This is a thread on my personal Facebook newsfeed created by one of my friends. Sadly, most of the responses are by my friends too. Read the comments and see if you can figure out the one person who really "gets it." He's someone who used to post on the old CNHI Hey Martha forum, and someone who I crossed paths with one or two times in debate.
This whole thread really illustrates the point that Y was making in which Americans love to believe in whatever makes them feel good, despite the fact that it may be a flat out lie. Each post is an individual response to the original post, and the original post follows. Please read them all, and then carry on with discussion as you see fit. I'll join in with my thoughts too.
P.S. Everything below until I step back in is a copy/paste of exactly what I see on Facebook. Sorry to make you read through to page 3 of the posts before you can comment, but reading the comments made is important to the discussion. Please read, and then opine on each of the poster's positions as they've stated them. I'll join in too.
Tina *:
IMO if you haven't been in war to defend our country then you have no right to ever say a bad word about the whole "Marine incident"!! The men and women that defend our country are giving you the right to sit on your liberal a$$es and talk smack about THEM!! REALLY?!?! Regardless if you agree w/what happened have a little respect for those that are defending YOU and YOUR rights to speak openly! If this offends you then feel free to delete me!! :)
Gina *:
Chris and I were saying the exact same thing this morning. I'm sure they didn't go into the military thinking they would ever do anything like that but who knows what they went through or what they saw to get to that point? Patton pissed in the Rhine to make his point after all!
Tina *:
Yea, it infuriates me to hear others talk about our military! The very ones that give them the right to open their mouth!!! Their the ones that would never even THINK of putting their lives on the line. Have some respect even if you don't agree. It's one of those "..until you walk in their shoes..." kinda things. Lets NOT forget what these ppl did to US and continue to do! Open your eyes people! Geeeeze!!
Grady *:
The whole "fighting for our freedom" line is the one that always makes me laugh. In reality, no soldier has fought for our freedom since World War II. Korea, Viet Nam, Desert Storm and the current wars are in no way "for our freedom".
Tina *:
Ummm...So if we were to be taken over by another country do you think we would be "free"? So I have to differ w/you. It's always about our freedom!
Grady *:
That's my point. No other country has threatened to take us over. Saddam wasn't a threat to us.
Karen *:
My stepson is a Marine who just finished a tour in Afghanistan. I appreciate you defending our military. We are certainly VERY proud of him and all he does for our country. As for not fighting for our freedom, I feel that they are no matter what war it may be that they are in. Protection doesn't stop at our borders.
Tina *:
What was 911? You think that wouldn't have been the beginning of something more had we sat on our asses and brushed it off?!? The "threat" is always there. It's our military that stops it before it becomes more of a reality.
Grady *:
Ok, explain to me what Saddam Hussein had to do with 9/11 ?
Grady *:
10 years after 9/11, Al Qaeda is still operating, Iraq has become more turbulent since the troop withdrawal. 10 years of war, nothing accomplished. The United States hasn't "won" a war since 1945. There is no victory in the middle east. Sure, our President claims to have killed Osama bin Laden but, there's no proof.
Grady *:
I've got no problem with soldiers pissing on taliban. What I do have a problem with is soldiers coming back over here and going on killing sprees because they can't adjust to civilian life. This whole PTSD thing needs to be re-examined. Maybe better screening is needed to prevent those who aren't strong mentally from being exposed to things that they can't handle.
Johnny *:
Typical liberal!
Tina *:
Until you've walked in their shoes. Which branch of the military did you serve Grady?
Grady *:
I'm actually a hardcore conservative. I'm just sick and tired of watching our country go broke and taken over by foreigners while it's citizens cheer for our military like it's their favorite football team while ignoring the REAL problems.
Grady *:
Don't give me that "until you've walked in their shoes" bullshit either. Try telling that to the park ranger who was just shot and killed by a mentally disturbed Iraq veteran a couple weeks ago. I didn't have to serve in the military because I could afford to go to college. For the record, my father was special forces, my two brothers were in Viet Nam. All served in the regular military, not some National Guard bullshit.
Johnny *:
National Guard Bullshit???
Johnny *:
RINO!!!
Gina *:
I guess the fact we have not been attacked since 9-11 has been lost on some people. I'd rather keep them tied up in the middle east than give them the chance to fight us here...and don't think for a second they're not trying to bring it here. We are the "Great Satan" to them. Women and children's lives have been improved for them. If I was ever under a sick regime or under the thumb of terrorist I would like to think someone would try to help.
Gary *:
whichever side you are on is irrelevant...it is laughable though how people can try and have a debate, spirited or not, and the name calling and questioning your loyalty & intelligence is brought up.
Americans are an arrogant people...and that has led to 90% of the problems we have faced globally. Are the other countries jealous of us? maybe some of these backward, 3rd world hell holes, but many European nations have pride and a belief they are as civilized as us...just not as loaded to the gills with weaponry.
Might Makes Right?
Gina *:
Btw, freedom also means living your life free from fear- to be able to live without worrying about suicide bombers in the market etc-which is why our military must be strong. Europeans are each as proud of their country as we are of ours. Do you call them arrogant? Is it wrong to be proud of the amazing republic we have or the amazing inventions or possibility for prosperity Americans have? Why is it wrong to be proud of America? We've made mistakes but we've overcome them. Show me a country that hasn't made a mistake and i'll show you la la land!!!
Jody *:
It's a bunch of crap that they are even covering this story. Hell, some people liked to get peed on while they're alive. My Great Aunt's laid down in ditches among dead people and their own blood just to stay alive in WW1. Who knows how much urine and feces was in there? It's just ridiculous it even gets media coverage.
Dan *:
it's too bad i can't read all the comments on here... figures Grady * is talking shit. he blocked me last year because he couldn't justify his dumbass positions and couldn't take the bashing he was getting with his anti military BS, so i can't see his ignorant comments... it is hilarious.
Gina *:
Dan don't worry I'm sure you heard it all before.... Americans are arrogant, the military is why we're broke, no country is better off because we fight for their freedom as well as theirs, we've caused all the problems in the world because we're militarily stronger, if America didn't exsist there would be no wars and the world would live in harmony- hahaha. The good news that came out this week for Gary is that smokin' dope does not cause lung cancer :)
Dan *:
yep... sounds like Gravy hasn't changed a bit... still a big 'ol bag of smashed assholes !!
Brian *:
It's safe to say considering what we know now from past wars like Vietnam that after being right in the middle of a lot of unnatural chaos and seeing things you're not always prepared for will make you do crazy things. Personally, I have no problem at all with the soldiers "baptizing" the enemy. That's a lot less than what those rag wearing cretins would do to any Americans they would capture. We essentially have a terrorist running the white house at the moment and now he's trying to release a number of those very same killers. Why? For peace? Those bastards don't want peace with us. They are going to keep on doing what they're doing and if you kill them all, the next generation is going to grow up and do it all over again. They hate us. Their ideology pretty much demands the death of anybody who thinks differently than they do. They'd love to make videos for every American citizen being decapitated or executed in some other gruesome fashion. Also, these soldiers apparently got about as much of a welcome home as the boys who came back from Vietnam. How ironic that if it weren't for America's soldiers fighting and dying to protect the American way of life (which the Bamster is slowly evaporating day by day), these sorry ass Occu-parasites wouldn't be able to spew their bile all over the nation while tearing up private property, raping women, defecating on police cars and costing tax payers even more money to keep their drunken, unbathed and unruly asses in check.
Michael *:
Hey Gravy...I invite you to come up to our base and talk that shit...or better yet...come up to the american legion I belong to and say that shit to the Vietnam veterans who lost their friends and or their entire platoon. That's right....you wont!! You just run ur suck on fb like a little bitch!! You might want to think before you type fuck face!! You can talk about these dickhead politicians all you want ....but you leave the veterans and the dedicated military personnel out if it!! You f@ckin piece of shit!!
Gary *:
wow
Tereasa *:
Damn good discussion for the most part! Definitely some crap thrown in! Dan, I would never block you! First of all I have no reason to and I honestly have now idea how! Trust me, you don't want to read his BS! Guess I will be blocked next! Oh well.....
Cindy *:
The "REAL" problems take a back seat when safety is threatened. Maslowe's Heiarchy of needs explains it in a simple, non-political way. When safety is threatened nothing, and I mean NOTHING, else matters. It is the primary need of all peple. Nothing else can be focused on until that's taken care of.
