http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2007/12/09/why_atheists_are_so_angry (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2007/12/09/why_atheists_are_so_angry)
One reason I think is that they are God-haters. Atheists often like to portray themselves as "unbelievers" but this is not strictly accurate. If they were mere unbelievers they would simply live their lives as if God did not exist. I don't believe in unicorns, but then I haven't written any books called The End of Unicorns, Unicorns are Not Great, or The Unicorn Delusion. Clearly the atheists go beyond disbelief; they are on the warpath against God. And you can hear their bitterness not only in their book titles but also in their mean-spirited invective.
Here is a second reason the atheists sound so angry. They are not used to having their sophistries exposed. For the past three years the new atheists have had a virtually free ride. Dawkins and Hitchens make outrageous claims ("religion poisons everything") and media pundits like Lou Dobbs and Tim Russert fawn all over them. But in the past few months I've been meeting the leading atheist spokesmen in open debate, and challenging them on the basis of the same reason and science and evidence that they say vindicates their claims.
I'm not angry. :confused:
but then, you don't hear anyone shouting "if you don't believe in unicorns, you aren't fit for public office" either. :wink:
Quote from: awol on December 10, 2007, 10:09:43 AM
but then, you don't hear anyone shouting "if you don't believe in unicorns, you aren't fit for public office" either. :wink:
and your point IS?... :confused:
nobody is saying likewise about Christians?.....if so, tell me...
You got to think of things on the whole in these matters. We can't ignore spiritual warfare and think this is just a human being thing. As Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit, its only logical the non-believers are guided by the enemy. The enemy has limited resources though as there are a finite amount of the fallen, so I would imagine they use those that are easily duped or receptive and or willing to their influences. Which is probably why everyone that isn't a non believer isn't a foam at the mouth atheistic Christian hating troll.
Also, it is the very nature of the enemy to engage in conflict with the believer. Constantly he is trying to lure us out into some kind of conflict with him. Once we engage in conflict on our own it drags us out of the presence of the Lord and into a place we can get beat on. It is best to remain in the presence of the Lord where the enemy can't touch us and let the enemy set outside that camp and whine and howl his best to taunt us out.
See the truth of things in spirit, see beyond the people that are speaking whatever and see the true hand that is in play.
I don't think that Atheists are guided by something they don't believe in, ie "the enemy". Just a thought.
Quote from: PIYA on December 10, 2007, 11:50:46 AM
I don't think that Atheists are guided by something they don't believe in, ie "the enemy". Just a thought.
I think that they very well COULD be, but not necessarly always the case...
Quote from: PIYA on December 10, 2007, 11:50:46 AM
I don't think that Atheists are guided by something they don't believe in, ie "the enemy". Just a thought.
Pardon me, but I find that howling funny. It brings to mind a bunch of people on sail boats screaming "there is no such thing as wind, it's invisible, you can't prove it's there", yet they are being blown all over the ocean by an angry wind.
"There's no Forrest out here!!!...there is bunch of trees in the way, there couldn't be one".
You know as humans we are pangalactically arrogant, we thought not that long ago, the world was flat and if someone was sick, you drain the "bad blood" out of them. We are still so clueless about the universe around us, we struggle with the common cold and yet get huffy about even the possibility of a supreme being. I swear we are God's retarded child race in the universe. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a "Special Ed" sign hanging on our solar system.
I can feel the wind blowing across my skin. It is scientificaly proven phemomena. Haven't seen a real unicorn, nor has anyone else that I know of, so until there is a verifiable sighting, I'll have to say they don't exist.
No as far as this god thing goes, I have found no evidence. No reports of afterlife from dead relatives, no verifiable miracles, etc. All in all, no proof, just a bunch of people willing to believe in a collection of mythological tales from many years ago, and who try to adapt current happenings to the vague prophecies within that book. Does that make me angry? Not really, but it does make me sad that folks are willing to believe such drivel and accept it for fact. Especially since there is proof that the entire christian religion is based on numerous previous religions, and adapted to fit.
So have a happy winter solstice! I know I will :biggrin:
I think it's the atheists who are the adults in the room. The only angry people I see are the Jesus-Freaks whining about this mythical "War on Christmas" and how they are being constantly repressed, despite the current administration's efforts to bend over forward to give them everything they want to satisfy "the base".
Quote from: C91 on December 10, 2007, 06:23:17 PM
I think it's the atheists who are the adults in the room. The only angry people I see are the Jesus-Freaks whining about this mythical "War on Christmas" and how they are being constantly repressed, despite the current administration's efforts to bend over forward to give them everything they want to satisfy "the base".
Wow, Jesus Freaks, lol...incrimination at it's finest.
Quote from: C91 on December 10, 2007, 06:23:17 PM
The only angry people I see are the Jesus-Freaks whining about this mythical "War on Christmas" and how they are being constantly repressed,
sounds a little angry to me... :yes:
Not in the least. Accurate, maybe, but not angry.
There's a difference between Christians and Jesus-Freaks.
This is why agnostic is the way to go, the one "right way" of "I don't know." Only when you realize your ignorance can you truly ascend higher. It's like drug addicts having to realize their problem before they can be helped.
BTW-how do you all feel about atheists celebrating CHRISTmas?
Quote from: IYT on December 12, 2007, 11:02:43 AM
BTW-how do you all feel about atheists celebrating CHRISTmas?
Don't care who or what anybody celebrates.....Christmas has become way too secular anymore for most folks...including me. But, as a family, we still recongnize the Birth of Christ, and simply use it as a time to be grateful to God. We still have fun with the Santa Clause and everything. But, it is nice, that at least for Christians, to STOP and slow down in our chaotic lives and embrase the moment....with praising, singing and taking the extra step to show love and gratitude towards family and friends.
and even with the atheists, we can STILL engage in a little showing of gratitude towards each other as friends.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 12, 2007, 12:20:52 PM
Don't care who or what anybody celebrates.....Christmas has become way too secular anymore for most folks...including me. But, as a family, we still recongnize the Birth of Christ, and simply use it as a time to be grateful to God. We still have fun with the Santa Clause and everything. But, it is nice, that at least for Christians, to STOP and slow down in our chaotic lives and embrase the moment....with praising, singing and taking the extra step to show love and gratitude towards family and friends.
and even with the atheists, we can STILL engage in a little showing of gratitude towards each other as friends.
