be "civilized" when the state routinely takes the life of a human being?
I really do not disagree, and believe your question to be a very valid one. To be honest I cannot say I could support the death penalty even if the issues I previously stated were removed.
Now, that doesn't mean if some jackass kills someone in my family I wouldn't want to kill them myself, for surely that is the natural reaction. But isn't that one of the reasons we have laws in the first place, to remove emotional / irrational thinking from the crime and punishment process? Yet, in its place has come greed. . .
And to Locutus' point, I find it quite contradictory to see pro lifer's chomping at the bit to kill someone convicted of a crime. Not to mention the zealots.
The zealots will quote you the old "eye for an eye" passage, which is in direct opposition to "thou shalt not kill". . .among others. . .
again, your average Christian in America today, will not shout an eye for an eye.....
for me personally, I am NOT an advocate of ANYBODY being killed, but IF a person convicted of murder (100%) cannot EVER be trusted back into our society, without fear of this person doing it again....then, I see it, that he will be sent to be judged by God, who will determine his ultimate sentence.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2009, 03:46:19 PM
again, your average Christian in America today, will not shout an eye for an eye.....
for me personally, I am NOT an advocate of ANYBODY being killed, but IF a person convicted of murder (100%) cannot EVER be trusted back into our society, without fear of this person doing it again....then, I see it, that he will be sent to be judged by God, who will determine his ultimate sentence.
I'm not saying that if "a person convicted of murder (100%)" should ever be released back into society. Never have said that.
Quote from: Bo D on June 10, 2009, 03:52:39 PM
I'm not saying that if "a person convicted of murder (100%)" should ever be released back into society. Never have said that.
I know you didn't bo, but, I guess I don't see the point of tax payers spending millions of dollars to house these guys for the rest of their lives....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2009, 03:55:16 PM
I know you didn't bo, but, I guess I don't see the point of tax payers spending millions of dollars to house these guys for the rest of their lives....
Oh, yeah!!!!! KILL 'EM!!!! IT'S CHEAPER!!!!
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Bo D on June 10, 2009, 03:59:37 PM
Oh, yeah!!!!! KILL 'EM!!!! IT'S CHEAPER!!!!
:rolleyes:
so, just let these guys live off tax payers hard working dollars.........three squares a day, smokes, gym, TV, healthcare....
all because THEY .... by their own choice, decided to KILL somebody's loved one.
I believe sending them to God NOW, is JUST as merciful as letting them live in prison for 40 years....THEN going before God.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2009, 04:07:57 PM
so, just let these guys live off tax payers hard working dollars.........three squares a day, smokes, gym, TV, healthcare....
all because THEY .... by their own choice, decided to KILL somebody's loved one.
I believe sending them to God NOW, is JUST as merciful as letting them live in prison for 40 years....THEN going before God.
It's actually more expensive to kill 'em, on average.
Quote from: Gryphon on June 10, 2009, 04:10:07 PM
It's actually more expensive to kill 'em, on average.
Must you bring math into every subject? :biggrin:
Quote from: Gryphon on June 10, 2009, 04:10:07 PM
It's actually more expensive to kill 'em, on average.
that is only because of the ridicules judicial system of allowing appeal after appeal and huge lawyer expenses...
It seems to me, IF, a person is 1000% guilty, with no possible room for error. Then he/she could be taken immediatly and have the sentence carried out.
but I think you probably are correct, I have read it costs, outrageous to have a death sentence carried out.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 10, 2009, 04:07:57 PM
so, just let these guys live off tax payers hard working dollars.........three squares a day, smokes, gym, TV, healthcare....
Nope - never said that either.
Keep rationalizing, Hank. It has been said that rationalization is more important than sex - try to go a day without rationalizing, then try to go a day without sex.
It really says something about us when we start debating about whether it's cheaper to just go ahead and kill somebody.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Bo D on June 10, 2009, 04:16:26 PM
It really says something about us when we start debating about whether it's cheaper to just go ahead and kill somebody.
:rolleyes:
I don't think of it as "somebody".....I think of it as a person, who brutally murdered another, innocent human being...maybe I'm NOT a 'good' Christian to think this way........but, I have lost some compassion for creeps like this...
the debate should NOT be about $$$, but about ridding a person from society once and for all.
We need penal colonies. Forget about the death penalty debate. Instead of working their way through years of appeals, or living for decades on tax payer dollars, why not let our convicted capital criminals colonize the moon? Or the sea bed? There would certainly be more of a return on investment than we see at present. Y'all need to color outside the lines more often.
One thing that you have to remember when having a conversation along these lines is that the death penalty isn't about punishment; it's about revenge. :wink:
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:03:41 PM
Where's the ROI in that?
It ensures a healthy detritus feeder population that is well nourished and thriving. . .
