Onward Christian Soldiers! - Kansas abortion doctor killed.

[Palehorse]

Now we know why Mommie Dearest had such an aversion to wire hangers! 

Seriously... when you go back to the coat hanger days, one must remember that:

1) there was not a wealth of reliable birth control to use,

2) there were not the welfare programs available today for welfare moms,

3) a woman was severely ostracized for birthing children out of wedlock.

So, either way, I don't see society headed back to coathangers.

Also, before men were involved in controlling women's bodies en toto, there were wise women who knew how to deal with these situations privately... from birth control to oops control for those who were weary or impoverished.

I believe the case can be made that when men took over the healing/nurturing aspects, women started impaling themselves on coat hangers.

Interesting conjecture that, but I'd be interested in just how it is that there are so many choosing abortion nonetheless today.

The fact is that reproduction is a fierce driver within our genetic makeup, especially when we are young. Legal standing of abortion notwithstanding, unwanted impregnation is going to remain the result and so is abortion. That cannot be controlled. Women will have abortions and I believe they have the right to make that choice.

Removing that right by making the procedure illegal will only drive them to seek out alternative venues to have it performed. Historic statistics validate the results that will come to pass should this be the case. The slaughter and mangling of women will start anew should this transpire, although I will submit that society's penchant for statistics may feed a quicker reinstatement of legalized abortion once the women begin dying and being rendered sterile over it.

. . .when men took over the healing/nurturing aspects, women started impaling themselves on coat hangers.

That may have been true "back in the day" however I believe that the women of today are better informed, hold a stronger standing within society and the world, and thusly are better prepared to deal with the situation. Certainly they have proven themselves more than capable of dealing with healthcare and nurturing challenges and today hold positions of authority within this and every other field.

[Freethinker]

That may have been true "back in the day" however I believe that the women of today are better informed, hold a stronger standing within society and the world, and thusly are better prepared to deal with the situation. Certainly they have proven themselves more than capable of dealing with healthcare and nurturing challenges and today hold positions of authority within this and every other field.

Then why are there still so many abortions?

I don't really believe there are near as many in recent years. Back when I used to get emails from the abortion rights people, they were saying Oklahoma was down to one or two clinics, from originally something like 50.

And whether it be yesterday or today, legal or illegal... I don't think many women handle the emotional aspects of the procedure well.

I'm also not terribly impressed with the women's movement today. Mostly, it's a bunch of women who loathe cosmetics and like to act like men. Noooo, thank ya. I don't consider that a terribly nurturing environment.

[LOsborne]

I'm also not terribly impressed with the women's movement today. Mostly, it's a bunch of women who loathe cosmetics and like to act like men. Noooo, thank ya. I don't consider that a terribly nurturing environment.

I haven't heard much lately in this country about the women's movement. With the ratification of Titles vii, ix and xx, we pretty much won. All that is left is to enforce the law in court, when it is necessary. I'm sure there are a few shrill grandstanders still hollering for the cameras, just as there are still some union bosses who want to talk about the exploitation of workers, even though this country hasn't seen a sweat-shop or a company store in decades. We enforce mine safety in the courts now, just as we do equal pay for equal work.

The new battlefield is in the third world, and I have nothing but admiration for the activist women who are risking their lives in those countries to make a better world for their daughters.

[Freethinker]

Hasn't seen a sweat shop in decades?

Oh dear... then what were all the Kathie Lee tears over? And why was Frank running around handing out money to the sweat shop workers?

Right now, trafficking women is one of the biggest moneymakers with all kinds of folks involved, rumored to be at the highest levels of government. Of course, human smuggling is big, too... and guess what they're smuggled for? Slave labor.

Sheesh.

[Locutus]

You can't blame Bill O"reilly for what some nut case did.

Please try to focus on the issue.  Nobody blamed O'Reilly that I can see anywhere in this thread.  If they did, please point it out.

It has been decided over the years that music, movies and news that show or provoke violence are not accountable.

Again you mix apples with oranges.  I haven't seen any music, movie, video game, or news show advocating violence against any one person by name as Bill O'Reilly did.  He may not have stated it overtly, but he certainly implied it. 

There you go giving the criminal the excuse for what he did. He did it, he is guilty, period. No one held his hand and made him shoot the Dr. Give me a break.  REALLY!

I'm not giving the perpetrator any excuse for anything.  Again, if you read carefully, you'll see that. 

Now since this whole O'Reilly issue has been brought up, let's examine his remarks and see if he's really guilty of the charges of which he's been accused.

Here is one set of remarks from Billy O:

OK. So, I'm the fascist, I'm the bad guy, I'm the problem. Not Tiller. No, he -- no, no, no. He's a good guy. Now, Tiller's pumping all kinds of money into obviously the attorney general race. He wants the guy that's gonna let him off the hook to win. Those of you listening in Kansas, you ought to know that. You know, I don't -- I'm not gonna tell you who to vote for. You guys know these guys better than I do, but I tell you what, anything Tiller wants, I'm voting the other way. And if I could get my hands on Tiller -- well, you know. Can't be vigilantes. Can't do that. It's just a figure of speech.

Now Billy O has a nationwide audience of people who largely abdicate their intellect to his BS on a nightly basis.  Might he possibly be in some manner to blame for this? 

