a major civilization will last about 200 years...

[Palehorse]

You know Henry, after reading some of the research I posted here I've learned something myself. My perspective is in agreement with the likes of Thomas Paine, Franklin, Adams, and the like on many levels. Given that I am surprised you would quote these men as Christians when their personal beliefs closely mirror some of my own. 

Seriously though, I do agree with Franklin, Paine, and Adams. . . and I arrived at this place without ever having known they felt the same way. . . Until today!  Hummmmmm

[Palehorse]

Oh and for the record:

I was raised a Southern Baptist, baptized a Southern Baptist, converted as an adult to catholicism, attended a Christian University, and reached "enlightenment" via my formal education and studies of religion while there.

[Henry Hawk]

You know Henry, after reading some of the research I posted here I've learned something myself. My perspective is in agreement with the likes of Thomas Paine, Franklin, Adams, and the like on many levels. Given that I am surprised you would quote these men as Christians when their personal beliefs closely mirror some of my own. 

Seriously though, I do agree with Franklin, Paine, and Adams. . . and I arrived at this place without ever having known they felt the same way. . . Until today!  Hummmmmm

I thought of you also as I read about some of these guys PH.....and I never have referred to, at least, franklin and paine as Christians....I realize that...but, they DO believe in a creator.....and that is important also...imo....

but, that's funny, cause I DID think the same thing about your beliefs as these guys...

[Palehorse]

I thought of you also as I read about some of these guys PH.....and I never have referred to, at least, franklin and paine as Christians....I realize that...but, they DO believe in a creator.....and that is important also...imo....

but, that's funny, cause I DID think the same thing about your beliefs as these guys...

Guess we all should be careful about using all inclusive statements eh? 

[dan foster]

Thomas Jefferson -

President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican). He was also influenced by English Deists and has often been identified by historians as a Deist. He held many beliefs in common with Unitarians of the time period, and sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian. He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Source: "Jefferson's Religious Beliefs", by Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997

http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html

John Adams

John Adams is regarded as one of the most important Founding Fathers of the United States of America. Before becoming the second President of the United States, John Adams served as the Vice-President under President George Washington. Prior to that, John Adams was a signer of the Declaration of Independence as a delegate from Massachusetts.

President John Adams was a devout Unitarian, which was a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian denomination during the Colonial era.

He was identified as a Congregationalist by The Congregationalist Library. 1995 Information Please Almanac was cited as the source stating he was a later a Unitarian. (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

From: Peter Roberts, "John Adams" page in "God and Country" section of "Science Resources on the Net" website
http://www.adherents.com/people/pa/John_Adams.html


Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult.    Franklin, who normally preferred to contemplate the eternal in the privacy of his own home, had been invited by Jedediah Andrews to become a member of the Presbyterian church. He attended for five Sundays in a row. He became a pew holder and a contributor, but he nevertheless ceased to attend weekly services... In general, most Franklin scholars have found him to be quite moderate in his attitude toward religion. Typically, Alfred Owen Aldridge has described Franklin as a confirmed Deist, who, in contrast to more militant Deists like Tom Paine, did not attempt to "wither Christianity by ridicule or bludgeon it to death by argument."

Benjamin Franklin was identified as an Episcopalian by the Library of Congress. A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford was cited as the source stating he was later a Deist. (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

About March 1, 1790, [Franklin] wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion...:

    As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17.

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer/franklin/index.htm
http://www.adherents.com/people/pf/Benjamin_Franklin.html

Thomas Paine

With regard to his religious views, in The Age of Reason (begun in France in 1793), Paine stated:

    I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

    All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

He described himself as a "Deist" and commented:

    How different is [Christianity] to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

James Madison

James Madison Jr. (more commonly known simply as "James Madison") was the fourth President of the United States.

James Madison was one of only two U.S. Presidents (along with Washington) who signed the U.S. Constitution. James Madison also served as a U.S. Representative in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791).

James Madison was an Episcopalian.

James Madison attended St. John's Episcopal Church while he was President. Some sources classify Madison was a deist.

He was identified as an Episcopalian by the 1995 Information Please Almanac; A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford; and the Library of Congress. Memoirs & Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, IV, page 512 was cited as the source stating explicitly that Madison was a "theist." (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

http://www.adherents.com/people/pm/James_Madison.html

George Washington

President George Washington was an Episcopalian. He was a member of the Episcopal Church, the American province of the Anglican Communion, which is a branch of Christianity, and which is usually classified as Protestant.

Washington and the family he was raised in were originally Anglicans. The Episcopal Church was not officially founded as a separate province within Anglicanism until 1789, after the American colonies proclaimed independence from Great Britain. Prior to the American Revolutionary War, the Episcopal Church was part of the Church of England, so Washington was originally a member of the Church of England.

While he was President, Washington attended Christ Church (an Anglican/Episcopalian congregation) in Philadelphia.

George Washington has frequently been described as a "Deist." Washington is not known to have described himself using this word, nor is he known to have been been a member of any Deist organizations. Some writings by George Washington indicate Deist beliefs; other writings indicate non-Deist beliefs.

Although he was an Anglican and an Episcopalian, Washington reportedly did not take communion and was not considered an official "communicant" (full-fledged adult church member).

It is generally agreed upon that Washington's beliefs could be described as "deist" during at least part of his life. Deism for Washington, as with most historical figueres classifed as deists, was never an actual religious affiliation, but was a classification of theological belief. As nearly all major political figures from Washington's era can be described as "deists" if a sufficiently broad definition is used an if the correct quotations are selected, classifying Washington as a Deist may not by particularly useful or distinctive.

Although the Episcopal Church is the only denomination Washington ever attended with any regularlity, he was not particularly dedicated to the denomination nor did he have a strong Anglican or Episcopalian self-identity. During Washington's era there was no real notion that he was a "non-Christian," and his denominational affiliation certainly placed him well within "mainstream" Christianity at the time. But Washington's religious beliefs could be classified as relatively broad and non-specific. His disinterest or disbelief in some mainstream Protestant Christian beliefs have led later (usually partisan) commentators to label Washington as "non-Christian."

George Washington was identified as an Episcopalian by the 1995 Information Please Almanac; the Library of Congress; and A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford. Memoirs & Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, IV, page 512 was cited as the source stating that Washington was a "theist." (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

http://www.adherents.com/people/pw/George_Washington.html

I can produce similar quotes which indicate the founders disdain for religion and christianity specifically.  They do talk of a creator as none were atheists (except perhaps Jefferson).  So, we can quote back and forth forever, but it still doesn't make them christians.

I will only address jefferson.  Yes, he held the morality of jesus to a high esteem, but he denied that jesus was the son of god, or of any divine origins.  He called himself a christian, in the since he followed the doctrine, but rejected the mythology.  He was not a christian in any sense of the modern term.  He was a deist and I think we all agree on that one, at least.

Paine was the most anti-christian and his writing tell that story.  Jefferson is my personal hero, except for his racism.  He really is the father of this republic, in both the greatest and most tragic ways.

[IYT]

The Age Of Reason should be mandatory reading for public schools, IMO.

[dan foster]

The Age Of Reason should be mandatory reading for public schools, IMO.

And I think the bible should be, also.  As Penn Gillete put it; "we need more atheists". 

[Locutus]

but, the part you say "borrow and spend" as opposed to to "tax and spend"....prove that first of all.......

Bumpin' this ole' nugget just for you Henry.

White House Gives Details on Deficit Borrowing

[dan foster]

According to Tyler a major civilisation last about 200 years...
   
In this period it goes from bondage to spiritual belief...
From belief to courage..
From courage to freedom...
From Freedom to prosperity...
From prosperity to selfishness,

From selfishness to complacency...
From complacency to apathy...
From apathy to dependency...
And from dependancy to bondage..

Full circle.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."- Alexander Tyler

Ah...no shit.  Greece was a democracy and failed in the end.  That is why our Constitutional Republic may outlast any notion of a democracy; we are not, no matter how badly the religious wrong among us want this to be a democracy where their majority can trample all over the rest of us demanding we BE a christian nation.  This is a repeat from earlier and, yes, I am belaboring it.