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 09:08:29 PM
It ensures a healthy detritus feeder population that is well nourished and thriving. . .
So you think I shouldn't have spread that diatomaceous earth to get rid of the slugs? I screwed up the natural order and made the growing population of the self-righteous and sanctimonious a necessary evil?
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:37:13 PM
So you think I shouldn't have spread that diatomaceous earth to get rid of the slugs? I screwed up the natural order and made the growing population of the self-righteous and sanctimonious a necessary evil?
Yup, sure did. I hear that there is a genetically altered population that grows to astounding proportions and has mutated and developed resistance to "diatomaceous earth". They love tomatoes too! :spooked:
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 09:41:05 PM
I hear that there is a genetically altered population that grows to astounding proportions and has mutated and developed resistance to "diatomaceous earth".
Oh crap! Have they spread up north too? The PPDC (Paranoid People of Daviess County) have been investigating this threat. All indications are they have come from the flesh-eating bacteria which is carried by the chupacabras, cross-breeding with brown floaters from Hawkins Creek. A friend of mine has developed a chupacabras repellent, but it smells wretched, and has no effect on the mutated bacteria. We are currently seeking a natural predator for this scourge.
I am team leader of the RMMT (Rapid Margarita Mixing Team) branch of the PPDC. If you are interested, we could set up a network for sharing intelligence.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:47:44 PM
Oh crap! Have they spread up north too? The PPDC (Paranoid People of Daviess County) have been investigating this threat. All indications are they have come from the flesh-eating bacteria which is carried by the chupacabras, cross-breeding with brown floaters from Hawkins Creek. A friend of mine has developed a chupacabras repellent, but it smells wretched, and has no effect on the mutated bacteria. We are currently seeking a natural predator for this scourge.
I am team leader of the RMMT (Rapid Margarita Mixing Team) branch of the PPDC. If you are interested, we could set up a network for sharing intelligence.
Chupacabras?! Count me in. They drained a bunch of goats in Madison county over the weekend.
Quote from: Palehorse on June 10, 2009, 09:58:18 PM
Chupacabras?! Count me in. They drained a bunch of goats in Madison county over the weekend.
Hah! That ain't nothin'. Down here they are cross-breeding with armadillos (we don't know where those came from) and some of them have
wings!!!
There are too many problems with our criminal justice system to allow the death penalty.
And, even if we are 100% sure someone is guilty, it's not right to stoop to their level. It says more about us than them, that we would take the life of another human being.
Let him rot in jail, though. That's a far better punishment.
Quote from: Locutus on June 10, 2009, 08:34:16 PM
One thing that you have to remember when having a conversation along these lines is that the death penalty isn't about punishment; it's about revenge. :wink:
I disagree, I see it as the ultimate punishment, which SHOULD be dealt to those who made their own decision to brutally end someones life.....there is no such thing as revenge.....revenge cannot bring back the dead.
Quote from: Freethinker on June 10, 2009, 10:08:42 PM
There are too many problems with our criminal justice system to allow the death penalty.
And, even if we are 100% sure someone is guilty, it's not right to stoop to their level. It says more about us than them, that we would take the life of another human being.
Let him rot in jail, though. That's a far better punishment.
except we cannot let them rot, they HAVE to have 3 squares a day, smokes, healthcare, gym time, hobby time, library time and TV time.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 08:00:01 AM
except we cannot let them rot, they HAVE to have 3 squares a day, smokes, healthcare, gym time, hobby time, library time and TV time.
Henry, don't you think sending them to a penal colony would be more beneficial -- both to the bottom-line of the state with jurisdiction, and to the convicts themselves? It worked awfully well for Australia.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 08:00:01 AM
except we cannot let them rot, they HAVE to have 3 squares a day, smokes, healthcare, gym time, hobby time, library time and TV time.
You really don't have a clue. They don't
have to have anything except food (which is pretty cheap...they're not feeding them steak and lobster in there), a place to sleep, access to personal hygiene facilities and health care only if they are sick or injured. There is no requirement for any TV time or library time or any of the rest of that crap and most prisons are now non-smoking facilities. Those that are not do not supply cigarettes.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 11, 2009, 08:13:24 AM
You really don't have a clue. They don't have to have anything except food (which is pretty cheap...they're not feeding them steak and lobster in there), a place to sleep, access to personal hygiene facilities and health care only if they are sick or injured. There is no requirement for any TV time or library time or any of the rest of that crap and most prisons are now non-smoking facilities. Those that are not do not supply cigarettes.
YOU are wrong EX,
Those that are on good behavior, in Pendleton anyway, can go to the correctional building across the street, and they get movies, workout, have volleyball tournaments, have access to snacks and pop. THIS, is from people who have worked in there and have told me first hand.
