QuoteSAN ANTONIO - A man who rammed his truck into a woman's vehicle on a highway early Friday told authorities he crashed into her while going more than 100 mph because God told him "she needed to be taken off the road."
The truck rear-ended the car on U.S. Highway 281, both vehicles spun across a median then came to a stop along a barrier in the opposite lanes. Both drivers suffered only minor injuries.
"He just said God said she wasn't driving right, and she needed to be taken off the road," Bexar County Sheriff's Office spokesman Kyle Coleman said in the online edition of the San Antonio Express-News. "God must have been with them, 'cause any other time, the severity of this crash, it would have been a fatal."
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The cop's response intrigued me. God was there to keep anyone from being seriously injured, yet everyone is probably treating this man like a nut because he said God spoke to him. I would think that if you can believe one, you'd believe the other.
Ya do somethin' like that and people think yer a nut 'cuz ya heard a voice in yer head tellin' ya ta do somethin' like 'at.
But, if ya go ta church and hear a voice in yer head, ever'body thinks yer somethin' special, 'cuz ya had a "divine inspiration."
Religion is a convenient thing, eh?
I have been a "Christian"...for better than ten years now....I have NEVER heard voices in my head....I have not talked to anyone who has heard "voices" in their head....I have been inspired to react to certain situations or not to react to certain situations...by a stong conscience...I imagine MOST people have done the same thing....Christian or not Christian.
I feel, that my conscience is guided by the Holy Spirit and the flesh....i think the sinful nature that ALL humans have is by the flesh, and the nudge we ALL get to do what is taught by the "fruits of the spirit", is by a Holy Spirit that is recieved when we accept Christ...I'm not saying that you HAVE to have Christ to do good things...
to say that God had this guy do what he did, in my opinion, is NOT a Godly reaction...just my opinion....to do something stupid like ram someone at a high speed and assume God will keep everybody safe...is not being a sound minded steward of God, BUT, who knows....it IS amazing that no one DID get seriously hurt....was it just dumb-luck?....
for me, when I react to what I feel is the Holy Spirit, guiding my conscience.....I have a sense of peace that NO mater the out come, I will be okay, and I will become stronger in my walk....it has worked for me and my family, it has gotten us through some very serious situations, without "freaking out"....I have a strong amount of peace and joy through all situations, at least once I get my wit's about me, and realize who is in control....
anyway, I am rambling on....just reacting to my 'conscience'... ;) ;D
We could have a beer. Or four. And have a discussion (as opposed to an argument).
Hope we get to do that sometime, Hank ol' boy.
Quote from: followsthewolf on December 03, 2008, 12:35:31 PM
We could have a beer. Or four. And have a discussion (as opposed to an argument).
Hope we get to do that sometime, Hank ol' boy.
FTW, I would LOVE to drink a few with you someday....who knows, the opportunity may arise someday. I would NEVER :no: argue with ANYBODY on religion...but I could have a heck of a disscussion... ;D ...I love discussing religion and politics with others...as long as nobody gets TOO serious about it or gets nasty...then it's over for me.
The guy is probably Schizophrenic. People with that disease always hear voices in their head telling them what to do. Many people with that disease think God speaks to them,and the government is out to get them, or spying on them. My Mom has it so I know a little bit about it. I'm more inclined to believe what the officer said. :biggrin:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on December 03, 2008, 12:30:33 AM
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The cop's response intrigued me. God was there to keep anyone from being seriously injured, yet everyone is probably treating this man like a nut because he said God spoke to him. I would think that if you can believe one, you'd believe the other.
The same as the increase in religious activity after 9/11; wasn't religion and the belief in absolutely outrageous, insane stuff at least part of the cause of 9/11? And yet, many "christians" turned to the church for answers and divine "protection" from the same kind of craziness. Just doesn't make sense, but then, religion, by definition, cannot. If it were intended to make sense, no one would believe it. Just like if christians REALLY read the bible, they would no longer believe.
According to the bible, god used to have conversations with people, so I find it kinda...humorous that people who claim to believe in the bible also believe that someone who claims they talked to god is crazy.
Quote from: dan foster on December 03, 2008, 10:33:50 PM
The same as the increase in religious activity after 9/11; wasn't religion and the belief in absolutely outrageous, insane stuff at least part of the cause of 9/11? And yet, many "christians" turned to the church for answers and divine "protection" from the same kind of craziness. Just doesn't make sense, but then, religion, by definition, cannot. If it were intended to make sense, no one would believe it. Just like if christians REALLY read the bible, they would no longer believe.
I read somewhere that religious "belief" normally increases after a major tragedy, but I wonder what would make someone turn to the very thing that if it exists, allowed the major tragedy to happen in the 1st place. I've asked that question and I've gotten a myriad of responses. Everything from the people who did it were evil, that it wasn't god....so that would mean evil is stronger than god? Of course not. Huh? Or god is our father and just like any other parent he has to teach us lessons....oh, I get it...so if your kid won't clean his room, you get a wrecking ball and break off his side of the house? Seriously, the attempts at rationalization of why god would allow these things to happen has me convinced that when religious people read their religious texts they're only seeing what they want to and block out the nagging voice that's telling them that it doesn't make sense.
