Nazi brown shirts again?

[Henry Hawk]

Yeah because being required to worship and serve are the very hallmarks of liberty and freedom; huh?  

Try as you might, you can't rewrite history no matter how ignorant of it you choose to remain.

it is NEVER ...requried....

and I have NOT rewrote any history....just showing quotes by the guys who has played key roles in the foudation of this country..........that's it

[Palehorse]

I agree it NEVER should be required...EVER....but on the same note, it should NEVER be denied it historical foundation...the significants that our forefathers spoke about...the importance of God and the Bible is to this country.

I believe you are confusing individual opinions and beliefs with official ones. Freedom of religion implies the freedom to worship what you want, when you want, and however you want.

And individual's fervor as it relates to a particular faith or sect should have no bearing what so ever upon the governance of the people, but rather should stand as his/her personal endorsement of said faith or sect.

For government to endorse any religion, doctrine, or sect is exclusionary in nature and a slap in the face to those who believe in something different. NOT what this country was founded upon.

While it might be accurate to state that the majority of religious people in this country believe in Christianity, it is not accurate to say that all do or should. Certainly that statement would be offensive in nature to those who are of Muslim, Buddhist, or other faiths.

While it may be accurate to state that this country was founded upon the acknowledgement that there is a "God", it is not accurate to state that this given "God" is Christian.

[Exterminator]

I'm in good company...no matter HOW ignorant that YOU choose to remain...

Woodrow Wilson said in a,  ...1911 pre-presidential campaign speech... America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness, which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scriptures. ...Part of the destiny of Americans lies in their daily perusal of this great book of revelations. That if they would see America free and pure they will make their own spirits free and pure by this baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Harry Truman "the man from Independence" was an avid reader. He read the Bible. He said,The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul.

Members of the Supreme Court have acknowledged the significance of our Christian heritage. Some historians recognize John Marshall the greatest Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. He established the authority of the Court as a strong independent third branch of government. He said in a letter to Jasper Adams on May 9, 1833

The American population is entirely Christian,  and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it.

and I can go on and on IF you like...

You can post all the quotes you'd like from people who are as wrong as you are on the subject but that still doesn't change the reality that the only mention of religion at all in our Constitution is exclusionary.  That some of the founding fathers considered themselves Christians in no way implies that it was the basis for our government.  Hoover is especially ignorant of this fact since he is apparently unaware that our system of law is based on the system of common law introduced to England by the Saxons.  How could the Saxons have introduced a system of common law based on Christianity when they were not Christians?

[Exterminator]

...the significants that our forefathers spoke about...

Many spoke directly against it.

...the importance of God and the Bible is to this country.

It's of absolutely no importance to me and I am part of this country.

[Henry Hawk]

I believe you are confusing individual opinions and beliefs with official ones. Freedom of religion implies the freedom to worship what you want, when you want, and however you want.

No argument here...

And individual's fervor as it relates to a particular faith or sect should have no bearing what so ever upon the governance of the people, but rather should stand as his/her personal endorsement of said faith or sect.

As long as it is within our Constitution, I agree.

For government to endorse any religion, doctrine, or sect is exclusionary in nature and a slap in the face to those who believe in something different. NOT what this country was founded upon.

As a government body, yeah, I somewhat agree...but, it is very, very evident, the value of God and the Bible, by many of those who has served our government...especially by those who was the signers....at least it was their opinion...

While it might be accurate to state that the majority of religious people in this country believe in Christianity, it is not accurate to say that all do or should. Certainly that statement would be offensive in nature to those who are of Muslim, Buddhist, or other faiths.

I it is offensive to those Americans who DO believe in Christ, that THEY cannot vote or fight for those principals that are taught by God and Christ...and THAT is happening today...

other than THAT...most Christians do NOT force their religion on anyone...I know there are radicals out there that spoil the cart........the vast majority are NOT that way....imo.

While it may be accurate to state that this country was founded upon the acknowledgement that there is a "God", it is not accurate to state that this given "God" is Christian.

maybe true, but there IS evidence that many DID....and almost ALL of them believed in or cherished the Holy Bible....

[Exterminator]

maybe true, but there IS evidence that many DID....and almost ALL of them believed in or cherished the Holy Bible....

Again, you are making the incorrect assumption that being affiliated with a religion means that they 'cherished the Holy Bible' and history absolutely does not support that position no matter how hard you try to delude yourself otherwise.

[Palehorse]

. . .
As a government body, yeah, I somewhat agree...but, it is very, very evident, the value of God and the Bible, by many of those who has served our government...especially by those who was the signers....at least it was their opinion...

The problem is that history and some individuals are confusing personal opinion and personal endorsement as governmental endorsement; clearly these are two very different things and the danger in doing so leads to the sense of entitlement we seem to be seeing within the Christian leadership.

The intent is clear, government does not endorse any particular faith. The personal faith of those who hold office is just that, personal, and in no way represents the views or perspectives of government.

