http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130191248&sc=fb&cc=fp
QuoteThe Pew Forum on Religious Religion and Public Life released a survey on religious knowledge today. Atheists and Agnostics scored higher on it than anyone else, closely followed by Jews and Mormons, all Christians, Protestants and Catholics, were far behind.
That's overall, but when you get into specific religions it does show a startling lack of basic knowledge by practitioners. From the report:
More than four-in-ten Catholics in the United States (45%) do not know that their church teaches that the bread and wine used in Communion do not merely symbolize but actually become the body and blood of Christ. About half of Protestants (53%) cannot correctly identify Martin Luther as the person whose writings and actions inspired the Protestant Reformation, which made their religion a separate branch of Christianity. Roughly four-in-ten Jews (43%) do not recognize that Maimonides, one of the most venerated rabbis in history, was Jewish.
The study also showed that Americans have a fairly poor understanding of religions other than their own. Only about half of the people surveyed know that Martin Luther inspired the Reformation, the Dalai Lama is Buddhist, and Joseph Smith was a Mormon.
Why are Atheists and Agnostics better informed? The Los Angeles Times quotes one of the researchers who has a theory:
American atheists and agnostics tend to be people who grew up in a religious tradition and consciously gave it up, often after a great deal of reflection and study, said Alan Cooperman, associate director for research at the Pew Forum.
"These are people who thought a lot about religion," he said. "They're not indifferent. They care about it."
Also interesting is that Black Protestants and Latino Catholics scored at the bottom of the survey.
Results that I dare say are mirrored right here within this very forum! :biggrin:
Oh PH, I see it time and time again.
Indeed! Ignorance is rampant in the world today!
Hey, it was a really hard test! I got all the ones about Christianity and Islam but one. It was some of the questions on Hindu, Buddhism and something called Taoism I mostly got wrong. My score was 80%. If you haven't seen the test questions, don't rush to a conclusion because it was not easy at all.
http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/index.php
I got 'em ALL RIGHT! But then I had Santa, the leprechauns, and Pele (the goddess, not the soccer player) helping. And I took comparative religions in college -- which was where Coyote and I discovered peyote.
I did not get them all right, but I did score a 90%, which is vastly better than most of America! :biggrin:
I'm proud of myself. I got over 80% and blew over an easy one. They said, that only 13% of the people who score over me.
I do believe that Atheist and Agnostics (people who are Atheist, but afraid that God will hear them say it) are smarter that the Religious are more ignorant than the later. It's because they have lived in a Religious World and never have reached out and read what is wrong with religion and blind faith. They are afraid of the unknown and act like it. Stupid.
It's just a facet of what I term the eternal struggle; religion fears science and education because both provide the means to teach humanity to think critically. Once one learns this it is simply a matter of doing a little personal research in order to understand the relationships between conflict and religion, and the true foundational goals all religions pursue; wealth and power. It has not changed in millenniums!
Bingo!! I agree.
BTW, I got all 15 correct. :razz: ;D
Number 1, it's the money, Number 2, it's the power.
Just to name a few, Jerry Farwell, dead. Pat Robertson, trained lawyer. Joel Osteen, Terry Randell, James Dodson, Tony Perkins, Jimmy Swaggert and many many more.
Just check their pay checks, their and their wife's clothes. Check their houses, their cars, boats and the very expensive air planes. Now let me tell you, these boys know how to live and play and their toys are very expensive. And how do they get it from, tax free donations from the Sheeple trying to buy theirselves a place in heaven from this bunch of crooks.
Quote from: The Troll on September 29, 2010, 02:56:08 PM
Number 1, it's the money, Number 2, it's the power.
Just to name a few, Jerry Farwell, dead. Pat Robertson, trained lawyer. Joel Osteen, Terry Randell, James Dodson, Tony Perkins, Jimmy Swaggert and many many more.
Just check their pay checks, their and their wife's clothes. Check their houses, their cars, boats and the very expensive air planes. Now let me tell you, these boys know how to live and play and their toys are very expensive. And how do they get it from, tax free donations from the Sheeple trying to buy theirselves a place in heaven from this bunch of crooks.
I am a Christian but do not believe in the prosperity gospel that those you listed preach. It was before my time but I don't think Jesus was particularly wealthy either and obviously his life was filled with torment. I do not believe those who preach that a person will attain "financial freedom" as a result of accepting Christ as their savior. I do not believe that a Christian's life will become filled with worldly pleasures as a result of accepting Jesus. What about the Christians that the Romans fed to the lions, I doubt they would say that their lives were pleasant. The reason I chose to accept Christ as my savior was because of what happens after death, not for worldly treasure while I am alive. I am a sinner who would be doomed eternally to the fiery abyss of Hell if not for the redeeming blood of Christ. I do not think many people who are led to Christ by the charlatans who give false promises of wealth and a better worldly life remain true to the Spirit of God because they were lied to by these so called "great" ministers and converted on false premises.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on September 30, 2010, 10:25:45 AM
I am a Christian but do not believe in the prosperity gospel that those you listed preach. It was before my time but I don't think Jesus was particularly wealthy either and obviously his life was filled with torment. I do not believe those who preach that a person will attain "financial freedom" as a result of accepting Christ as their savior. I do not believe that a Christian's life will become filled with worldly pleasures as a result of accepting Jesus. What about the Christians that the Romans fed to the lions, I doubt they would say that their lives were pleasant. The reason I chose to accept Christ as my savior was because of what happens after death, not for worldly treasure while I am alive. I am a sinner who would be doomed eternally to the fiery abyss of Hell if not for the redeeming blood of Christ. I do not think many people who are led to Christ by the charlatans who give false promises of wealth and a better worldly life remain true to the Spirit of God because they were lied to by these so called "great" ministers and converted on false premises.
What about the other 75% of the people on earth that are not Christians, who don't believe in Christ or has never meet the missionaries of Christ. Are they all doomed to hell, I think not. Because God does not exist.
