What's the Common Denominator?

[Exterminator]

This is obviously an engineering problem and I don't think it has anything to do with who did the engineering.  My guess is that this happened during the move from a mechanical accelerator to an electronic accelerator and some aspect of the latter's function that allows this fault was not anticipated.  It is not possible to forsee every possible contingency in any design, ergo, there are no perfect systems.

[Mr442]

In reading the Yahoo story PH  linked to, the problem lies around condensation getting into the pedal mechanism.  Whether it causes the actual pedal to stick, or causes a short in the electronics is still unknown to me, but either way it ain't good.  Definitely and engineering problem, and not cheap to fix.

All these drive by wire accelerators are nothing more than glorified rheostats, like you use in your house to dim the lights.  Don't that make you feel better? 

[Palehorse]

No doubt. Makes me a bit worried about the throttle on the steel horse, since it too is "fly by wire" and not the traditional cable type.

I suppose I should go ahead and make my "point" since it doesn't seem apparent to anyone else.

What ever happened to the pride American workers used to take in their jobs? What ever happened to the word "quality' as it relates to American manufacturing?

I find it more than a bit ironic that once Toyota incorporated American workers, engineers, designers, leadership, etc., into their company processes, major malfunctions began rearing their head. And while it is true that none of us here knows what really happened to drive the current problems Toyota and Honda are experiencing in their current product line, the other part of this is will we ever really know? Did we ever with the "big 3"?

If these incidents hold true to past history, they'll make the necessary corrections, but they really will not drive the investigation toward a true root cause analysis; because it will cost too much. THAT is what I believe to be the true common denominator in these incidents.

In manufacturing mistakes will be made, whether it the fault of the workers, the design, the engineering, or the processes involved; the number one job of the quality function is to enact supporting checks that will identify these mistakes BEFORE they get out to millions of end use customers.

Whether this is comprised of pre production testing procedures, mid production/WIP testing, and finished product testing; it needs to be timely and effective toward remediation of issues like these that have transpired, in order to prevent the unnecessary loss of human life or drastic reduction of quality of life of the end users.

Far too often I have seen quality take a back seat to production within American manufacturing. Yes, it is costly at times, but when the end product you are manufacturing touches the lives of millions of people world wide each and every day, doesn't it make sense to spend the money up front, rather than risk a costly challenge after the fact? Pay me now, or pay me later, but later is always the fiscally irresponsible choice; and the choice American manufacturing seems to have made for decades.

To me this is a symptom that indicates that two foreign companies whose names have historically been synonymous with the word "quality" have now fallen victim to American values; values that are far more accepting of mediocrity than these companies traditionally have been willing to accept.

They clearly have turned over control at key decision making milestones, to those who endorse these less than stellar acceptance levels, in an effort to appease the American consumer's desire to "buy American".  A marketing ploy that now threatens to blow up in their faces and undo any progression they have made.

Guys like Deming made their names in Japanese manufacturing, and because of Japan's dedication to these quality ideals they have had a pretty good run in the automobile manufacturing  sector, among others. America has traditionally given these same quality ideals "lip-service", while one company after another began trying to incorporate them into their processes; but in an overwhelming number of cases within a year or two the whole thing is reduced to nothing more than a dog and pony show that the company utilizes to placate its customers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

I am sorry to say I suspected that something like this would eventually happen to Toyota and Honda, but clearly my suspicions were spot on. Remember, these companies utilize American companies to keep their supply lines filled with the sub assemblies necessary to build their products too. And each one of these suppliers increases the likelihood of further incidents exponentially, since audits of these companies and their processes are the responsibility of the manufacturing sites utilizing them.

I know all of this sounds anti-American, and to be truthful it pains me to be writing such things. But I've never let that stand in the way of truth before, and I am not about to start doing so now.

Throughout my career I have been involved at every level within the quality processes of the companies I have worked for, and each and every one of them contributed significantly to the position I am taking within this post. The high standards foreign entities maintain within their various processes are nothing more than a dog and pony show to American manufacturing leadership. Always has been that way.

[Mr442]

You make a good point, and FWIW I had an idea where you were headed.  But I don't think you can blame the workers as much as you can management.  Management are the ones who demand that everything be built for the lowest price, quality be damned.  Management is the group that will accept a certain percentage of bad parts, as long as the bottom line is held.  Those guys will get their bonuses for saving money up front, then move on up the ladder.  Leaving someone else to deal with the aftermath.  I'd be willing to bet that there were meeting in which some young, idealistic engineer pointed out a potential problem with the design, and who was quickly told to STFU by his superiors.

I think at one time, quality was priority for these automakers.  They had to offer something to get Americans in those little shit-box cars.  Now that a large percentage have drank the kool-aid, they have backed off on quality to save money.

I don't blame the workers, but I do blame those who hold the purse strings.

[followsthewolf]

I own a '98 Avalon with over 200,000 miles on it.

