God was there...right?

[Sandy Eggo]

Obviously, I agree, but one of the first things someone of faith says/assumes when you admit to not having a religious affiliation is that you're unhappy, angry, whatever.

[dan foster]

Obviously, I agree, but one of the first things someone of faith says/assumes when you admit to not having a religious affiliation is that you're unhappy, angry, whatever.

It is usually worse than that: "some traumatic episode must have filled you with hate" or "just something wrong with you".  After all, how can you be happy without god?  And, if you don't "love" god, your only other choice is to hate "him"  Something had to happen for you to hate god, right?

Just never satisfying, to a believer, that I don't subscribe because I find it all impossible.  And, that I don't need a deity in my life to answer my questions, fears or troubles and "explain" the universe around me.  Science is just absolutely cool enough for me and far more majestic than the bronze-age dribble that puts all-knowing, loving "fathers" in the sky, or subterranean demons behind all mischief. 

What really riles believers is that I studied the bible more than they did and continually hold it up as a mirror so they might come to the same, logical conclusion I did; it is impossible.  All of it.  I practiced the christian faith for 20 years, from a child to adulthood.  I believed.  It was hard to shed the mind manipulation associated with religion.  Somehow, the web of false doctrine is married with a genetic human disposition to believe.

So, it takes much courage to throw it all off.  However, once there, it is absolutely liberating, intellectually.  Not so I can "sin" without fear as most believers also assume you have to be secretly wanting, but by destroying all the limitations associated with the world view that gets entrenched in your very psyche.  It took me about 10 years to "de-program" from religion.  I would still find myself, when confronted with an odd occurrence or some seemingly bad situation, that I was being punished for my non-belief.  Anyone that tells you religion = morality is full of it.  The desert religions of the middle east are the most egregious; a system of award and punishment is of the lowest morality (Level One on Kohlberg's Moral Development Scale).

There is a good book on the genetic predisposition for belief; Faces in the Clouds.  It does more than any other in explaining WHY people believe, something else that I struggled with for the 10 years of deprogramming; how did I come to believe, in the first place, and how is it seemingly intelligent (or well educated) people can still believe?  The book answers that.  Another good reference is www.deconversion.com (my domain, but linked to an excellent site) which describes how the most learned in christianity drop it when they too study it to it's "logical conclusion".

I still try to look back and figure out what "triggered" my self-deprogramming, but I think it was the one real question believers never really ask themselves; why?  Why would the creator of the universe need a human sacrifice in order to forgive humans for their "sins".  When you start asking that question, in a serious way, the house of cards comes tumbling down.  You then move onto why did "he" go from animal sacrifices to human ones, why did "he" kill all those children in the OT, and what you come to realize is that you were brainwashed into a middle eastern desert cult with a bunch of childish mythology.  Eventually, one realizes that ALL religions and cults (really no difference, but in name) are just a bunch of mythologies born out of the minds of ancient people without much difference except in where they originated; hot headed zealots thrive in desert cult mythologies (jewish, christian, muslim), mild mannered tea drinking adherents thrive in cults of moderate climates (buddhism, hinduism) and everything in between.  But there is one universal truth among them; they will kill over their beliefs in their elephant god, nirvana-bound master, or bloodthirsty human sacrificing god, no matter what the origin.  That makes them dangerous.

In the US, they have and probably will kill, but mostly they just want to make sure they aren't the only "sucker" among us and continually ask the gov't to push their beliefs.  That too, makes them dangerous.  You mostly hear them say (like our revisionist current president) that this has always been and always be a christian nation which is an absolute, provable lie, but they just keep chanting it like one of their prayers.

[Dexter Morgan]

 Quick question Dan..... what caused you to lose faith in God? If you practiced the Christian religion for 20 years what changed your mind? I'm just curious that's all.... not accusing or anything... just really curious. 

[dan foster]

Quick question Dan..... what caused you to lose faith in God? If you practiced the Christian religion for 20 years what changed your mind? I'm just curious that's all.... not accusing or anything... just really curious. 

As I stated, I began to question the whole apparatus.  I could no longer convince myself that a deity would be anything like the one in the bible, after studying it.  The craziness is endless, no matter how you interpret it.  So, once I realized the deity in the bible were not possible, I checked around and found all the deities in ALL religions were just as impossible and I couldn't find a credible one.  So, I then realized there wasn't any reason to have one, in the first place.  Didn't need it.  Don't need one in an afterlife (also not credible).  I finally realized; there isn't one.  If you need a creator, then "who created the creator", and so on.  Once you realize there is no need to go so far to find the creator's creator, then why go as far as the last creator.

Logic is disastrous for religious dogma.

[Dexter Morgan]

Thanks for explaining your reasons Dan. I was just kind of curious. 

[Sandy Eggo]

It is usually worse than that: "some traumatic episode must have filled you with hate" or "just something wrong with you".  After all, how can you be happy without god?  And, if you don't "love" god, your only other choice is to hate "him"  Something had to happen for you to hate god, right?

Just never satisfying, to a believer, that I don't subscribe because I find it all impossible.  And, that I don't need a deity in my life to answer my questions, fears or troubles and "explain" the universe around me.  Science is just absolutely cool enough for me and far more majestic than the bronze-age dribble that puts all-knowing, loving "fathers" in the sky, or subterranean demons behind all mischief. 

What really riles believers is that I studied the bible more than they did and continually hold it up as a mirror so they might come to the same, logical conclusion I did; it is impossible.  All of it.  I practiced the christian faith for 20 years, from a child to adulthood.  I believed.  It was hard to shed the mind manipulation associated with religion.  Somehow, the web of false doctrine is married with a genetic human disposition to believe.

So, it takes much courage to throw it all off.  However, once there, it is absolutely liberating, intellectually.  Not so I can "sin" without fear as most believers also assume you have to be secretly wanting, but by destroying all the limitations associated with the world view that gets entrenched in your very psyche.  It took me about 10 years to "de-program" from religion.  I would still find myself, when confronted with an odd occurrence or some seemingly bad situation, that I was being punished for my non-belief.  Anyone that tells you religion = morality is full of it.  The desert religions of the middle east are the most egregious; a system of award and punishment is of the lowest morality (Level One on Kohlberg's Moral Development Scale).

There is a good book on the genetic predisposition for belief; Faces in the Clouds.  It does more than any other in explaining WHY people believe, something else that I struggled with for the 10 years of deprogramming; how did I come to believe, in the first place, and how is it seemingly intelligent (or well educated) people can still believe?  The book answers that.  Another good reference is www.deconversion.com (my domain, but linked to an excellent site) which describes how the most learned in christianity drop it when they too study it to it's "logical conclusion".

I still try to look back and figure out what "triggered" my self-deprogramming, but I think it was the one real question believers never really ask themselves; why?  Why would the creator of the universe need a human sacrifice in order to forgive humans for their "sins".  When you start asking that question, in a serious way, the house of cards comes tumbling down.  You then move onto why did "he" go from animal sacrifices to human ones, why did "he" kill all those children in the OT, and what you come to realize is that you were brainwashed into a middle eastern desert cult with a bunch of childish mythology.  Eventually, one realizes that ALL religions and cults (really no difference, but in name) are just a bunch of mythologies born out of the minds of ancient people without much difference except in where they originated; hot headed zealots thrive in desert cult mythologies (jewish, christian, muslim), mild mannered tea drinking adherents thrive in cults of moderate climates (buddhism, hinduism) and everything in between.  But there is one universal truth among them; they will kill over their beliefs in their elephant god, nirvana-bound master, or bloodthirsty human sacrificing god, no matter what the origin.  That makes them dangerous.

In the US, they have and probably will kill, but mostly they just want to make sure they aren't the only "sucker" among us and continually ask the gov't to push their beliefs.  That too, makes them dangerous.  You mostly hear them say (like our revisionist current president) that this has always been and always be a christian nation which is an absolute, provable lie, but they just keep chanting it like one of their prayers.

I've been meaning to get back to this post,  I've never been able to express my thoughts as clearly, a post here and there, but you've described how I feel about religion, perfectly.
 

[Dexter Morgan]

Question Dan..... do you think all people that believe in God, or some other deity are crazy? I think there's a difference between being devoted to a belief and insanity. I've experienced individuals who are clinically deemed insane. They seem very different than people who believe in God, or some other deity.  I suppose anybody could be driven to insanity, if they became completely obsessed with their religion but, it's been my experience that most aren't completely over the edge about their beliefs.  What's your take Dan?

[dan foster]

After my "deconversion" I struggled with how it was that I could believe in the first place.  I realized that I had been brainwashed.  Then I struggled with how people that seemed intelligent (or at least educated) could believe.  I finally found the answer in Faces in the Clouds, an excellent book on how humans are predisposed, genetically, to believe.  Made perfect sense.

So, with that result, I don't think people are crazy that believe.  Since they are inherently predisposed to believe, the brainwashing is made much easier.  The church dogma that has been honed over centuries plays right into a need for some to believe, and others that are just "brought up that way" and just don't question the basics of what they have been taught.

I think MOST christians are just your average, non-lethal, person that gets by day to day without questioning anything.  No natural curiosity, no intellectual curiosity, just paying the bills, raising the kids, going to church on sunday cause "mom did".  Crazy?  No.  Sad?  Yes.  Cattle, then?  Maybe.  Many americans appear to be. 

[Henry Hawk]

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." - Romans 1:19-20

[Doc]

Amen Henry Hawk 

[Dexter Morgan]

After my "deconversion" I struggled with how it was that I could believe in the first place.  I realized that I had been brainwashed.  Then I struggled with how people that seemed intelligent (or at least educated) could believe.  I finally found the answer in Faces in the Clouds, an excellent book on how humans are predisposed, genetically, to believe.  Made perfect sense.

So, with that result, I don't think people are crazy that believe.  Since they are inherently predisposed to believe, the brainwashing is made much easier.  The church dogma that has been honed over centuries plays right into a need for some to believe, and others that are just "brought up that way" and just don't question the basics of what they have been taught.

I think MOST christians are just your average, non-lethal, person that gets by day to day without questioning anything.  No natural curiosity, no intellectual curiosity, just paying the bills, raising the kids, going to church on sunday cause "mom did".  Crazy?  No.  Sad?  Yes.  Cattle, then?  Maybe.  Many americans appear to be. 

Do you remember the tragedy at Jonestown? Jim Jones actually brainwashed his followers into believing  that he was God.  Those misguided people actually killed themselves!!!! That is radical fanaticism in every sense of the word. There are some really screwed up individuals out there, always waiting to prey upon innocent, and trusting individuals.  That is some scary crap right there. 

[Dexter Morgan]

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." - Romans 1:19-20

[dan foster]

Do you remember the tragedy at Jonestown? Jim Jones actually brainwashed his followers into believing  that he was God.  Those misguided people actually killed themselves!!!! That is radical fanaticism in every sense of the word. There are some really screwed up individuals out there, always waiting to prey upon innocent, and trusting individuals.  That is some scary crap right there. 

Jonestown, 9/11, slaughter of mormons, slaughter of muslims, protestant wars in america, church bombings, abortion clinic bombings;

Yes, those are all radical fanaticism, but only on the same continuum of brainwashing.  The top end, if you will. 

The bottom end are all those social christians who claim that "label", but don't actually participate, unless driven to a mob by "those other people; muslims, et al". 

In the middle are those church going, talk the talk, but have no idea what they are following and don't question it.  People that are brainwashed don't know they are brainwashed.  Just that simple. 

Its the upper-middle top end that bothers me; they insist America is a "christian nation" want the gov't to promote their religion (since it can't stand on it's own), want creationism taught in public schools under the ten commandments posted in every hall and room, and insist that their "right to pray" isn't a right, but a law that says everyone else has to, as well, or the whole nation will go to "hell".

[dan foster]

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." - Romans 1:19-20

Sorry, no cigar.  When you can explain why the creator of the universe is full of "wrath" upon being rejected, then you might have some claim of legitimate support.  I don't need any excuses not to believe, but seems you need every last one in order to do so.

"Eternal damnation and punishment awaits those who question God's unconditional love." -Bill Hicks

[Sandy Eggo]

I'm reading an interesting book called "Religious Literacy" by Stephen Protero. The premise of the book is that in countries, such as the US where a majority of the country claim to be deeply religious, even the most devout - are shockingly ignorant about religion.

The introduction begins "...A visiting professor from Austria offered a passing observation about American undergraduates. They are very religious, he told me, but they know next to nothing bout religion. Thanks to compulsory religious education (which in Austria begins in elementary schools), European students can name the twelve apostles and the Seven Deadly Sins, but they wouldn't be caught dead going to church or synagogue themselves. American students are just the opposite. Here faith without understanding is the standard; here religious ignorance is bliss. "

Of course he goes on to illustrate how this ignorance extends beyond the youth to the religious and nonreligious communities in general. One of the more interesting points that he makes is the danger of religious illiteracy. For example (and to paraphrase), could Waco have turned out differently had law enforcement (or someone) understood Revelations? In the aftermath of 9/11 religious ignorance led to prejudice of anyone from the middle east. President Bush mentioned that Islam is peace while televangelists claimed that it's a religion of war. Because Americans are basically ignorant of Islam...who knew which was right?

I'm really enjoying this author's perspective. I'll admit that I could be more knowledgeable regarding religion, but from what I read w/in the forums so could some who claim to be religious.