No, those who cannot stay on good behavior, go back, and lose a few privileges.
LO,
I have not heard about these.....I think something needs to be done about our penal system.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 08:23:50 AM
YOU are wrong EX,
Those that are on good behavior, in Pendleton anyway, can go to the correctional building across the street, and they get movies, workout, have volleyball tournaments, have access to snacks and pop. THIS, is from people who have worked in there and have told me first hand.
No, those who cannot stay on good behavior, go back, and lose a few privileges.
No, I'm not wrong; you're changing your story. Before, you said they
have to have those things and now you're saying that they are rewards for good behavior...which is it?
Quote from: Exterminator on June 11, 2009, 08:30:31 AM
No, I'm not wrong; you're changing your story. Before, you said they have to have those things and now you're saying that they are rewards for good behavior...which is it?
Okay, they don't HAVE to HAVE them, but many of them DO get them....as long as they are on "good" behavior....that WAS an error, but my point being is,......they are allowed too many privilidges, at the taxpayers expense.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
Okay, they don't HAVE to HAVE them, but many of them DO get them....as long as they are on "good" behavior....that WAS an error, but my point being is,......they are allowed too many privilidges, at the taxpayers expense.
Yeah, because having no incentives inplace to encourage order would certainly be cheaper in the long run; right?
That notwithstanding, your original point seemed to suggest that it is more expensive to house them than it is to execute them which as Gryphon pointed out is incorrect.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 08:23:50 AM
YOU are wrong EX,
Those that are on good behavior, in Pendleton anyway, can go to the correctional building across the street, and they get movies, workout, have volleyball tournaments, have access to snacks and pop. THIS, is from people who have worked in there and have told me first hand.
No, those who cannot stay on good behavior, go back, and lose a few privileges.
LO,
I have not heard about these.....I think something needs to be done about our penal system.
Are you referring to the inmates of the minimum security section or the maximum security section of Pendleton?
Quote from: Bo D on June 11, 2009, 09:04:06 AM
Are you referring to the inmates of the minimum security section or the maximum security section of Pendleton?
Those who have been on good behavior, can transfer from the max to the min. section in Pendleton.
and ex, I had already stated, that it IS more expensive to execute than it is to house them, but only because of the appeals process and lawyers expense that is in place. MY point was, for those, who have been 100%, without any doubt, guilty of a brutal murder, should NOT be allowed this expensive, time and money consuming process.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:47:44 PM
Oh crap! Have they spread up north too? The PPDC (Paranoid People of Daviess County) have been investigating this threat. All indications are they have come from the flesh-eating bacteria which is carried by the chupacabras, cross-breeding with brown floaters from Hawkins Creek. A friend of mine has developed a chupacabras repellent, but it smells wretched, and has no effect on the mutated bacteria. We are currently seeking a natural predator for this scourge.
I am team leader of the RMMT (Rapid Margarita Mixing Team) branch of the PPDC. If you are interested, we could set up a network for sharing intelligence.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Y'all crackin' me up!
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
Okay, they don't HAVE to HAVE them, but many of them DO get them....as long as they are on "good" behavior....that WAS an error, but my point being is,......they are allowed too many privilidges, at the taxpayers expense.
Henry, what if it were changed so that a convicted murderer was sentenced to life, no chance ever for parole, solitary, no privileges? Would you still be opposed?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 09:11:15 AM
and ex, I had already stated, that it IS more expensive to execute than it is to house them, but only because of the appeals process and lawyers expense that is in place. MY point was, for those, who have been 100%, without any doubt, guilty of a brutal murder, should NOT be allowed this expensive, time and money consuming process.
I see; so our legal system doesn't meet with your approval. You should find a country who has one that does and move there! :razz:
Quote from: Bo D on June 11, 2009, 09:19:26 AM
Henry, what if it were changed so that a convicted murderer was sentenced to life, no chance ever for parole, solitary, no privileges? Would you still be opposed?
I would be fine with that..I'm not thrilled about capital punishment, but I'm not 100% against either...also, I still think we need to re-evaluate our prison systems....there is a lot of corruption and waste ..... very similar to our legislator system...
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 09:27:37 AM
...also, I still think we need to re-evaluate our prison systems....there is a lot of corruption and waste ..... very similar to our legislator system...
And our construction industry! :biggrin:
Quote from: Exterminator on June 11, 2009, 09:43:22 AM
And our construction industry! :biggrin:
okay, I have not had any coffee this morning.........that one flew..RIGHT over me.....I don't get it.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 09:53:42 AM
okay, I have not had any coffee this morning.........that one flew..RIGHT over me.....I don't get it.
Don't
you work in the construction industry?
Quote from: Exterminator on June 11, 2009, 10:10:27 AM
Don't you work in the construction industry?
okay!!!.....GOT IT!!.........corruption, waste...........and you think...okay..........that was a shot at..at..at ME??......... :spooked:
who pissed in your Wheaties this morning?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 11, 2009, 10:14:32 AM
who pissed in your Wheaties this morning?
Didn't have wheaties...had biscuits and gravy! :smitten:
Yum.... biscuits and gravy... the real breakfast of champions!
Anyway... I agree that there needs to be prison reform, but also think being confined anywhere is a worse punishment than death -- even if there is tv or 3 yukkie meals a day.
Quote from: Exterminator on June 11, 2009, 10:35:29 AM
Didn't have wheaties...had biscuits and gravy! :smitten:
did somebody piss in them?.. :confused: cause THAT would be ashame!!...
I LOVE Biscuts and Gravy... :yes:
Quote from: LOsborne on June 10, 2009, 09:47:44 PM
Oh crap! Have they spread up north too? The PPDC (Paranoid People of Daviess County) have been investigating this threat. All indications are they have come from the flesh-eating bacteria which is carried by the chupacabras, cross-breeding with brown floaters from Hawkins Creek. A friend of mine has developed a chupacabras repellent, but it smells wretched, and has no effect on the mutated bacteria. We are currently seeking a natural predator for this scourge.
I am team leader of the RMMT (Rapid Margarita Mixing Team) branch of the PPDC. If you are interested, we could set up a network for sharing intelligence.
Quote from: Bo D on June 11, 2009, 09:16:55 AM
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Y'all crackin' me up!
It's not funny, Bo. Lester Sasquatch is so despondent over the disfigurement left by the flesh-eating bacteria (although ya have look
real close to see it on Lester) that he has stopped coming to the Dew Drop Inn at closing time to walk Loraine Willard home. That leaves the Martin County sasquatch clan as the only breeding population -- and they all have both eyes on the same side of the nose! It's a genetic flaw caused by inbreeding, not a sasquatch characteristic. And even though Loraine is human (we think,) we, at the PPDC, viewed her relationship with Lester as our best hope to revitalize the gene pool. Other than bleach, of course.
Anyway, if you will laugh at the chupacabras flesh-eating bacteria cross-breeding with the brown floaters, you would probably think our battle to thwart the aliens' (the reptilian strain, not the grays) attempt to infiltrate our county government is a real knee-slapper. Folks like you are gonna be the first ones up against the wall when the revolution comes!
1. how can one get a spot on the RMMT? ;D
2. I used to be pro-capitol punishment, but I've changed my position over the years mostly for the reason that Freethinker mentioned. When we plan to take life and do it, then we are no better than them. I agree w/Locutus too, it's about retribution, but for what purpose? The death of a killer doesn't bring the loved one back and death isn't punishment. The killer stops suffering the minute the proverbial switch is flipped. It just seems pointless...
Now, back to the RMMT :biggrin:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on June 12, 2009, 12:24:09 AM
1. how can one get a spot on the RMMT?
Well, speed is important, of course, as well as accuracy. And you have to be able to pass our extensive background check. We also value a real dedication to exposing and obstructing the natural and paranormal conspiracies threatening our way of life.
But if you show up with tequila, you're pretty much in.
Quote from: LOsborne on June 12, 2009, 07:41:55 AM
But if you show up with tequila, you're pretty much in.
In what? :eek:
Quote from: LOsborne on June 11, 2009, 07:40:16 PM
It's not funny, Bo. Lester Sasquatch is so despondent over the disfigurement left by the flesh-eating bacteria (although ya have look real close to see it on Lester) that he has stopped coming to the Dew Drop Inn at closing time to walk Loraine Willard home. That leaves the Martin County sasquatch clan as the only breeding population -- and they all have both eyes on the same side of the nose! It's a genetic flaw caused by inbreeding, not a sasquatch characteristic. And even though Loraine is human (we think,) we, at the PPDC, viewed her relationship with Lester as our best hope to revitalize the gene pool. Other than bleach, of course.
Anyway, if you will laugh at the chupacabras flesh-eating bacteria cross-breeding with the brown floaters, you would probably think our battle to thwart the aliens' (the reptilian strain, not the grays) attempt to infiltrate our county government is a real knee-slapper. Folks like you are gonna be the first ones up against the wall when the revolution comes!
I'm so sorry! I didn't realize that is was such a serious subject. Please excuse me while I writhe around in pain from injuries sustained while trying to muffle my laughter yet again.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
I love it!!!!!!
Quote from: LOsborne on June 12, 2009, 07:41:55 AM
Well, speed is important, of course, as well as accuracy. And you have to be able to pass our extensive background check. We also value a real dedication to exposing and obstructing the natural and paranormal conspiracies threatening our way of life.
But if you show up with tequila, you're pretty much in.
:tequila: :piano: :duo: