God sucks!

[Bo D]

What happened to Y? I was beginning to enjoy that little exchange with him! Cool dude!

[Y]

I don't believe that I am the first to describe the breakdown of the laws of physics in the presence of a singularity.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/19/9/4/1

"the singularity at the centre of the hole, where the density of matter and energy become infinite and all known laws of physics break down."

http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/preskill/blackhole_bet.html


"The equations of general relativity lead to the inescapable conclusion that collapsing stars, if massive enough, will keep right on collapsing, until they tear a hole in the fabric of space-time. At such a location, called a singularity, gravity is so intense that the familiar laws of physics break down."

http://www.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/bh_structure.htm

"At the center of the black hole lies a singularity, that is, a region where the current laws of physics break down because the circumstances are so extreme."

http://www.astronomytoday.com/cosmology/blackholes.html

"The boundary around the collapsed star having this radius is referred to as the 'event horizon'. Anything, whether it be light or matter passing this boundary will be forever lost within the black hole with no chance of escape. What happens beyond the event horizon nobody can tell, because all the laws of physics break down and no longer apply.

<...in my best authoritarian voice thick with parental overtones...>

"Now would you jump off a cliff if all your friends were doing it?"   

I'm sure you see my point...

[Y]

What happened to Y? I was beginning to enjoy that little exchange with him! Cool dude!

Oh Ah'll be in and out, life must supersede cyberspace ya' know.  Lata'!   

[dan foster]

Sorry, but if you are living your life on the off chance there MIGHT be a hell, then god's plan is a good one for you.

I hated blood, sweat and tears as they were one of those Dire-Straits-labeled "a trumpet playin' band".

The very idea of a demon or satan coming to "get cha", in their song lyrics speaks volumes to me.  However, I really should have rephrased my implying that one is a moron if one believes the silliness of religion.  It is a perfectly natural occurance among primates (even chimpanzee's have a form of religion), but a pretty sad holdover from genetic survival strategies that we are stuck with for a few more thousand years (takes about 20,000 years for genetic changes to express themselves in humans and we have only been reading for about 5,000 +/-).

Humans will continue to see "human action or ""intelligence"" around us in nature until we have replaced that genetic predisposition with something more reasonable, like logic.

If there is a god, do any of you think that yours is the only one, the best selection and the most perfect?  And, ultimately, who created "him"?

One of my latest, favorite quotes from Faces in the Clouds (Guthrie) is by David Hume:

         "If an intelligent being is required to explain the order in nature then the intelligent agent will in turn need to be explained....But if we stop at the agent explanation, and go no farther; why go so far?"

[~Daisy~]

Not to mention that other thought, "God always answers your prayers, sometimes, he just says No."

From George Carlin:
For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

[Locutus]

It is a perfectly natural occurance among primates (even chimpanzee's have a form of religion), but a pretty sad holdover from genetic survival strategies that we are stuck with for a few more thousand years (takes about 20,000 years for genetic changes to express themselves in humans and we have only been reading for about 5,000 +/-).

That is unless the idiots, acting in the name of religion, pummel themselves (and the rest of us) into oblivion with guns and missiles before then.

[dan foster]

That is unless the idiots, acting in the name of religion, pummel themselves (and the rest of us) into oblivion with guns and missiles before then.

That is the crux of it, is it not?  We have a "christian" leader, with plenty of backers in the US, willing to go fight them evil infidels, the muslims, in their territory.  All while there are more muslims than that willing to kill all those infidel christians "over there". 

We may never get the chance to evolve passed this crap.  Enlightenment (devoid of religion) will take some time.

[Bo D]

<...in my best authoritarian voice thick with parental overtones...>

"Now would you jump off a cliff if all your friends were doing it?"   

I'm sure you see my point...

Depends on what's at the bottom of the cliff.  (I pack my own parachute, btw!)

I do see your point. I trust you see mine as well. 

Thanks.

[Y]

Here ya' go Bo.  Interesting article and supports my previous point(s):

What We Know About the Universe Is About To Change.

The Secrets of Dark Energy

By Meg Urry
Published: May 27, 2007

What if you wanted to count the number of people who live in the United States, but you could not move or communicate beyond your home?

You might start by counting the members of your family. By looking out a window, you could add your few dozen neighbors. Using binoculars, you might be able to tally all the buildings in your town and guess at the number of people in each. At that point, you'd have surveyed your known universe and everyone you could count in it. You could then construct a theory of why your world has this number of residents.

But how would you feel if you discovered that you had missed—by a huge factor—most of the people in the U.S.? That your picture of the larger world had been horribly incomplete?

In effect, this is what happened in 1998, when it became clear that the biggest part of our universe had been hidden for all of human history. Some fundamental aspect of our world had been missed and altogether unknown.

Scientists have long recognized that the universe has been growing larger since its origin 13.7 billion years ago in an extremely rapid expansion called the "Big Bang." But we assumed that this expansion should be slowing down due to the pull of gravity. In 1998, however, two teams of astrophysicists discovered that the expansion is actually speeding up. They observed a mysterious form of "energy" that opposes gravity and is causing the galaxies throughout the universe to move apart faster and faster.

It's as if you dropped this magazine and, instead of falling to the floor, it suddenly soared toward the ceiling. That would certainly signal the presence of an unexpected force of some kind. In the same way, the galaxies' accelerated expansion signaled the presence of a previously unknown entity in the universe.

The discovery of "Dark Energy" is arguably the most important scientific breakthrough of the last 50 years. A full understanding of it eventually could have an effect on our daily lives.

But first, we have to figure out what exactly Dark Energy is. So far, we know only that it causes the expansion of the universe to speed up. We call it "dark" because we don't directly see it. " Dark" is code for "we have absolutely no clue what it is!"

Dark Energy is exciting for several reasons. Scientists have determined that Dark Energy makes up two-thirds of the universe. So, until we understand Dark Energy, we clearly cannot understand our universe. Also, Dark Energy was not predicted by standard theories of physics. That means our basic theories—our descriptions of elementary particles like electrons, neutrinos and quarks, and of the forces between them—need a major upgrade. Physics theories drive key parts of modern life, like electronics, engineering and medicine. Who knows what a more complete theory of physics could lead to?

We've been in this position before. Around the turn of the 20th century, physicists thought they understood nearly everything. Starting with Sir Isaac Newton's brilliant theory of gravity in the 17th century, scientists had successfully explained one natural phenomenon after another—from motion to optics to heat, sound and finally, by the late 19th century, electromagnetism. But then radioactivity and subatomic particles like the electron were discovered, and these phenomena could be explained only with the invention of quantum mechanics—a new theory governing the physics of very tiny distances. At the time, quantum theory appeared to have little immediate practical value. Yet quantum mechanics dominates our daily lives today. It's at the heart of computers, medical devices, cell phones, cameras, iPods and every other modern electronic device.

Now history seems to be repeating itself. Until very recently, we thought we were on the brink of understanding all of cosmology—then came Dark Energy.  It is far too soon to know whether Dark Energy will fuel the economic engine of the 21st century the way quantum mechanics drove that of the last 50 years. But if history is a guide, it's clear we're on the brink of dramatic changes.

What excites me personally is how the discovery of Dark Energy illustrates that science is not a set of beliefs that one constructs. Instead, scientists observe nature, then develop theories that describe their observations. Science is driven by nature itself, and nature gives us no choice. It is what it is.

As new facts emerge, scientific theories can be proved wrong or in need of modification, but scientists cannot ignore them. Eventually the facts will lead to the right theory.

What's next? NASA, the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation have joined forces to plan space satellites and ground-based telescopes that will probe the properties of Dark Energy. What we observe about the history of Dark Energy light-years away will have huge implications for the future of the universe. If Dark Energy gets weaker, gravity could take over again and pull the universe back together. Scientists refer to this fate as the "Big Crunch." If Dark Energy gets stronger with time, it eventually may pull apart the galaxies, stars and planets now held together by gravity. This is called the "Big Rip." Or the universe could have an intermediate fate, expanding gradually to a vast, cold, empty place—called the "Big Chill." When we understand Dark Energy, we will be able to predict which of these (or other) futures is most likely.

The answers are there, and I have no doubt that we will figure them out with the contributions of the smart young people now taking high school physics—though it may take a decade or two. We are now at the beginning of a great new adventure to push forward the frontiers of understanding.


Prof. Meg Urry will become chair of the Department of Physics at Yale this July and is a renowned researcher in the area of massive black holes.

The Thrill of Big Ideas
Every so often in the history of science, a theory is presented that transforms our thinking about the universe we inhabit.

The Earth revolves around the Sun. In the 16th century, Copernicus' heliocentric theory of the heavens ushered in the age of modern science.

What goes up must come down. In the 17th century, Sir Isaac Newton showed that the Law of Gravity applied to all objects in the universe.

E=mc2. Perhaps the most famous equation ever. Albert Einstein's Theory of Relativity revolutionized ideas about energy.

Think small. Niels Bohr was a contributor to quantum mechanics, which explains the universe at the atomic level and is the basis for our electronic devices.

[Bo D]

What excites me personally is how the discovery of Dark Energy illustrates that science is not a set of beliefs that one constructs. Instead, scientists observe nature, then develop theories that describe their observations. Science is driven by nature itself, and nature gives us no choice. It is what it is.

As new facts emerge, scientific theories can be proved wrong or in need of modification, but scientists cannot ignore them. Eventually the facts will lead to the right theory.

We are now at the beginning of a great new adventure to push forward the frontiers of understanding.

Thank you, Y. Yes...I read that article recently. Very interesting. I particularly liked the sections excerpted above. But regarding the "frontiers of understanding" I believe there will always be a horizon over which we cannot see.

By the way, I also recently an article that may negate the "Dark Energy" concept of a forever expanding universe. It seems that scientists have been searching for evidence of a sufficient quantity of "Dark Matter" to keep the universe from flying apart. Not they may have found it. After all...."As new facts emerge, scientific theories can be proved wrong or in need of modification, but scientists cannot ignore them. Eventually the facts will lead to the right theory."

Ring of Dark Matter Found Around a Galaxy

Scientists believe they have found a ring of mysterious dark matter surrounding a distant galaxy -- a potential breakthrough in identifying the most widely distributed but least understood particles in the universe.

Using the Hubble Space Telescope, astronomers identified the ghostly ring that they said was created by the long-ago collision of two galaxy clusters. The dark matter itself was not visible -- it does not shine or reflect light -- but it left a distinct "footprint" in the shapes of background galaxies. Although the presence of dark matter has been detected before, it has always been far more interspersed among the hot gases and galaxies that make up galaxy clusters.

"This is the strongest evidence so far for the existence of dark matter," said astronomer M. James Jee of Johns Hopkins University. He likened dark matter to the wind -- which we cannot see except through its effects on other objects.

Scientists believe they have found a ring of mysterious dark matter surrounding a distant galaxy -- a potential breakthrough in identifying the most widely distributed but least understood particles in the universe.

Using the Hubble Space Telescope, astronomers identified the ghostly ring that they said was created by the long-ago collision of two galaxy clusters. The dark matter itself was not visible -- it does not shine or reflect light -- but it left a distinct "footprint" in the shapes of background galaxies. Although the presence of dark matter has been detected before, it has always been far more interspersed among the hot gases and galaxies that make up galaxy clusters.

"This is the strongest evidence so far for the existence of dark matter," said astronomer M. James Jee of Johns Hopkins University. He likened dark matter to the wind -- which we cannot see except through its effects on other objects.

Astronomers have long theorized the existence of the invisible substance because without its mass, galaxy clusters would not have sufficient gravity to keep from flying apart.

The ring is huge, measuring 2.6 million light-years across. It was found in a galaxy cluster 5 billion light-years from Earth. Jee said he was first annoyed when he saw the ring because he assumed it was a distortion or artifact. It took months of checking and rechecking before his team became convinced that the ring was actually a manifestation of dark matter.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/20/AR2007052001270.html

[Y]

Thank you, Y. Yes...I read that article recently. Very interesting. I particularly liked the sections excerpted above. But regarding the "frontiers of understanding" I believe there will always be a horizon over which we cannot see.

Thanks for the article, another interesting one.

Now whether "there will always be a horizon over which we cannot see" is a probability (it certainly exists as a possibility), only time will tell. 

I have to ask though, what are you implying with that assertion?

[Bo D]

Thanks for the article, another interesting one.

Now whether "there will always be a horizon over which we cannot see" is a probability (it certainly exists as a possibility), only time will tell. 

I have to ask though, what are you implying with that assertion?

No implication intended. You know that old saying? "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know."

I don't know. Do you ever think there will come a time when we know everything?

[Y]

No implication intended. You know that old saying? "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know."

I don't know. Do you ever think there will come a time when we know everything?

Who knows...

As long as the authoritarian political and religious lust for power and possessions doesn't render intellectualism something which should be (metaphorically speaking) burnt at the stake, humanity might continue to learn enough to cast off the ghosts of its less civilized past.

[Locutus]

As long as the authoritarian political and religious lust for power and possessions doesn't render intellectualism something which should be (metaphorically speaking) burnt at the stake, humanity might continue to learn enough to cast off the ghosts of its less civilized past.

That day can't come soon enough for me.  Unfortunately, it's most likely going to take a few more thousand years.  Hopefully, the stupid among us won't find a way to kill us all off in the meantime.

[Bo D]

Who knows...

As long as the authoritarian political and religious lust for power and possessions doesn't render intellectualism something which should be (metaphorically speaking) burnt at the stake, humanity might continue to learn enough to cast off the ghosts of its less civilized past.

Oh, but that wasn't an answer to my question, now was it? Let's assume for conjecture's sake that we overcome all resistance to  intellectualism.

Do you ever think there will come a time when we know everything there is to know?

Personally, I don't think that mankind in it's present form/stage-of-evolution will last long enough to fathom every single mystery of the universe.