I think based on history, it has always been "secular":
QuoteChristmas, annual Christian holiday commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ. Most members of the Roman Catholic Church and followers of Protestantism celebrate Christmas on December 25, and many celebrate on the evening of December 24 as well. Members of most Orthodox Churches around the world also celebrate the holiday on December 25. Some Orthodox Christians in Russia, Ukraine, the Holy Land (the historic region of Palestine), and elsewhere celebrate Christmas on January 7 because they follow the Julian calendar. Members of the Armenian Church observe Christmas on January 6, following the unique custom of celebrating both the birth and baptism of Christ on the same day.
The official Christmas season, popularly known as either Christmastide or the Twelve Days of Christmas, extends from the anniversary of Christ's birth on December 25 to the feast of Epiphany on January 6. On the Epiphany, some Catholics and Protestants celebrate the visit of the Magi while Orthodox Christians, who call the feast Theophany, celebrate the baptism of Christ.
The most important holiday on the Christian calendar is Easter, which commemorates the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus. Nevertheless, many people, particularly in the United States and Canada, consider Christmas to be the most significant annual Christian event. In addition to being a religious holiday, Christmas is a widely observed secular festival. For most people who celebrate Christmas, the holiday season is characterized by gatherings among family and friends, feasting, and gift giving.
Christmas is based on the story of Jesus' birth as described in the Gospel according to Matthew (see Matthew 1:18-2:12) and the Gospel according to Luke (see Luke 1:26-56). Roman Catholics first celebrated Christmas, then known as the Feast of the Nativity, as early as Ad 336. The word Christmas entered the English language sometime around 1050 as the Old English phrase Christes maesse, meaning "festival of Christ." Scholars believe the frequently used shortened form of Christmas—Xmas—may have come into use in the 13th century. The X stands for the Greek letter chi, an abbreviation of Khristos (Christ), and also represents the cross on which Jesus was crucified.
But wait there's more....
Quote
II Origins of Christmas
Print this section
Historians are unsure exactly when Christians first began celebrating the Nativity of Christ. However, most scholars believe that Christmas originated in the 4th century as a Christian substitute for pagan celebrations of the winter solstice. Before the introduction of Christmas, each year beginning on December 17 Romans honored Saturn, the ancient god of agriculture, in a festival called Saturnalia. This festival lasted for seven days and included the winter solstice, which usually occurred around December 25 on the ancient Julian calendar. During Saturnalia the Romans feasted, postponed all business and warfare, exchanged gifts, and temporarily freed their slaves. Many Romans also celebrated the lengthening of daylight following the winter solstice by participating in rituals to glorify Mithra, the ancient Persian god of light (see Mithraism). These and other winter festivities continued through January 1, the festival of Kalends, when Romans marked the day of the new moon and the first day of the month and year.
Although the Gospels describe Jesus' birth in detail, they never mention the date, so historians do not know on what date he was born. The Roman Catholic Church chose December 25 as the day for the Feast of the Nativity in order to give Christian meaning to existing pagan rituals. For example, the Church replaced festivities honoring the birth of Mithra, the god of light, with festivities to commemorate the birth of Jesus, whom the Bible calls the light of the world. The Catholic Church hoped to draw pagans into its religion by allowing them to continue their revelry while simultaneously honoring the birthday of Jesus. The Eastern Orthodox Church took a slightly different course. By the end of the 4th century the Eastern Church in Constantinople had also begun to acknowledge December 25 as Jesus' birthday, but it emphasized the celebration of Christ's baptism on January 6 as the more important holiday.
Over the next 1000 years, the observance of Christmas followed the expansion of Christianity into the rest of Europe and into Egypt. Along the way, Christian beliefs combined with existing pagan feasts and winter rituals to create many long-standing traditions of Christmas celebrations. For example, ancient Europeans believed that the mistletoe plant held magic powers to bestow life and fertility, to bring about peace, and to protect against disease. Northern Europeans associated the plant with the Norse goddess of love, Freya, and developed the custom of kissing underneath mistletoe branches. Christians incorporated this custom into their Christmas celebrations, and kissing under a mistletoe branch eventually became a part of secular Christmas tradition.
During the Reformation of the 16th century, Protestants challenged the authority of the Catholic Church, including its toleration of surviving pagan traditions during Christmas festivities. For a brief time during the 17th century, Puritans banned Christmas in England and in some English colonies in North America because they felt it had become a season best known for gambling, flamboyant public behavior, and overindulgence in food and drink.
That's pretty secular, but...
QuoteEuropeans who settled in North America often found they had to change their Christmas celebrations because they could not faithfully recreate the traditions of their homelands. For example, colonists in the American South may have aspired to recreate a sense of the English Christmas. But colonial accounts of Christmas celebrations in the South do not mention the presence of mummers (masked or costumed merrymakers) or waits (musicians or carolers paid to perform at Christmastime), both of which were central figures of the traditional English Christmas. Nor do historical accounts describe settlers engaging in such traditional English customs as feasting on boars' heads or drinking from wassail bowls (bowls filled with spiced ale or wine).
Colonists from England, France, Holland, Spain, and other countries also gradually modified their Christmas ceremonies as they encountered new cultures and traditions in the New World. For example, in large towns, where diverse groups lived close together, the common ground for celebration could often be found in public and secular festivities rather than in potentially divisive religious ceremonies. Thus, at least in New York City, the winter's holidays often culminated on New Year's, not Christmas.
III Rise of the Modern American Christmas
QuoteIn the United States and Canada, many elements of modern Christmas celebrations did not emerge until the 19th century. Before then Christmas had been an ordinary workday in many communities, particularly in New England, where early Puritan objections to Christmas celebrations remained highly influential. Among some groups, Christmas was an especially boisterous event, characterized by huge feasts, drunkenness, and raucous public revelry. In an English tradition that survived in some parts of North America, Christmas revelers would dress in costume and progress from door to door to receive gifts of food and drink. Most holiday gifts were limited to small amounts of money and modest presents passed from the wealthy to the poor and from masters to their servants. Families almost never exchanged Christmas gifts among themselves.
