MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A federal judge in Wisconsin ruled the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional Thursday, saying the day amounts to a call for religious action.
U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb wrote that the government can no more enact laws supporting a day of prayer than it can encourage citizens to fast during Ramadan, attend a synagogue or practice magic.
"In fact, it is because the nature of prayer is so personal and can have such a powerful effect on a community that the government may not use its authority to try to influence an individual's decision whether and when to pray," Crabb wrote.
Congress established the day in 1952 and in 1988 set the first Thursday in May as the day for presidents to issue proclamations asking Americans to pray. The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Madison-based group of atheists and agnostics, filed a lawsuit against the federal government in 2008 arguing the day violated the separation of church and state.
President Barack Obama's administration has countered that the statute simply acknowledges the role of religion in the United States. Obama issued a proclamation last year but did not hold public events with religious leaders as former President George W. Bush had done.
Crabb wrote that her ruling shouldn't be considered a bar to any prayer days until all appeals are exhausted. U.S. Justice Department attorneys who represented the federal government in the case were reviewing the ruling Thursday afternoon, agency spokesman Charles Miller said. He declined further comment.
Obama spokesman Matt Lehrich said in an e-mail to The Associated Press the president still plans to issue a proclamation for the next prayer day.
"As he did last year, President Obama intends to recognize a National Day of Prayer," Lehrich said.
The American Center for Law and Justice, which represented 31 members of Congress who joined the federal government as defendants, called Crabb's ruling flawed and promised to appeal.
"It is unfortunate that this court failed to understand that a day set aside for prayer for the country represents a time-honored tradition that embraces the First Amendment, not violates it," ACLJ Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow said in a statement.
The Alliance Defense Fund, an Arizona-based group of Christian lawyers, issued a statement saying Crabb's ruling undermines American tradition dating back to the nation's birth.
Freedom From Religion Foundation attorney Richard Bolton didn't immediately return a message seeking comment.
Crabb wrote that her ruling was not a judgment on the value of prayer. She noted government involvement in prayer may be constitutional if the conduct serves a "significant secular purpose" and doesn't amount to a call for religious action. But the National Day of Prayer crosses that line, she wrote.
"It goes beyond mere 'acknowledgment' of religion because its sole purpose is to encourage all citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function in this context," she wrote. "In this instance, the government has taken sides on a matter that must be left to individual conscience."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-04-15-prayer-day_N.htm
Now watch all the Dobson's, Robertsons, and others get their panties in a wad over this one. :rotfl:
I don't see what the deal is, honestly. It's just a day.....there are no consequences if people choose not to acknowledge it.
What's next...Mothers day, fathers day? Because it offends those who never became parents? Just sayin.....
Quote from: pariann on April 16, 2010, 11:43:53 AM
I don't see what the deal is, honestly. It's just a day.....there are no consequences if people choose not to acknowledge it.
What's next...Mothers day, fathers day? Because it offends those who never became parents? Just sayin.....
Apples and oranges. :smile:
uh....maybe.....but let me reach here. In the 10 commandments, a religious list (yes?), it says to honor your mother and father. The government made a national holiday for each of them...to do just that. Atheists could just as easily make that reach and lodge their complaint, yes?
Quote from: pariann on April 16, 2010, 11:53:51 AM
uh....maybe.....but let me reach here. In the 10 commandments, a religious list (yes?), it says to honor your mother and father. The government made a national holiday for each of them...to do just that. Atheists could just as easily make that reach and lodge their complaint, yes?
Not one with a lick of sense. :no:
You can find a LOT of those...in every belief or non-belief system.
I will lay out my 2 cents on this:
First of all, nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to attacking anything that is considered religious in this day and time...
Second, this ruling will do nothing to harm those who believe in the power of prayer and recognize it's significance.
Third, I find it sad... that our forefathers with the first Continental Congress, called for a National Day of Prayer
in 1775....they realized how significant this day was.....
Abraham Lincoln realized the magnitude of this day when he called for such a day...
There have been 135 national calls to prayer, humiliation, fasting and thanksgiving by the President of the United States since 1789 through 2009...THEY all realized the significance...
There has been 57 Presidential Proclamations for a "National Day of Prayer" ....
33 of the 44 U.S. Presidents have signed proclamations for National Prayer.....Four of the Presidents who did not sign a proclamation died while serving in office....not sure if they realized it's significance...
but, yet THIS POTUS fails to find any significance of it...........just sayin....it does NOT surprise me what so ever... :no:
finally, it could be argued, and probably will be.....but I am okay with it, because like I said earlier, it doesn't change anything, there still will be a "day of prayer" coming up next month....
and just one more personal thought, I as a Christian believe it truly IS significant and a vital part of our heritage of this nation....and I am in good company....I can live with that... :yes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 16, 2010, 12:24:19 PM
but, yet THIS POTUS fails to find any significance of it...........just sayin....it does NOT surprise me what so ever... :no:
What does Obama have to do with it? If you read the article, the Obama administration is the defendant in the case.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/s2vaip.jpg)
Caption: Dear government, please bless my godly petition
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Locutus on April 16, 2010, 12:30:52 PM
What does Obama have to do with it? If you read the article, the Obama administration is the defendant in the case.
