I'm sure everyone has seen the stories about the kid that died at the Speedway yesterday. Are his parents responsible? Why or why not?
:smile:
I was thinking along these very lines when I first heard about this incident. I have not reached a conclusion on it either. . .
Anyone have a link to the story?
When I was going to Motocross races a lot you wouldn't believe the number of 5yr olds racing. Of course they were racing each other in a class of 5 to 8yr old's but I still think it's not right. Was the kid racing others of his age or with adults?
Quote from: Locutus on August 30, 2010, 03:01:37 PM
Anyone have a link to the story?
DEAD! (http://www.theindychannel.com/sports/24803991/detail.html)
Whether it's child endangerment or neglect or not is a tricky thing. Yes, it is a dangerous sport, but so is football or any other sport including skate boarding. He could have been just riding a bicycle on the street and fallen off and been killed. I don't feel the parents should be charged if that's what you're getting at here.
Before we get all side tracked on 'other things are just as dangerous', let's all think that through. Yes, a kid can be killed doing just about anything but in order to accurately assess the risk, you need to look at the numbers of serious injuries and/or deaths for a given activity as compared to the number of people taking part in that activity and the number of hours they spend each week/month/year doing it. There are already people commenting that it's more dangerous to drive around with your kids in the car because more kids are hurt or killed in car accidents than in motorcycle racing accidents...not really a fair comparison.
I think in this particular case it is strictly a parents decision...they have invested in hours of training, and equipment....it is not like any kid can do what he did to get in a race a this stature....
Using that logic, it should be a parent's decision whether or not to put his/her child in a seatbelt as well. What if he was really well endowed and got AIDS doing porn...its not like any kid could do what he could to get into a movie of that stature?
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes: indeed. Aren't you going to use the 'he died doing what he loved' line?
FYI, my kids weren't allowed to start skydiving at 13...for a very good reason.
Quote from: Exterminator on August 30, 2010, 03:53:53 PM
:rolleyes: indeed. Aren't you going to use the 'he died doing what he loved' line?
FYI, my kids weren't allowed to start skydiving at 13...for a very good reason.
and that was YOUR decision....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on August 30, 2010, 03:56:51 PM
and that was YOUR decision....
Because I am a responsible parent! Them...dead kid; me...two living kids...see the connection?
Quote from: Exterminator on August 30, 2010, 04:01:11 PM
Because I am a responsible parent! Them...dead kid; me...two living kids...see the connection?
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but if you can find any interviews with the parents, or pictures of them, I'll bet money they're a bit red in the neck. :wink:
Quote from: Exterminator on August 30, 2010, 04:01:11 PM
Because I am a responsible parent! Them...dead kid; me...two living kids...see the connection?
In this case, there are no laws citing an age, it IS the parents decision....
Now, to clear the air, for me, I would never allow my 13-year old to be involved in such a sport, at that level of competition. I think depending on the sport, and the child's maturity, ability, and the level of danger would play factors ON MY decision.
Sorry but no 13 year old is mature enough to understand the ultimate consequences of a mistake in that circumstance.
Quote from: Locutus on August 30, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but if you can find any interviews with the parents, or pictures of them, I'll bet money they're a bit red in the neck. :wink:
More than a bit, I'm sure. Maybe we should be thanking Darwin.
Quote from: Exterminator on August 30, 2010, 04:17:07 PM
Sorry but no 13 year old is mature enough to understand the ultimate consequences of a mistake in that circumstance.
I disagree, maybe not every or even a lot, but I have known some that do.
Kids can't drive until they are 16 or older, letting them race is asking for trouble. I agree with Ex on this one no teenager understands death, they all think it won't happen to them.
Quote from: Locutus on August 30, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but if you can find any interviews with the parents, or pictures of them, I'll bet money they're a bit red in the neck. :wink:
They would have to be rich red necks. Do you have a clue how much money that type of racing costs?
Quote from: Anne on August 30, 2010, 05:18:21 PM
Kids can't drive until they are 16 or older, letting them race is asking for trouble. I agree with Ex on this one no teenager understands death, they all think it won't happen to them.
More kids die in bath tubs, falling out of trees, riding bicycles, swimming pools, drowning in ponds, skate boarding than riding in a motorcycle race. It's bad and I'm sad it happened, but life go one.