The rapidly expanding industrial economy of the 19th century not only flooded the market with new goods for sale, but also helped establish a new middle class, one that placed special value on home and family life. Christmas gained increased prominence largely because many people believed it could draw families together and honor children. Giving gifts to children and loved ones eventually replaced the raucous public celebrations of the past, and Christmas became primarily a domestic holiday.
The new custom of Christmas gift giving allowed the marketplace to exert an unprecedented influence on holiday celebrations. Commercial innovations such as department stores and mass advertising further expanded the custom of exchanging Christmas gifts. Seasonal retail sales helped fuel the economy, causing merchants and advertisers to become some of the season's most ardent promoters. Many holiday celebrants regretted these changes, however, and began voicing the now common lament that Christmas had become too commercial.
Christmas also gained new importance among urban residents. Cities became crowded with immigrants, who introduced a wide variety of religious and cultural practices to North American life. Celebrating Christmas emerged as a way for people from different parts of the world to create a sense of community in the city. The holiday forged a broad, nondenominational sense of Christian spirit while promoting an idealized sense of communal good will.
A Santa Claus
As Christmas evolved in the United States, new customs were adopted and many old ones were reworked. The legend of Santa Claus, for example, had origins in Europe and was brought by Dutch settlers to New York in the early 18th century. Traditionally, Santa Claus—from the Dutch Sinterklaas—was depicted as a tall, dignified, religious figure riding a white horse through the air. Known as Saint Nicholas in Germany, he was usually accompanied by Black Peter, an elf who punished disobedient children. In North America he eventually developed into a fat, jolly old gentleman who had neither the religious attributes of Saint Nicholas nor the strict disciplinarian character of Black Peter.
Santa's transformation began in 1823, when a New York newspaper published the poem "A Visit from Saint Nicholas," which Clement Clark Moore had written to amuse his daughter. The poem introduced many Americans to the story of a kindly saint who flew over housetops in a reindeer–drawn sleigh. Portraits and drawings of Santa Claus by American illustrator Thomas Nast further strengthened the legend during the second half of the 19th century. Living at the North Pole and assisted by elves, the modern Santa produced and delivered toys to all good children. By the late 19th century he had become such a prominent figure of American folklore that in 1897, when Virginia O'Hanlon wrote to the New York Sun newspaper asking if Santa were real, she received a direct answer: "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus."
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761556859/Christmas.html
So, it appears as if Jesus was assigned a birthday based on pagan rituals and the celebration of Christmas hasn't changed a whole lot with exception to everything closing.
and your point is...
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 12, 2007, 12:57:38 PM
and your point is...
This is PIYA ------> :wall:
:biggrin:
Quote from: Locutus on December 12, 2007, 01:13:30 PM
This is PIYA ------> :wall:
:biggrin:
she wrote as if WE didn't know that stuff already....
i think my point was overlooked not hers.....
One thing we can't forget :biggrin: , it's CHRISTmas.
Xmas works fine too.
Actually I always chuckle when I see one of those lame "reason for the season" proclamations. Obviously those folks don't have a clue about the real origin.
And during my religious trek, I had more difficulty with Christmas than any other time in my life, since the bible spoke directly against it. Just another one of many condtradictions that pushed me away.
I look back now and wonder how I could have been gullible enough to even try believing that stuff. I guess it was part of the learning experience. I feel a lot happier now. :biggrin:
Have Happy Holidays
Quote from: Mr442 on December 12, 2007, 03:23:02 PM
Xmas works fine too.
Actually I always chuckle when I see one of those lame "reason for the season" proclamations. Obviously those folks don't have a clue about the real origin.
Henry, this is part of my point and the other part was in reference to your comment that the holiday has become "more secular". Perhaps it has w/in your personal experience, but overall, throughout history, the holiday hasn't been and still isn't observed in the same way or for the same reasons.
Quote from: PIYA on December 12, 2007, 04:02:33 PM
Henry, this is part of my point and the other part was in reference to your comment that the holiday has become "more secular". Perhaps it has w/in your personal experience, but overall, throughout history, the holiday hasn't been and still isn't observed in the same way or for the same reasons.
i think, if anybody is to blame for what i call a secular christmas, it would be the Christians themselve falling into the trap set up by the secular world we live in. Christians of the past generations, celebrated Christmas, with the birth of Christ as the "reason for the season" so to speak...it was not commercial. But, what bothers me is the political incorrectness that has overtaken Christmas and Christianity in whole. You can talk about God all day long to people but if you bring up Jesus as Lord..................WOW! people don't want to talk anymore.....and I have experienced this first hand many, many, many times.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 12, 2007, 04:36:52 PM
i think, if anybody is to blame for what i call a secular christmas, it would be the Christians themselve falling into the trap set up by the secular world we live in. Christians of the past generations, celebrated Christmas, with the birth of Christ as the "reason for the season" so to speak...it was not commercial. But, what bothers me is the political incorrectness that has overtaken Christmas and Christianity in whole. You can talk about God all day long to people but if you bring up Jesus as Lord..................WOW! people don't want to talk anymore.....and I have experienced this first hand many, many, many times.
Did you read the history of the holiday? :confused:
Quote from: PIYA on December 12, 2007, 04:52:12 PM
Did you read the history of the holiday? :confused:
yes I did.....and that is a from a secularist's point of view. Christians, followers of Christ.....celebrate the birth of Christ....as we do Easter as the resurrection of Christ...as a time of giving thanks, and taking an extra opportunity to worship Him in a ceremonious way.......just because the secular crowd has overcome these holidays, does NOT deminish the Christian values of these events.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 12, 2007, 05:02:07 PM
yes I did.....and that is a from a secularist's point of view. Christians, followers of Christ.....celebrate the birth of Christ....as we do Easter as the resurrection of Christ...as a time of giving thanks, and taking an extra opportunity to worship Him in a ceremonious way.......just because the secular crowd has overcome these holidays, does NOT deminish the Christian values of these events.
That is the documented historical account of the holiday. Facts are facts. IF you and other Christians want to acknowledge it as a holy day, knock your socks off, however don't complain that the meaning of the holiday is being changed into a secular meaning, because it's the Christians attempted to change it from it's original intent to begin with.
Quote from: PIYA on December 12, 2007, 05:13:39 PM
That is the documented historical account of the holiday. Facts are facts. IF you and other Christians want to acknowledge it as a holy day, knock your socks off, however don't complain that the meaning of the holiday is being changed into a secular meaning, because it's the Christians attempted to change it from it's original intent to begin with.
whatever....you truly do NOT have a clue to being a Christian.....and reading so called fact of holy days, don't mean didly squat....I know what IS happening and what HAS happened.....it may not be in any books, but it is obvious what is going on.....i live it and see it....I know the history of this land....the way it was and the way it IS......not rocket science....it is really simple...and sad.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 12, 2007, 07:08:32 PM
whatever....you truly do NOT have a clue to being a Christian.....and reading so called fact of holy days, don't mean didly squat....I know what IS happening and what HAS happened.....it may not be in any books, but it is obvious what is going on.....i live it and see it....I know the history of this land....the way it was and the way it IS......not rocket science....it is really simple...and sad.
Annoying isn't it? But cheer up, the end is near..lol. There was a time when I wouldn't have believed what comes out of these people's mouths would be said by any but lunatics. I knew these days were around the corner, but TADA, here they are now. It's a combination of things, Spirit of delusion and the mystery of sin come to fruition. It's about seal, vials and trumps time.
But...judgment comes first to the house of the Lord. If you think things suck now, it's nothing like what's coming. The herd will be thinned.
Then it's rock n roll time...
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 12, 2007, 07:08:32 PM
whatever....you truly do NOT have a clue to being a Christian.....and reading so called fact of holy days, don't mean didly squat....I know what IS happening and what HAS happened.....it may not be in any books, but it is obvious what is going on.....i live it and see it....I know the history of this land....the way it was and the way it IS......not rocket science....it is really simple...and sad.
Wow, you're a lil' testy when faced w/the fallacy of your thinking aren't ya?
Christianity
is interconnected w/Christmas throughout history. It's a holiday seeped in VARIOUS traditions and beliefs and I think you're missing my point. The holiday has been secular all along regardless of it's connection to Christianity.
Why do you perceive the truth about the origin of Christmas to be an attack on your faith? I haven't said anything negative about Christianity or your personal faith at all.
Quote from: PIYA on December 12, 2007, 11:40:27 PM
Wow, you're a lil' testy when faced w/the fallacy of your thinking aren't ya?
Christianity is interconnected w/Christmas throughout history. It's a holiday seeped in VARIOUS traditions and beliefs and I think you're missing my point. The holiday has been secular all along regardless of it's connection to Christianity.
Why do you perceive the truth about the origin of Christmas to be an attack on your faith? I haven't said anything negative about Christianity or your personal faith at all.
I am going to pinch hit for HH if I may be so bold on this one.
Christmas is foremost about Christ and his birthday. Over the years this message has been watered down and glossed over until we got acceptance of nativity scenes being booted out of the traditional spots. People are instructed not to say Merry Christmas even because it might offend someone.
This kind of crap didn't happen years ago, people from all over would have went nuts.
Then you factor in how commercialized Christmas has become, how it's shoved down our throats to spend barrels of money during the toughest season of the year, and if you don't, then you just didn't have a "good Christmas".
To top it off, there is nothing sacred, there is nothing pure. Christmas gets dumped on by filth, it's hammered with more than it's share of vulgarity and in contrast to those days of yesteryear it's losing its meaning and frankly it's magic.
30, 40 years ago it was special, now.....*sigh*
Quote from: lex on December 13, 2007, 12:03:47 AM
I am going to pinch hit for HH if I may be so bold on this one.
Christmas is foremost about Christ and his birthday.
Why? If they don't even know when his birthday was, then why December 25th?
"The Roman Catholic Church chose December 25 as the day for the Feast of the Nativity in order to give Christian meaning to existing pagan rituals. " However, if believing that it's Christ's birthday, gives the day a lil' more meaning for you, HH and countless others, then by all means...carry on.
Quote from: lex on December 13, 2007, 12:03:47 AM
Over the years this message has been watered down and glossed over until we got acceptance of nativity scenes being booted out of the traditional spots. People are instructed not to say Merry Christmas even because it might offend someone.
Government property, be it city, county, state or federal property should be free of all religious displays. Those agencies serve people of all faiths and should be representative of all faiths or none at all. Business may be guilty of instructing their employees not to say "Merry Christmas" for much the same reason. Their bottom line comes from many different religious and non-religious backgrounds. Personally, I can see why generic would be better in both of those cases. However, if you, HH and scores of others would like to run through the streets with your Merry Christmas sweaters, screaming Merry Christmas at the tops of your lungs, waving Merry Christmas banners, no one cares. If you're bothered that the message is "watered down" then you say "Merry Christmas".
Quote from: lex on December 13, 2007, 12:03:47 AM
Then you factor in how commercialized Christmas has become, how it's shoved down our throats to spend barrels of money during the toughest season of the year, and if you don't, then you just didn't have a "good Christmas".
This I agree with, but what isn't commercialized? Keeping up w/the Joneses and all that.
Quote from: lex on December 13, 2007, 12:03:47 AM
To top it off, there is nothing sacred, there is nothing pure. Christmas gets dumped on by filth, it's hammered with more than it's share of vulgarity and in contrast to those days of yesteryear it's losing its meaning and frankly it's magic.
30, 40 years ago it was special, now.....*sigh*
30, 40 years ago, you were a kid. Everything seems special and magical to kids.
The United States Government made Christmas a national holiday. On it we should be celebrating Christmas and all of it's goodies, that includes JESUS, for pity's sake the holiday is named after him. If people don't like it they need to put a sock in it and shut up.
Should we decide to made another religious holiday part of the national holiday then by golly we will let them do it up right as well.
