To follow up from another post, I decided to start a new thread....I spent some time on this before on another forum a few years ago....
I believe we ALL have free will and God allows us to choose what type of vessel we want to be.... God takes no pleasure in the death of the unrighteous.
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? Ezek 18:23
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! Ezek 18:32
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Our God is loving...but He is also Holy, Righteous, and Just...He will not tolerate sin and rebellion...some may think that's unfair.....God is who He is and people wishing things were different will not change the reality of His nature...fortunately for us, He is a God who loves His creation.
He provided a way to remove our sin and rebellion...He did this without in any way shape or form...removing our free will....He did this through his son Jesus Christ...we can go on rebelling if we wish......we have free will....He will tolerate that rebellion with patience...for a time....we need to understand that those who persist will die as a consequence of their rebellion.
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:23
This may not seem very loving, but consider...He also was willing to put His own son to death so that all might live....only if they want to though.
I will discuss, but not argue this.......if anybody wants to get nasty or disrespectfull, I won't respond..........I WILL do my best to give you my opinion, based on my reading and study of the Bible...which is nothing to brag about....but, I am TRYING to increase my wisdom in this area....I am not good at resonding quickly......and I WANT to be very careful with my responses pertaining to this.............on politics..ehh...I say things that don't always come out right....no big deal......but, after praying about this....it is something I will do, only out of respect and honor of God, who, I personaly am gratefull for His Grace and Love that He has provided for me on a personal level....
Yep, folks just trying to rule the world with dire consequences of the after-life. Jesus didn't die for our sins. Jesus dies because he was a whiny liberal, and thank God the good, God-fearing, conservative Romans who rightfully believed in the death penalty. Happy Easter everyone!!! :biggrin: :icon_twisted:
Go ahead and roll your eyes hawk.
Quote from: IYT on March 11, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
Go ahead and roll your eyes hawk.
okay............... :rolleyes: ;) ;D
This is one Ive never been able to wrap my head around...
if God is a loving God, why did the forgiveness of our prayers come at the cost of his son? Why not just grant that forgiveness to those who honor him? Why the "middle man"?
Quote from: Gryphon on March 11, 2008, 05:32:34 PM
This is one Ive never been able to wrap my head around...
if God is a loving God, why did the forgiveness of our prayers come at the cost of his son? Why not just grant that forgiveness to those who honor him? Why the "middle man"?
Okay, here is my take on this............God SO loved the world He gave His one and only Son....I think, that God wants to have a real and loving relationship with everyone...........but, He wants a sincere relationship..........He set rules and regulations to live by........and people failed it miserably............so He decided to show His sacrifice of how much He loves us.....all He wants is, for us, by our own free will...to Honor His sacrifice, through the blood of His one and only Son Jesus.....
I'm sure your parents have told you when you was a kid that they don't like punishing you...as a parent, I HATE that I sometimes have to punish my kids........In the same way, the God says in (Ezekiel 33:11)
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'He wants nothing more, than man to admit their wrongdoings....and accept that He gave us one simple task to honor...and that's all.........and those who do, can have an eternal life in paradise with Him....
If God did send his son to die for our sins, it wasn't my sins. It was the sins of those awful, homosexual Greeks. Blame the Greeks, not the Romans.
Sorry to spam your thread with my silliness, so I'll ask a legit question. If Jesus was the son of God, then would Jesus not be God? What's the difference between the son of God and God? I mean usually when you talk of someone having a son, there is a penis involved somehow. Maybe Jesus was not the son of God, but just God manifested?
speaking of penises, if God created us in his own image, what did he need a penis for? ;D
Quote from: IYT on March 12, 2008, 10:12:19 AM
If God did send his son to die for our sins, it wasn't my sins. It was the sins of those awful, homosexual Greeks. Blame the Greeks, not the Romans.
Sorry to spam your thread with my silliness, so I'll ask a legit question. If Jesus was the son of God, then would Jesus not be God? What's the difference between the son of God and God? I mean usually when you talk of someone having a son, there is a penis involved somehow. Maybe Jesus was not the son of God, but just God manifested?
Well the Bible tells us He was born, by a regular woman, was a real baby, grew up as a real human....BUT, it WAS God, himself that lived through His Son....it was the only way, He could set himself apart from being God to being as a man.....heck if He can create the Universe, I have no problem that He can do this..........for me, I realize He IS GOD......the whole trinity thing CAN be quite confusing, but then there are times it DOES makes some sense...
IYT, your a goofball...and I love it.. ;D......your comments sometimes are way out,but yet not tooo far either......but the do make me laugh.... ;D
Quote from: Gryphon on March 12, 2008, 10:17:52 AM
speaking of penises, if God created us in his own image, what did he need a penis for? ;D
Now there is a real stumper.. :confused:..that I'm pretty sure is NOT covered in the BIBLE....at least specificaly... ;D
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 12, 2008, 10:19:25 AM
heck if He can create the Universe, I have no problem that He can do this..........for me, I realize He IS GOD......the whole trinity thing CAN be quite confusing, but then there are times it DOES makes some sense...