It has been darn near bulletproof, especially when compared to the Chevys, Fords, Dodges, Plymouths, and Chryslers I have owned/still own. My maintenance costs have been a third.

Hard to argue with "shit-box" stats like that, especially when you ride in the Avalon. Doesn't feel like a shit box to me. And, for what it's worth, it's built here.

[Palehorse]

Leadership certainly shoulders its well deserved share of the blame in all of this. Any initiative, whether it is a quality, production, cost saving, or an efficiency oriented program, is only going to be as successful as the measure of endorsement put into it at the leadership level.

Clearly Toyota and Honda dropped the ball when it comes to quality.

I read an article on Toyota yesterday that emphasized the fact that they grew so quickly that they neglected to incorporate technology into the "Toyota Way" and arm it with the means necessary to remain effective and grow. It said that despite the growth the decision chain still remains with Japan at the head; with no delegation to a North American proxy. The resulting delay means that had Japan known of this potential problem, the same amount of time would have lapsed in deciding to remediate it. (That decision chain remains as it was when it began over 50 years ago).

It also pointed out that Toyota chose a North American supplier to produce its accelerator component but no one performed due diligence to ensure that the parts produced by the Japanese supplier and American supplier were identical, which they were not, despite this being the objective out of the gate.

Another key component in all of this is the fact that when one individual or sector of the process makes a mistake, it is a shared mistake. Shared in that it is everybody's problem and everybody's mistake. The team failed and the team shares in the remediation effort and its consequences.

Toyota has historically been famous for its "root cause analysis" and remediation process. Lets see if that still applies given the scope of this problem, its key drivers, and what will be required to properly address them. Anything less than what they have customarily undertaken in such situations in the past will be unacceptable, since now the world is watching along with the American wolves, (Big 3).

[followsthewolf]

The prayers from the traditional American vehicle manufacturers for Toyota's failure are almost as audible as those from republicans for Obama's.

[Palehorse]

The prayers from the traditional American vehicle manufacturers for Toyota's failure are almost as audible as those from republicans for Obama's.

Yep! 

[Mr442]

Let me define "shit-box" in relation to Japanese (or any import) cars.  When Toyota, Datsun (now Nissan), and the rest hit our shores, there were no Avalons on the mix.  Just teeny tiny cars that made VW bugs feel roomy.  Now they make and import some nice cars, but in the beginning it just was not that way.

The people who bought them, never pushed them too awful hard, so the drivelines and other systems outlasted the rust prone bodies.  These same folks that never pushed these little things, gave them good care, and ended up with the mindset that the cars were dependable, even more so than US built autos.  Whether these cars really were better or not remains a question to many, but no matter, they ended up with that reputation.  I know a guy who brags about a Yugo he once owned, and how good it was, so take all of these quality claims for what they are worth.  Now that more and more of the general population own these various imports, we are starting to see a drop in quality.  Well maybe we are, but maybe it was always there.  Maybe some owners are pushing them harder and now we are seeing various failures as a result.  I don't for certain, but it would be a safe bet.

FWIW, we have a VW golf with 250,000 ( yes thats a quarter of a million) miles on it, and it has had very little done other than basic maintenanace.  We also drive it like we stole it day in and day out.  Is it any better than other vehicles?  I can't really say, I've had others that have held up as well, and others that did not.  Most of the did nots had previous owners who inflicted hidden damage, so..........

[Palehorse]

Let me define "shit-box" in relation to Japanese (or any import) cars.  When Toyota, Datsun (now Nissan), and the rest hit our shores, there were no Avalons on the mix.  Just teeny tiny cars that made VW bugs feel roomy.  Now they make and import some nice cars, but in the beginning it just was not that way.

The people who bought them, never pushed them too awful hard, so the drivelines and other systems outlasted the rust prone bodies.  These same folks that never pushed these little things, gave them good care, and ended up with the mindset that the cars were dependable, even more so than US built autos.  Whether these cars really were better or not remains a question to many, but no matter, they ended up with that reputation.  I know a guy who brags about a Yugo he once owned, and how good it was, so take all of these quality claims for what they are worth.  Now that more and more of the general population own these various imports, we are starting to see a drop in quality.  Well maybe we are, but maybe it was always there.  Maybe some owners are pushing them harder and now we are seeing various failures as a result.  I don't for certain, but it would be a safe bet.

FWIW, we have a VW golf with 250,000 ( yes thats a quarter of a million) miles on it, and it has had very little done other than basic maintenanace.  We also drive it like we stole it day in and day out.  Is it any better than other vehicles?  I can't really say, I've had others that have held up as well, and others that did not.  Most of the did nots had previous owners who inflicted hidden damage, so..........

The very same can be said for the same portion of consumers that were purchasing from the big 3 back in the day; some folks just do not use a motor vehicle the same as others at both ends of the spectrum. It is a fairly safe assumption to say that the number is proportionate to the market share a particular brand enjoys, although statistically it could go one way or another randomly.