The Congress shall not make any law respecting religion. Respecting means PERTAINING TO. Our founding fathers was saying when it came to anything of religion, the government needs to STFU and mind it's own business.
We are still suffering today from Government influence upon religion today from a horrible mistake of misinterpreting that amendment for our own whims. It was when the Morman church was beset upon by the Federal Government when they were in their own state, within their own laws.
This is when the Feds decided to ignore "shall not make any law pertaining to religion". Now the wording has been twisted, and the heathens are using it to their advantage.
Quote from: PIYA on December 12, 2007, 11:40:27 PM
Wow, you're a lil' testy when faced w/the fallacy of your thinking aren't ya?
Christianity is interconnected w/Christmas throughout history. It's a holiday seeped in VARIOUS traditions and beliefs and I think you're missing my point. The holiday has been secular all along regardless of it's connection to Christianity.
Why do you perceive the truth about the origin of Christmas to be an attack on your faith? I haven't said anything negative about Christianity or your personal faith at all.
you have not conceived my point.....I fully understand yours. I do not think you can understand, I guess it is like when some blacks say it's a "black thing".....we come from different worlds piya, sounds crazy, but my world is recongnizing my Lord first and foremost...period. I'm not testy at you, I am frustrated how nobody even comes close to understanding 'Christians'. They always have to go to the Pat Robertson types and use them as a poster child, when the TV evangelist noways come near representing the vast majority of the hard working day to day Christians in the Country, who are sick to death about having to defend EVERYTHING about our religion.
Schools can have gay/lesbian days and gay awareness day, and that is alrighty.....but, don't even think about having a Christian prayer group meet on school grounds.....Life for Christ groups have been shut down in most public school systems, because the administration is tired of dealing with a small group of idiots who claim thier constitution is being violated...which crap, but it costs the schools money to fight every one of the BS attempts at busting up the word of God.
At one time, Christmans was illegal in the colonies, as it was at one time in England. America being the melting pot it is, has adapted many different Christmas traditions, to make it a very American holiday. Most of those traditions centered around a new year, the renewal of life, and some gift giving. Americans have been the ones guilty of pushing the religious angle, more than any other culture.
And FWIW, Easter has very pagan (Wiccan I beleive) roots when it comes to rabbits laying colored eggs. That is another one that makes me laugh due to the irony. Good Christians out collecting their pagan eggs. Talk about not practicing what you preach!
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 10, 2007, 09:19:15 AM
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2007/12/09/why_atheists_are_so_angry (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2007/12/09/why_atheists_are_so_angry)
One reason I think is that they are God-haters.
Thanks, but it is hard to hate something that doesn't exist. Now, the god of the bible is worthy of contempt, as any rational human being can conclude for themselves. But hate, no. It is all pretty laughable. Now, where did you get your strawman that "atheists are angry"?
Quote from: lex on December 10, 2007, 11:45:19 AM
You got to think of things on the whole in these matters. We can't ignore spiritual warfare and think this is just a human being thing. As Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit, its only logical the non-believers are guided by the enemy.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Yes, we are guided by the prince of darkness, Darth Vader. And you wonder how it is you can't possibly be taken seriously by rational human beings. Again, how is it that you live in a episode of Star Wars, cosmic game of good and evil, and can say such shiite and are suprised when people like me laugh at it. Thanks for the entertainment factor, however.
Quote from: lex on December 13, 2007, 01:21:39 AM
The United States Government made Christmas a national holiday. On it we should be celebrating Christmas and all of it's goodies, that includes JESUS, for pity's sake the holiday is named after him. If people don't like it they need to put a sock in it and shut up.
Should we decide to made another religious holiday part of the national holiday then by golly we will let them do it up right as well.
The Congress shall not make any law respecting religion. Respecting means PERTAINING TO. Our founding fathers was saying when it came to anything of religion, the government needs to STFU and mind it's own business.
We are still suffering today from Government influence upon religion today from a horrible mistake of misinterpreting that amendment for our own whims. It was when the Morman church was beset upon by the Federal Government when they were in their own state, within their own laws.
This is when the Feds decided to ignore "shall not make any law pertaining to religion". Now the wording has been twisted, and the heathens are using it to their advantage.
The gov't has no business sanctioning a religious holiday and just because that mistaken practice, et al, still exists, doesn't make it right. No, christmas has become secular, whether you like it or not, and is really just the pagan winter solstice festival it started out as. You can worship jesus, if you want. Just don't expect the gov't, or the rest of us to.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 13, 2007, 08:45:38 AM
you have not conceived my point.....I fully understand yours. I do not think you can understand, I guess it is like when some blacks say it's a "black thing".....we come from different worlds piya, sounds crazy, but my world is recongnizing my Lord first and foremost...period. I'm not testy at you, I am frustrated how nobody even comes close to understanding 'Christians'. They always have to go to the Pat Robertson types and use them as a poster child, when the TV evangelist noways come near representing the vast majority of the hard working day to day Christians in the Country, who are sick to death about having to defend EVERYTHING about our religion.
Schools can have gay/lesbian days and gay awareness day, and that is alrighty.....but, don't even think about having a Christian prayer group meet on school grounds.....Life for Christ groups have been shut down in most public school systems, because the administration is tired of dealing with a small group of idiots who claim thier constitution is being violated...which crap, but it costs the schools money to fight every one of the BS attempts at busting up the word of God.
Schools celebrate gay and lesbian days? Strange. It would be nice if schools just taught math and science, with some humanities/art thrown in for good measure. And they sure don't need religion pushed in (other than survey classes in the humanities side) to foul things up. Religion is a personal choice and not to be promoted by any school. Take your kids and home school them if you don't want them to get a secular education (aka a meaningful one).
Its the small group of idiots that want school prayer, jesus classes (and AHoles like chunk gonads that want a bible in every classroom) that are messing up the works. I would be just as resistant to a school board allowing a gay/lesbian day as I would them letting ID in schools or abstinence only idiocy. So, hank if you are telling the truth (and I really doubt that), what school is celebrating gay and lesbian days?
Quote from: dan foster on December 14, 2007, 07:56:01 PM
Schools celebrate gay and lesbian days? Strange. It would be nice if schools just taught math and science, with some humanities/art thrown in for good measure. And they sure don't need religion pushed in (other than survey classes in the humanities side) to foul things up. Religion is a personal choice and not to be promoted by any school. Take your kids and home school them if you don't want them to get a secular education (aka a meaningful one).
Its the small group of idiots that want school prayer, jesus classes (and AHoles like chunk gonads that want a bible in every classroom) that are messing up the works. I would be just as resistant to a school board allowing a gay/lesbian day as I would them letting ID in schools or abstinence only idiocy. So, hank if you are telling the truth (and I really doubt that), what school is celebrating gay and lesbian days?
I'm sort of getting tired of you calling me a liar, this is not the first time.....http://www.thebody.com/content/art5942.html (http://www.thebody.com/content/art5942.html)
The San Francisco Unified School District (SFUSD) established their Support Services for Gay, Lesbian & Bisexual Youth program because of their belief that "[a]ll students within the SFUSD have a right to an education in a safe and nurturing enviroment. This includes students who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or those who are questioning their sexuality."In the St. Paul public schools, the "Out for Equity" program provides voluntary support groups for gay and lesbian students in three schools. The program's materials make quite clear that it is not a part of the curriculum, it is completely voluntary, and there is no recruiting or advocating of homosexuality. this is just a few from this article, I have read there are thousand of public schools that have special classes set up for gay awareness...
and I'm NOT saying religion should be PUSHED on anybody..........I'm with you 100%, always have been Dan......It IS a personal choice...PERIOD......Please get that through your head..........I, along with most Christians believe that....I'm saying there have been cases where some schools will NOT allow Christian groups to meet on school property after school hours....and I think that is wrong...but, allowing the Gay Values be taught on the Federal Dime.....double standard as far as I'm concerned......
and I sure do agree that we should be back to teaching the 3 R's.....and leave the rest to the parents to teach....
Quote from: dan foster on December 14, 2007, 07:38:29 PM
Thanks, but it is hard to hate something that doesn't exist. Now, the god of the bible is worthy of contempt, as any rational human being can conclude for themselves. But hate, no. It is all pretty laughable. Now, where did you get your strawman that "atheists are angry"?
you are the best example I have seen of an angry atheist...........................you despise everything our Country stands for as far a its heritage of God and Country.............it is loaded with it, and YOUR leader ( ;D ) Dawkins.....is the angriest of them all... :yes: ;)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 14, 2007, 08:56:30 PM
I'm sort of getting tired of you calling me a liar, this is not the first time.....http://www.thebody.com/content/art5942.html (http://www.thebody.com/content/art5942.html)
The San Francisco Unified School District (SFUSD) established their Support Services for Gay, Lesbian & Bisexual Youth program because of their belief that "[a]ll students within the SFUSD have a right to an education in a safe and nurturing enviroment. This includes students who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or those who are questioning their sexuality."
In the St. Paul public schools, the "Out for Equity" program provides voluntary support groups for gay and lesbian students in three schools. The program's materials make quite clear that it is not a part of the curriculum, it is completely voluntary, and there is no recruiting or advocating of homosexuality.
this is just a few from this article, I have read there are thousand of public schools that have special classes set up for gay awareness...
and I'm NOT saying religion should be PUSHED on anybody..........I'm with you 100%, always have been Dan......It IS a personal choice...PERIOD......Please get that through your head..........I, along with most Christians believe that....I'm saying there have been cases where some schools will NOT allow Christian groups to meet on school property after school hours....and I think that is wrong...but, allowing the Gay Values be taught on the Federal Dime.....double standard as far as I'm concerned......
and I sure do agree that we should be back to teaching the 3 R's.....and leave the rest to the parents to teach....
Thanks for clarifyng. You aren't a liar, you are just stupid. The two gay/lesbian citations you use say nothing about celebrating "gay and lesbian" days in any way whatsoever. They are support groups for a battered class of students and they are not "allowing the teaching of Gay Values on the Federal dime". Nice strawman as I pointed out. Another non issue presented as a war on christianity. Christians have a big problem with credibility already (believing in ghosts, et al) without some of you making shiite up.
Now, most school systems (MOST) allow after school, non-required religious organizations to meet. If certain groups were not allowed it is probably because they are also some sort of hate group. I don't think I would allow the Arian Nation or Westboro Baptist, self described "christian groups" to meet on my school grounds, either. I am guessing in this case, so without some evidence from you on exactly what group has been denied, then I think your strawman has completely fallen apart and you are full of it, as usual.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 14, 2007, 09:02:24 PM
you are the best example I have seen of an angry atheist...........................you despise everything our Country stands for as far a its heritage of God and Country.............it is loaded with it, and YOUR leader ( ;D ) Dawkins.....is the angriest of them all... :yes: ;)
Angry, how so. Now you are just lying as I don't think you are that stupid. How do I "espise everything our Country stands for as far a its heritage of God and Country"? I do despise those who want to rewrite history where the crackpot pilgrims and puritans won and we are under a theocracy, vice what really happened.
We live in a secular country under a secular Constitution and there isn't anything you can do about it, beyond treason. I support and defend the Constitution of the United States and you and your ilk will never win on your puritanical wonderlust, no matter how hard you pray for the revision of our history. Never.
Now, does that sound angry? Treason against what our country does stand for does make me angry, but I can assure you, your attempt to undermine that is only laughable. There are only a handfull of you that have never read our history and get what you DO think you know from a another handfull of nutcases like Kennedy, camped out in the same FL area as the likes of Mark Foley and other "deceivers of men" ;>) You owe somebody a lot of rams, or is that Ewe owe someone some rams? :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
3Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:
4Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found,
5Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering.
6And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest:
7And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Quote from: dan foster on December 14, 2007, 10:32:58 PM
Angry, how so. Now you are just lying as I don't think you are that stupid. How do I "espise everything our Country stands for as far a its heritage of God and Country"? I do despise those who want to rewrite history where the crackpot pilgrims and puritans won and we are under a theocracy, vice what really happened.