He created the universe so he could hole up in some 99 year old, virgin, vagina. :biggrin:
And the whole trinity thing is confusing, but what isn't?
did god start out as god, or did he have to become god? seems like a pretty good gig, is all. i'd like to look into an intern program.
I wonder if aliens can talk to God yet. I think it's God that has kept the aliens from obliterating our planet.
seems like aliens mostly want the insides of cows. and a little anal probing now and again. evidently god's not interested in stopping them from that!
Well we kill cows and probe ourselves voluntarily. How's that Kids in the Hall skit go?
Playing the character of an alien-Dave Foley
"We've been traveling millions of light years for millions of years anal probing earthlings and all we've found out is one out of ten enjoy it."-not exact quote, but I thought it was funny.
It is basically your will that is free; you are free to think what you want, and free to make every decision on your own. God provides you with the ability to choose for yourself, (with the added implicit warning that you would do well to choose wisely). They can be bad choices or good choices, but they are your choices.
Free will is not a promise that all is possible and all desires will be provided for.
There is nothing that mankind has done, as far as I'm concerned, to affect or suppress my free will. That I, and I alone, am the master of. I make all my own choices.
This reminds me of a conversation at church. Does mankind take away our free will through establishing laws?
Quote from: Doc on March 12, 2008, 04:49:26 PM
This reminds me of a conversation at church. Does mankind take away our free will through establishing laws?
not if your willing to "pay" for being "free"...
Doc, it's good having you around....we have missed ya... :)
Thank you. I like stopping in here when I get a free minute. It helps clear my head. ;)
Free Will, as x-tian doctrine, is a sham and a fraud.
Humanity's options provided by god (according to x-tianity):
1. Accept 'god, god's plan, and god's word' completely by faith
or
2. Burn in Hell
Or in plain language, play god's game with god's rules or else.
Free will doesn't exist unless the free choice to completely opt out of god's game exists.
Otherwise, humanity isn't free in any sense of the word, they are god's slaves...or automatons for his amusement.
Quote from: Y on March 17, 2008, 09:07:42 PM
Free Will, as x-tian doctrine, is a sham and a fraud.
Humanity's options provided by god (according to x-tianity):
1. Accept 'god, god's plan, and god's word' completely by faith
or
2. Burn in Hell
Or in plain language, play god's game with god's rules or else.
Free will doesn't exist unless the free choice to completely opt out of god's game exists.
Otherwise, humanity isn't free in any sense of the word, they are god's slaves...or automatons for his amusement.
hey, it is ALL in the Book...........you have free will...to not choose or TOO chose in believing..........nobody is putting a gun to your head...
It don't get ANY free-er than the way GOD layed out His plan....call it a game if it makes ya feel better....
Jest because you can't wrap you overloaded brain around something as simple as God's Word....you fight, cuss and scream that OTHERS are idiots because they refuse to make anything more of this and it is.............
Y, I know this logic irritates you, and I'm really NOT trying to irritate you.......but, I don't need science to explain our purpose here........they have their hands full trying to figure it out for themselves...
"because I say so" isn't even a good enough reason for my 10 year old to do stuff she LIKES doing.
Quote from: bevis on March 18, 2008, 01:31:37 PM
"because I say so" isn't even a good enough reason for my 10 year old to do stuff she LIKES doing.
God created the Universe.......He set the rules...it's His way...He is gracious enough to give us ALL a way to come to His terms..and it's not really very difficult either...........we just want to do things OUR way....not His :yes:
but you'd think he'd have a better understanding of human nature.
and that seems a little selfish, don't you think?
Quote from: bevis on March 18, 2008, 02:20:35 PM
but you'd think he'd have a better understanding of human nature.
and that seems a little selfish, don't you think?
He IS a jealous God...and we have the same emotions as He does...so, maybe it is.. :confused:. But, who are WE to question, the very life-giver....I trust, in God...and have faith that He knows best for all of us........but, it is His rules.........and I can live with that... :yes:
you sound like an abused child defending his parent
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 18, 2008, 02:55:24 PM
He IS a jealous God...and we have the same emotions as He does...so, maybe it is.. :confused:. But, who are WE to question, the very life-giver....I trust, in God...and have faith that He knows best for all of us........but, it is His rules.........and I can live with that... :yes:
Henry, who owns you?
If you think some invisible, supernatural, uber-human does, then I sincerely doubt you'll ever understand whence I, or those like me, am coming from - nor understand the evil that has come into the world through that line of thinking.
If, as I do, you think that one owns themself, then you should begin to understand how that is the path to enlightenment and the source of all rights.
Quote from: Y on April 17, 2008, 01:29:57 AM
Henry, who owns you?
God does.................and I have NO remorse about that................as a mater of fact, I am pleased by it.