But why would you let it happen? I don't thin we can protect children from everything but to purposly put them in harm's way is something else.
Quote from: Anne on August 30, 2010, 05:28:11 PM
But why would you let it happen? I don't thin we can protect children from everything but to purposly put them in harm's way is something else.
Why not. I had a bicycle when I was a kid and I bought one for my kid. I had a tree house, I built one for my kid. I had a gun and went hunting, so when he was 10 I bought him a gun and we went hunting.
What you going to do, them them lock up, send them to a private Chirstain school, send them to Christian college not do anything dangerous then when you turn them out into the cold cruel world and let them fend for themselves. Anne give a break. We are raising men and women not Mamby Pamby Pussies. Want a Kleenx.
And my kids had bikes, and tree houses and skateboards and played football too. Bud I did not put them on a motorcycle to race around a track at a high speed. A heck of a lot more dangerous than riding a bike down a neighborhood street.
Quote from: Anne on August 30, 2010, 06:53:55 PM
And my kids had bikes, and tree houses and skateboards and played football too. Bud I did not put them on a motorcycle to race around a track at a high speed. A heck of a lot more dangerous than riding a bike down a neighborhood street.
]
YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. :groan: :groan: YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME :groan: :groan:
Quote from: me on August 30, 2010, 05:18:58 PM
They would have to be rich red necks. Do you have a clue how much money that type of racing costs?
Sponsorships. Besides, NASCAR is full of rich rednecks. :yes:
Quote from: Locutus on August 30, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but if you can find any interviews with the parents, or pictures of them, I'll bet money they're a bit red in the neck. :wink:
I wouldn't count on it. This was GP racing, not flat track or motocross. This deal takes money, and lots of it.
We put my youngest in a Junior Dragster at 9 years old. We had considered motorcycles, quarter midgets and go karts as well. The Juniors had the least amount of risk to the child, so we erred on the side of safety. Plus I had been drag racing off and on for a number of years and Mike grew up (as much as a 9 year old can) at the strip. While I believe he could have been successful in any form of motorsports, we were most comfortable with him drag racing. Had I been into racing motorcycles, we would have likely went that direction.
It all comes down to the comfort level you have with your child and his interests. Overall, racing tends to have less injuries than stick and ball sports, so who is to say what is right for the kids? It's a personal choice, and you have to live with any consequences.
Quote from: The Troll on August 30, 2010, 07:05:00 PM
]
YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. :groan: :groan: YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME :groan: :groan:
Troll that particular sport is very dangerous even for an adult and though I agree it was their right to allow their kid to race I would not have allowed a child of mine to do something like that, at least I don't think I would have, as much as I enjoyed going to them and motocross races and feeling the excitement when my ex brother-in-law won or came in close to first. I do disagree with Ann that they don't know the dangers though because they see it happen a lot when they are racing at those levels because of the number of events they are in each year and they are well aware it could happen to them too. I'd say his parents were aware of the danger too just as Ex was aware of the danger of taking his kids sky diving but you can't live your life in a cocoon.
Quote from: Anne on August 30, 2010, 06:53:55 PM
And my kids had bikes, and tree houses and skateboards and played football too. Bud I did not put them on a motorcycle to race around a track at a high speed. A heck of a lot more dangerous than riding a bike down a neighborhood street.
This was on a warm up lap, not up to speed, and all of the safety equipment. This was a freak accident, kids on bicycles are at far more risk.
Quote from: Mr442 on August 30, 2010, 09:49:23 PM
This was on a warm up lap, not up to speed, and all of the safety equipment. This was a freak accident, kids on bicycles are at far more risk.
Thank you 442. I don't think any of them would listen to me on this but you being, familiar with it too, can maybe help them understand.
Quote from: me on August 30, 2010, 09:46:37 PM
Troll that particular sport is very dangerous even for an adult and though I agree it was their right to allow their kid to race I would not have allowed a child of mine to do something like that, at least I don't think I would have, as much as I enjoyed going to them and motocross races and feeling the excitement when my ex brother-in-law won or came in close to first. I do disagree with Ann that they don't know the dangers though because they see it happen a lot when they are racing at those levels because of the number of events they are in each year and they are well aware it could happen to them too. I'd say his parents were aware of the danger too just as Ex was aware of the danger of taking his kids sky diving but you can't live your life in a cocoon.
:wait: :dam: :@#%&: :beer: :shots: :end: I I I aggggree with you.
One of the stories on this accident did mention how the high temps made the track slippery. Even a few of the top professional riders had get offs due to the lack of traction. It was just a bad situation for all, and much worse for some.
And unless you have raced in competition, you will never understand the feeling you get, it is magical. Remember, mom and dad didn't force the kid to ride, they were only letting him enjoy his talents and interests. Much like any parent will do for their children. Doesn't matter if it's racing or tiddlywinks, we all want our children to do well and enjoy something positive. He could have been skipping school and smoking weed, but he was doing something he loved, and something that had a good potential future to it, a good wholesome activity.
I doubt the red neck thing. The kid was a Canadian . . . He was hit by another rider after taking a spill in one of the curves. . .
One of the highest priorities of the numerous responsibilities of becoming a parent is the absolute duty of keeping your child safe, within every aspect of their lives over which a human being maintains any semblance of control. While certainly some of us as adults exercise a greater ability in certain areas than others, the protection of ones offspring is an instinctual reaction; or at least should be in some cases.
The law within this country have determined that human beings should achieve a certain number of years before they can legally be eligible to operate a motor vehicle upon the roadways. While this age milestone may vary slightly from state to state, the main take away from this fact is that it has been determined that human beings are required to achieve a certain level of development in order to be trusted to exercise a higher degree of tempered judgment as it connects with physical ability.
Far too often within today's society we see adults (parents) living vicariously through their children; from the catwalks of beauty pageants, the defensive line on a football field, the corners of an ice hockey rink, to the motor speedways of this country. And minus the legislation to properly gate these events adults will continue to place their children at risk in order to feed their addiction to, or regrets surrounding, their own formative years.
Perhaps it is due to the life circumstances growing up in an era wherein perhaps their families could not afford to let them participate in organized sporting programs, etc. Or maybe they just plain lacked the ability or skill sets to achieve what they saw their heroes accomplish. Whatever it is it seems to have overridden the instinctual drive to protect their own children and prevent them from coming to harm.
Legally, I don't think that allowing a 13 year old to race motorcycles within sanctioned competitions is a crime of any sort, but the key question we all seem to be missing is not whether it is abusive or endangering to the child, (which clearly it is dangerous above and beyond that to which the average 13 year old would be expected to be exposed to), but rather, is it fair to the child to allow him/her to risk their lives and future health in such a pursuit, and what are we as a society teaching these children by doing so?
Is it fair? I do not believe it to be. Certainly a child may tell us they know the risks and they are willing to assume them, but every single one of us knows that they know nothing about such things and that they are speaking from an emotional perspective as opposed to an informed one. And any adult that endorses such a high level of risk is, from my perspective, just as guilty of the same emotional behavior and decision making. No matter what this child's parents may say publicly, I'd bet the farm that they are privately cursing the day they ever allowed him to sit astride a motorcycle and race it. They gave in to their child's emotional and uninformed decision making skills, and joined him in the delusional idea that he was invincible.
And each of us knows far too much about the invincibility thing at that age. How many times have you thought back upon your own actions during the same age bracket, and had the thought, "I don't know why I am still alive" Well, the answer is that your parents would not allow you engage in such endeavors at that age, and it scared the crap out of you so you did not repeat it. . . did you?
This whole business has got out of control and adults continue to demonstrate that they do not possess the ability or will to protect their children from unnecessary risks, and exercise some parental authority in refusing to allow it. While I agree that motor racing in all its forms is an engaging and entertaining pursuit, society must insist upon the achievement of basic abilities in order to allow individuals to pursue the sport, and provide engineered solutions to mitigate the risks associated with engaging in it at the lesser levels. (Speed governance, protective equipment, easier course, etc.)
Certainly the dangers associated with the pursuit of racing are inherent, and each of its practitioners and participants must exercise their right to participate and weigh the risks associated with it against the benefits. But shouldn't we require that they have the ability to arrive at an educated and informed decision before allowing them to do so? If we do not what are we teaching these children and how will it impact their own decision making process when it comes to your grandchildren?
Quote from: The Troll on August 30, 2010, 09:58:56 PM
:wait: :dam: :@#%&: :beer: :shots: :end: I I I aggggree with you.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/deerladie/feint.gif)
Quote from: The Troll on August 30, 2010, 05:24:23 PM
More kids die in bath tubs, falling out of trees, riding bicycles, swimming pools, drowning in ponds, skate boarding than riding in a motorcycle race. It's bad and I'm sad it happened, but life go one.
I thought we had already covered the math portion of this discussion but some are apparently still challenged by statistical analysis. Of course more kids will die doing those things because in any given year, there are probably tens of millions of kids doing them whereas there are probably only a few hundred even coming close to participating in this sport at this level.
I'm a parent and I consider myself a thoughtful, informed and engaged parent. I monitor my daughter's activities and safety and I encourage her to try as many things that interest her. Because of all of this, I agree with Mr. 442. I also agree with PH re: the parent's grief and the torment that will follow them the rest of their lives. Guilt generally becomes a part of a parent's being the day a child is born. All of those coulds, woulds and shoulds take on a completely different level of importance when you realize that every decision you make, even the minute ones, impact the future of someone who's counting on you.
I want to skydive, but I've opted to wait to learn until my daughter is grown (she's 13 now) ...just in case. She wants to learn with me. She has expressed interest in learning to ride a dirt bike. She hasn't had lessons yet, but it's in the forecast. She loves motorcycles and 4 wheelers and rides on both with trusted drivers (but hasn't driven either) on a regular basis.
I don't know if I would allow her race, but I do believe that she can comprehend the risk.
Well said, PH.
I agree with Ex, where he said to PH.."well said"....PH, always has a way with words... :yes:
My only thing is I do not want the government to step in and start dictating MORE rules...the racing league should be the one to realize what they have allowed to happen....and enforce it's own rules regarding "age".
as far as parenting....that is a whole new topic.
Henry posted"
"My only thing is I do not want the government to step in and start dictating MORE rules."
I wonder...........back in the day, would you have been against child labor laws being enacted.
Quote from: followsthewolf on August 31, 2010, 08:56:12 AM
Henry posted"
"My only thing is I do not want the government to step in and start dictating MORE rules."
I wonder...........back in the day, would you have been against child labor laws being enacted.
nope
Quote from: Henry Hawk on August 31, 2010, 09:17:34 AM
nope
There is one rule I would like to see. The government would take people like the Hawk and let him stop paying Social Security tax and let him handle the money for his retirement. But forever, for him and them no govenment aid for them for ever. No Medicare, no Medicade (nursing home), and nothing for his or their kids if they pass before they get to be 65. Just think if Hawk was killed coming home from Indianapolis and he didn't have S.S. his kid and wife would get nothing and I'll bet as cheap as he is, he doesn't have life insurance to take care of them.
Just think Hawk would have to plan to the dime and nickle of what he is going to have when he choose to quite working. But to a Republican everybody should be made to work until the day they die poor, except the rich.
Quote from: The Troll on August 31, 2010, 10:07:11 AM
I'll bet as cheap as he is, he doesn't have life insurance to take care of them.
why don't you just shut the fuck up once in a while?...
Quote from: Henry Hawk on August 31, 2010, 10:13:53 AM
why don't you just shut the fuck up once in a while?...
:thumbsup: :food4:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on August 31, 2010, 10:13:53 AM
why don't you just shut the fuck up once in a while?...
Oh the power of the Tweak, it feels so good to see a thrown Tweak get under the skin of someone so cheap. Or is that frugal. :thumbsup: Troll. :biggrin:
Well said PH. Thanks
Quote from: Anne on August 31, 2010, 03:01:29 PM
Well said PH. Thanks
It really get me one kid get killed in what I consider a freak accident. Just how many kids have been killed in motorcycle racing, I haven't heard of one but this one.
All of the bleeding hearts come out and cry, "Oh my God the poor children, save the poor children" Let's shut down all racing, all things that a kid can get killed at. My God I don't know how any of us live though some of the things we did as kids. Get a life. Take a breath.
Hell, children don't have to do anything. How many starve to death each year. Die of preventable diseases.
Quote from: Exterminator on August 31, 2010, 08:11:32 AM
I thought we had already covered the math portion of this discussion but some are apparently still challenged by statistical analysis. Of course more kids will die doing those things because in any given year, there are probably tens of millions of kids doing them whereas there are probably only a few hundred even coming close to participating in this sport at this level.