Have current and past POTUS's utilized their position as a platform from which to exude their faith? Yes. But this doesn't make it right. However, the POTUS is a citizen just like each one of us and well within their individual right to profess their faith as an exercise of freedom of speech on a personal level.

I it is offensive to those Americans who DO believe in Christ, that THEY cannot vote or fight for those principals that are taught by God and Christ...and THAT is happening today...

other than THAT...most Christians do NOT force their religion on anyone...I know there are radicals out there that spoil the cart........the vast majority are NOT that way....imo.

No one is trying to say that any Christian cannot vote or fight for those changes in law that would help incorporate some aspects of their faith based system into law. Rather, when the proposed laws impose upon the established individual rights of the citizens in general, or are deemed to be against the intended nature of governance, then all must accept this and move forward. It is how the system works and how it was intended to work. 

maybe true, but there IS evidence that many DID....and almost ALL of them believed in or cherished the Holy Bible....

Again. This is personal opinion or perspective and certainly within their individual rights. What it is not is governance and law.

If an individual's right to worship woodpeckers helps him/her in the execution of their professional duties, and said worshiping does not impose itself upon others and negatively impact their ability to execute their duties, than bully for them.

If one of our leaders read Mein Kampf daily, and it inspired him or her to achieve great things in governmental leadership, would you feel the same about this book? I think not! Because it is a personal choice and a personal experience that brought about the end result. Not everyone reads the King James version of the Holy Bible. Nor do they have to.

What gets you through the day may not quite make it for me or the next person, and still be found to be restrictive to another. Government must do what is right and what makes sense for all.

[mcgonser]

I'm confused about something, what exactly are christians doing that is trying to make anyone worship God and his son Jesus? I don't know of any legislation or laws that require this. Where have we  tried to make anyone bow down or go down on their knees and worship God? Your confusion is that alot of good christian men have served our country as POTUS, senators, ambassadors etc and they haven't been bashful about their faith. I have never saw a one of them tell someone else to believe as they do. I will take a christian person anytime over a non believer because I know that they have the fundamentals down. Integrity, honesty, love of this great country and a belief in service of the USA. So how exactly are we stepping on your rights??? Is it by these discussions on forums. If you think that then don't read them. You have been the one that no matter what the topic of the thread you put down Christians, God and anything to do with this. Shame on You! You don't take someone standing up for what they believe in do you? I suggest you get a thicker skin and a more tolerable heart. JMO

[Palehorse]

I'm confused about something, what exactly are christians doing that is trying to make anyone worship God and his son Jesus? I don't know of any legislation or laws that require this. Where have we  tried to make anyone bow down or go down on their knees and worship God? Your confusion is that alot of good christian men have served our country as POTUS, senators, ambassadors etc and they haven't been bashful about their faith. I have never saw a one of them tell someone else to believe as they do. I will take a christian person anytime over a non believer because I know that they have the fundamentals down. Integrity, honesty, love of this great country and a belief in service of the USA. So how exactly are we stepping on your rights??? Is it by these discussions on forums. If you think that then don't read them. You have been the one that no matter what the topic of the thread you put down Christians, God and anything to do with this. Shame on You! You don't take someone standing up for what they believe in do you? I suggest you get a thicker skin and a more tolerable heart. JMO

To whom are you addressing this posting?

[Palehorse]

I'm confused about something, what exactly are christians doing that is trying to make anyone worship God and his son Jesus? I don't know of any legislation or laws that require this. Where have we  tried to make anyone bow down or go down on their knees and worship God? Your confusion is that alot of good christian men have served our country as POTUS, senators, ambassadors etc and they haven't been bashful about their faith. I have never saw a one of them tell someone else to believe as they do. I will take a christian person anytime over a non believer because I know that they have the fundamentals down. Integrity, honesty, love of this great country and a belief in service of the USA. So how exactly are we stepping on your rights??? Is it by these discussions on forums. If you think that then don't read them. You have been the one that no matter what the topic of the thread you put down Christians, God and anything to do with this. Shame on You! You don't take someone standing up for what they believe in do you? I suggest you get a thicker skin and a more tolerable heart. JMO

Well in any case. . .

Most often it is the fact that Christians try to invoke some sort of entitlement as "the" official religion of the government/nation as lever with which to enforce their opposition toward the elimination of the IGWT statement upon our currency, public buildings, etc.

It is a patently false claim and these conversations are almost always accompanied by quotes of historic governmental leadership espousing their personal faith, as examples in support of this claim. Claims that must be rebutted to correct the false sense of entitlement being assumed by others.

As for myself, I typically bring religion up because invariably it is the root driver behind the subject at hand. In this instance it wasn't me bringing it up but others, and so I picked up the ball and ran when it was my turn.

Personally, I find your method of selection invalid in basis due to the fact it utilizes belief in a faith based upon a tool created by humankind as its foundational element, despite the absence of empirical proof to support its claims.