Beleive it or not, I DO..somewhat follow your and those of your ilk........the logic that you have......but, I 'chose' to follow my instincts, my heart and my soul....it satisfies me, with a sence of confidence, that I cannot put words too.... a very wise man once said.........."it is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man...."
Just for an example, Henry.
Thinking someone else can own you (even an invisible, supernatural, uber-human) leads you to believe that you have the right to exert authority and control over another person in such matters as abortion where, in fact, your inherent rights are not even involved.
And that's just a simple and current one.
That sort of 'ownership' thinking has been the basis for all sorts of deviltry perpetrated against others such as the Divine Right of Kings, serfdom, slavery, and jailing people for what they put in their own bodies or deciding to to end their own life.
Quote from: Y on May 02, 2008, 02:20:56 AM
Just for an example, Henry.
Thinking someone else can own you (even an invisible, supernatural, uber-human) leads you to believe that you have the right to exert authority and control over another person in such matters as abortion where, in fact, your inherent rights are not even involved.
And that's just a simple and current one.
That sort of 'ownership' thinking has been the basis for all sorts of deviltry perpetrated against others such as the Divine Right of Kings, serfdom, slavery, and jailing people for what they put in their own bodies or deciding to to end their own life.
it is just not religion that makes people react to other peoples actions in fearful ways...........and I still stand firm...that the people who understand Christianity the way Jesus meant it to be.........ARE much better for this world...if everyone lived according to Jesus' teachings, there would be no problems in this world............that is where Heaven comes to play.
Thought I might jump in on this interesting free-will subject, if you don't mind.
Henry and Doc, from a believer to believers-does man choose God?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 02, 2008, 08:47:01 AM
it is just not religion that makes people react to other peoples actions in fearful ways...........and I still stand firm...that the people who understand Christianity the way Jesus meant it to be.........ARE much better for this world...if everyone lived according to Jesus' teachings, there would be no problems in this world............that is where Heaven comes to play.
"The way 'jesus' meant it to be"?
Who decides that, Henry? You? Then it's no more than your idiosyncratic and subjective opinion.
Your church? Your religious sect? Their writers and theologians? Then you selectively and subjectively chose to accept what they determine to be true over other churches, sects, their writers and theologians, and other religions.
The OT or NT 'writers'? Hardly a perfect factual record.
Jesus? Not only is his existence unsubstantiated by the historical record, but had he existed he is dead and left no existent writings.
I don't have a problem with how you chose, but don't demand 1) your choice be universal and 2) that others should live accordingly.
Quote from: Y on May 22, 2008, 06:03:37 PM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 02, 2008, 08:47:01 AM
it is just not religion that makes people react to other peoples actions in fearful ways...........and I still stand firm...that the people who understand Christianity the way Jesus meant it to be.........ARE much better for this world...if everyone lived according to Jesus' teachings, there would be no problems in this world............that is where Heaven comes to play.
"The way 'jesus' meant it to be"?
Who decides that, Henry? You? Then it's no more than your idiosyncratic and subjective opinion.
Your church? Your religious sect? Their writers and theologians? Then you selectively and subjectively chose to accept what they determine to be true over other churches, sects, their writers and theologians, and other religions.
The OT or NT 'writers'? Hardly a perfect factual record.
Jesus? Not only is his existence unsubstantiated by the historical record, but had he existed he is dead and left no existent writings.
I don't have a problem with how you chose, but don't demand 1) your choice be universal and 2) that others should live accordingly.
I have never 'demanded" ..I simply pointed out my opinion.........if everyone would live by the fruits of the spirit or loved their neighbor like they loved themselves and loved God, with all thier heart, mind, and soul.............it would be a pretty smooth world....that's all.
But you do 'demand', Henry. I see you in many ways expecting this country to be run according to, and others to be bound by, your religious sensibilities, and supporting those who continually promote that sort of agenda.
Quote from: Y on June 09, 2008, 03:58:23 PM
But you do 'demand', Henry. I see you in many ways expecting this country to be run according to, and others to be bound by, your religious sensibilities, and supporting those who continually promote that sort of agenda.
I'm only one person with one vote............I cannot demand anything............I do have my beliefs and will vote in a way that I think will best support our country and it's integrity.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on June 09, 2008, 04:39:25 PM
I'm only one person with one vote............I cannot demand anything............I do have my beliefs and will vote in a way that I think will best support our country and it's integrity.
This is the most true thing I have ever heard. "I am only one person."
Like you Henry, I get so tired of being blamed for everything any one person said or did that was not Godly, but said that it was.
I want to be judged by others by the way I live, not by the way some one else who claims to be a Christian says or does.
I also get so tired of some people expecting me to have all the answers for everything that God has said or done. I will be the first to say that while I may not know the answer that I believe in what God says for me to do, to the best of my knowledge. Because I can not answer every question out there does not make me less a Christian.. and it does not make God wrong.