Tina *:
That ended that!! Well said!! :)
Chante' *:
Lol.
That guy got owned....
Chante' *:
The officer was supposed to shoot them cause thats disrespectful to a dead guy, but man the marines got it tough.
Its a good thing my history teachers all taught me that war is peace xD
Charles *:
There does not have to be a war for our military to protect our freedoms, and when I say OUR freedoms, I include the majority of the rest of the worlds. Case in point, Iran ha threatend to close the Straight of Hormuz causing fuel prices to go up in recent weeks. The US military protects our right to buy and recieve goods from all around the world as well as ship our good to others. Somehow I dont have a problem with soldiers pissing on someone whe moments before was trying to kill them, hell, if it was me I would have taken a dump on them to boot. I know there are rules agreed apon and that dessicration of the dead is against those rules. Grady, you call us arrogant while you have the freedom to put gas and oil from the middle east into your car that was built in Japan or where ever it was built. The military protects those freedoms for everyone around the world, we put our lives on the line so that the bell of freedom can be heard around the world.
Lisa *:
With all due respect Al Qaeda is going to continue to operate come hell or high water and it will get worse reason being the Muslims are on a mission of conquering the world and forcing everyone to worship their 'allah' as well as to have everyone live under Sharia Law. It's in their Quran and anyone can read it and see for themselves. All I can say is just as others have said, you don't know what these service men have had to deal with and have seen while they are there fighting in this war and the Taliban/Muslims are beyond cruel and have been for centuries. They were barbaric from the beginning and continue to be. You can read about their ways on the net. They're very cruel to Christians as well as their own people. Wasn't it in the 70's, maybe the late 70's when they took over that cruise ship and pinpointed the only man that was in a wheel chair, an elderly man I think and tossed him overboard into the ocean right in front of his wife and everyone else. Why did they pick the least likely person to give them any trouble to kill? He was no threat to them. Look at what they did to Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg and others with cutting their heads off and posting that on You Tube. They've cut the heads off of little Christian girls all because they attended a Christian school. So again, no one knows just what these guys have had to deal with while being there. I personally don't condone it but I'm not in the mind set that these men or anyone having to deal with the Taliban are. Concerning Sadam, there were weapons that were discovered buried deep beneath the sand. He kept saying he didn't have any but yet was very defiant with letting the proper authorities in to do their job with confirming it. It was after the fact that the weapons were found.
Dan *:
Gravy is just a douche bag !!
Cindy *:
But he does have the "freedom" to speak; which if he knows his history enough, that freedom was won by war.
And Grady, ignorance is speaking on a topic of which you have no education. Educate yourself before you make another ass of yourself.
Matt *:
God Bless America. God Bless our troops! Our servicemen and women deserve nothing but our respect and gratitude for what they do and in the conditions they have to do it in. If it weren't for them, past AND present, morons would be imprisoned, or maybe even beheaded, for speaking nonsense!
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END OF FACEBOOK THREAD
Discussion can carry on below. Thoughts? :icon_twisted:
I'll reiterate Y's question to start discussion. Why do Americans love our lies?
The dialogue on that Facebook thread is scary from an intellectual standpoint.
I am going to lay low for a bit on this one.
I have personal bias that I have to think through, which will tend to evoke an emotional response. (Because of the years, no decades, of social conditioning and propaganda.)
Understood.
I don't think anyone in the country disses the military, nor the service men and women (unless they're a REAL fringe). I don't and never will. I'm just pointing out the obvious falsehoods that some of those posters stated on that thread, and how those relate to Y's topic.
What I saw was a chance for a real discussion devolve into the usual lack of intelligent discourse we see on forums, along with a few lies tossed in for good measure.
On one hand I can see the frustration of our service personnel in dealing with an enemy that is indistinguishable from any other indigent in a foreign country. As an American citizen watching other human beings being beheaded by the opposition, I can understand the frustrations.
However, I can see no reason why anyone, including active military personnel, would attempt to justify the actions of the men in this case. (Short of a JAG lawyer whose job it is to do so). Any honorable member of the military would blanch at the thought of defending what happened. It goes against the UCMJ, and it certainly isn't something a human being would do under normal circumstances or find acceptable. It just is not normal human behavior.