The method alone would support false thinking and deception based choices; and quite frankly it smacks of stereo typing.

Shame on me? Isn't that a prime example of societal pressure attempting to be utilized as a means with which to force your belief system upon me? I think so. Otherwise, I've posted nothing to be ashamed of, for I have provided my own perspectives upon the subject at hand. Just because it doesn't align with your own personal belief system does not automatically relegate it to the status of shameful.

[Henry Hawk]

The problem is that history and some individuals are confusing personal opinion and personal endorsement as governmental endorsement; clearly these are two very different things and the danger in doing so leads to the sense of entitlement we seem to be seeing within the Christian leadership.

The intent is clear, government does not endorse any particular faith. The personal faith of those who hold office is just that, personal, and in no way represents the views or perspectives of government.

Have current and past POTUS's utilized their position as a platform from which to exude their faith? Yes. But this doesn't make it right. However, the POTUS is a citizen just like each one of us and well within their individual right to profess their faith as an exercise of freedom of speech on a personal level.

No one is trying to say that any Christian cannot vote or fight for those changes in law that would help incorporate some aspects of their faith based system into law. Rather, when the proposed laws impose upon the established individual rights of the citizens in general, or are deemed to be against the intended nature of governance, then all must accept this and move forward. It is how the system works and how it was intended to work. 


Again. This is personal opinion or perspective and certainly within their individual rights. What it is not is governance and law.

If an individual's right to worship woodpeckers helps him/her in the execution of their professional duties, and said worshiping does not impose itself upon others and negatively impact their ability to execute their duties, than bully for them.

If one of our leaders read Mein Kampf daily, and it inspired him or her to achieve great things in governmental leadership, would you feel the same about this book? I think not! Because it is a personal choice and a personal experience that brought about the end result. Not everyone reads the King James version of the Holy Bible. Nor do they have to.

What gets you through the day may not quite make it for me or the next person, and still be found to be restrictive to another. Government must do what is right and what makes sense for all.

All I am saying is........our forefathers (the vast majority) were Godly men...period.

and that is pretty much what sets of certain people on here.......I have never intended to say we are a Christian Nation...but we ARE a Nation, founded by Christian (or bibical values at the least) values...and there IS a difference...

I agree, that we ALL have the right to worship anything and anyone....THAT is a FACT that I have NEVER, EVER disputed....we are a FREE country in that regards....

I have heard on here that IF a man/woman has a Christian motive, that he/she should NOT be involved in Politics...that religion/politics don't mix...............and I say, I has...ie our forefathers....they set our rules and guidelines, with deeply seated convictions on their Godly upbringings......THAT was simply the way of life for MOST of our early Americans.

[Henry Hawk]

Again, you are making the incorrect assumption that being affiliated with a religion means that they 'cherished the Holy Bible' and history absolutely does not support that position no matter how hard you try to delude yourself otherwise.

the vast majority of them DID...period. those are facts........55 signers were members of various Christian denominations...maybe I cannot prove they ALL cherished the Bible, but there are quotes from many, that strongly insinuate this.

[mcgonser]

I was directing my post to Ex: I too am just stating my opinion on this subject. The shame on you is that Ex cannot talk about anything without bashing christians. It stands to reason that anyone would get a little tired of it. We might not agree on this subject, but I do acknowledge your right to yours. I just don't think its right that I get put down for mine because it doesn't agree with theirs.

[dan foster]

the vast majority of them DID...period. those are facts........55 signers were members of various Christian denominations...maybe I cannot prove they ALL cherished the Bible, but there are quotes from many, that strongly insinuate this.

There were christians in the founders midst.  However, they were voted down in their request to include anything about jesus or the god of abraham.  Most of the PRINCIPAL founders were deist, and you know that.  Stop trying to cover that up with your hand full of non founder's quotes.  I can give you many, many more that support the idea that they didn't want religion in the gov't and most rejected your deities.  The fact that the Massachusetts Bay Colony was a total failure speaks volumes about what you think is a sign in state constitutions.  They wanted a christian state.  It failed.

[dan foster]

just stating facts....

and it is the SAME superstition that our Forefathers cherished....they even cherished it enough that it WAS mentioned in ALL of our STATE constitutions....every one of them....

I honestly have respect for NOT pushing it into our National Constitution...it has to be realized before it is worth anything.....for MOST Americans it IS realized, the significance of having a realtionship with God..and the values placed upon liberty and freedom based upon His Divine presence....

It is absolutely amazing that the god of slavery could in any way be held up as the god of liberty and freedom.  Please provide a biblical quote that would support the idea.  I am not talking about the freeing of the jews from egypt.  That doesn't count.  They were "his" chosen ones.  No, please provide a quote that supports liberty and freedom as in America.  You can't.  You know why, too.  The bible supports the idea of slavery, even through jesus.