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Gods....Free Will....

Started by Henry Hawk, March 11, 2008, 04:48:17 PM

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Henry Hawk

#15
March 12, 2008, 04:54:20 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 12, 2008, 04:49:26 PM
This reminds me of a conversation at church. Does mankind take away our free will through establishing laws?

not if your willing to "pay" for being "free"...

Doc, it's good having you around....we have missed ya... :)

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

Doc

#16
March 12, 2008, 05:00:38 PM
Thank you. I like stopping in here when I get a free minute. It helps clear my head. ;)

Y

#17
March 17, 2008, 09:07:42 PM
Free Will, as x-tian doctrine, is a sham and a fraud.

Humanity's options provided by god (according to x-tianity):

1. Accept 'god, god's plan, and god's word' completely by faith

or

2. Burn in Hell

Or in plain language, play god's game with god's rules or else.

Free will doesn't exist unless the free choice to completely opt out of god's game exists.

Otherwise, humanity isn't free in any sense of the word, they are god's slaves...or automatons for his amusement.

©  Whamma-Jamma - all rights reserved

Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.  ;)

"You've probably noticed that opinion pollsters go out of their way to include as many morons as possible in surveys ... I think it's dangerous to inform morons about what their fellow morons are thinking. It only reinforces their opinions. And the one thing worse than a moron with an opinion is lots of them." -- Scott Adams

In other words: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.  ;)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

"Hitler is gone, but if the majority of our fellow citizens are more susceptible to the slogans of fear and race hatred than to those of peaceful accommodation and mutual respect among human beings, our political liberties remain at the mercy of any eloquent and unscrupulous demagogue." -- S. I. Hayakawa

Henry Hawk

#18
March 18, 2008, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: Y on March 17, 2008, 09:07:42 PM
Free Will, as x-tian doctrine, is a sham and a fraud.

Humanity's options provided by god (according to x-tianity):

1. Accept 'god, god's plan, and god's word' completely by faith

or

2. Burn in Hell

Or in plain language, play god's game with god's rules or else.

Free will doesn't exist unless the free choice to completely opt out of god's game exists.

Otherwise, humanity isn't free in any sense of the word, they are god's slaves...or automatons for his amusement.



hey, it is ALL in the Book...........you have free will...to not choose or TOO chose in believing..........nobody is putting a gun to your head...

It don't get ANY free-er than the way GOD layed out His plan....call it a game if it makes ya feel better....

Jest because you can't wrap you overloaded brain around something as simple as God's Word....you fight, cuss and scream that OTHERS are idiots because they refuse to make anything more of this and it is.............

Y, I know this logic irritates you, and I'm really NOT trying to irritate you.......but, I don't need science to explain our purpose here........they have their hands full trying to figure it out for themselves...
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

bevis

#19
March 18, 2008, 01:31:37 PM
"because I say so"  isn't even a good enough reason for my 10 year old to do stuff she LIKES doing.

Henry Hawk

#20
March 18, 2008, 01:40:44 PM
Quote from: bevis on March 18, 2008, 01:31:37 PM
"because I say so"  isn't even a good enough reason for my 10 year old to do stuff she LIKES doing.

God created the Universe.......He set the rules...it's His way...He is gracious enough to give us ALL a way to come to His terms..and it's not really very difficult either...........we just want to do things OUR way....not His   :yes:
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

bevis

#21
March 18, 2008, 02:20:35 PM
but you'd think he'd have a better understanding of human nature. 

and that seems a little selfish, don't you think?

Henry Hawk

#22
March 18, 2008, 02:55:24 PM
Quote from: bevis on March 18, 2008, 02:20:35 PM
but you'd think he'd have a better understanding of human nature. 

and that seems a little selfish, don't you think?

He IS a jealous God...and we have the same emotions as He does...so, maybe it is.. :confused:. But, who are WE to question, the very life-giver....I trust, in God...and have faith that He knows best for all of us........but, it is His rules.........and I can live with that... :yes:
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

bevis

#23
March 18, 2008, 05:35:32 PM
you sound like an abused child defending his parent

Y

#24
April 17, 2008, 01:29:57 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 18, 2008, 02:55:24 PM
He IS a jealous God...and we have the same emotions as He does...so, maybe it is.. :confused:. But, who are WE to question, the very life-giver....I trust, in God...and have faith that He knows best for all of us........but, it is His rules.........and I can live with that... :yes:

Henry, who owns you? 

If you think some invisible, supernatural, uber-human does, then I sincerely doubt you'll ever understand whence I, or those like me, am coming from - nor understand the evil that has come into the world through that line of thinking.