But if that make Christians happy let them think it. Just leave the rest of up out of it.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on September 30, 2010, 10:25:45 AM
The reason I chose to accept Christ as my savior was because of what happens after death, not for worldly treasure while I am alive. I am a sinner who would be doomed eternally to the fiery abyss of Hell if not for the redeeming blood of Christ.
No one knows what happens after death, Lester. But many of us understand the concept of forgiveness. I have long believed that the only real "sin" is doing intentional harm, either to myself or another. Therefore, Forgiveness is an important
motif for me, as it provides the only method of expiating sin. The forgiveness I seek does not come from any god, however, but from those I have injured, at times including myself.
This is why I have some trouble with the christian get-out-of-jail free dogma. It seems to tell me that I can do any foul, ugly thing I like, so long as I repent before I die, and god forgives me. Nothing any of us can do will ever hurt any god. For forgiveness to have meaning for me, it must come from those I have injured. And better yet, I must live so as to not injure others -- or myself.
I find the idea of a vengeful god to be ludicrous. If this being is really a god, and I piss it off, it could squash me like a bug, and forget about me. If you believe in a vengeful god who is also loving, you're imagining your god as an all-about-me teenager. An all-loving god is nothing more than a devoted mother, who forgives -- or refuses to believe -- every fault.
However, any one of them (or none of them) may be a real god. So, following the insurance-policy doctrine of belief, I invite all of them to the semi-weekly prayer breakfast at my house. One caveat. It is always BYOA. (Bring Your Own Altar)
Yes, we know what happens after death. It the same thing that happen to all life when it dies. It becomes part of the earth. Which will become part of the Sun which will in billions of years become part of a cold dark Universe. What so bad about that. I did get to live and take part in the actions of the Universe.
I just wish people would set down and think of just one thing. The Garden of Eden. Why would God make two perfect people, put them in a perfect place.
Then put in a apple tree and tell them not to eat from it, then put in a snake in it, who talked his people into eating the apple. I think God played the snake.
For this he cast his two people out into the cold cruel world with a curse on them and all of the children and their children. Forever.
Only to come back as Christ to die on the cross for their sins, that they would not have committed, if he had not set them up. With the tree and the snake. Go figure. It's all bullshit.
Shall we :pray: :preach: :pope: Somebody say Amen. Hey, pass the pot, put something in the pot boy. Oh my God do we need the money. Need money for my jet so I can spread the Good Word of Christ and God. Amen. Oh my God I forgot the Holy Ghost :ghost:
Quote from: LOsborne on September 28, 2010, 09:16:48 PM
http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/index.php
I got 'em ALL RIGHT! But then I had Santa, the leprechauns, and Pele (the goddess, not the soccer player) helping. And I took comparative religions in college -- which was where Coyote and I discovered peyote.
The test I took had 32 questions. It has the same questions as the one your link goes too and more.
I missed one.
Lester, please provide the link to the 32-question survey. I'm feeling lucky.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 04, 2010, 07:27:51 PM
Lester, please provide the link to the 32-question survey. I'm feeling lucky.
The link no longer works. But if you are a genius you can pick them out of appendix B of the original report.
"The full wording of all questions and topline survey results are provided in Appendix B. "
http://pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Belief_and_Practices/religious-knowledge-topline.pdf (http://pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Belief_and_Practices/religious-knowledge-topline.pdf)
One question I recall was "Who wrote the novel Moby Dick".
Okay, I found, and knew the correct answer to, thirty (counting multi-part questions as multiple questions.) I didn't find any that I didn't know. Maybe I miscounted, or thought a couple of the religious questions were statistical control questions.
I know who wrote Moby Dick but I didn't count that question in my tally.
As far as folks being so ignorant of religion, there are some pretty dumb folks out there. Like the woman who was upset to learn that the Crunchberries in Cap'n Crunch are not real fruit. I thought it was very interesting to learn the litigant Janine Sugawara was an atheist. Using the powers of logic, which I read about in a Sherlock Holmes book, I can deduce that atheists know a lot more about religion than they do breakfast cereals containing brightly colored balls. Note that she was a "serial litigant", I assume that was a misspelling.
On May 21, 2009 Judge Morrison England, Jr. of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of California dismissed a complaint filed by serial litigant Janine Sugawara who said she had purchased "Cap'n Crunch with Crunchberries" because she believed "crunchberries" were real fruit. Sugawara alleged that after four years of purchasing the product she had only recently discovered to her dismay that said "berries" were in fact simply brightly-colored cereal balls. The judge commented "In this case,... it is simply impossible for Plaintiff to file an amended complaint stating a claim based upon these facts. The survival of the instant claim would require this Court to ignore all concepts of personal responsibility and common sense. The Court has no intention of allowing that to happen."
Hmmmm.... something about this complaint is reminiscent of the ground-breaking Hamilton v Prewett litigation. How did you discover Ms. Sugawara is atheist?
Lester, you are awfully well-read for someone who lives in a cave.
Yep. Ah thinks Lester is one a them there faker-outer, "aw-shucks" kinda boys whut acts like he ain't seen a book, but actually's been to Harvard Law Skool -- 'er sum wheres like that.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 05, 2010, 07:41:59 AM
Hmmmm.... something about this complaint is reminiscent of the ground-breaking Hamilton v Prewett litigation. How did you discover Ms. Sugawara is atheist?
Lester, you are awfully well-read for someone who lives in a cave.
I have quite a library after Rufus Taylor stole the Martin County Bookmobile and threw out all them books to make room for his still. Took me darn near four nights to pack them books back to the homestead.
Somewhere I read where Sugawara said she could no longer believe in God because after the shocking revelation that crunchberries were actually man made, she had doubts that the Bible was the true word of God and thought that it was probably man made too. According to Sugawara the perfect qualities of these tasty spheres led her to believe only a perfect all knowing deity could create such absolute edible perfection of color, shape, taste, and texture as found in the Capt'n Crunch Crunchberries. When she discovered they were actually made by Quaker Oats, Sugawara was left psychologically devastated and suffered a mental breakdown because she always thought Quakers were deeply religious people whom she trusted to provide her with a breakfast cereal that not only tasted good, but was nutritional as well. No where on the box of Capt'n Crunch does the company acknowledge that Crunchberries are man made.