I have also had vehicles from the "big 3" that went the distance with me, and the only reason I traded them off was the fact that I was no longer comfortable in using the vehicle(s) in my daily driving routine. The vehicles were sound mechanically and performing as they always did when I traded them off. (In both instances the odometer exceeded 150k miles and I was driving 2 hours each way to work at the time. I just figured my luck was probably running on vapors).

My current vehicle has 104k on it, and I would not hesitate to get in it and drive anywhere in the world that it is possible to drive to. It is a big 3 vehicle and diesel powered, so I just expect more from it.

I have known individuals that were staunch advocates of the likes of Toyota, (etc.), vehicles, and they pushed their vehicles just as hard as I ever did on a daily basis. The lion's share of them kept those vehicles for in excess of a decade, and they handed them down to their children when they replaced them with another of the same brand.

I've known about two that had encountered major problems, (engine, drive train, safety), and one of them had such a bad experience that he swore off them for the balance of his life. (At the time. Who knows if he still holds to it).

In comparison I have known more folks than I can count to have major issues with their big 3 vehicles, and a majority of the time these issues drove them away from the brand. (I am included in that grouping).

Then there's the brand loyalty factor to figure into the mix. Some folks just want to drive the same brand of vehicle no matter what. They just do not want to "fix" what isn't broken, or are afraid of change. It would take the demise of the brand to get them to switch, and even then they would go reluctantly. . .

My wife has driven Pontiac vehicles for a very long time now. Her last 6 cars were Pontiac, and the one she is presently driving she loves. I asked her the other day what we were going to do when the time comes to replace it, and she surprised me by saying she wants a foreign model/brand that shall remain nameless here. I could not disagree with her, but still am working on trying to get her into a Camaro. 

[Mr442]

I have sworn off Chrysler products and Chevrolets, due to bad experiences with both.  But yet I would consider a GMC.  Go figure

At first when I heard of sticking accelerator pedals in Toyotas, I was stunned to think that any of the owners had pushed on them hard enough to get one to stick

[Palehorse]

I have sworn off Chrysler products and Chevrolets, due to bad experiences with both.  But yet I would consider a GMC.  Go figure

At first when I heard of sticking accelerator pedals in Toyotas, I was stunned to think that any of the owners had pushed on them hard enough to get one to stick

I swore off Chrysler products when I had a bad experience with a 1970's Dodge Dart Sport - sticking choke and a front end that threatened to fall apart at any given moment.

Then I started having the same experiences with the Dodge Ram 4 x 4's we drove at work. That convinced me. . . Until 1989 when I bought a brand new Jeep Wrangler. . .And guess what! Same crap only now it was eating fuel filters like they were candy too!

When the EGR valve started malfunctioning and causing it to surge, (and after having it fixed twice for the same thing only to have it appear again within a day both times), I drove the thing to a Ford Dealership and bought a 4 x 4 Ranger Supercab.  That was the best truck I ever owned until I bought my present vehicle. Reliable as hell and purred until the day I traded her in on. . . A Dodge Dakota  (They were eating brake rotors and pads at that time, but hey it started with no problems!). . . The Dakota went for the one I am driving now. . . in 2003. 

[followsthewolf]

Gave my Camry to my grandson. The last I looked, it had 265,000 or so on it -- and my grandson is not gentle with it, even during winter commutes to college (he's a junior).

[followsthewolf]

It occurs to me that attitudes are somewhat askew.

Who is it praying for the screw-up?

The auto manufacturers in Detroit? Sure.

The general public? Seems like some are happy about it.

Isn't that counter-productive? I mean, if you want a product (in this case, an auto) to improve, then ALL manufacturers should have to produce increasingly superior products. Instead, what we have is a failure by one, which then lowers the bar for the others and almost gives them a free pass to produce less-than-superior product.

We, as consumers should be rooting for EVERY manufacturer (of all products, not just automobiles) to be pressed to produce the very best product they can, so we end up having a large group of very good products to choose from, not the poor offspring of a second-best company because the best had a problem.

[Palehorse]

It occurs to me that attitudes are somewhat askew.

Who is it praying for the screw-up?

The auto manufacturers in Detroit? Sure.

The general public? Seems like some are happy about it.

Isn't that counter-productive? I mean, if you want a product (in this case, an auto) to improve, then ALL manufacturers should have to produce increasingly superior products. Instead, what we have is a failure by one, which then lowers the bar for the others and almost gives them a free pass to produce less-than-superior product.

We, as consumers should be rooting for EVERY manufacturer (of all products, not just automobiles) to be pressed to produce the very best product they can, so we end up having a large group of very good products to choose from, not the poor offspring of a second-best company because the best had a problem.

Spot on FTW! 

(Possibly a symptom of the dog and pony show quality has become in America?)