If, as I do, you think that one owns themself, then you should begin to understand how that is the path to enlightenment and the source of all rights.
©  Whamma-Jamma - all rights reserved

Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.  ;)

"You've probably noticed that opinion pollsters go out of their way to include as many morons as possible in surveys ... I think it's dangerous to inform morons about what their fellow morons are thinking. It only reinforces their opinions. And the one thing worse than a moron with an opinion is lots of them." -- Scott Adams

In other words: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.  ;)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

"Hitler is gone, but if the majority of our fellow citizens are more susceptible to the slogans of fear and race hatred than to those of peaceful accommodation and mutual respect among human beings, our political liberties remain at the mercy of any eloquent and unscrupulous demagogue." -- S. I. Hayakawa

Henry Hawk

#25
April 17, 2008, 09:22:47 AM
Quote from: Y on April 17, 2008, 01:29:57 AM
Henry, who owns you? 


God does.................and I have NO remorse about that................as a mater of fact, I am pleased by it.


Beleive it or not, I DO..somewhat follow your and those of your ilk........the logic that you have......but, I 'chose' to follow my instincts, my heart and my soul....it satisfies me, with a sence of confidence, that I cannot put words too.... a very wise man once said.........."it is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man...."
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

Y

#26
May 02, 2008, 02:20:56 AM
Just for an example, Henry. 

Thinking someone else can own you (even an invisible, supernatural, uber-human) leads you to believe that you have the right to exert authority and control over another person in such matters as abortion where, in fact, your inherent rights are not even involved.

And that's just a simple and current one. 

That sort of 'ownership' thinking has been the basis for all sorts of deviltry perpetrated against others such as the Divine Right of Kings, serfdom, slavery, and jailing people for what they put in their own bodies or deciding to to end their own life.

©  Whamma-Jamma - all rights reserved

Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.  ;)

"You've probably noticed that opinion pollsters go out of their way to include as many morons as possible in surveys ... I think it's dangerous to inform morons about what their fellow morons are thinking. It only reinforces their opinions. And the one thing worse than a moron with an opinion is lots of them." -- Scott Adams

In other words: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.  ;)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

"Hitler is gone, but if the majority of our fellow citizens are more susceptible to the slogans of fear and race hatred than to those of peaceful accommodation and mutual respect among human beings, our political liberties remain at the mercy of any eloquent and unscrupulous demagogue." -- S. I. Hayakawa

Henry Hawk

#27
May 02, 2008, 08:47:01 AM
Quote from: Y on May 02, 2008, 02:20:56 AM
Just for an example, Henry. 

Thinking someone else can own you (even an invisible, supernatural, uber-human) leads you to believe that you have the right to exert authority and control over another person in such matters as abortion where, in fact, your inherent rights are not even involved.

And that's just a simple and current one. 

That sort of 'ownership' thinking has been the basis for all sorts of deviltry perpetrated against others such as the Divine Right of Kings, serfdom, slavery, and jailing people for what they put in their own bodies or deciding to to end their own life.



it is just not religion that makes people react to other peoples actions in fearful ways...........and I still stand firm...that the people who understand Christianity the way Jesus meant it to be.........ARE much better for this world...if everyone lived according to Jesus' teachings, there would be no problems in this world............that is where Heaven comes to play.
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

Horseman

#28
May 09, 2008, 10:06:07 AM
Thought I might jump in on this interesting free-will subject, if you don't mind.

Henry and Doc, from a believer to believers-does man choose God?

Y

#29
May 22, 2008, 06:03:37 PM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on May 02, 2008, 08:47:01 AM
it is just not religion that makes people react to other peoples actions in fearful ways...........and I still stand firm...that the people who understand Christianity the way Jesus meant it to be.........ARE much better for this world...if everyone lived according to Jesus' teachings, there would be no problems in this world............that is where Heaven comes to play.

"The way 'jesus' meant it to be"? 

Who decides that, Henry?  You?  Then it's no more than your idiosyncratic and subjective opinion. 

Your church?  Your religious sect?  Their writers and theologians?  Then you selectively and subjectively chose to accept what they determine to be true over other churches, sects, their writers and theologians, and other religions.

The OT or NT 'writers'?  Hardly a perfect factual record.

Jesus?  Not only is his existence unsubstantiated by the historical record, but had he existed he is dead and left no existent writings.


I don't have a problem with how you chose, but don't demand 1) your choice be universal and 2) that others should live accordingly.
©  Whamma-Jamma - all rights reserved

Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.  ;)

"You've probably noticed that opinion pollsters go out of their way to include as many morons as possible in surveys ... I think it's dangerous to inform morons about what their fellow morons are thinking. It only reinforces their opinions. And the one thing worse than a moron with an opinion is lots of them." -- Scott Adams

In other words: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.  ;)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

"Hitler is gone, but if the majority of our fellow citizens are more susceptible to the slogans of fear and race hatred than to those of peaceful accommodation and mutual respect among human beings, our political liberties remain at the mercy of any eloquent and unscrupulous demagogue." -- S. I. Hayakawa
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