Mr. Foller the Wolf, I don't know how much you know about us Bigfoots but we aren't usually welcome in public schools. For the most part we are all home schooled except for my Uncle Wyndham who performed a full body shave for 6 years till he graduated from 6th grade.
You know, in case followsthewolf asks me a technical or historical question about Capt'n Crunch, I thought I would check out the the website which can be found here:
http://www.capncrunch.com/ (http://www.capncrunch.com/)
Imagine my shock when I saw the picture of a small child, dressed as Rambo holding a broomstick as a makeshift rifle, with a wide smile on his face as he guns down his imaginary foes. The father is standing next to the poor kid instructing the child on the proper technique to throw a hand grenade using a hair brush as a visual aid. If you are observant, you can see the father has just pulled the imaginary pin on the grenade with his teeth and is ready to lob it. You would think the mother, standing in the background would be appalled at her husband teaching such violent things to her small son but she appears to be cheering them on. I cannot be sure but I believe I see someone, likely a Homeland Security Officer, looking in the family's window too. Is it no wonder that humans are about to make themselves extinct? More power to them, but please don't destroy the peaceful Bigfoot's habitat.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 05, 2010, 05:52:37 PM
You know, in case followsthewolf asks me a technical or historical question about Capt'n Crunch, I thought I would check out the the website which can be found here:
http://www.capncrunch.com/ (http://www.capncrunch.com/)
Imagine my shock when I saw the picture of a small child, dressed as Rambo holding a broomstick as a makeshift rifle, with a wide smile on his face as he guns down his imaginary foes. The father is standing next to the poor kid instructing the child on the proper technique to throw a hand grenade using a hair brush as a visual aid. If you are observant, you can see the father has just pulled the imaginary pin on the grenade with his teeth and is ready to lob it. You would think the mother, standing in the background would be appalled at her husband teaching such violent things to her small son but she appears to be cheering them on. I cannot be sure but I believe I see someone, likely a Homeland Security Officer, looking in the family's window too. Is it no wonder that humans are about to make themselves extinct? More power to them, but please don't destroy the peaceful Bigfoot's habitat.
Oh, give me a break. What are we doing, raising a bunch of sissies and pussies who don't know how to fight or defend themselves.
I don't know old you are, but hell when I was a kid we played cowboy and Indian, American soldier and Japs. We live a long time in this country, good time with making girls out of our boys.
Quote from: The Troll on October 05, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
Oh, give me a break. What are we doing, raising a bunch of sissies and pussies who don't know how to fight or defend themselves.
I don't know old you are, but hell when I was a kid we played cowboy and Indian, American soldier and Japs. We live a long time in this country, good time with making girls out of our boys.
WHOOOOSH!! As the point once again streaks over ol' Troll's noggin and heads for the stratosphere.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 05, 2010, 07:11:31 PM
WHOOOOSH!! As the point once again streaks over ol' Troll's noggin and heads for the stratosphere.
WHOOOOSH, :finger01: If you want to write fiction, write it somewhere else. :wall:
Quote from: The Troll on October 05, 2010, 07:16:15 PM
WHOOOOSH, :finger01: If you want to write fiction, write it somewhere else. :wall:
No, thank you. A tale well told has its own virtue. Your approval is not needed.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 05, 2010, 07:28:56 PM
No, thank you. A tale well told has its own virtue. Your approval is not needed.
:finger01: :finger2: HR person. In my past experiences with HR people, I have found them all are anal retentive. That is what I have found in all of your correspondence to me. Always cutting my ass. :azz: :kiss: :trustme: :kiss:
Once again you have sunk to the personal attack, having no logical arrows in your quiver, Troll.
Just for shiggles, why don't you explain to us all exactly what was the point of Lester's amusing parody. Here's a hint. It wasn't gun control.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 06, 2010, 08:28:34 AM
Once again you have sunk to the personal attack, having no logical arrows in your quiver, Troll.
Just for shiggles, why don't you explain to us all exactly what was the point of Lester's amusing parody. Here's a hint. It wasn't gun control.
That one thing I like about living in America and not working for your company. I don't have to explain a damn thing to you. I may have arrows and a quiver to carry them around in, but I don't beat the hell out of people with the company rule book. Which HR people use as effective as a gun, knife or a bow and arrow. Human Resources is a con game used on the employees to make them think they have someone on their side. Not so. :seeya2:
Bullshit :smile:
Quote from: The Troll on October 06, 2010, 09:29:22 AM
Human Resources is a con game used on the employees to make them think they have someone on their side. Not so. :seeya2:
Gee Troll, we have more in common that I thought. I feel the same way about unions.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 06, 2010, 09:51:14 AM
Gee Troll, we have more in common that I thought. I feel the same way about unions.
In making that statement, I can tell you have never have been a union member. I for one think, if you don't know how something works, people should keep their mouths shut. Nothing shows a persons ignorance faster than someone talking about something he or she knows nothing about. I know something about Human Resources and how they treat people. Especially Lowes HR service. It's a joke. Ask anyone who works at Lowes and Walmart.
The Troll, a happy and devoted UAW union worker for 38 years and I love everyday of my retirement pay for what they did for me. Thanks UAW and thanks Ford Motor Company. :kiss: :kiss: :love:
Troll, don't beat up on yourself for not knowing what you are talking about. You would have no way of knowing that I was once a card carrying member of the UAW too. Local 823 to be exact. I welded the optional rear seat for the Ford Bronco, the handle for the Bronco swing-away tire carrier (also an optional feature) and Chrysler bucket seats around the same time you started I guess. I had just turned18 when I started, how old were you?