He canceled the ceremony for the National Day of Prayer at the White House last year....I guess things being unconstitutional doesn't bother him anyway... :razz: :razz: :razz: (rimshot)
I have made some assuptions, we will see what he does.... ;)
Now here's an interesting perspective from a Christian, who says that the National Day of prayer should just be let go. If all religious people were more like him, rather than ones who have to have the government validate their religion, the world would definitely be a better place. Kudos to this gentleman.
Now that a federal judge has struck down the 1952 federal law establishing a National Day of Prayer, Christians are presented with a golden opportunity – to shrug their shoulders and say, "Who cares?"
That's probably not what most "Christian leaders" will do, but it's what all should.
The Christian community has become far too fixated, especially during the era of instant mass media, on seeking government endorsement and approval of everything we hold dear. That, as Solomon would have said, is meaningless – a chasing after the wind. And we waste our time and twist ourselves like pretzels in the pursuit of it.
Now you will find few writers who are as convinced as I am of the power of prayer. Not only is prayer valuable because God does listen and does answer prayers, it's also good for the person praying because it cements a closer relationship with God, which makes the power of the Holy Spirit that much more intense in your life. The result of that is that you are more effective at everything you do in life.
This is not to endorse any Joel Osteen-type nonsense about how people with a good attitude toward God will necessarily be blessed with spiritual riches. This is a fallen world and you are going to have problems in it, maybe financial ones. But staying close to God gives you more power and effectiveness to deal with these problems, and makes you less likely to add further, self-inflicted problems to the ones that are unavoidable as a consequence of living.
So yeah. Pray. Everyone. Only good things can come of it.
But we don't need the federal government declaring a "National Day of Prayer," and there are some serious drawbacks to seeking one.
For one thing, any such national day must by constitutional mandate be non-sectarian. Why do Christians want prayer watered down so as to satisfy the watchful eye of federal judges?
The same problem applies to the movement to promote prayer in public schools. You don't want public school teachers leading them, because if that's part of their job, you know the prayers are going to be insincere and largely devoid of meaning. And "silent" prayer as an alternative? There's nothing stopping you from doing that any minute of the day that you want, anyway. Do you think it somehow makes the prayer more special because your teacher gave you permission to be quiet for a few seconds? Your teacher probably wishes you would do that more often as it is.
As Christians go to court to try to reverse this ruling, they will argue that the National Day of Prayer is constitutional because it doesn't constitute an endorsement of Christianity or any other particular faith. And if that argument proves true, then what good are the prayers? Why are we fighting for the right have the government put its hand on our heads and bless our meaningless prayers?
The government is not the partner of the people of God in the work of God's kingdom. It is a secular necessity allowed by God, but not seen as one of the tools of his eternal purposes. When Christians desire so strongly to have government approve of their prayerfulness, you have to wonder if Christians have turned government into a mini-god of its own.
The other big problem with the so-called National Day of Prayer is that it implies we're doing fine as long as we all pray on a given day. Serious Christians know that we are instructed to pray without ceasing. Every day is supposed to be your day of prayer. Even a bunch of people do pray at the government's behest on a given day (and the over/under on people who will do that is approximately seven), what would be the value of this?
If Christians want others to see the value of prayer, here's a better idea: Rather than have a National Day of Prayer where the government tells us all to pray, spend your time praying for the needs of other people, and let them know you're doing it. Sincerely taking an interest in the well-being of others, and taking their needs to God, is a much better way to demonstrate the power of prayer than going back to court to try to get the government's blessing to seek God's blessing.
That's what "Christian leaders" should do. They won't. But they should.
http://www.northstarnational.com/2010/04/16/judge-kills-national-day-prayer-hey-christians-buried/
I can go along with that..........It really doesn't bother me one way or the other....because, Like I said there will still be a National day of prayer despite if it is recognized by the POTUS or not....but, I do find it inspiring when a POTUS makes a stand to recognize it's significance...that's all I am saying.
IMO, it has been there for 50+ years. Hasn't hurt anyone, won't hurt anyone, doesn't cost anyone any money. Seems like a waste of time and money to make a deal over it. It doesn't matter to me as far as religion/no religion goes, just why waste time and money when there are a lot of more important things to settle in the Supreme Court for crying out loud.
That's pretty much what I meant when I asked why it was just a big deal.
It comes down to that old adage- "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile". And so it works within the legal system.
The problem is once the elephant in the room is acknowledged, which now has been achieved via legal action, it must be addressed or it can become a legal foothold for additional challenges. In this respect our legal system works akin to playground rules; and once a kid is caught breaking a rule, then he/she points out others who are breaking the rules as some kind of twisted means of validation for his/her own actions. The whole thing snowballs and can get out of control without a decisive course of action, (or legal ruling in the case in question here).
Christianity counts a high number of individuals within its leadership across the country, that take a militant approach toward their chosen religion; on both sides of any given argument. Each one of these has demonstrated a clear affinity for attempting to meld religion and government, and they recognize no limitation toward engaging in acts of zealotry anywhere, anytime. (A certain Baptist Church comes to mind as an example of this).
Another example is in today's headlines surrounding a hospital in Florida refusing to allow the partner of a terminally ill patient into her room just because they lead an alternative lifestyle, and because that state has come out as an officially unsupportive one surrounding those leading alternative lifestyles. (This little piece of religious zealotry is a prime example of the undue influence religion exercises within government today, simply due to a precedent set a couple of hundred years ago during a period when humanity still believed in witches and was burning witches at the stake).
Religion has remained in the dark ages while the rest of the world has evolved. The post Locutus made quoting a Christian stating the fact that religion doesn't need governmental endorsement or validation to work, is probably the most sane approach I have seen coming from a Christian in a very long time. Religion doesn't need government and government doesn't need religion; its the reason they are supposed to be kept separate!
Nothin' like a good ol' scrap about religion to huff up "patriot" feelings (you know, god and country stuff) so we can set the stage for electin' a god and country patriot to be senator/congress person/state representative/mayor/county executive/ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
Smoke and mirrors, much-ado-about-nothing stuff.
exactly.....because I most certainly don't need one day a year devoted to prayer. I can pray anytime I feel like it, and I do.
Quote from: pariann on April 16, 2010, 02:47:56 PM
exactly.....because I most certainly don't need one day a year devoted to prayer. I can pray anytime I feel like it, and I do.
It's main point is to take one day in particular, where citizens can unite and pray for the nation....of course we can all pray anytime, but rarely do we, as a nation, pray for a common issue, and that is this country....I like the idea myself.
Henry....with the internet, you can make anything national without having the government create it. You know...you dream something up and tell two friends...they tell two friends, who in turn tell two friends...next thing you know.....June 17, 2010 the nation knows that something is happening in unity. (just pulled a random date out of thin air for the illustration) I'm seeing it done all the time.
Quote from: pariann on April 16, 2010, 03:21:27 PM
Henry....with the internet, you can make anything national without having the government create it. You know...you dream something up and tell two friends...they tell two friends, who in turn tell two friends...next thing you know.....June 17, 2010 the nation knows that something is happening in unity. (just pulled a random date out of thin air for the illustration) I'm seeing it done all the time.
I agree, and that is what I have pretty much stated....I really don't care one way or the other, there is STILL going to be a National Day of Prayer.....I said I admire a POTUS who stands behind it and encourages it.
So you want LESS government 'cept in the prayer bidness. :confused:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 16, 2010, 04:41:01 PM
So you want LESS government 'cept in the prayer bidness. :confused:
Nope, not at all.....to me, it just shows some charactor, imo....for a potus to recognize the significance of honoring such a day..........but, for the zillionth time, prez or no prez approval, there is STILL going to be a national day of prayer....
don't make anything out of that statement other than what it is....
No I get it...
*In my best Dana Carvey impersonating Bush Sr voice*
A president who interferes in the American public's right to be screwed by corporate insurance companies by promoting healthcare reform which is for the good of all Americans.....baaaaaaad
But a president who interferes in the American public's religious process by promoting prayer which is only good for those who assume that a national prayer day is beneficial b/c it endorses Christianity is ......goooood
Bad....Good...see it right there? Bad...Good... a huh
I can't believe y'all are swallowing this smoke-screen. Who gives a rat's ass whether National Day of Prayer is constitutional? Nah.... like Quayle's nomination was meant to distract us from the Silverado cluster-f***, this adjudication is meant to keep the public from paying attention to something else. My guess is this:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/15/top-vatican-official-praised-bishop-who-covered-for-child-molest/?icid=main|
Quote from: LOsborne on April 16, 2010, 06:59:49 PM
I can't believe y'all are swallowing this smoke-screen. Who gives a rat's ass whether National Day of Prayer is constitutional? Nah.... like Quayle's nomination was meant to distract us from the Silverado cluster-f***, this adjudication is meant to keep the public from paying attention to something else. My guess is this:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/15/top-vatican-official-praised-bishop-who-covered-for-child-molest/?icid=main|
Loly, its Charlie Foxtrot. Charlie Foxtrot.
The Troll :no1:
Good point, Lolly. About as important as the war on Christmas :rolleyes:
again, I haven't seen any Christians getting all out of sorts on this........I'm sure there are some evagelicals that are working the media for attention....but as God as my witness, people are going to have a national day of prayer with or without any gov approval....and life goes on.
I can just picture you w/the back of your hand on your forehead...looking off into the distance...semi-swooning...."As god as my witness....." ;D
Would somebody please say, Amen! Ever seen an lost arm, leg, eye, bad heart or a deformed baby fixed with prayers. It should be an easy job for God!
The Troll :pray:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on April 17, 2010, 08:13:37 AM
I can just picture you w/the back of your hand on your forehead...looking off into the distance...semi-swooning...."As god as my witness....." ;D
Is that a Gone With the Wind reference?
Yup
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 17, 2010, 12:45:44 AM
again, I haven't seen any Christians getting all out of sorts on this........I'm sure there are some evagelicals that are working the media for attention....but as God as my witness, people are going to have a national day of prayer with or without any gov approval....and life goes on.
Evangelist, I know Evangelist at one time they scared the hell out of me. It was 1945 or 1946 my mother took us kids to a Evangelist Tent Meeting. I can remember that night very well.
It was a very warm night, there were no fans in the tent. The old church ladies all had their folding fans out, fanning themselves. I can remember how the tent looked with the lights running down the center of the tent.
It was a good night, the tent was full. Our preacher comes out and offers a prayer. Then he introduces, Ole Fire and Brimestone, Gods number man to stomp out sin.
The hell in our hearts, our sins, fire, brimestone, torture and the fiery pits of hell for each an everyone of us, if we didn't get down on our knees and pray.
He then said, THERE IS NO SINNERS THAT IS IN THIS TENT THAT IS GOING TO BE IN THE 4000 PEOPLE, WHO IS GOING TO THE LORD IN THE RAPTURE. We are doomed to fight that last fight between God and Lucifer where the blood was going to run to a horses bridle.
Well, the old ladies started to sobbing and crying, some got down on their knees, some stood with the arms in the air and I was scared to death.
Then, old Fire and Brimestone told us to come to the alter where he was so kind to pray for us.
I look back at what that lying sonuvabitch and what he did to the older people who believe this stuff and the kids, you know I despise that man . For thousands of years, it's been smoke and mirrors. I don't believe there is a God, if there is, he sure is doing one hell of a bad job working with his flock. Rapture, some says it in the Bible and some says in not. I really don't give a damn. Nothing ever came to me easy, anyway.
And the National Day of prayer, it's just smoke and mirrors. Something our government should have nothing in. If the Christians want it, let them at it, and keep me and the people who think like out of it.
The Troll
Quote from: The Troll on April 17, 2010, 08:31:58 PM
Evangelist, I know Evangelist at one time they scared the hell out of me. It was 1945 or 1946 my mother took us kids to a Evangelist Tent Meeting. I can remember that night very well.
It was a very warm night, there were no fans in the tent. The old church ladies all had their folding fans out, fanning themselves. I can remember how the tent looked with the lights running down the center of the tent.
It was a good night, the tent was full. Our preacher comes out and offers a prayer. Then he introduces, Ole Fire and Brimestone, Gods number man to stomp out sin.
The hell in our hearts, our sins, fire, brimestone, torture and the fiery pits of hell for each an everyone of us, if we didn't get down on our knees and pray.
He then said, THERE IS NO SINNERS THAT IS IN THIS TENT THAT IS GOING TO BE IN THE 4000 PEOPLE, WHO IS GOING TO THE LORD IN THE RAPTURE. We are doomed to fight that last fight between God and Lucifer where the blood was going to run to a horses bridle.
Well, the old ladies started to sobbing and crying, some got down on their knees, some stood with the arms in the air and I was scared to death.
Then, old Fire and Brimestone told us to come to the alter where he was so kind to pray for us.
I look back at what that lying sonuvabitch and what he did to the older people who believe this stuff and the kids, you know I despise that man . For thousands of years, it's been smoke and mirrors. I don't believe there is a God, if there is, he sure is doing one hell of a bad job working with his flock. Rapture, some says it in the Bible and some says in not. I really don't give a damn. Nothing ever came to me easy, anyway.
And the National Day of prayer, it's just smoke and mirrors. Something our government should have nothing in. If the Christians want it, let them at it, and keep me and the people who think like out of it.
The Troll
Amen Brother Troll! Preach it on! :yes: :icon_twisted: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
(A+++)
Quote from: The Troll on April 17, 2010, 08:31:58 PM
Something our government should have nothing in. If the Christians want it, let them at it, and keep me and the people who think like out of it.
The Troll
JUST, because a POTUS declares a "day".. and National Day of Prayer, does NOT mean YOU have to participate....it simply tells the world, that WE, as a Majority, STILL recognize the importance of Prayer....as did our forefathers as it IS an important part of our Heritage....it seems like it is the ANTI- religious is getting there panties all stuck up their crawl....if you don't like it, don't pray....it is REALLY that simple.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 19, 2010, 07:14:26 AM
JUST, because a POTUS declares a "day".. and National Day of Prayer, does NOT mean YOU have to participate....it simply tells the world, that WE, as a Majority, STILL recognize the importance of Prayer....as did our forefathers as it IS an important part of our Heritage....it seems like it is the ANTI- religious is getting there panties all stuck up their crawl....if you don't like it, don't pray....it is REALLY that simple.
Henry, you guys you have 75% of the religious, I sure like to see how many really are. This is not a democracy. Do what you want, just keep me and my ilk out of it.
The Troll :pray:
Quote from: The Troll on April 19, 2010, 09:33:29 AM
Henry, you guys you have 75% of the religious, I sure like to see how many really are. This is not a democracy. Do what you want, just keep me and my ilk out of it.
The Troll :pray:
How does declaring a National Day of Prayer effect you?....How does it bring one ounce of harm to you?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 19, 2010, 09:36:58 AM
How does declaring a National Day of Prayer effect you?....How does it bring one ounce of harm to you?
Does gay marriage bother you? Does a woman have the right to do, what she think are right for her own body and condition. Like having an abortion. bother you?
I know what, you could get Ted Haggart, Jimmy Sweiggart, Pat Robertson, Joel Osteen, Terry Randell and Tony Perkins go on their religious shows and promote it. There such good people.
The Troll :salute:
Quote from: The Troll on April 19, 2010, 04:02:17 PM
Does gay marriage bother you? Does a woman have the right to do, what she think are right for her own body and condition. Like having an abortion. bother you?
I know what, you could get Ted Haggart, Jimmy Sweiggart, Pat Robertson, Joel Osteen, Terry Randell and Tony Perkins go on their religious shows and promote it. There such good people.
The Troll :salute:
I don't watch or support ANY TV Evangelist by the way....and you STILL did not answer my question....which gets back to my point, do you ever read what I post?
I thought it was a silly question. Does it bother me that the The United States of America would support religion of any kind and for any reason. YES, YES, YES, YES.
Answer my question. does gay marriage bother you. Does a woman exercising her right to have an abortion, brother you.
The Troll
Quote from: The Troll on April 19, 2010, 05:10:31 PM
I thought it was a silly question. Does it bother me that the The United States of America would support religion of any kind and for any reason. YES, YES, YES, YES.
Answer my question. does gay marriage bother you. Does a woman exercising her right to have an abortion, brother you.
The Troll
Gay marriage, I think is wrong, but none of my business when it gets down to....abortion in my opinion is wrong unless the mother's life is endangered...it is killing...plain and simple...
my question to you was "How does declaring a National Day of Prayer effect you?....How does it bring one ounce of harm to you?"
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 19, 2010, 09:53:51 PM
Gay marriage, I think is wrong, but none of my business when it gets down to....abortion in my opinion is wrong unless the mother's life is endangered...it is killing...plain and simple...
my question to you was "How does declaring a National Day of Prayer effect you?....How does it bring one ounce of harm to you?"
Is killing America's finest in Iraq all right with you? Killing Iraqi people all right with you?
Having the government authorizing a National Day of Prayer is just flat wrong. Let me quote some quotes from from two founding fathers.
1797 Treaty of Tripoli. President John Adams. "The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Thomas Jefferson 4/11/1823. Letter to John Adams. "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter".
Bother me personally, NO. But the Christians are like camels. First the nose under the tent. Next the head in the tent, Next the whole body body in the tent. Next the camel gets afraid and runs away with the whole tent. This is one reason why the Christians want prayer in school, they brain wash the kids, before they are too old to resist.
I do not want to stop you from having a day of prayer. Just keep the government out of it. Remember what you said. You want a smaller government.
The Troll. :pray: :biggrin:
Quote from: The Troll on April 19, 2010, 11:07:47 PM
Is killing America's finest in Iraq all right with you? Killing Iraqi people all right with you?
Having the government authorizing a National Day of Prayer is just flat wrong. Let me quote some quotes from from two founding fathers.
1797 Treaty of Tripoli. President John Adams. "The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Thomas Jefferson 4/11/1823. Letter to John Adams. "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter".
Bother me personally, NO. But the Christians are like camels. First the nose under the tent. Next the head in the tent, Next the whole body body in the tent. Next the camel gets afraid and runs away with the whole tent. This is one reason why the Christians want prayer in school, they brain wash the kids, before they are too old to resist.
I do not want to stop you from having a day of prayer. Just keep the government out of it. Remember what you said. You want a smaller government.
The Troll. :pray: :biggrin:
First of all, calling for a National Day of Prayer does NOT increase the size of government.....okay?
second, our first Continental Congress, believed it to be important, because THEY called for a National Day of Prayer
in 1775....So did Abraham Lincoln and many other Presidents.....They are NOT mandating everyone to be religious or become a Christian....They are simply asking THOSE who believe in the power of Prayer, do so. And to pray specifically for our Nation....You see, Troll, our forefathers for the most part were very "religious" folks....even Patrick Henry once said...
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death." In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."
also On July 4, 1821, President Adams said: "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this
"It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." Okay, so we can play the quote game all day.....now listen to me....here is MY personal take on this topic...I am a Christian, meaning I believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God....I also believe that the men who help developed our Nation was also believers in God....it is MY belief that God Blessed this Nation, because of these men....these guys felt the strong compassionate importance of God's role in their lives....but like everything else, they realized that all men had to have free will to accept God....it could NEVER be forced upon anyone.....all they could do is build a nation of Liberty and freedom....and give all it's people a place to worship if they desired too....but, they themselves realized the significance of keeping God as part of their lives and decision making...and they ALL realized the power of prayer.
President James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution said this: "We have staked the whole future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."
Consider these words of Thomas Jefferson which he wrote in the front flyleaf of his Bible: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator". Jefferson was also the chairman of the American Bible Society.
It is the same Congress that formed the "American Bible Society" immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence and that the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of the King James Bible for the people of this nation.
So Troll, I have my very strong reasons for believing the way I do on this subject.....Nobody is forcing any religion on anyone....there is no Laws that force anyone to believe a certain way....but, like it or not, the Bible and Prayer was a HUGE part of this Nations heritage.
(Please don't put any other words in my mouth other than what i have written.)
Hank
but, like it or not, the Bible and Prayer was a HUGE part of this Nations heritage.
Even the bible tells u how to treat your slaves, hell, Christ had slaves also, he also told women they were of no importance, and he didn't let those landless commoners vote for the president and vice president. That is how this nation started, shouldn't we be condoning the same?
Quote from: Moonglow on April 20, 2010, 12:06:23 PM
but, like it or not, the Bible and Prayer was a HUGE part of this Nations heritage.
Even the bible tells u how to treat your slaves, hell, Christ had slaves also, he also told women they were of no importance, and he didn't let those landless commoners vote for the president and vice president. That is how this nation started, shouldn't we be condoning the same?
You know, I don't give a damn what happened way back, when. This is the Twenty-First Century. The people from the bible and the founders of this country didn't know about germs, stem cells, automobiles, electrical power, atomic power, computers. science and on and on and on.
We can't base our lives on what people thought way, way back then. We know one thing, the founding fathers wanted freedom from religion and the Pope and the Church of England.
We can pretty well guess that most of the people in the bible, the multitude was illiterate, except the the religious who was conning them.
The Troll :pray: :salute:
I agree. let us burn some witches.
Quote from: The Troll on April 20, 2010, 01:33:23 PM
You know, I don't give a damn what happened way back, when. This is the Twenty-First Century. The people from the bible and the founders of this country didn't know about germs, stem cells, automobiles, electrical power, atomic power, computers. science and on and on and on.
We can't base our lives on what people thought way, way back then. We know one thing, the founding fathers wanted freedom from religion and the Pope and the Church of England.
We can pretty well guess that most of the people in the bible, the multitude was illiterate, except the the religious who was conning them.
The Troll :pray: :salute:
Our Constitution is/was the same back then as it is now...........the principals that are in it are the same then as they are now....it is not a "changing" document.....it is a timeless peice of art that was very well crafted.........and there is a reason for that........because they put God first and foremost in their lives as they was designing that document.
at least that is how I clearly see it.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 20, 2010, 03:11:17 PM
Our Constitution is/was the same back then as it is now...........the principals that are in it are the same then as they are now....it is not a "changing" document.....it is a timeless peice of art that was very well crafted.........and there is a reason for that........because they put God first and foremost in their lives as they was designing that document.
at least that is how I clearly see it.
:bsflag:
The Troll, enough said. :salute:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 20, 2010, 03:11:17 PM
Our Constitution is/was the same back then as it is now...........the principals that are in it are the same then as they are now....it is not a "changing" document.....it is a timeless peice of art that was very well crafted.........and there is a reason for that........
AHEM! Amendments. . .
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 20, 2010, 09:16:34 AM
In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."
Nope.
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/fake-quotations-congress-on-school-bibles/
Did you forget to check it out, Henry? I thought I taught you better.
And here's another TJ quote, just to even things up.
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others."
And, of course, I will give you the source.
http://www.faithofourfathers.net/jefferson.html
So it looks like Jefferson liked the philosophy, and thought the mysticism was a bunch of crap. I kind of agree.
Quote from: LOsborne on April 20, 2010, 07:32:56 PM
Nope.
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/fake-quotations-congress-on-school-bibles/ (http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/fake-quotations-congress-on-school-bibles/)
Did you forget to check it out, Henry? I thought I taught you better.
Wiki says...In November 1781, Hanson became the first President of Congress to be elected for an annual term as specified in the Articles of Confederation...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hanson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hanson)
Barton says so, so THAT is all you got?......not even a youtube? :razz: and there are many sources siting HE is a liar also.
and for the record, it was actually the Continental Congress that did this, right after the Declaration of Independence was created.. http://www.rockymountainchristian.org/HTML/onlinestudies/HISTORY.pdf
I have several sources to back up my claim......all you have is Barton's word?...who clearly misconstrued it?
c'mon lolly...I got hundreds of quotes to support my beliefs and my statements....there is plenty of evidence to support the Godly tone that our forefathers had... would you like me to post every States preamble to their constitution?......ALL of them mention their respects to the Lord, or God, or Almighty or a distinct reference to God....some of them even mentions Jesus in their Constitution.....
Those guys BELEIVED...THAT is all I am saying...and based upon those strong beliefs...I believe we was Blessed by God, to deliver us the most free and liberty driven country in world history...and why we became the greatest Nation this earth has known....and why I think we are on the downfall, because of our lack of faith in the Almighty.....but, that is just the ol Hawks conclusion.... ;) and one that I will NOT back down from. :yes: this is one area where I have NO doubts that I am 100% correct....and feel good about it. ;)
g'nite
Hank :)
God does not love our country anymore than he loves the least of the nations. We, as a nation are at our golden age. We have been the only super power now for over 20 years and still going strong. I, as a veteran, will never accept the thought that losers like to spread about the decline of the American Empire.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 20, 2010, 10:43:14 PM
... and for the record, it was actually the Continental Congress that did this, right after the Declaration of Independence was created..
Hawk, I would probably have given you a pass on this if you had said Continental Congress. It was that phrase
"In 1782, the United States Congress..." that blew the whistle. There was no United States Congress in 1782. A good con always gets the details right.
Quote from: LOsborne on April 21, 2010, 08:14:29 AM
Hawk, I would probably have given you a pass on this if you had said Continental Congress. It was that phrase "In 1782, the United States Congress..." that blew the whistle. There was no United States Congress in 1782. A good con always gets the details right.
lets not lose site of the point...........Bibles WAS distrubuted by "congress" .... AFTER the Dec of Indp was signed....THEY, at that time, seen the significance of the Bible and what it meant for the integrity of this nation.
Conjecture :razz:
What is so great about the bible.
A book of lies, porn, killings, sacrifices people, genocide, about a so called god who is absolutely crazy.
A god who was have made two people. Who put them in a garden with an apple tree and a snake. Told the woman not to eat the apples. The snake talked them into eating the apples. Then god threw them out into a cold, cold world with a curse upon them and all of the future generations. Then having himself killed on a cross to forgive them for eating the apples, which would have not been a sin if he hadn't make it a sin. Go figure. Let us :pray:
:bsflag:
The Troll :flag: :salute:
I get way more out of it than that.....as a mater of fact it is one of the most amazing books ever written....just because you chose not to TRY to understand it, makes me sad...but, that is just another choice we ALL have to make....
it has helped me through some hard times....and I thank God for it. :yes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 21, 2010, 02:12:46 PM
I get way more out of it than that.....as a mater of fact it is one of the most amazing books ever written....just because you chose not to TRY to understand it, makes me sad...but, that is just another choice we ALL have to make....
it has helped me through some hard times....and I thank God for it. :yes:
God, didn't write the Bible. King Constintine gather all of the religious leaders together, 400 years after Jesus died. In order to keep his people under his control, they made up the bible then and they left out a whole lot of books that we don't get to see.
Since then, the bible has been rewritten and rewritten and exists to day in over 100 different ways. It wasn't written by God.
The Troll :deadhorse:
well okay then!!...
Facts are like a recipe...toss in a lil' BS and they both become contaminated and more than a lil' difficult to swallow.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 20, 2010, 03:11:17 PM
Our Constitution is/was the same back then as it is now...........the principals that are in it are the same then as they are now....it is not a "changing" document.....it is a timeless peice of art that was very well crafted.........and there is a reason for that........because they put God first and foremost in their lives as they was designing that document.
at least that is how I clearly see it.
Interesting. If that were indeed the case, one would think that ole' god would have found his way INTO the document. Last I checked, he's nowhere to be found. :wink:
Well it looks like the Obama administration is going to throw the wing-nuts a bone and appeal the ruling.
:rolleyes:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hefv3O3JxnnUE8B4RGl-25-VOtYAD9F8ANJ80
Quote from: Locutus on April 22, 2010, 04:44:16 PM
Well it looks like the Obama administration is going to throw the wing-nuts a bone and appeal the ruling.
:rolleyes:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hefv3O3JxnnUE8B4RGl-25-VOtYAD9F8ANJ80 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hefv3O3JxnnUE8B4RGl-25-VOtYAD9F8ANJ80)
Crabb ruled atheists and agnostics could sue because they were injured by being made to feel like outsiders on the National Day of Prayer.....what a crock of crap!! :rolleyes:
I actually agree that the excuse to sue is a crock of crap. HOWEVER, I do think that this whole statute is senseless and should never have been enacted in the first place. Xtians don't need the government endorsing their religion any more than the Muslims do. It's a bad idea all the way around. The government is and should be secular.
From the ruling:
"However, recognizing the importance of prayer to many people does not mean that the government may enact a statute in support of it, any more than the government may encourage citizens to fast during the month of Ramadan, attend a synagogue, purify themselves in a sweat lodge or practice rune magic. In fact, it is because the nature of prayer is so personal and can have such a powerful effect on a community that the government may not use its authority to try to influence an individual's decision whether and when to pray."
Also from the ruling:
"I understand that many may disagree with that conclusion and some may even view
it as a criticism of prayer or those who pray. That is unfortunate. A determination that the government may not endorse a religious message is not a determination that the message itself is harmful, unimportant or undeserving of dissemination. Rather, it is part of the effort to "carry out the Founders' plan of preserving religious liberty to the fullest extent possible in a pluralistic society." McCreary County, 545 U.S. at 882 (O'Connor, J., concurring). The same law that prohibits the government from declaring a National Day of Prayer also prohibits it from declaring a National Day of Blasphemy."
Now I've attached the complete ruling to this post, not that I think you'll even read it. I did, and found it to be well thought out and the case well made for the ruling that she handed down.
Locutus, I totally understand the technicalities that this case has. Enough so that this will probably be debated for years to come....I also agree that those who beleive in God does NOT need government endorsement to establish a "Day of Prayer".
My opinion is simply this. As a Christian, I see the value of those folks in this Nation who 'beleive' in prayer and who find it important to put God first and foremost. Those who find the significance of such an event. I also know that religion IS part of this Countries heritage. Presidents have turned to God and have publicly endoresed the significance of God and this country since the beginning of this Country. So, I have personal admiration at any politician, who sincerely WANT's to wear God on his/her shirt sleeves.. (as long as I think they are sincere)...and since I am a Christian, I cannot help but believe promoting God is GOOD for this country......but I honestly do understand where the controversy comes to play.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 23, 2010, 08:56:11 AM
Locutus, I totally understand the technicalities that this case has. Enough so that this will probably be debated for years to come....I also agree that those who beleive in God does NOT need government endorsement to establish a "Day of Prayer".
My opinion is simply this. As a Christian, I see the value of those folks in this Nation who 'beleive' in prayer and who find it important to put God first and foremost. Those who find the significance of such an event. I also know that religion IS part of this Countries heritage. Presidents have turned to God and have publicly endoresed the significance of God and this country since the beginning of this Country. So, I have personal admiration at any politician, who sincerely WANT's to wear God on his/her shirt sleeves.. (as long as I think they are sincere)...and since I am a Christian, I cannot help but believe promoting God is GOOD for this country......but I honestly do understand where the controversy comes to play.
It is so simple, just as plain as the nose of your face. You can do what, when you want. Your can pray yourself crazy. JUST KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF IT. What is it, that these people don't seen to understand. Keep the government out of their religiouns Bullshit. Just plain and simple. Leave us alone.
The Troll.
How does this bother YOU Troll...you say "leave us alone"..............but when it gets right down to it....How does having a National Day of Prayer hurt you?...........don't pray. :yes:
the bottom line is, it doesn't harm NO ONE!...but, means alot to millions.
read the constitution, it explains it.
Quote from: Moonglow on April 23, 2010, 02:17:53 PM
read the constitution, it explains it.
There is no establishment of religion.....there are simply promoting the general welfare of the people....asking those who WANT to Pray, that there will be one day set aside to pray....there is no MANDATE that everyon HAS to pray....simply recognizing something that our forefathers believed was significant....and asking those who want, to pray for this country....it does NOT violate anyone what so ever.
well then it shoulda been a day of national prayer without just a Judean Christian overtone.
Quote from: Moonglow on April 23, 2010, 02:36:22 PM
well then it shoulda been a day of national prayer without just a Judean Christian overtone.
all it does ask U.S. citizens "to turn to God in prayer and meditation"...it does not get specific...
well the I quess satanist are left out?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 23, 2010, 02:26:20 PM
There is no establishment of religion.....there are simply promoting the general welfare of the people....asking those who WANT to Pray, that there will be one day set aside to pray....there is no MANDATE that everyon HAS to pray....simply recognizing something that our forefathers believed was significant....and asking those who want, to pray for this country....it does NOT violate anyone what so ever.
Henry :groan: Tell me, more than just one, what prayers have you had answered and how may people have been saved from death by prayers, that couldn't be by just by chance. I awaiting, I am quite sure you have a lot. I sure never had seen one work. :pray: :pray:
I have ask three difference preachers if they ever had a religious experience. Not one said yes. Henry, have you ever had a religious experience and where were you and what we're you doing. I'm really interested. I wonder if the holy :ghost: as ever spoke to you. :yes: :yes: :wink:
The Troll :devil4:
Troll, I have had my very personal experiences that I do not need to share on here...we can go on and on about WHY God allows some things to happen, that we don't agree with....again, I have my extremely strong and passionate beliefs and this is another area, that we will have to agree to disagree....maybe some day we can meet over a cup of coffee somewhere and discuss a few issues face to face....I can never get my true thoughts to words as I would like them to be.....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 24, 2010, 12:34:00 PM
...I can never get my true thoughts to words as I would like them to be.....
None of us can. But Hank, while I disagree with you on many particulars, the general truth of your integrity and kind heart always shines through on your posts. Coyote agrees with me.
Quote from: LOsborne on April 24, 2010, 01:46:39 PM
None of us can. But Hank, while I disagree with you on many particulars, the general truth of your integrity and kind heart always shines through on your posts.
Some day, I might like that, No guns or knifes just :peace: Maybe I'll invite you to to the Lapel American Legion Post and I'll buy the best hand cut, hand breaded tenderloin in Indiana and if you drink, a beer and if you don't a coke.
The Troll :shots: :no1:
Quote from: The Troll on April 24, 2010, 01:56:11 PM
Some day, I might like that, No guns or knifes just :peace: Maybe I'll invite you to to the Lapel American Legion Post and I'll buy the best hand cut, hand breaded tenderloin in Indiana and if you drink, a beer and if you don't a coke.
The Troll :shots: :no1:
Troll, I love tenderloins and I love beer....I don't drink often, but nothing washes down pizza or a good tenderloin like a cold one...as long as you don't smack the crap out of me...it would be very cool. :yes: