Public Unions & Collective Bargaining Thread....right or wrong?

[Palehorse]

roll your eyes, that is fine with me....I know, I work with these guys.  I have had plenty of discussions with them.

Enjoy it while it lasts, because you know as well as I do that the legislation under consideration in this state is going to serve to slash the throats of every single one of those guys and send them to the social assistance roles. . .[

The fact is, whatever is happening in Wisconsin is going to happen right here too. You can take that to the bank. . .

And those Tea Parties aren't going to be immune from it either. . .

[Palehorse]

and this WILL be a good thing for hoosiers.....except those who are public employees and NOW, they will be on a level playing field with the rest of us....and the taxpayer will be the winners.

No, it won't. When it impacts you personally, and it WILL, you will sing another tune. (You heard it here first folks so mark the date and take notes).

[Palehorse]

Seriously Henry, your stance on all of this has me very worried about you. Anyone else working in an industry that relies on UNION trades for their well being is shaking in their boots over this. They see clearly that this legislation will mark the end of their livelihoods. Why don't you see that????

[Henry Hawk]

Seriously Henry, your stance on all of this has me very worried about you. Anyone else working in an industry that relies on UNION trades for their well being is shaking in their boots over this. They see clearly that this legislation will mark the end of their livelihoods. Why don't you see that????

I have talked to several Palehorse, I was not born yesterday.  This is nothing more than a power ploy by the unions to scare it's masses.  This is all about the teachers union.  It is a reality check for some of these private unions who have been getting fat for years now.  It is time to stop the abuse on the taxpayers.  The only thing this will do to the IBEW is remind them of what happens when you get too greedy.  There will be some negotiating ONCE the dems come back....The pendulam has got to swing back.  It has been stuck on one side for too long.

[Henry Hawk]

btw, we do not HAVE to use union trades.  We do so because they are good workers, well trained and are some of the best.  I have no problem with the IBEW, except they are making it difficult for us to compete in the market, because it costs us more every contract time...the want more and more and more EVERY year.....even though the rest of the working class is cutting back.

[Henry Hawk]

Maybe it IS time for the POTUS to get involved....


Capitol Chaos: Lawmakers Get Death Threats

MADISON - The State Department of Justice confirms that it is investigating several death threats against a number of lawmakers in response to the legislature's move to strip employees of many collective bargaining rights.
Among the threats the Justice Department is investigationg is one that was emailed to Republican Senators Wednesday night.  Newsradio 620 WTMJ has obtained that email.

The following is the unedited email:
Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes
will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain
to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it
will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit
that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for
more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in
the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me
have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that
support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing
with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand
for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave
it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the
message to you since you are so "high" on Koch and have decided that you are
now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a
demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed
in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.
This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't
tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are
not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided
to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's
necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you. Please
understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked
everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel
that it's worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives
of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and
say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!
Reply Reply to all Forward

[Palehorse]

I have talked to several Palehorse, I was not born yesterday.  This is nothing more than a power ploy by the unions to scare it's masses.  This is all about the teachers union.  It is a reality check for some of these private unions who have been getting fat for years now.  It is time to stop the abuse on the taxpayers.  The only thing this will do to the IBEW is remind them of what happens when you get too greedy.  There will be some negotiating ONCE the dems come back....The pendulam has got to swing back.  It has been stuck on one side for too long.

btw, we do not HAVE to use union trades.  We do so because they are good workers, well trained and are some of the best.  I have no problem with the IBEW, except they are making it difficult for us to compete in the market, because it costs us more every contract time...the want more and more and more EVERY year.....even though the rest of the working class is cutting back.

Man, you are so misinformed. . . Remember, you are talking to a guy who HATED unions and everything they stand for. . . until I moved to Indiana.

In states like Illinois, unions are redundant and that served to fuel my perspectives on them. Once I moved here, and realized Indiana's "at will" status unfairly stacked the deck against the workers at all levels, I began to realize the ONLY safe haven for workers in this state is the union. It changed my mind it is so bad in this state.

I don't disagree that there are abuses in the system; on BOTH sides, and it ranges from unreasonable wage demands to selling out the future of a company via unreasonable concessions made for short range success. But IMHO selling out all unions and all workers in the state, by undermining the validity and negotiating power of all unions is akin to slitting our own throats. It provides additional power to the corporation/owner in an environment that ALREADY provides them an unacceptable level of power to begin with. Power that they abuse across the board in this state.

You may not see it within your company yet, but mark my words you will if things continue as they are going now. You've been lucky thus far, but even luck has its limitations. . . And when the company you work for begins to see they are going to HAVE to make some hard choices, it will be no more Mr. Nice Guy. . . And the mask will come off.

[Henry Hawk]

Palehorse AGAIN, this whole deal is about public unions.  Teachers in particular.  All the hype is brought on by the private unions.  They are fearful they are next.  That is not the case though.

The fact is, there should be NO person who wants to work for the State, a teacher in particular, that should be forced to join and forced to pay union dues.  Also, the fact that the Gov now wants them to pay a small portion of THEIR pension and Healthcare, to keep from laying off more teachers.  THIS is a problem that many taxpayers want fixed.

Private Unions have no immediate ramifications from this.  NONE!

[Palehorse]

Maybe it IS time for the POTUS to get involved....


Capitol Chaos: Lawmakers Get Death Threats

MADISON - The State Department of Justice confirms that it is investigating several death threats against a number of lawmakers in response to the legislature's move to strip employees of many collective bargaining rights.
Among the threats the Justice Department is investigationg is one that was emailed to Republican Senators Wednesday night.  Newsradio 620 WTMJ has obtained that email.

The following is the unedited email:
Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes
will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain
to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it
will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit
that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for
more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in
the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me
have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that
support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing
with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand
for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave
it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the
message to you since you are so "high" on Koch and have decided that you are
now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a
demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed
in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.
This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't
tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are
not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided
to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's
necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you. Please
understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked
everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel
that it's worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives
of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and
say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!
Reply Reply to all Forward

Why? It is an internal issue within the state, and the state's responsibility to address within the constricts of the law.

When you mess with people's livelihoods, especially in times as severely depressed as these, you just cannot expect them to roll over and take it. . . (Not that I am condoning or in any way supporting this action mind you).

The above merely serves to accentuate the level of emotional rage the people of the state of Wisconsin feel over what their elected officials are trying to ram down their throats!

I wonder if those who have been newly elected would have been successful in obtaining office had they disclosed the fact that this was one of their intentions?

I wonder why, if these elected officials feel so strongly that this needs to be passed, why they do not put it to a yes/no vote by the people of the state?

[Palehorse]

Palehorse AGAIN, this whole deal is about public unions.  Teachers in particular.  All the hype is brought on by the private unions.  They are fearful they are next.  That is not the case though.

The fact is, there should be NO person who wants to work for the State, a teacher in particular, that should be forced to join and forced to pay union dues.  Also, the fact that the Gov now wants them to pay a small portion of THEIR pension and Healthcare, to keep from laying off more teachers.  THIS is a problem that many taxpayers want fixed.

Private Unions have no immediate ramifications from this.  NONE!

Yep. That would be the exact validation they are using to bust the unions in the states.

But, the fact of the matter is that when this happens, corporate Amerika will be stampeding to obtain the very same ability in private industry, and since 90+% of our elected representation is in the back pocket of corporate Amerika, do you really have to ask which way that is going to go?

Lemme ask you this, what ever happened to living within your means? Leave it as it is and lay off!

The fact is in the state of Wisconsin teachers and all public workers had agreed to concessions in order to avoid teacher layoffs, but the republicans chose instead to enact union busting legislation.

And by the way, federal law ALREADY covers the point of being "forced into a union or to pay dues", by making it illegal to be done. So WHY does ANY state feel this is necessary? If it is being done, then there is a federal law against it under which they can be prosecuted. Why the redundancy??????

[The Troll]

  What I would like to see is more Republicans and Teabaggers with a heart.  For these people to have a heart, caring about other people, caring for poor people, widows and orphans.  Caring about less intelligent people, than they think they are.  These people that would want their fellow men and women to have a good job, make good money and wanting to have good health care.

  But what we have how and you can see it every day right here on the Zone.  Is that they only care about themselves, not wanting to pay tax for the betterment of all of the people in America.  Wanting to  preserve their life style at some ones else's expense.  Stabbing everyone who wants to protect themselves from the uncaring Slave Masters of the work force.

  Professing to be a God fearing person, but will stab anyone in the back, keeping him or her down.  I think it is some form of insecurity lack of self esteem, maybe even cowards.  With them they have to have someone to look down at.  Wanting to take a woman's rights away from her and want to throw their religion down some else's throat.

  Yes, this is the present day Republicans and Tea Party people.  Let us pray.   and a 

[Henry Hawk]

The fact is in the state of Wisconsin teachers and all public workers had agreed to concessions in order to avoid teacher layoffs, but the republicans chose instead to enact union busting legislation.

the fled the state.....there is no concessions when they are not here to concess.

Palehorse, I know there is dirty laundry on both sides....I am not ignorant to think that there are not those who want the Unions to be busted, but realisticly THAT is not going to happen.  We both know this.  I am sick and tired of the NEA and their stronghold over our Schools.  I am also, sick and tired of wasted tax dollars.

[Palehorse]

Yep. That would be the exact validation they are using to bust the unions in the states.