BTW, the last sentence is sarcasm.  It illustrates a common practice amongst those who routinely participate in this sort of venue.  That tactic may just have to be discussed on a different thread as it's not just a tactic of those who participate in online discussion forums.

[Sandy Eggo]

I haven't heard much lately in this country about the women's movement. With the ratification of Titles vii, ix and xx, we pretty much won. All that is left is to enforce the law in court, when it is necessary. I'm sure there are a few shrill grandstanders still hollering for the cameras, just as there are still some union bosses who want to talk about the exploitation of workers, even though this country hasn't seen a sweat-shop or a company store in decades. We enforce mine safety in the courts now, just as we do equal pay for equal work.

The new battlefield is in the third world, and I have nothing but admiration for the activist women who are risking their lives in those countries to make a better world for their daughters.

I don't disagree, but I believe that women still have some more to endure, before women are viewed by ability and accomplishments rather than gender.  IMO, you only have to look back a few months to a year to see a vivid picture that proves sexism is still alive and well. While I think any form of sexism is unacceptable, I personally find it especially disgusting when women are a party to the devaluation of their own gender.

For example, during the most recent presidential candidate race, it was extremely disturbing to me the number of women who were ready to disregard a candidate simply based on the fact that she may or may not have a monthly cycle. The women that I encountered who admittedly would be offended if someone assumed that they couldn't perform the duties of their responsibilities based on their monthly cycle, in all sincerity seemed to think that was a valid reason to make an important election decision. Nevermind, voting record, current issue stance or even perceived ability.

As long as there are people who are willing to limit the accomplishments of the movement by propagating stereotypes, dismissing the importance of the ongoing struggle or making sweeping value judgments of an entire gender and it's right to  equality, based on their own narrow view of the world, then women may never be truly equal. In other words, as long as there are people who confuse a woman's right to equality with "acting like a man", then it's obvious to me that the race is not won.

[?]

Hello all.  I don't get to stop by here too often these days, but I do have one question.  What makes people believe that any aborted fetus ends up in heaven?   Where is the evidence to support that belief?

[pariann]

Exactly the same place as all the other evidence that supports anyone going to heaven no matter what lifestage they are at when termination occurs. 

[mageepet]

http://www.kansas.com/topstories/story/845044.html

Abortion doctors death leaves gap in care for women seeking abortions in Kansas, along with statistics about no. of abortions done in Kansas.

[Exterminator]

Now Billy O has a nationwide audience of people who largely abdicate their intellect to his BS on a nightly basis.

I would submit that anyone who tunes into Bill O'Reilly on a nightly basis has no intellect to abdicate.

[Palehorse]

I would submit that anyone who tunes into Bill O'Reilly on a nightly basis has no intellect to abdicate.

Excellent point! 

[mcgonser]

Interesting. I recently read an op-ed piece that says precisely that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/03/AR2009060303238.html

"O'Reilly is being incredibly disingenuous when he claims that he bears no responsibility for others' actions in the killing of Dr. George Tiller on Sunday. When you tell an audience of millions over and over again that someone is an executioner, you cannot feign surprise when someone executes that person.

You cannot claim to hold no responsibility for what other people do when you call for people to besiege Tiller's clinic, as O'Reilly did in January 2008. And this was after Tiller had been shot in both arms and after his clinic had been bombed.

O'Reilly knew that people wanted Tiller dead, and he knew full well that many of those people were avid viewers of his show. Still, he fanned the flames. Every time I appeared on his show, I received vitriolic and hate-filled e-mails. And if I received those messages directly, I can only imagine what type of feedback O'Reilly receives. He knows that his words incite violence."

Does this back up my opinion LO

[LOsborne]

Oh dear... then what were all the Kathie Lee tears over? And why was Frank running around handing out money to the sweat shop workers?

That was Honduras, sugar. One of those third-world countries I mentioned.

Sheesh.

[LOsborne]

I don't disagree, but I believe that women still have some more to endure, before women are viewed by ability and accomplishments rather than gender.

There will always be those who devalue women, making jokes about dumb blondes, women drivers, nagging wives. It cuts both ways. When dealing with an idiot manager, I frequently mutter, "The real tragedy of testosterone poisoning is that it is so rarely fatal." That is also sexist. And there isn't a law in the world that can make me stop believing it, or to make the advocates of the dumb blonde stereotype stop believing that one. However, there is a law forbidding the firing of the dumb blonde, just because she is female. Attitudes can't be legislated. Fortunately, actions can.

As long as there are people who are willing to limit the accomplishments of the movement by propagating stereotypes, ... then women may never be truly equal. In other words, as long as there are people who confuse a woman's right to equality with "acting like a man", then it's obvious to me that the race is not won.

Again, we can't hope to legislate the way people think. And there will always be those True Believers who can't see past their own pet Single Issue to make a judgment based on qualification and experience. Maybe I'm whistling in the dark, but I think that type is more noisy than effective.

Maybe the race isn't won, but at least the track is level now. I crashed through the glass ceiling fifteen years ago. It's getting more common all the time. We just have to keep running.

[Freethinker]

That was Honduras, sugar. One of those third-world countries I mentioned.

Sheesh.

Honduras and Manhattan, sweetness.

Do your homework!