We live in a secular country under a secular Constitution and there isn't anything you can do about it, beyond treason. I support and defend the Constitution of the United States and you and your ilk will never win on your puritanical wonderlust, no matter how hard you pray for the revision of our history. Never.
Now, does that sound angry? Treason against what our country does stand for does make me angry, but I can assure you, your attempt to undermine that is only laughable. There are only a handfull of you that have never read our history and get what you DO think you know from a another handfull of nutcases like Kennedy, camped out in the same FL area as the likes of Mark Foley and other "deceivers of men" ;>) You owe somebody a lot of rams, or is that Ewe owe someone some rams? :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
3Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:
4Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found,
5Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering.
6And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest:
7And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Nothing here some Prozac wouldn't help.
Quote from: lex on December 14, 2007, 10:42:54 PM
Nothing here some Prozac wouldn't help.
Wow, and I wrote all that stuff, and things, and typed with such great anger and, and, and all I get is this? GRRR! I am also so shocked ol' hank can't fend for himself and needs your superhero status to argue his point with such eloquence as presented here.
Do either of you have any kind of data to go on that isn't some manufactured strawman, or just wondrously easy phrases like the one you presented here?
Now, before you mistake me for being angry, again, please know that I can type (although not without a few errors) much faster than you think (yes, pun intended goddamn it :biggrin:)
Quote from: dan foster on December 14, 2007, 10:50:18 PM
Wow, and I wrote all that stuff, and things, and typed with such great anger and, and, and all I get is this? GRRR! I am also so shocked ol' hank can't fend for himself and needs your superhero status to argue his point with such eloquence as presented here.
Do either of you have any kind of data to go on that isn't some manufactured strawman, or just wondrously easy phrases like the one you presented here?
Now, before you mistake me for being angry, again, please know that I can type (although not without a few errors) much faster than you think (yes, pun intended goddamn it :biggrin:)
Lies! I smell cut n paste on your breath.
He is a disciple of the Church of Richard Dawkins......Lex, dan is no different, he put his faith into Mr. Dawkins, as we do God.. ;) ;D
That is where he gets MOST of his talking points from.............he SAYS he thinks for himself, but WE know better... ;)
He cut's n paste quotes from the Bible that Dawkins uses all the time and says that we are TOO stupid and are liars....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 15, 2007, 07:58:54 AM
He is a disciple of the Church of Richard Dawkins......Lex, dan is no different, he put his faith into Mr. Dawkins, as we do God.. ;) ;D
That is where he gets MOST of his talking points from.............he SAYS he thinks for himself, but WE know better... ;)
He cut's n paste quotes from the Bible that Dawkins uses all the time and says that we are TOO stupid and are liars....
He's an angry one. Lots of energy spent hating that could be spent on something productive. Probably real young. He must have been burned by someone in church or something, it happens. I get a big kick out of how they try to say we are rewriting history, when it's their people that are doing that. He's misguided, but there is going to be a lot more of that coming. I have watched the gradual steps of brainwashing versus Christians over the years, and between TV, Holywood, and academia, they about got the job done.
It's all part of the mechanism of the end times just falling into place piece at a time. I hate talking about it, I get sick of preachers screaming about it and using it to brain their flocks over the head with fear and puff up their bank accounts. It's a time of preparation, not setting around waiting to get beamed out like star trek and think we get to miss out on all the rough stuff. I believe some of the crap Christians are taught these days about end times is 1,000,000 times more dangerous than all of the foam at the mouth anti-christs we have running about.
The parable of the foolish virgins is in play at the moment. Forget about the dan fosters of this world, it's oil one needs for the darkness ahead.
I have to interject here. You both seem to projecting and making assumptions, but not providing a whole lot of facts to support your theories. If he's wrong. Then prove it. That would put an end to it. So far, you've both failed in the proof department and you've reduced your entire argument to aspersions with a little "me too" thrown in there. From what I can tell, you have the poor persecuted christian spiel down to a science. Why's everyone always pickin' on me?. You can't say with any degree of certainty that all atheists are angry. I think that's a judgment call that would need to be made on an individual to individual basis regardless of faith or non-faith. I don't think Dan's angry and where's all that christian happiness from you two?
Let me explain it from my point of view if it helps. It's all spiritual in nature. It's what Jesus was talking about when he said "born again". He's on about one being born in their spiritual being, it coming alive in them and taking in things of the spirit, with one's spiritual mind, eyes, and ears.
For me, like many, it was a supernatural experience. It was as if weights fell off of me, and the entire world looked new and different to me, things that were clouded to me became clearer and clearer. This experience was quickly re-enforced as I was grievously injured not too long after my "born again" experience. I went down to the alter for prayer on crutches, and walked away without them completely healed. It wasn't some big fancy production, just a tiny humble church with some beloved brothers and sisters.
That was many years ago, but even as I have traveled far away, I haven't forgot what I experienced, and I have seen other things and had other experiences.
Now I have always been a scientist. When I was young, I read science books constantly. I was more interested in lasers, nuclear energy, and solar power than I was playing sports. I could explain to you what E=mc2 meant before I was out of 6th grade. Even back then I was questioning Einstein's relativity theories, because frankly I thought they had holes in them.
My favorite author was Isaac Asimov, his foundation trilogy was my favorite. But I don't see science at odds with God as so many do. I know Einstein didn't either, in fact he's got some good quotes like "God doesn't play dice with the Universe." He was referring in my opinion to the laws of nature, principles that we are still to this day just scratching the surface of.
I don't look at the worlds around me puzzled, it all makes sense to me at a deep level of my being. I see a disaster, and it makes sense in the big picture. I see a tree, or a baby or an ice cream cone and it's all part of a big picture.
I also marvel at the mathematical probabilities of our existence here if one was to just try to shake us out of cosmic dust into what we are. Our whole existence is exponentially improbable, it defies odds in such a way we are almost a singularity.
There is a little principle that states all things being sorta equal, the simplest explanation is most likely to be true. So, its not hard for me to balance a mountain of math saying fat chance versus the explanation of intelligent design.
I look at a tree and admire the designer's handiwork. The closer I look, the more I see the creator's vast intellect in it. I don't have to be convinced, it's all just very obvious and it baffles me how others can miss it. To me they can't see the forest for all the trees in the way. It's like we are standing in the middle of it all and people demanding you show them. It's all around us, I am freaked out you can't see it.
Then people want to argue and debate there are no trees and we are standing in a forest together. Frankly, I don't have time for it, because if someone doesn't want to see something, they will not see it. And not everyone will, they could but they don't want to and frankly that is sad, but they have been told. They can't bitch then when they bump into trees or one falls on their head. But I am sure they will.
I am laughing too hard to be angry. I don't even own a Dawkins book. He would be preaching to the choir. I buy books for new ideas.
I get a really big kick out of things like "I have watched the gradual steps of brainwashing versus Christians over the years, and between TV, Holywood, and academia, they about got the job done." when in fact being a christian is to be brainwashed, and that is first hand knowledge.
So, you two clowns can rage against reality all you want, but your revisionist history won't take, your freudian slips like the last paragraph will just keep coming, and with no facts whatsoever to back up your claims, you will continue to find you have no answers for what you believe in or why.
This thread is funny.
Quote from: Thinker on December 15, 2007, 04:37:20 PM
This thread is funny.
And deep: This sounds like mescaline or peyote.
"I look at a tree and admire the designer's handiwork. The closer I look, the more I see the creator's vast intellect in it. I don't have to be convinced, it's all just very obvious and it baffles me how others can miss it. To me they can't see the forest for all the trees in the way. It's like we are standing in the middle of it all and people demanding you show them. It's all around us, I am freaked out you can't see it."
Whether synthetic, or self-induced psychologically, the results are the same.
I have a question. If God is perfect and we are created in his image, but are not perfect, how is God infallible?
Quote from: PIYA on December 15, 2007, 09:48:10 AM
I have to interject here. You both seem to projecting and making assumptions, but not providing a whole lot of facts to support your theories. If he's wrong. Then prove it. That would put an end to it. So far, you've both failed in the proof department and you've reduced your entire argument to aspersions with a little "me too" thrown in there. From what I can tell, you have the poor persecuted christian spiel down to a science. Why's everyone always pickin' on me?. You can't say with any degree of certainty that all atheists are angry. I think that's a judgment call that would need to be made on an individual to individual basis regardless of faith or non-faith. I don't think Dan's angry and where's all that christian happiness from you two?
are you saying that I AM NOT happy?..............Piya, I got NOTHING to prove, but if you have NOT read Dan's attacks on particulary ME, and not come to the conclusion HE is not angry.........then, there is nothing more to prove........
Look, I like dan, I honestly do.........if he and I was to sit in my bar...I have NO doubts we would get along just fantastic.......all I am doing is fighting back with his own tactics.............he claims I am just getting my words to live by from my church and church leaders...........and I'm just saying he is getting his own ammo from people like dawkins.............he has slammed me for being "too stupid" and a "liar"............and I have only just recently fired back................and I'm not real dang proud of it...............but, I can't sit at a bar and express my feelings the way I would love too............and using a keyboard sometimes don't allow true feeling to be displayed with the emotion attached.....
and again, I have NOTHING to prove for my Christianity..............if people on here don't care for it...................get over it.............I'm might have to raise my prices at my bar.... ;D ;)
Quote from: dan foster on December 15, 2007, 11:28:19 AM
I am laughing too hard to be angry. I don't even own a Dawkins book. He would be preaching to the choir. I buy books for new ideas.
I get a really big kick out of things like "I have watched the gradual steps of brainwashing versus Christians over the years, and between TV, Holywood, and academia, they about got the job done." when in fact being a christian is to be brainwashed, and that is first hand knowledge.
So, you two clowns can rage against reality all you want, but your revisionist history won't take, your freudian slips like the last paragraph will just keep coming, and with no facts whatsoever to back up your claims, you will continue to find you have no answers for what you believe in or why.
RIGHT!.. ;)...you NEVER read any of Dawkins....RIGHT DANNY........... ;D....I just laughed so hard I coughed all over my Bible...... ;D
Never. I saw him interviewed on a BBC documentary once. I agree with his work, but I have never read anything written by him. Now, why do you find that so hard to believe?
Quote from: lex on December 15, 2007, 11:24:57 AM
They can't bitch then when they bump into trees or one falls on their head. But I am sure they will.
:rotfl:
Trees better stay the hell away from me. Honestly, I look at trees too and sometimes wonder how some people don't believe in the Almighty...of course I'm looking at different trees than most people...trees that are truly divine (and coincidentally enough, illegal too :biggrin:).
Quote from: IYT on December 17, 2007, 09:42:16 AM
:rotfl:
Trees better stay the hell away from me. Honestly, I look at trees too and sometimes wonder how some people don't believe in the Almighty...of course I'm looking at different trees than most people...trees that are truly divine (and coincidentally enough, illegal too :biggrin:).
Ah, a spiritual high. Now, we can all agree with that as one route to oneness with the universe. Whether synthetic or self-induced through meditation, there are definitive physiological aspects to the mind, but still tied to physics (or at least chemistry :biggrin2:)
http://imagechan.com/img/img.php?id=1179
I think it's funny that DF is being chastised for allegedly following the writings of someone else (Dawkins) by people who follow a book written by unknown authors, in languages we don't really understand, edited by people who's agendas are completely unknown to us and translated multiple times with multiple results. If he does follow Dawkin's work, at least he knows who wrote it and speaks/reads the language it's written in. That makes it much more plausible than the bible.
Quote from: fireguy on December 18, 2007, 02:33:07 PM
I think it's funny that DF is being chastised for allegedly following the writings of someone else (Dawkins) by people who follow a book written by unknown authors, in languages we don't really understand, edited by people who's agendas are completely unknown to us and translated multiple times with multiple results. If he does follow Dawkin's work, at least he knows who wrote it and speaks/reads the language it's written in. That makes it much more plausible than the bible.
Yeah, I think Thinker started a thread to that effect somewhere around here.