But, the fact of the matter is that when this happens, corporate Amerika will be stampeding to obtain the very same ability in private industry, and since 90+% of our elected representation is in the back pocket of corporate Amerika, do you really have to ask which way that is going to go?

Lemme ask you this, what ever happened to living within your means? Leave it as it is and lay off!

The fact is in the state of Wisconsin teachers and all public workers had agreed to concessions in order to avoid teacher layoffs, but the republicans chose instead to enact union busting legislation.

And by the way, federal law ALREADY covers the point of being "forced into a union or to pay dues", by making it illegal to be done. So WHY does ANY state feel this is necessary? If it is being done, then there is a federal law against it under which they can be prosecuted. Why the redundancy??????

and before you ask:

(*) Taft-Hartley Act
It was not until two years after the close of World War II that the first major modification of the National Labor Relations Act was enacted. In 1947, the Labor-Management Relations Act -- also known as the Taft-Hartley Act, after its two sponsors, Sen. Robert A. Taft (OH-R) and Rep. Fred A. Hartley, Jr. (NJ-R) -- was passed by Congress, Vetoed by President Truman (on the basis that it was anti- Labor), and then reapproved over his veto. This comprehensive measure:

(*) established procedures for delaying or averting so-called "national emergency" strikes;
(*) excluded supervisory employees from coverage of the Wagner Act;
(*) prohibited the "closed shop" altogether;
(*) banned closed-shop union hiring halls that discriminated against non-union members.

Taft-Hartley retained the Wagner Act's basic guarantees of workers' rights to join unions, bargain collectively, and strike [Gee, thanks!--HB], and retained the same list of unfair labor practices forbidden to employers. The Act also added a list of unfair labor practices forbidden to unions. These included:
(*) restraint or coercion of workers exercising their rights to bargain through representatives of their choosing;
(*) coercion of an employer in his choice of persons to represent him in discussions with unions;
(*) refusal of unions to bargain collectively;
(*) barring a worker from employment because he had been denied union membership for any reason except non-payment of dues;
(*) striking to force an employer or self-employed person to join a union;
(*) secondary boycotts;
(*) various types of strikes or boycotts involving interunion conflict or jurisdictional agreements;
(*) Levying of excessive union initiation fees;
(*) certain forms of "featherbedding" (payment for work not actually performed).

The Taft-Hartley Act included a number of other provisions. These included:
(*) authorization of suits against unions for violations of their economic contracts;
(*) authorization of damage suits for economic losses caused by secondary boycotts and certain strikes;
(*) relaxation of the Norris-LaGuardia Act to permit injunctions against specified categories of unfair labor practice;
(*) establishment of a 60-day no-strike and no-lockout notice period for any party seeking to cancel an existing collective bargaining agreement;
(*) a requirement that unions desiring status under the law and recourse to NLRB protection file specified financial reports and documents with the U.S. Department of Labor;
(*) the abolition of the U.S. Conciliation Service and establishment of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service;
(*) a prohibition against corporate or union contributions or expenditures with respect to elections to any Federal office;
(*) a reorganization of the NLRB and a limitation on its power;
(*) a prohibition on strikes against the government;
(*) the banning of various types of employer payments to union officials.

[Palehorse]

the fled the state.....there is no concessions when they are not here to concess.

Palehorse, I know there is dirty laundry on both sides....I am not ignorant to think that there are not those who want the Unions to be busted, but realisticly THAT is not going to happen.  We both know this.  I am sick and tired of the NEA and their stronghold over our Schools.  I am also, sick and tired of wasted tax dollars.

Apples and oranges. . . Democrats exercised their right to caucus outside of the state AFTER the republicans declined concessions offered up by the unions and their membership within the state and instead attempted to ram this anti union legislation down everyone's throat.

[Henry Hawk]

But what we have how and you can see it every day right here on the Zone.  Is that they only care about themselves, not wanting to pay tax for the betterment of all of the people in America.  Wanting to  preserve their life style at some ones else's expense.  Stabbing everyone who wants to protect themselves from the uncaring Slave Masters of the work force.

  Professing to be a God fearing person, but will stab anyone in the back, keeping him or her down.  I think it is some form of insecurity lack of self esteem, maybe even cowards.  With them they have to have someone to look down at.  Wanting to take a woman's rights away from her and want to throw their religion down some else's throat.

 

I want the truth from my zoners, do you see that here?  There are roughly four of us who regulary post.  Is that the vibe you get from us?

I'm sick of certain people blabbing in the air......making generalizations.  Do I throw religion at you guys? Do I put down women?

Somebody needs to have some balls, and tell this person to grow up and discuss, and quit the bashing just because others have differing opinions on how to make this country an better place.

Do you think I am willing to stab others in the back?