:pop:
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 06, 2010, 04:17:40 PM
Troll, don't beat up on yourself for not knowing what you are talking about. You would have no way of knowing that I was once a card carrying member of the UAW too. Local 823 to be exact. I welded the optional rear seat for the Ford Bronco, the handle for the Bronco swing-away tire carrier (also an optional feature) and Chrysler bucket seats around the same time you started I guess. I had just turned18 when I started, how old were you?
What did you do quit, get fired, get laid off. You surly didn't retire from the company. If you didn't do any of these and you did retire with a company and union pension. What in hell are bitching about. Hummmmmmmmmmmm?
It sound like a little sour grapes to me. I was 21. Started by unloading the assembly line. Got a union industrial pipefitter/ plumber apprenticeship and spent 38 years with Ford Motor Co. in Indianapolis.
What happen to your job? Out sourced over seas or to Mexico or Canada. My plant was. It is hard to believe that at one time the Indianapolis steering gear plant made all of the steering gears for of Ford brand cars and trucks and employed over 4500 men and women. All gone and out sourced. God bless the Republicans.
They laid everyone off, shut down, changed name, and opened back up. They had done it once before and had done it again since, I think they are out of business now unless you want to relocate south of the border. Anyone hired back lost their seniority. By the time they called me I was on a drill crew drilling oil wells.
Did you ever use a shaper Troll? When I was a machinist they were on the way out. It was one of my favorite machine tools.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 06, 2010, 05:11:29 PM
Did you ever use a shaper Troll? When I was a machinist they were on the way out. It was one of my favorite machine tools.
I was not trained a a machinist, but use some tools to rebuild pumps, pump shafts, pump couplings, valves and many other items. I had to use one once to make a spacer for a old old pump. The shaper we had in the rehab crib, we rebuilt old machines from the ground up, this shaper was a old one. It came down from Detroit. They said, Ford had at one time used it to build Model T.
But oh my god what big blue hot chips it would make. You sure didn't want to get one down your shirt collar, I know, you could smell the burnt flesh and it burnt itself into my chest. Why do you ask.
Quote from: The Troll on October 06, 2010, 06:29:26 PM
But oh my god what big blue hot chips it would make. You sure didn't want to get one down your shirt collar, I know, you could smell the burnt flesh and it burnt itself into my chest. Why do you ask.
Because only a true old timer would know what a shaper was. Yeah those hot chips were nasty. Other than a broach, I don't know of another machine tool that will cut an internal keyway. Now days most all the machine tools are made in China. Bridgeport clones were just being imported hot and heavy when I left the field. Unlike American made Bridgeports mills that had aged castings, those Chinese jobs with their green bases would ring like a bell when taking a heavy cut. I really don't think the Chinese are very good at inventing things but they can sure copy other people's stuff good. At least they look just the same but are made with cheap materials.
Quote from: The Troll on October 06, 2010, 03:27:48 PM
Nothing shows a persons ignorance faster than someone talking about something he or she knows nothing about.
uh-huh, like launching into a revisionist sermon supporting gender bias and violent fantasies in response to an absolutely hysterical distortion of the poster for a Quaker (Quaker's are pacifists, in case you didn't even get that reference) Oats product. Seriously, Troll, most times you look better if you just nod at the winners as they bounce past.
That and practice ehat you preach Troll. If you knew anything about HR, then you'd know how they save managers AND unions from themselves to protect the employees and the organization....
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on October 06, 2010, 07:15:09 PM
That and practice ehat you preach Troll. If you knew anything about HR, then you'd know how they save managers AND unions from themselves to protect the employees and the organization....
Then why, on the web that you HR people are so little thought of. Just goggle in "people who hate Lowes and also Walmart have such a low opion of you people.
I have friends who worked for Lowes and Walmart and they say the HR people are the lazy bunch of assholes they ever seen. Set in their office doing nothing and if you ask them for something, even if it an easy one, the answer is no, no, no and then they get out the rule book and show you that it says no. Come around and tell you every day, you must work harder, because they got their eye on you.
Is just like being a member of a company owned union. It's always about the company never about the employee. One person at Lowes said you guys favorate word is NO, NO, NO, that way you covered your ass. Tell me it not true. I know it is.
Gee, Sandy, I don't work for Lowe's or Wal-Mart. Do you?
I just don't understand how a $12.00-dollar-an-hour unskilled-labor part-timer could fail to grasp the legal complexities of what you and I do everyday to keep them from losing their jobs. snort
We worry about it so they don't have to.
Exactly Lolly!
Quote from: LOsborne on October 06, 2010, 07:47:56 PM
Gee, Sandy, I don't work for Lowe's or Wal-Mart. Do you?
I just don't understand how a $12.00-dollar-an-hour unskilled-labor part-timer could fail to grasp the legal complexities of what you and I do everyday to keep them from losing their jobs. snort
We worry about it so they don't have to.
Who in hell are you trying to bullshit. $12 an hour for unskilled part time worker. Don't believe that in a scab white collar company. You probably pay $7.10 an hour and only let them work 39 hours so you don't have to pay unemployment. That the par with the corporations anymore.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 06, 2010, 07:47:56 PM
Gee, Sandy, I don't work for Lowe's or Wal-Mart. Do you?
I just don't understand how a $12.00-dollar-an-hour unskilled-labor part-timer could fail to grasp the legal complexities of what you and I do everyday to keep them from losing their jobs. snort
We worry about it so they don't have to.
I read a law book or two, if you can understand that legal mumbo jumbo you have my admiration. When I cannot fall asleep I pull out those briefs and before I read a page I am sleeping.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on October 06, 2010, 04:22:13 PM
:pop:
Henry, :biggrin: :pop: watching you been watching the show. I've been waiting :pop: for you to explain Sharron Angle, Meg Wittman and Christine O'Donnell. :biggrin:
Quote from: The Troll on October 06, 2010, 09:39:57 PM
You probably pay $7.10 an hour and only let them work 39 hours so you don't have to pay unemployment.
Oh Sandy, look. The "fighter for the little guy" has no clue where minimum wage stands, what number of hours legally constitute full-time employment, and is ignorant of the fact that part-timers who are laid off can collect unemployment insurance benefits. Now what was that quote of his I used? Oh yes...
QuoteNothing shows a persons ignorance faster than someone talking about something he or she knows nothing about.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 06, 2010, 09:53:27 PM
When I cannot fall asleep I pull out those briefs and before I read a page I am sleeping.
So do I.
Shhhhhh! Don't tell.
Similar to a jailhouse lawyer :biggrin:
Quote from: LOsborne on October 07, 2010, 08:01:52 AM
Oh Sandy, look. The "fighter for the little guy" has no clue where minimum wage stands, what number of hours legally constitute full-time employment, and is ignorant of the fact that part-timers who are laid off can collect unemployment insurance benefits. Now what was that quote of his I used? Oh yes...
So I said $7.10 instead of $7.25 big frigging difference, dumb butt. Also if you live in Indiana where you can be fired for any reason and if you are fired. You can't receive unemployment until you file a complaint and have a hearing and the labor judge make the decision. I know about this big time. Also in Indiana if you don't work 40 hours you have a part time job and can't receive unemployment, if your are laid off or fired. I know about this big time from a year
I had a go around about employment laws because of some dumbass HR women "bless the dumbasses". I have never seen such a bunch of dumbass women Human Resources I dealt with about a year ago. I have yet to meet a good smart HR woman and the ones I am hearing from now sure have a high opinion of themselves. Sure making an ass of themselves trying to prove how smart their are. I have talked to labor lawyers, the state attorney general office the Indiana labor department. They even have a low opinion of HR people.
What the big lie is, you people hide your power to kill a person job, saying I really work for the employee, bullshit. You work for the company and if the higher ups say fire the guy, you fire him and come up with some reason why you did it, then try to clean up the shit you pulled for the company with some off the wall answer.
Next time you're at Lowes look around for some older people to has spent years working for them. If their old their working to supplement their Social Security. They fire people who make to much money or have had a bad run of luck of health insurance. Or look around at Walmart for old long time workers. The company with a 53% turn over in employees. What good HR people they have.
:lipsrsealed2:
Quote from: Palehorse on October 07, 2010, 02:04:37 PM
:lipsrsealed2:
You know the truth, don't you Palehorse? The HR persons and in the big box stores, its the HR women that does the dirty work of firing the companies employees. I think women are more heartless in firing a person, especially a man. Totally heartless.
What does that icon mean Troll. I thought it meant palehorse has a cold sore.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 07, 2010, 06:18:11 PM
What does that icon mean Troll. I thought it meant palehorse has a cold sore.
I sure hope it isn't herpies: :wink: :smile:
So you encounter one or two people that you weren't happy with and choose to negatively generalize an entire occupation and gender? Brilliant! Really, pat yourself on the back, you've cracked the code. :rolleyes:
Seriously? I think your comments are so idiotic and laughable that I'll have to wait until I'm finished LMAO to explain to you that you should buy a clue. ;D
Despite our resident bad-tempered know-it-all's assertions, dismissal does not automatically deny a worker unemployment benefits. To lose benefits, the worker must be fired "for cause." Cause is defined as misconduct, including disregard for the employer's interest, intoxication, the use of illegal drugs, illegal work slowdowns, use of abusive language, absenteeism, and habitual lateness. Even your union cannot get unemployment benefits for you if you are dismissed for misconduct, although many unions have negotiated a "points" system to address habitual absenteeism and tardiness. Nevertheless, "point-out" and you are fired without unemployment benefits, no matter what union you belong to.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Unemployment+Compensation
Whatever the Troll's problem is with Lowe's and Walmart (I am tempted to speculate, but will restrain myself,) I am fairly certain neither retailer employs union workers. Someone close to him must have been dismissed for misconduct, and the Troll cannot bring himself to acknowledge the person did it to himself. He has to find another villain, and he elected the HR department at Lowe's and Walmart.
Here is something to consider though: with the current state of labor law, for the past twenty years it has been impossible to fire someone and deny them unemployment benefits, without the worker knowing it was coming. Step-discipline policies are designed to prevent anyone from breaking policy without knowing they are breaking it. Short of carrying an Uzi to work, or emptying the cash register into your back-pack and being caught on the security camera, a person simply cannot be fired for cause without knowing they had put their job at risk.
So, anybody but me want to hazard a guess about which item on the forbidden list Troll performed? Here's the list again, to make it easier: disregard for the employer's interest, intoxication, the use of illegal drugs, illegal work slowdowns, use of abusive language, absenteeism, and habitual lateness
Also, just to correct a blatant falsehood, full-time in Indiana is anything the employer says it is, up to 40 hours. Labor law says anything over 40 per work week must be paid at time and a half. My company defines full-time as 36 hours per week, and pays overtime after that. I have heard full-time hours as low as 32. The employer also defines how many hours must be worked to earn insurance and paid-time-off benefits. We require 15 hours per week for insurance, and 1800 hours per year for paid vacation.
And if anyone is interested, I am currently hiring in Cairo, IL and Clinton, TN.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on October 07, 2010, 07:09:02 PM
So you encounter one or two people that you weren't happy with and choose to negatively generalize an entire occupation and gender? Brilliant! Really, pat yourself on the back, you've cracked the code. :rolleyes:
Seriously? I think your comments are so idiotic and laughable that I'll have to wait until I'm finished LMAO to explain to you that you should buy a clue. ;D
Sandy, you'll have to forgive Troll. He has probably never held a position of authority over someone else, at least not any one he could terminate. The poor guy said his wife left him, that would leave most any man insecure and with a tendency not to trust women. I think women in power are attractive in a way myself. The quickest way to Bigfoot's heart is an intelligent gal that can keep a cool head under pressure and in you can count on when the shit hits the fan. That's why I like to think of Lolly as my best friend.
You are much more generous than I am Lolly. :thumbsup:
That's interesting info. The organization that I work for considers 36 and above as FT as well. It has also been my experience that HR never causes someone to lose their job, they pretty much take care of that on their own.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 07, 2010, 07:37:43 PM
That's why I like to think of Lolly as my best friend.
Closer than Lorraine?
(blush) Oh, Lester, there is no one like you, darlin'.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 07, 2010, 07:57:49 PM
Closer than Lorraine? (blush) Oh, Lester, there is no one like you, darlin'.
Lorraine and I broke up a while back. She met some guy who said he wrote for a national tow truck magazine and flew the coop. Last I seen of that gal was on back of a moped with its back fender scraping the ground, heading South. She put on a little weight since you seen her, weighed her down at the feed store about 6 months ago to figure out how much wormer she needed. Tipped the scales at 387 in her boots.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 07, 2010, 07:28:06 PM
Despite our resident bad-tempered know-it-all's assertions, dismissal does not automatically deny a worker unemployment benefits. To lose benefits, the worker must be fired "for cause." Cause is defined as misconduct, including disregard for the employer's interest, intoxication, the use of illegal drugs, illegal work slowdowns, use of abusive language, absenteeism, and habitual lateness. Even your union cannot get unemployment benefits for you if you are dismissed for misconduct, although many unions have negotiated a "points" system to address habitual absenteeism and tardiness. Nevertheless, "point-out" and you are fired without unemployment benefits, no matter what union you belong to.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Unemployment+Compensation
Whatever the Troll's problem is with Lowe's and Walmart (I am tempted to speculate, but will restrain myself,) I am fairly certain neither retailer employs union workers. Someone close to him must have been dismissed for misconduct, and the Troll cannot bring himself to acknowledge the person did it to himself. He has to find another villain, and he elected the HR department at Lowe's and Walmart.
Here is something to consider though: with the current state of labor law, for the past twenty years it has been impossible to fire someone and deny them unemployment benefits, without the worker knowing it was coming. Step-discipline policies are designed to prevent anyone from breaking policy without knowing they are breaking it. Short of carrying an Uzi to work, or emptying the cash register into your back-pack and being caught on the security camera, a person simply cannot be fired for cause without knowing they had put their job at risk.
So, anybody but me want to hazard a guess about which item on the forbidden list Troll performed? Here's the list again, to make it easier: disregard for the employer's interest, intoxication, the use of illegal drugs, illegal work slowdowns, use of abusive language, absenteeism, and habitual lateness
Also, just to correct a blatant falsehood, full-time in Indiana is anything the employer says it is, up to 40 hours. Labor law says anything over 40 per work week must be paid at time and a half. My company defines full-time as 36 hours per week, and pays overtime after that. I have heard full-time hours as low as 32. The employer also defines how many hours must be worked to earn insurance and paid-time-off benefits. We require 15 hours per week for insurance, and 1800 hours per year for paid vacation.
And if anyone is interested, I am currently hiring in Cairo, IL and Clinton, TN.
Oh, I'll run out and tell everyone: :rotfl: I sure wouldn't want to work for you. Come on, your surly heard about all of the phony firings of people at the small companies in the last 2 years until the state of Indiana caught on about it. People being set up and out right lies, to fire people and not have to pay unemployment. I heard this from labor lawyers and the state labor board. I am surprised you didn't hear about it or even pull it on some of your employees.
I hear all of your bullshit, it still boils down to what the company wants to do. They can be half civil or assholes. You need to talk to some minimum wage people that have been layed off and couldn't receive unemployment. You Superior attitude toward hourly people really show up when someone calls you on your employee treatment.
No, I couldn't fire anyone and neither could supervision not even the plant manager, fire anyone without a meeting with Ford World Headquarters for salary or the UAW for hourly workers. We didn't have some HR bitch making all of the decisions and get by with it. It sounds like you women can fire a person and the upper management people doesn't give a damn. You people are what caused the union movement. Authoritarian with no conscience or morals in handling the slaves, the uneducated, the untrained and all of the people below you, which is everyone. I sure would love to buy you for what your are worth and sell you for what you think you're worth. My God, I would be a multimillionaire.
But when you are dealing with me, you're dealing with poor white trash with money. Skilled trades worker and a state licenced plumbing contractor for 45 years. I know I could do your job. But you sure as hell couldn't to my job or my work. You have needed to work for assholes like I did and work for some of the asshole public. Not sitting in a :police: guarded office above all of the dirt and mess of life. Ruling like a true Authoritarian. :kiss: Just keep beating you're deadhorse :deadhorse: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: P.S., It's really hard have to deal with a white trash union skilled tradesman and a business man and you can't fire me. :rotfl: :rotfl: And he doesn't give a damn what you say or think. :seeya2:
At Walmart is an employee is caught disseminating union materials I heard they get fired AND banned from all Walmart/Sam's club stores for life. That's what some unions will do for you, get you fired.
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 07, 2010, 09:43:49 PM
At Walmart is an employee is caught disseminating union materials I heard they get fired AND banned from all Walmart/Sam's club stores for life. That's what some unions will do for you, get you fired.
OK Lester, :rolleyes: If that's what your say. :rolleyes: Isn't it wonderful to pratice freedom in America. :rolleyes: But that how unions start. One firing after one firing. Walmart is a great company to work for. :rolleyes: Now be a good little boy and drink a little wine and eat a little bread and go the bed: :sleeping:
Quote from: Lester Sasquatch on October 07, 2010, 07:37:43 PM
Sandy, you'll have to forgive Troll. He has probably never held a position of authority over someone else, at least not any one he could terminate. The poor guy said his wife left him, that would leave most any man insecure and with a tendency not to trust women. I think women in power are attractive in a way myself. The quickest way to Bigfoot's heart is an intelligent gal that can keep a cool head under pressure and in you can count on when the shit hits the fan. That's why I like to think of Lolly as my best friend.
I have, really. It's a bit obvious that his bee-hind is overloading his mouth (or fingertips in this case). The thing about intelligent women is that they know that they are and sure as hell aren't going to apologize for it. That rubs some men the wrong way and that's how they become trolls. The rest are "real" men or male bipedal humanoids who enjoy the witty repartee of such women. These men tend to have the good taste to become best friends with someone like Lolly. :yes:
Quote from: The Troll on October 07, 2010, 09:23:27 PM
Oh, I'll run out and tell everyone: :rotfl: I sure wouldn't want to work for you. Come on, your surly heard about all of the phony firings of people at the small companies in the last 2 years until the state of Indiana caught on about it. People being set up and out right lies, to fire people and not have to pay unemployment. I heard this from labor lawyers and the state labor board. I am surprised you didn't hear about it or even pull it on some of your employees.
I hear all of your bullshit, it still boils down to what the company wants to do. They can be half civil or assholes. You need to talk to some minimum wage people that have been layed off and couldn't receive unemployment. You Superior attitude toward hourly people really show up when someone calls you on your employee treatment.
No, I couldn't fire anyone and neither could supervision not even the plant manager, fire anyone without a meeting with Ford World Headquarters for salary or the UAW for hourly workers. We didn't have some HR bitch making all of the decisions and get by with it. It sounds like you women can fire a person and the upper management people doesn't give a damn. You people are what caused the union movement. Authoritarian with no conscience or morals in handling the slaves, the uneducated, the untrained and all of the people below you, which is everyone. I sure would love to buy you for what your are worth and sell you for what you think you're worth. My God, I would be a multimillionaire.
But when you are dealing with me, you're dealing with poor white trash with money. Skilled trades worker and a state licenced plumbing contractor for 45 years. I know I could do your job. But you sure as hell couldn't to my job or my work. You have needed to work for assholes like I did and work for some of the asshole public. Not sitting in a :police: guarded office above all of the dirt and mess of life. Ruling like a true Authoritarian. :kiss: Just keep beating you're deadhorse :deadhorse: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: P.S., It's really hard have to deal with a white trash union skilled tradesman and a business man and you can't fire me. :rotfl: :rotfl: And he doesn't give a damn what you say or think. :seeya2:
No Troll, if you'll get past your blind hatred of something that you obviously don't understand then you'll see that we're basically saying that by law people get fired because of egregious behavior such as Lolly described. I can't speak for Lolly, but where I work, I NEVER make a decision to fire anyone. I do however review and analyze the facts from both sides and ensure that proper procedures have been followed and that any action being taken is regulatorily correct. I'm not talking just employee handbook or union agreements, I'm talking state and federal regulations. I can honestly say that I've never been a party to a meeting where someone was released that he/she did not know that it was going to happen. Why? Because of due diligence on the part of management (in large part due to the advisory services of HR) and the fact that the employee ultimately knows that he/she committed an offense which would result in termination. The story they tell their friends and unemployment later is much different, but at the time that they're given the opportunity to justify themselves or appeal the decision they're strangely mum. Perhaps it's different in Indiana, but where I am, any employee can appeal a wrongful termination and it will be investigated by an outside agency.
As for laying people off? There's a process for that as well. Everything is and must be well documented. The story that you get on the employee-side is tarnished by hurt feelings, fear and anger so it's not the most creditable.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on October 07, 2010, 11:56:22 PM
No Troll, if you'll get past your blind hatred of something that you obviously don't understand then you'll see that we're basically saying that by law people get fired because of egregious behavior such as Lolly described. I can't speak for Lolly, but where I work, I NEVER make a decision to fire anyone. I do however review and analyze the facts from both sides and ensure that proper procedures have been followed and that any action being taken is regulatorily correct. I'm not talking just employee handbook or union agreements, I'm talking state and federal regulations. I can honestly say that I've never been a party to a meeting where someone was released that he/she did not know that it was going to happen. Why? Because of due diligence on the part of management (in large part due to the advisory services of HR) and the fact that the employee ultimately knows that he/she committed an offense which would result in termination. The story they tell their friends and unemployment later is much different, but at the time that they're given the opportunity to justify themselves or appeal the decision they're strangely mum. Perhaps it's different in Indiana, but where I am, any employee can appeal a wrongful termination and it will be investigated by an outside agency.
As for laying people off? There's a process for that as well. Everything is and must be well documented. The story that you get on the employee-side is tarnished by hurt feelings, fear and anger so it's not the most creditable.
Where do you get blind hatred of Lowes Home Improvement Store. There is nothing blind about my hatred for Lowes. They fired 4 men at the same time for the same NO LOSS, NO DAMAGE AND NO TIME LOSS ACCIDENT. They fired 4 men over nothing. The charges they cooked up, UNSAFE WORKING PRACTICES AND STEPPING INTO A SAFETY ZONE WITHOUT A CLIMBING HARNESS.
They were turn in by a young LOSS PREVENTION MAN just out of college, who happened to be in the safety zone without his climbing harness on when the mishap occurred.
The men had clean records, nothing against them. They range from 5 to 13 years with Lowes and one of them was the highest paid and the longest time employee at the the store.
They use the company rule book to fire these guys on trumped up charges. Then she, Lowes HR Senior manager didn't use the rule book to fire them. #1 there was suppost to be a hearing and investigation. #2 first time offense, verbal warning. #3 after verbal warning, time off and threat of termination. #4 After all of this termination.
#1 no hearing, no investigation. #2 no verbal warning, no time off. The men were just fired.
After this and all of the other things Lowes pulled on these 4 men, I went into the web and check out Lowes. They and their Human Resources department suck just like their treatment of their workers.
Just Goggle in People who hate Lowes, just one of many. All companies are different, some better than others. I don't know about you HR department, but a HR department like Lowes has can turn a good company into a asshole company, THAT'S LOWES!
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on October 07, 2010, 11:56:22 PM
... I NEVER make a decision to fire anyone. I do however review and analyze the facts from both sides and ensure that proper procedures have been followed and that any action being taken is regulatorily correct. I'm not talking just employee handbook or union agreements, I'm talking state and federal regulations.
While I do occasionally pull the trigger on someone (make the decision,) it is always a result of the investigation into questioned behavior. I spend most of the time explaining to pissed off supervisors why they
can't fire someone, just because they don't like the person's politics, style, friends and family, choice of sports team, etc. -- something they always call "insubordination."
Aside: for what it's worth, Indiana Labor Law gives only one definition for insubordination -- refusing to perform assigned duties. Being a shithead is not insubordination.In Indiana, just as in California, every terminated employee can appeal the termination and the denial of unemployment benefits, to an outside agency. If Troll's "friend" did not get an investigation, it is because he did not appeal. However, from his recounting of the tale, it sounds like an OSHA violation. OSHA trumps any company's handbook and policy manual. But the discharged employee can still appeal the termination, and win, if the rule is not uniformly enforced.
So, I'm tired of giving HR lessons to someone incapable of dispassionate response.
IMO, there's generally one reason why someone doesn't file an appeal and it's not for lack of knowing they can. Our company councils the former employee and puts their options and information re: how to go about it, in writing. We're assuming they won't just google it for their own benefit. ;D
Ditto, Lolly.
Quote from: LOsborne on October 08, 2010, 08:05:24 AM
While I do occasionally pull the trigger on someone (make the decision,) it is always a result of the investigation into questioned behavior. I spend most of the time explaining to pissed off supervisors why they can't fire someone, just because they don't like the person's politics, style, friends and family, choice of sports team, etc. -- something they always call "insubordination." Aside: for what it's worth, Indiana Labor Law gives only one definition for insubordination -- refusing to perform assigned duties. Being a shithead is not insubordination.
In Indiana, just as in California, every terminated employee can appeal the termination and the denial of unemployment benefits, to an outside agency. If Troll's "friend" did not get an investigation, it is because he did not appeal. However, from his recounting of the tale, it sounds like an OSHA violation. OSHA trumps any company's handbook and policy manual. But the discharged employee can still appeal the termination, and win, if the rule is not uniformly enforced.
So, I'm tired of giving HR lessons to someone incapable of dispassionate response.
Your problem is you ran into someone, a dumb plumber who really know the smoke and mirrors you HR people use. What do you mean giving lessons to someone who is incapable of dispassionate response. The only way you want to play is that you hold all of the good cards. Well baby cakes you found someone who know what you people are capable of.
I do admit that Lowe's HR woman manager did what she is suppose to do, she took the bullet for the assholes who pulled this. With the economy in Anderson Indiana the way it was. 18% unemployment, 1,400 homes in forclosure and home building flat on it's ass Lowes had lost some business and they wanted to lose some employees. They chose this opportunity to do it this way.
But they took it in the end. It demoralized the employees at the store, management lost their trust. Lowes had to change all of the top management, manager and the HR girl, they fired the lost prevention man who started all of this. Some on the building contractors who like the the mill work specialist quit buying at Lowes. And the man who took the fired mill work specialist job, nobody liked and thought he was a company rat. Hell, Lowes brought in "counselors" to try to build up company trust. Guess what it didn't work.
I don't need lessons and I don't need to talk about Human Resources anymore either.
Well, thank god that's over. . . Present company excluded of course, but I have very little "love" for HR folks myself. . .
Quote from: LOsborne on October 07, 2010, 08:01:52 AM
Oh Sandy, look. The "fighter for the little guy" has no clue where minimum wage stands, what number of hours legally constitute full-time employment, and is ignorant of the fact that part-timers who are laid off can collect unemployment insurance benefits. Now what was that quote of his I used? Oh yes...
I have been thinking about some of the wrong statements about the Troll and misinformation.
First of all, in the state of Indiana "NO" part time employee can get state unemployment. That a fact. It was stated by a long time HR person that they could receive it. Anything under 40 hours is considered by the state as part time work. That's why all of all you business will only offer 39 hour work week. Walmart does it every day to practically all of their workers.
I seen it over and over with my son. He would work his shift and cover over people shift who didn't come in to work and soon as he got in 39 hours the business would not let him work the rest of the week. A lot of times he only got to work 4 days a week because he already had his hours in.
Second, where in hell do you think I don't like smart women. I married one, been married to her for 47 years. She handled all of the money, the books, our books, my plumbing books and her money books, the taxes, the income from the part of the family farm and stocks she inherited.
I am quit sure I would not be living as good as I am now, if it wasn't for her handling the money. The only problem I have is, I don't know how much money she has embezzled from me. As one friend told me, "it isn't embezzlement until she leaves with it.
What I really HATE is some man hating woman who isn't to bright. Who with her college degree got in to Human Resources and has the power of life or death over a man job "his life." Especially in Indiana a "at will" state where the company can fire you for nothing or for any reason and there is nothing you can do about it.
Another thing I don't like is a high maintainice beautiful woman with nothing between her beautiful ears but air. An Air Head who don't like to work but loves to shop. :wall: :knife:
Quote from: The Troll on October 09, 2010, 07:32:00 AM
First of all, in the state of Indiana "NO" part time employee can get state unemployment.
Not true. From the IN Dept. of Workforce Development Handbook:
To establish a valid claim, an individual must have total wage credits during the base period that are at least one and one-fourth (1.25) times greater than the claimant's highest quarter wages. The claimant must also have base period wages totaling at least $2,750, with $1,650 of those wages earned in the last six (6) months of the base period. http://www.in.gov/dwd/2427.htm#iib
For a full-time worker (40 hours per week since you insist on that number) to earn a total of $1,650 in two consecutive quarters, he would only need to be paid $1.60 an hour.
When a person applies for unemployment benefits, nowhere is he asked how many hours a week he worked. All that matters is how much he earned.
I thought we agreed to drop the subject. I have no desire to continue this discussion, but I will not allow you to publish blatant falsehoods.