We have been "programmed" to discount that voice of reason in our heads, after all; "faith is believing when your SILLY common sense tells you not to"-- Miracle of 34th Street.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on December 03, 2008, 11:03:39 PM
According to the bible, god used to have conversations with people, so I find it kinda...humorous that people who claim to believe in the bible also believe that someone who claims they talked to god is crazy.
That I know of God has never spoken to me as a voice in my head. But, he has made his presence felt in my body. Believe me.... when he enters your body....you know it. It is the most overwhelming sense of warmth, love, and serenity. That said.... I do not go to church....and I have not read the Bible. I'm not a religious fanatic of any sort. I do not condemn others for their religious, or non religious beliefs. I keep God in my own way. I try to live a decent life with good intentions, and do unto others as I would have done to myself. I gotta be me!!! :biggrin:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 03, 2008, 02:40:48 PM
The guy is probably Schizophrenic. People with that disease always hear voices in their head telling them what to do. Many people with that disease think God speaks to them,and the government is out to get them, or spying on them. My Mom has it so I know a little bit about it. I'm more inclined to believe what the officer said. :biggrin:
Or vice-versa, lol!
:biggrin:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on December 05, 2008, 05:14:08 PM
:biggrin:
I love that tree!!!! :smitten: Did you know you can buy those? :biggrin:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on December 03, 2008, 11:17:41 PM
I read somewhere that religious "belief" normally increases after a major tragedy, but I wonder what would make someone turn to the very thing that if it exists, allowed the major tragedy to happen in the 1st place. I've asked that question and I've gotten a myriad of responses. Everything from the people who did it were evil, that it wasn't god....so that would mean evil is stronger than god? Of course not. Huh? Or god is our father and just like any other parent he has to teach us lessons....oh, I get it...so if your kid won't clean his room, you get a wrecking ball and break off his side of the house? Seriously, the attempts at rationalization of why god would allow these things to happen has me convinced that when religious people read their religious texts they're only seeing what they want to and block out the nagging voice that's telling them that it doesn't make sense.
there is no rationalization Sandy....it is what it is.........according to scripture starting in Genisis.......we died to sin...things are what they are, we ALL have free will to choose or not choose, in His plan of salvation.........evil DOES exist....I think, God Does intervine according to His will......but, bad things WILL happen....not because He simply Allowed it to....it makes perfect sense, once you accept God for His word, and read what He is telling us...........it is NOT that complicating......the Bible has information in it that we need to know.....maybe we don't understand EVERYTHING in it....at least I don't, and don't pretend to, but the more I read it, the more I begin to understand the whole, BIG picture of things..........I, choose to follow the teachings that Christ defined to us, through the Holy Scriptures.........it is about eternity, not just the few moments of time that we are here......my life could NOT be any more clearer than it is right now..........and I give ALL the credit to God, for allowing me to understand His word...I wish EVERYONE could experience what I have...........but, that is just me.....I love this life, and I love the fact God has made His presence known to me.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 06, 2008, 12:37:59 PM
there is no rationalization Sandy....it is what it is.........according to scripture starting in Genisis.......we died to sin...things are what they are, we ALL have free will to choose or not choose, in His plan of salvation.........evil DOES exist....I think, God Does intervine according to His will......but, bad things WILL happen....not because He simply Allowed it to....it makes perfect sense, once you accept God for His word, and read what He is telling us...........it is NOT that complicating......the Bible has information in it that we need to know.....maybe we don't understand EVERYTHING in it....at least I don't, and don't pretend to, but the more I read it, the more I begin to understand the whole, BIG picture of things..........I, choose to follow the teachings that Christ defined to us, through the Holy Scriptures.........it is about eternity, not just the few moments of time that we are here......my life could NOT be any more clearer than it is right now..........and I give ALL the credit to God, for allowing me to understand His word...I wish EVERYONE could experience what I have...........but, that is just me.....I love this life, and I love the fact God has made His presence known to me.
Great post Henry. You see the bigger picture just like I do. Everything is connected by a common thread... be it good or evil. It's in the plan. Everything that happens is done by God's hands.... there is a reason for everything.
Case in point...... most people believe that suicide is going against God's plan. My friend Vica killed herself several months ago. I'm sure you remember that. My friend Kathy was very close to Vica, and was worried for Vica's soul. I told her nothing is done that isn't done by God's hand!!! He called her home to end her suffering. Her time on earth was done. He called her to a better place, and I'm sure there was forgiveness for her, and my friend should forgive her because it was his plan. I hope my take on this isn't offensive to anyone. I'm just stating what I believe. :smile:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 06, 2008, 12:37:59 PM
there is no rationalization Sandy....it is what it is.........according to scripture starting in Genisis.......we died to sin...things are what they are, we ALL have free will to choose or not choose, in His plan of salvation.........evil DOES exist....I think, God Does intervine according to His will......but, bad things WILL happen....not because He simply Allowed it to....it makes perfect sense, once you accept God for His word, and read what He is telling us...........it is NOT that complicating......the Bible has information in it that we need to know.....maybe we don't understand EVERYTHING in it....at least I don't, and don't pretend to, but the more I read it, the more I begin to understand the whole, BIG picture of things..........I, choose to follow the teachings that Christ defined to us, through the Holy Scriptures.........it is about eternity, not just the few moments of time that we are here......my life could NOT be any more clearer than it is right now..........and I give ALL the credit to God, for allowing me to understand His word...I wish EVERYONE could experience what I have...........but, that is just me.....I love this life, and I love the fact God has made His presence known to me.
So, it is all Eve's fault, right?
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 06, 2008, 01:13:16 PM
Great post Henry. You see the bigger picture just like I do. Everything is connected by a common thread... be it good or evil. It's in the plan. Everything that happens is done by God's hands.... there is a reason for everything.
Case in point...... most people believe that suicide is going against God's plan. My friend Vica killed herself several months ago. I'm sure you remember that. My friend Kathy was very close to Vica, and was worried for Vica's soul. I told her nothing is done that isn't done by God's hand!!! He called her home to end her suffering. Her time on earth was done. He called her to a better place, and I'm sure there was forgiveness for her, and my friend should forgive her because it was his plan. I hope my take on this isn't offensive to anyone. I'm just stating what I believe. :smile:
I do think it a bit odd that you think god caused your friend to kill herself. Do you really think that?
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 06, 2008, 01:13:16 PM
Great post Henry. You see the bigger picture just like I do. Everything is connected by a common thread... be it good or evil. It's in the plan. Everything that happens is done by God's hands.... there is a reason for everything.
Case in point...... most people believe that suicide is going against God's plan. My friend Vica killed herself several months ago. I'm sure you remember that. My friend Kathy was very close to Vica, and was worried for Vica's soul. I told her nothing is done that isn't done by God's hand!!! He called her home to end her suffering. Her time on earth was done. He called her to a better place, and I'm sure there was forgiveness for her, and my friend should forgive her because it was his plan. I hope my take on this isn't offensive to anyone. I'm just stating what I believe. :smile:
I look at this way....we are ALL sinners....taking your own life can be just as sinful as, lying or coveting...and we are ALL guilty....I DO, think it is important that one developes a realtionship with God by accepting Christ. God does love all of us, and wants nothing more than for us to love Him back and spend eternal life with Him....He knows how to bring us all to Him....some of us need MORE of Gods "plan" (so-to-speak) to finally "get it"....
this is just MY, opinion...based upon my conclusions of reading and studying.....
Quote from: dan foster on December 07, 2008, 10:44:21 PM
I do think it a bit odd that you think god caused your friend to kill herself. Do you really think that?
Dan, I believe that everything we do is but a stroke of God's brush on the canvas of life. The good and the bad. Things happen because it's in the plan. What we do is our destiny. You can't change your destiny because, it is controlled by a higher power. We're not suppose to know why things happen like they do but, everything has a reason, it's all connected. Weird huh?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 08, 2008, 08:34:24 AM
I look at this way....we are ALL sinners....taking your own life can be just as sinful as, lying or coveting...and we are ALL guilty....I DO, think it is important that one developes a realtionship with God by accepting Christ. God does love all of us, and wants nothing more than for us to love Him back and spend eternal life with Him....He knows how to bring us all to Him....some of us need MORE of Gods "plan" (so-to-speak) to finally "get it"....
this is just MY, opinion...based upon my conclusions of reading and studying.....
I agree Henry. I think it is harder for some to see. I don't hold it against anybody though. Life experience as led me to believe in a higher power. I should have been dead many times but, there is a reason that I'm needed here. It hasn't been my time yet. We are but a piece in the puzzle which is God's plan. :yes:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 08, 2008, 12:50:18 PM
Dan, I believe that everything we do is but a stroke of God's brush on the canvas of life. The good and the bad. Things happen because it's in the plan. What we do is our destiny. You can't change your destiny because, it is controlled by a higher power. We're not suppose to know why things happen like they do but, everything has a reason, it's all connected. Weird huh?
do you wear your seatbelt? is it because god is powerless against seatbelts?
WTF.... powerless against seatbelts? Hell yeah I wear a seatbelt, it's illegal not to in Illinois. I guess I missed somethin' here. What's yer point?
seatbelt =God?
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 08, 2008, 01:05:35 PM
WTF.... powerless against seatbelts? Hell yeah I wear a seatbelt, it's illegal not to in Illinois. I guess I missed somethin' here. What's yer point?
seatbelt =God?
He is trying to say, that if you have faith in God...who needs seatbelts.............a typical response from somebody who simply does not get it, dex.
I would expect this from Dan, but not AWOL, I thought he had a better understanding of God than that.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 08, 2008, 01:12:34 PM
He is trying to say, that if you have faith in God...who needs seatbelts.............a typical response from somebody who simply does not get it, dex.
I would expect this from Dan, but not AWOL, I thought he had a better understanding of God than that.
Apparently not..... he doesn't understand the concept of when it's your time to go, it doesn't matter what you do. You can't change your destiny. I think acceptance of that is extremely hard for some people to deal with. I wish he wasn't so bitter... I tried to get him to come to some of the liter threads. :shrug:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 08, 2008, 01:19:08 PM
Apparently not..... he doesn't understand the concept of when it's your time to go, it doesn't matter what you do. You can't change your destiny. I think acceptance of that is extremely hard for some people to deal with. I wish he wasn't so bitter... I tried to get him to come to some of the liter threads. :shrug:
i have been going back and forth with awol for a few years..........he DOES have great sense of humor. :yes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 08, 2008, 01:26:05 PM
i have been going back and forth with awol for a few years..........he DOES have great sense of humor. :yes:
I tried to get Dan to come over to some of them too a while back. Maybe, we've got the Cooties? :biggrin:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 08, 2008, 12:50:18 PM
Dan, I believe that everything we do is but a stroke of God's brush on the canvas of life. The good and the bad. Things happen because it's in the plan. What we do is our destiny. You can't change your destiny because, it is controlled by a higher power. We're not suppose to know why things happen like they do but, everything has a reason, it's all connected. Weird huh?
And, I equally believe that nothing is behind the paint brush you allude to. Nothing. There is randomness and choices we make ourselves. There is good and bad everywhere and not in some silly cosmic game between two beings that we just can't understand. That "we just can't know 'his' will" is most fundamental cop out to religion. Pathetic, really.
You can believe, and I don't, but the outcome from our beliefs are exactly the same. Toss a coin, throw some animal bones on the ground, count some tea leaves, or wave your hands in the air and sway back and forth to the tune of some old hymnal while singing "his" praises, but the outcome will ALWAYS be the same. It is quite conceited that you think the creator of the universe gives two shiites what you do or don't do. I guess I just don't have that kind of ego.
Quote from: dan foster on December 08, 2008, 11:14:45 PM
And, I equally believe that nothing is behind the paint brush you allude to. Nothing. There is randomness and choices we make ourselves. There is good and bad everywhere and not in some silly cosmic game between two beings that we just can't understand. That "we just can't know 'his' will" is most fundamental cop out to religion. Pathetic, really.
You can believe, and I don't, but the outcome from our beliefs are exactly the same. Toss a coin, throw some animal bones on the ground, count some tea leaves, or wave your hands in the air and sway back and forth to the tune of some old hymnal while singing "his" praises, but the outcome will ALWAYS be the same. It is quite conceited that you think the creator of the universe gives two shiites what you do or don't do. I guess I just don't have that kind of ego.
that is only YOUR belief, NO science to PROVE it dan.... ;) NONE, ZILCH, NADA....so, give it up...and quit BASHING, those who have it together... ;) let it go.
Quote from: dan foster on December 08, 2008, 11:14:45 PM
There is good and bad everywhere and not in some silly cosmic game between two beings that we just can't understand.
It is quite conceited that you think the creator of the universe gives two shiites what you do or don't do.
Ah! A tacit acknowledgement of a creator, and a firm stance in the Deist camp! Many of our founding fathers were deists, I understand.
QuoteI guess I just don't have that kind of ego.
HAHAHAHAHAHA -*SNORT* Now that is the funniest thing I have EVER seen you post, dan!
[/quote]
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 08, 2008, 01:12:34 PM
I would expect this from Dan, but not AWOL, I thought he had a better understanding of God than that.
probably a bit harsh the way i put it, but i'm just saying i'm not a fatalist. lessons can be learned from those who go before us, otherwise it's just a big game of chance. i can't wrap my head around that.
Quote from: dan foster on December 08, 2008, 11:14:45 PM
And, I equally believe that nothing is behind the paint brush you allude to. Nothing. There is randomness and choices we make ourselves. There is good and bad everywhere and not in some silly cosmic game between two beings that we just can't understand. That "we just can't know 'his' will" is most fundamental cop out to religion. Pathetic, really.
You can believe, and I don't, but the outcome from our beliefs are exactly the same. Toss a coin, throw some animal bones on the ground, count some tea leaves, or wave your hands in the air and sway back and forth to the tune of some old hymnal while singing "his" praises, but the outcome will ALWAYS be the same. It is quite conceited that you think the creator of the universe gives two shiites what you do or don't do. I guess I just don't have that kind of ego.
No ego here Dan. Why must you bash my beliefs? Have I bashed your's? HELL NO!!! There's no reason in the world for you to attack my beliefs Dan!!! I haven't attacked your's. You are the one who is self righteous, and egotistical... not I. I don't have to bash others to make myself feel good everyday. YOU ARE DISMISSED!!! :icon_twisted:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 09, 2008, 08:19:36 AM
that is only YOUR belief, NO science to PROVE it dan.... ;) NONE, ZILCH, NADA....so, give it up...and quit BASHING, those who have it together... ;) let it go.
I am not offering any science to prove anything, but of course, neither can you. Again, the outcome of our beliefs will always result in the same things and no matter how hard you believe, you can't change that or prove anything any different to me, or yourself.
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 09, 2008, 09:04:19 PM
No ego here Dan. Why must you bash my beliefs? Have I bashed your's? HELL NO!!! There's no reason in the world for you to attack my beliefs Dan!!! I haven't attacked your's. You are the one who is self righteous, and egotistical... not I. I don't have to bash others to make myself feel good everyday. YOU ARE DISMISSED!!! :icon_twisted:
Whoa. Where did I do any bashing? I did say it was conceited to think the creator of the universe cares about you, or hank, at all, but I don't even consider that to be bashing. So, where's that at?
Quote from: dan foster on December 09, 2008, 09:57:51 PM
Whoa. Where did I do any bashing? I did say it was conceited to think the creator of the universe cares about you, or hank, at all, but I don't even consider that to be bashing. So, where's that at?
Maybe it's your wording Dan. It isn't conceited to think that God cares about us. That's not conceit... it's BELIEF. I realize it's hard for some people to believe in things they can't see. That's where faith comes in. I'm totally accepting of other people's beliefs. Everybody has a right to believe in anything they want to, without being persecuted for it. I don't know what you believe in but, I hope you're very fulfilled by your belief. What works for some doesn't work for others. There is no right, and there is no wrong here. It is what it is.
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 09, 2008, 10:37:22 PM
Maybe it's your wording Dan. It isn't conceited to think that God cares about us. That's not conceit... it's BELIEF. I realize it's hard for some people to believe in things they can't see. That's where faith comes in. I'm totally accepting of other people's beliefs. Everybody has a right to believe in anything they want to, without being persecuted for it. I don't know what you believe in but, I hope you're very fulfilled by your belief. What works for some doesn't work for others. There is no right, and there is no wrong here. It is what it is.
Actually, it is more anthropomorphism than conceit that you believe the 'big guy" has your back. Humans tend to see people everywhere and injecting one into the "heavens" to oversee your every need as a "heavenly father" is just more of the same. Conceit? Yes, but there is no way you could possibly see it that way as it is not on a personal level of conceit, but just a part of your psyche put there by your genes.
Quote from: dan foster on December 14, 2008, 08:32:56 PM
Actually, it is more anthropomorphism than conceit that you believe the 'big guy" has your back. Humans tend to see people everywhere and injecting one into the "heavens" to oversee your every need as a "heavenly father" is just more of the same. Conceit? Yes, but there is no way you could possibly see it that way as it is not on a personal level of conceit, but just a part of your psyche put there by your genes.
Dan, I have to ask you this.... do you believe in, or have faith in anything in life? Do you have any hope, or aspirations in your life? Do you believe in good and evil, and right and wrong? I'm sorry but you just seem sooo negative. Do you love anybody? Do you have strong feelings about anything other than not believing in God? I'm not tryin' to be mean, I would just kind of like to figure you out a little? :yes:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 14, 2008, 09:03:23 PM
Dan, I have to ask you this.... do you believe in, or have faith in anything in life? Do you have any hope, or aspirations in your life? Do you believe in good and evil, and right and wrong? I'm sorry but you just seem sooo negative. Do you love anybody? Do you have strong feelings about anything other than not believing in God? I'm not tryin' to be mean, I would just kind of like to figure you out a little? :yes:
Once again, I don't see how you read anything you asked me into my postings. My disbelief in the supernatural has nothing to do with my life. I can answer yes to everything you asked, except the concept of good and evil; I don't believe there is a god or a devil. Also, where do you get the "sooo negative"? I am pretty happy. Ask me anything about anything else and I will tell you how I feel, but how is it you came to the ones you just asked? Is it possible that someone that doesn't believe in god and jesus can be happy? How can they have a happy life? They have to be filled with hate to not believe in god? You really need to ask yourself; how did I get to a place that I would believe such things? I can only assume you believe that everyone in the world is going to hell that doesn't believe as you do. Is that right?
Let's see how deep that runs; does anyone that does god's will go to heaven?
Quote from: dan foster on December 14, 2008, 09:13:31 PM
Once again, I don't see how you read anything you asked me into my postings. My disbelief in the supernatural has nothing to do with my life. I can answer yes to everything you asked, except the concept of good and evil; I don't believe there is a god or a devil. Also, where do you get the "sooo negative"? I am pretty happy. Ask me anything about anything else and I will tell you how I feel, but how is it you came to the ones you just asked? Is it possible that someone that doesn't believe in god and jesus can be happy? How can they have a happy life? They have to be filled with hate to not believe in god? You really need to ask yourself; how did I get to a place that I would believe such things? I can only assume you believe that everyone in the world is going to hell that doesn't believe as you do. Is that right?
Let's see how deep that runs; does anyone that does god's will go to heaven?
:think: Well Dan.... no I don't think people that don't believe in God are evil or goin' to hell. As I said before...everybody has a right to believe in anything they want to. Do I think you're a bad person because you don't believe in God... NO!! I'm sure you are a very good person. Actually, I rather enjoy posting with you because, what you say makes me think. I think people who don't believe in God can have a happy existence... I didn't mean to imply otherwise. You just seem like a real serious guy, and you have heavy thoughts.... that isn't a bad thing in any sense of the word. You should join some of us idiots on the lighter threads!!! :yes: :biggrin:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 14, 2008, 09:25:57 PM
:think: Well Dan.... no I don't think people that don't believe in God are evil or goin' to hell. As I said before...everybody has a right to believe in anything they want to. Do I think you're a bad person because you don't believe in God... NO!! I'm sure you are a very good person. Actually, I rather enjoy posting with you because, what you say makes me think. I think people who don't believe in God can have a happy existence... I didn't mean to imply otherwise. You just seem like a real serious guy, and you have heavy thoughts.... that isn't a bad thing in any sense of the word. You should join some of us idiots on the lighter threads!!! :yes: :biggrin:
Oh. :smile:
Perhaps it was just my "angry elf" moniker that lead you to believe I was unhappy.
Quote from: dan foster on December 14, 2008, 10:26:39 PM
Oh. :smile:
Perhaps it was just my "angry elf" moniker that lead you to believe I was unhappy.
LMAO!!! That must have been it. :biggrin:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 15, 2008, 11:40:26 PM
LMAO!!! That must have been it. :biggrin:
I do get angry, sometimes, but I am far from unhappy.
This may be off topic or out of context, but...
I believe everyone runs the full gamut of emotions throughout the course of day to day life, but personally I don't believe a deity or lack of one is the reason, it's human nature. In fact, happiness is a choice. I'm not happy because of certain things or events, but rather because I choose to be. I think it's kind of callow to place the responsibility for personal happiness on any person, place or thing, much less a supernatural being.
Life's what you make it, da da da, dum. Can't really fake it, da da da dum.....-- Talk Talk
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on December 17, 2008, 11:29:40 AM
This may be off topic or out of context, but...
I believe everyone runs the full gamut of emotions throughout the course of day to day life, but personally I don't believe a deity or lack of one is the reason, it's human nature. In fact, happiness is a choice. I'm not happy because of certain things or events, but rather because I choose to be. I think it's kind of callow to place the responsibility for personal happiness on any person, place or thing, much less a supernatural being.
You make your own happiness.... it's entirely up to every one of us to make our own. :biggrin:
Obviously, I agree, but one of the first things someone of faith says/assumes when you admit to not having a religious affiliation is that you're unhappy, angry, whatever.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on December 17, 2008, 09:51:19 PM
Obviously, I agree, but one of the first things someone of faith says/assumes when you admit to not having a religious affiliation is that you're unhappy, angry, whatever.
It is usually worse than that: "some traumatic episode must have filled you with hate" or "just something wrong with you". After all, how can you be happy without god? And, if you don't "love" god, your only other choice is to hate "him" Something had to happen for you to hate god, right?
Just never satisfying, to a believer, that I don't subscribe because I find it all impossible. And, that I don't need a deity in my life to answer my questions, fears or troubles and "explain" the universe around me. Science is just absolutely cool enough for me and far more majestic than the bronze-age dribble that puts all-knowing, loving "fathers" in the sky, or subterranean demons behind all mischief.
What really riles believers is that I studied the bible more than they did and continually hold it up as a mirror so they might come to the same, logical conclusion I did; it is impossible. All of it. I practiced the christian faith for 20 years, from a child to adulthood. I believed. It was hard to shed the mind manipulation associated with religion. Somehow, the web of false doctrine is married with a genetic human disposition to believe.
So, it takes much courage to throw it all off. However, once there, it is absolutely liberating, intellectually. Not so I can "sin" without fear as most believers also assume you have to be secretly wanting, but by destroying all the limitations associated with the world view that gets entrenched in your very psyche. It took me about 10 years to "de-program" from religion. I would still find myself, when confronted with an odd occurrence or some seemingly bad situation, that I was being punished for my non-belief. Anyone that tells you religion = morality is full of it. The desert religions of the middle east are the most egregious; a system of award and punishment is of the lowest morality (Level One on Kohlberg's Moral Development Scale).
There is a good book on the genetic predisposition for belief; Faces in the Clouds. It does more than any other in explaining WHY people believe, something else that I struggled with for the 10 years of deprogramming; how did I come to believe, in the first place, and how is it seemingly intelligent (or well educated) people can still believe? The book answers that. Another good reference is www.deconversion.com (my domain, but linked to an excellent site) which describes how the most learned in christianity drop it when they too study it to it's "logical conclusion".
I still try to look back and figure out what "triggered" my self-deprogramming, but I think it was the one real question believers never really ask themselves; why? Why would the creator of the universe need a human sacrifice in order to forgive humans for their "sins". When you start asking that question, in a serious way, the house of cards comes tumbling down. You then move onto why did "he" go from animal sacrifices to human ones, why did "he" kill all those children in the OT, and what you come to realize is that you were brainwashed into a middle eastern desert cult with a bunch of childish mythology. Eventually, one realizes that ALL religions and cults (really no difference, but in name) are just a bunch of mythologies born out of the minds of ancient people without much difference except in where they originated; hot headed zealots thrive in desert cult mythologies (jewish, christian, muslim), mild mannered tea drinking adherents thrive in cults of moderate climates (buddhism, hinduism) and everything in between. But there is one universal truth among them; they will kill over their beliefs in their elephant god, nirvana-bound master, or bloodthirsty human sacrificing god, no matter what the origin. That makes them dangerous.
In the US, they have and probably will kill, but mostly they just want to make sure they aren't the only "sucker" among us and continually ask the gov't to push their beliefs. That too, makes them dangerous. You mostly hear them say (like our revisionist current president) that this has always been and always be a christian nation which is an absolute, provable lie, but they just keep chanting it like one of their prayers.
Quick question Dan..... what caused you to lose faith in God? If you practiced the Christian religion for 20 years what changed your mind? I'm just curious that's all.... not accusing or anything... just really curious. :yes:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 18, 2008, 05:33:21 PM
Quick question Dan..... what caused you to lose faith in God? If you practiced the Christian religion for 20 years what changed your mind? I'm just curious that's all.... not accusing or anything... just really curious. :yes:
As I stated, I began to question the whole apparatus. I could no longer convince myself that a deity would be anything like the one in the bible, after studying it. The craziness is endless, no matter how you interpret it. So, once I realized the deity in the bible were not possible, I checked around and found all the deities in ALL religions were just as impossible and I couldn't find a credible one. So, I then realized there wasn't any reason to have one, in the first place. Didn't need it. Don't need one in an afterlife (also not credible). I finally realized; there isn't one. If you need a creator, then "who created the creator", and so on. Once you realize there is no need to go so far to find the creator's creator, then why go as far as the last creator.
Logic is disastrous for religious dogma.
Thanks for explaining your reasons Dan. I was just kind of curious. :yes:
Quote from: dan foster on December 18, 2008, 12:17:46 AM
It is usually worse than that: "some traumatic episode must have filled you with hate" or "just something wrong with you". After all, how can you be happy without god? And, if you don't "love" god, your only other choice is to hate "him" Something had to happen for you to hate god, right?
Just never satisfying, to a believer, that I don't subscribe because I find it all impossible. And, that I don't need a deity in my life to answer my questions, fears or troubles and "explain" the universe around me. Science is just absolutely cool enough for me and far more majestic than the bronze-age dribble that puts all-knowing, loving "fathers" in the sky, or subterranean demons behind all mischief.
What really riles believers is that I studied the bible more than they did and continually hold it up as a mirror so they might come to the same, logical conclusion I did; it is impossible. All of it. I practiced the christian faith for 20 years, from a child to adulthood. I believed. It was hard to shed the mind manipulation associated with religion. Somehow, the web of false doctrine is married with a genetic human disposition to believe.
So, it takes much courage to throw it all off. However, once there, it is absolutely liberating, intellectually. Not so I can "sin" without fear as most believers also assume you have to be secretly wanting, but by destroying all the limitations associated with the world view that gets entrenched in your very psyche. It took me about 10 years to "de-program" from religion. I would still find myself, when confronted with an odd occurrence or some seemingly bad situation, that I was being punished for my non-belief. Anyone that tells you religion = morality is full of it. The desert religions of the middle east are the most egregious; a system of award and punishment is of the lowest morality (Level One on Kohlberg's Moral Development Scale).
There is a good book on the genetic predisposition for belief; Faces in the Clouds. It does more than any other in explaining WHY people believe, something else that I struggled with for the 10 years of deprogramming; how did I come to believe, in the first place, and how is it seemingly intelligent (or well educated) people can still believe? The book answers that. Another good reference is www.deconversion.com (my domain, but linked to an excellent site) which describes how the most learned in christianity drop it when they too study it to it's "logical conclusion".
I still try to look back and figure out what "triggered" my self-deprogramming, but I think it was the one real question believers never really ask themselves; why? Why would the creator of the universe need a human sacrifice in order to forgive humans for their "sins". When you start asking that question, in a serious way, the house of cards comes tumbling down. You then move onto why did "he" go from animal sacrifices to human ones, why did "he" kill all those children in the OT, and what you come to realize is that you were brainwashed into a middle eastern desert cult with a bunch of childish mythology. Eventually, one realizes that ALL religions and cults (really no difference, but in name) are just a bunch of mythologies born out of the minds of ancient people without much difference except in where they originated; hot headed zealots thrive in desert cult mythologies (jewish, christian, muslim), mild mannered tea drinking adherents thrive in cults of moderate climates (buddhism, hinduism) and everything in between. But there is one universal truth among them; they will kill over their beliefs in their elephant god, nirvana-bound master, or bloodthirsty human sacrificing god, no matter what the origin. That makes them dangerous.
In the US, they have and probably will kill, but mostly they just want to make sure they aren't the only "sucker" among us and continually ask the gov't to push their beliefs. That too, makes them dangerous. You mostly hear them say (like our revisionist current president) that this has always been and always be a christian nation which is an absolute, provable lie, but they just keep chanting it like one of their prayers.
I've been meaning to get back to this post, I've never been able to express my thoughts as clearly, a post here and there, but you've described how I feel about religion, perfectly.
Question Dan..... do you think all people that believe in God, or some other deity are crazy? I think there's a difference between being devoted to a belief and insanity. I've experienced individuals who are clinically deemed insane. They seem very different than people who believe in God, or some other deity. :think: I suppose anybody could be driven to insanity, if they became completely obsessed with their religion but, it's been my experience that most aren't completely over the edge about their beliefs. :think: What's your take Dan? :confused:
After my "deconversion" I struggled with how it was that I could believe in the first place. I realized that I had been brainwashed. Then I struggled with how people that seemed intelligent (or at least educated) could believe. I finally found the answer in Faces in the Clouds, an excellent book on how humans are predisposed, genetically, to believe. Made perfect sense.
So, with that result, I don't think people are crazy that believe. Since they are inherently predisposed to believe, the brainwashing is made much easier. The church dogma that has been honed over centuries plays right into a need for some to believe, and others that are just "brought up that way" and just don't question the basics of what they have been taught.
I think MOST christians are just your average, non-lethal, person that gets by day to day without questioning anything. No natural curiosity, no intellectual curiosity, just paying the bills, raising the kids, going to church on sunday cause "mom did". Crazy? No. Sad? Yes. Cattle, then? Maybe. Many americans appear to be.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." - Romans 1:19-20
Amen Henry Hawk :)
Quote from: dan foster on December 30, 2008, 11:23:00 PM
After my "deconversion" I struggled with how it was that I could believe in the first place. I realized that I had been brainwashed. Then I struggled with how people that seemed intelligent (or at least educated) could believe. I finally found the answer in Faces in the Clouds, an excellent book on how humans are predisposed, genetically, to believe. Made perfect sense.
So, with that result, I don't think people are crazy that believe. Since they are inherently predisposed to believe, the brainwashing is made much easier. The church dogma that has been honed over centuries plays right into a need for some to believe, and others that are just "brought up that way" and just don't question the basics of what they have been taught.
I think MOST christians are just your average, non-lethal, person that gets by day to day without questioning anything. No natural curiosity, no intellectual curiosity, just paying the bills, raising the kids, going to church on sunday cause "mom did". Crazy? No. Sad? Yes. Cattle, then? Maybe. Many americans appear to be.
Do you remember the tragedy at Jonestown? Jim Jones actually brainwashed his followers into believing that he was God. :spooked: Those misguided people actually killed themselves!!!! That is radical fanaticism in every sense of the word. There are some really screwed up individuals out there, always waiting to prey upon innocent, and trusting individuals. :spooked: That is some scary crap right there. :no:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 31, 2008, 01:01:09 PM
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." - Romans 1:19-20
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 31, 2008, 09:34:13 PM
Do you remember the tragedy at Jonestown? Jim Jones actually brainwashed his followers into believing that he was God. :spooked: Those misguided people actually killed themselves!!!! That is radical fanaticism in every sense of the word. There are some really screwed up individuals out there, always waiting to prey upon innocent, and trusting individuals. :spooked: That is some scary crap right there. :no:
Jonestown, 9/11, slaughter of mormons, slaughter of muslims, protestant wars in america, church bombings, abortion clinic bombings;
Yes, those are all radical fanaticism, but only on the same continuum of brainwashing. The top end, if you will.
The bottom end are all those social christians who claim that "label", but don't actually participate, unless driven to a mob by "those other people; muslims, et al".
In the middle are those church going, talk the talk, but have no idea what they are following and don't question it. People that are brainwashed don't know they are brainwashed. Just that simple.
Its the upper-middle top end that bothers me; they insist America is a "christian nation" want the gov't to promote their religion (since it can't stand on it's own), want creationism taught in public schools under the ten commandments posted in every hall and room, and insist that their "right to pray" isn't a right, but a law that says everyone else has to, as well, or the whole nation will go to "hell".
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 31, 2008, 01:01:09 PM
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." - Romans 1:19-20
Sorry, no cigar. When you can explain why the creator of the universe is full of "wrath" upon being rejected, then you might have some claim of legitimate support. I don't need any excuses not to believe, but seems you need every last one in order to do so.
"Eternal damnation and punishment awaits those who question God's unconditional love." -Bill Hicks
I'm reading an interesting book called "Religious Literacy" by Stephen Protero. The premise of the book is that in countries, such as the US where a majority of the country claim to be deeply religious, even the most devout - are shockingly ignorant about religion.
The introduction begins "...A visiting professor from Austria offered a passing observation about American undergraduates. They are very religious, he told me, but they know next to nothing bout religion. Thanks to compulsory religious education (which in Austria begins in elementary schools), European students can name the twelve apostles and the Seven Deadly Sins, but they wouldn't be caught dead going to church or synagogue themselves. American students are just the opposite. Here faith without understanding is the standard; here religious ignorance is bliss. "
Of course he goes on to illustrate how this ignorance extends beyond the youth to the religious and nonreligious communities in general. One of the more interesting points that he makes is the danger of religious illiteracy. For example (and to paraphrase), could Waco have turned out differently had law enforcement (or someone) understood Revelations? In the aftermath of 9/11 religious ignorance led to prejudice of anyone from the middle east. President Bush mentioned that Islam is peace while televangelists claimed that it's a religion of war. Because Americans are basically ignorant of Islam...who knew which was right?
I'm really enjoying this author's perspective. I'll admit that I could be more knowledgeable regarding religion, but from what I read w/in the forums so could some who claim to be religious.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on January 04, 2009, 05:22:11 PM
I'm reading an interesting book called "Religious Literacy" by Stephen Protero. The premise of the book is that in countries, such as the US where a majority of the country claim to be deeply religious, even the most devout - are shockingly ignorant about religion.
The introduction begins "...A visiting professor from Austria offered a passing observation about American undergraduates. They are very religious, he told me, but they know next to nothing bout religion. Thanks to compulsory religious education (which in Austria begins in elementary schools), European students can name the twelve apostles and the Seven Deadly Sins, but they wouldn't be caught dead going to church or synagogue themselves. American students are just the opposite. Here faith without understanding is the standard; here religious ignorance is bliss. "
Of course he goes on to illustrate how this ignorance extends beyond the youth to the religious and nonreligious communities in general. One of the more interesting points that he makes is the danger of religious illiteracy. For example (and to paraphrase), could Waco have turned out differently had law enforcement (or someone) understood Revelations? In the aftermath of 9/11 religious ignorance led to prejudice of anyone from the middle east. President Bush mentioned that Islam is peace while televangelists claimed that it's a religion of war. Because Americans are basically ignorant of Islam...who knew which was right?
I'm really enjoying this author's perspective. I'll admit that I could be more knowledgeable regarding religion, but from what I read w/in the forums so could some who claim to be religious.
To borrow another quote on the lack of religious education in American (I'm paraphrasing);
"Everyone should read the bible. We need more atheists"
-- Penn and Teller