Could it be explained as a symptom of the result of the prolonged exposure to life safety conditions under which our military personnel are forced to operate present day? Perhaps.
The documented atrocities committed by Nam personnel, especially demonstrate this.
Quote from: Palehorse on January 15, 2012, 11:27:10 AM
On one hand I can see the frustration of our service personnel in dealing with an enemy that is indistinguishable from any other indigent in a foreign country. As an American citizen watching other human beings being beheaded by the opposition, I can understand the frustrations.
However, I can see no reason why anyone, including active military personnel, would attempt to justify the actions of the men in this case. (Short of a JAG lawyer whose job it is to do so). Any honorable member of the military would blanch at the thought of defending what happened. It goes against the UCMJ, and it certainly isn't something a human being would do under normal circumstances or find acceptable. It just is not normal human behavior.
Could it be explained as a symptom of the result of the prolonged exposure to life safety conditions under which our military personnel are forced to operate present day? Perhaps.
The documented atrocities committed by Nam personnel, especially demonstrate this.
The leadership of our military, as well as the military personnel themselves, have an incumbent responsibility to take the high road in all situations; whether our presence there is justified or not.
Now, surrounding that justification, I am not in agreement with the reasons provided for going into Iraq; and Afghanistan is our own fault since we went in, left, then returned. And even our presence there is at best questionable.
All the saber rattling being done by the individuals within the topic you posted, is a direct result of the ongoing propaganda initiatives this country has undertaken in order to elicit support and pride, (however false it may be), from its citizens. All in an effort to do nothing more than justify expending trillions to protect our perceived self-interests to a supply of oil; to which this country is addicted.
The morality argument that is often utilized in "justifying" our invasion of Iraq is nothing more than fruit from the poison tree. Our initial justifications for the invasion were completely false, and I speculate in saying that in all likelihood the human rights violations discovered post invasion were probably well known fact within the intelligence community and targeted for use as "saving face" propaganda if the initiative failed in validation of the reasons used in invading in the first place.
We knew SH had abused the citizens of the country he was leading, and did nothing despite that knowledge. In fact, this country and the world would have been far better served had we used that knowledge to expose him within the global diplomatic structure instead of creating fractured fairy tales.
So yes indeed, this thread clearly demonstrates the addiction to lies that this country was not only founded upon, but continues to utilize in order to elicit support.
As I surmise, you guys are talking about our troops pissing on the the enemy miserable bodies. The bastards can kill us, kill innocent people, chop heads off and all many many dastardly things in the name of Allah and we have to treat them with respect. Bullshit! :groan:
If we can kill the bastards we can piss on the son of bitches. I am so sick of the cry babies :cry: crying about killing the enemy and these bastards are our enemy. I wish they would let our boys collect their ears and give the men $100 for each ear. Good riddance.
Black Jack Pershing rid the Phillippines of Islamic extremism by executing Muslim terrorist and burying them with pigs blood and entrails. I personally would like to see it done now in Afghanistan. :salute: I wonder if they could get the 72 virgins with pigs blood all over them. :thumbsup: :biggrin: Let's kill all of the bastard Muslims and get this damn war over and let our people come home. :flag:
Quote from: The Troll on January 15, 2012, 12:47:58 PM
As I surmise, you guys are talking about our troops pissing on the the enemy miserable bodies. The bastards can kill us, kill innocent people, chop heads off and all many many dastardly things in the name of Allah and we have to treat them with respect. Bullshit! :groan:
If we can kill the bastards we can piss on the son of bitches. I am so sick of the cry babies :cry: crying about killing the enemy and these bastards are our enemy. I wish they would let our boys collect their ears and give the men $100 for each ear. Good riddance.
Black Jack Pershing rid the Phillippines of Islamic extremism by executing Muslim terrorist and burying them with pigs blood and entrails. I personally would like to see it done now in Afghanistan. :salute: I wonder if they could get the 72 virgins with pigs blood all over them. :thumbsup: :biggrin: Let's kill all of the bastard Muslims and get this damn war over and let our people come home. :flag:
Didn't your momma ever ay to you, "Two wrongs do not make a right" ?
That premise still holds true today. Again I will say our military leaders and personnel have an incumbent responsibility to take the high road in all situations. :yes: :kneel:
Quote from: Palehorse on January 15, 2012, 12:57:24 PM
Didn't your momma ever ay to you, "Two wrongs do not make a right" ?
That premise still holds true today. Again I will say our military leaders and personnel have an incumbent responsibility to take the high road in all situations. :yes: :kneel:
So you are saying that Black Jack Pershing who won his war in the Phillippines was wrong. It takes evil to defeat evil and the Taliban are evil in everything they do to people in the name of God. Let us pray. :pray:
Quote from: The Troll on January 15, 2012, 01:23:18 PM
So you are saying that Black Jack Pershing who won his war in the Phillippines was wrong. It takes evil to defeat evil and the Taliban are evil in everything they do to people in the name of God. Let us pray. :pray:
What I am saying is that the road to balance is not to be paved with human atrocities, that doing what others have done unto you is just as wrong as the original act. In fact it is more so.
Aren't you one who throws about the Golden Rule here a lot of the time?
Winning a war by acts that violate common rules of civility and boarder on human rights violations, and sometimes outright violations of them, is not a complete victory; for while you may win the war you lose the moral victory and leave the battlefield strewn with broken relationships.
Quote from: Palehorse on January 15, 2012, 01:28:45 PM
What I am saying is that the road to balance is not to be paved with human atrocities, that doing what others have done unto you is just as wrong as the original act. In fact it is more so.
Aren't you one who throws about the Golden Rule here a lot of the time?
Winning a war by acts that violate common rules of civility and boarder on human rights violations, and sometimes outright violations of them, is not a complete victory; for while you may win the war you lose the moral victory and leave the battlefield strewn with broken relationships.
Poo, poo, poo. War is hell and second place finish is not for me. As far as the golden rule, sure I like it. But since I don't believing in turning the other cheeks. You hurt my people, do evil things to my people. I will do the same thing too you and some more. Because I am going to win over the evil you do too me.
It's plain fact and simple. Do un to me and mine as you would want me to do to you. Those soldiers are mine. As Achman (Jeff Dunham's) the suicide bomber says, "I kill you". :biggrin:
Who in hell says war is civil and who says that war will ever be civil and fair. If you play fair in air combat you will be a dead pilot. The secret of an Ace pilot is sneak up behind the bastard and kill him, shoot him down. :salute: To all of the fighter pilots. :flag:
I saw a news article on the topic that stated that the Taliban had decried the act as barbaric. I found that WAY beyond ironic given the absolute brutality they engage in on a daily basis.
Quote from: The Troll on January 15, 2012, 02:10:25 PM
Poo, poo, poo. War is hell and second place finish is not for me. As far as the golden rule, sure I like it. But since I don't believing in turning the other cheeks. You hurt my people, do evil things to my people. I will do the same thing too you and some more. Because I am going to win over the evil you do too me.
It's plain fact and simple. Do un to me and mine as you would want me to do to you. Those soldiers are mine. As Achman (Jeff Dunham's) the suicide bomber says, "I kill you". :biggrin:
Who in hell says war is civil and who says that war will ever be civil and fair. If you play fair in air combat you will be a dead pilot. The secret of an Ace pilot is sneak up behind the bastard and kill him, shoot him down. :salute: To all of the fighter pilots. :flag:
Clearly some portions of humanity have not evolved much beyond neanderthal thinking.
Things happen in the heat of battle, and prolonged exposure to such conditions evoke primitive survival thought processes.
While making a cognitive decision under such duress may be questionable for the average individual, military leadership are trained to do so, and failed miserably in the case in question here, in my opinion.
Unless we properly lead in a manner that punishes the unacceptable, then we are destined to seeing the long term results become individuals who do such things within civilized society instead of war.
The line must be drawn and enforced, lest we loose a bastion of sociopathic individuals upon our country when these men and women come home. For example:
If urinating on the body of a dead combatant is deemed acceptable during war, then when the men/women performing such practices come home, and get into a bar room brawl that they win by knocking out their opponent, and subsequently urinate on them, they will be in for a plethora of legal charges being placed against them; including use of biological substances.
Then some sectors of society will seek to "give them a pass" based upon the fact they "fought for our country", which in the mind of the sociopath equates to approval of the behaviors. And the cycle will continue until the former military member is incarcerated for acts much worse, which are deemed illegal in a civilized society, but learned within acts of war.
Quote from: Locutus on January 15, 2012, 02:24:23 PM
I saw a news article on the topic that stated that the Taliban had decried the act as barbaric. I found that WAY beyond ironic given the absolute brutality they engage in on a daily basis.
I saw the same article yesterday, and my initial reaction was the same; however once I considered the source I dismissed it.
Here are my 2 cents....
I am NOT going to condone it or say it was the right thing to do....but, If I have to pick sides, I am picking my boys over THEIR boys.
I think it was a shame that it was video taped and became an issue. I would rather NOT know that this ever happened. The weasle who released the tape is the one who should have his butt kicked.
Our men and women CHOSE to serve, they volunteered to protect our country. I have nothing but respect for them...and perhaps they need to have the benefit of doubt, since WE were not there and have any understanding of what led up to that event.
No, it does NOT mean they can come home and do this act, and expect to not be punished...I agree with PH, we should always take the high road.
Just a hypothetical, but what IF, those very taliban that was pissed on, where the actual men who cut off Nick Bergs head? Would that change the attitude?
Actually, I wasn't really trying to elicit responses to the actual pictures themselves, as I was to the commentary on the Facebook thread as it related to Y's thread on Americans loving their lies. I was specifically speaking to Grady's posts, and how he was attacked, demeaned, and belittled for basically saying nothing but the truth.
I crossed swords with him on CNHI's Hey Martha forums, because he espoused several conservative/religious views that I didn't agree with. However, after reading what he posted on that thread, he really was speaking nothing but the truth and was attacked for it. He even said he didn't care about the soldiers urinating on the dead Taliban and still was subjected to an onslaught of attacks from the others.
Go back and read what he said on the first one or two pages of this thread, and observe what happened to him.
No doubt in my mind that a large sector of America's citizens are so puffed up with the propaganda induce pride, that they will blindly lash out at anyone who dares to present a position that may cast the whole condition within the brighter light of truth.
It's the same as the religious zealousness exhibited by many. . .
Quote from: Locutus on January 16, 2012, 11:54:51 AM
Actually, I wasn't really trying to elicit responses to the actual pictures themselves, as I was to the commentary on the Facebook thread as it related to Y's thread on Americans loving their lies. I was specifically speaking to Grady's posts, and how he was attacked, demeaned, and belittled for basically saying nothing but the truth...
There has been this inane American myth ( read: lie ) created that people buy into and gawd help anyone that speaks facts to that lie.
The Great American Lie was created to suck people into the unconstitutional, imperialistic, militaristic actions our country has been, and is STILL, engaged in.
People buy into it because if they don't, they have to admit to themselves that they and their families are mere cannon fodder for the puppetmasters we've put in power and allow to control the strings.
Anyone pointing out the contrary truth to the lie creates cognitive dissonance in the true believers who then vehemently lash out to protect themselves from disturbing conflicts within. It's practically a no win situation for truth. The more truth presented, the more aggressive and violent the true believers become. The truth then becomes the 'other' whom must be destroyed at all costs.
The Great American Lie also works to create the fictional 'other' for groups of peoples upon whom the puppetmasters wish to focus their militaristic attention. All one has to do is to peruse our history to see it at work against the indigenous peoples of this country, to the Germans and the Japanese, and now down to Muslims, regardless if they ascribe to the RW religious beliefs of the Wahabbists and Jihadists or not.
This country will not improve until people learn to stop being manipulated by propaganda like the Great American Lie.
Quote from: Y on January 20, 2012, 10:26:18 AM
This country will not improve until people learn to stop being manipulated by propaganda like the Great American Lie.
Then you probably agree with what I stated in my quote in my signature line.
"One of the gravest dangers to the survival of our republic is an ignorant electorate routinely feeding at the trough of propaganda." -- Locutus
:wink:
:yes:
Like history books just quoting Patrick Henry's "Give me liberty or give me death."
And leaving off the whole quote: "An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
^^ Negative. My quote is my quote. I said that without any surrounding context. :razz:
An since we're now talking about quotes, here's one that speaks to what happened to Grady in those Facebook posts:
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell