a major civilization will last about 200 years...

[Locutus]

Yes, but this was during a time in civilization when "God" was an instrument of scare tactics, and humanity was still very much open to it's negative impact.

Unfortunately, I don't think much has changed in that regard. 

[dan foster]

I can out quote you anyday of the weak..

it is divinely obvious....you can talk as powerful as you want.........it is all very simple.........and yet you make it the way you want it.........

I'm not going to post the quotes, but it is sooo clear to their point of faith.............THEY WERE MEN OF FAITH........that's all that needs said...

I stand by my statements.  The leadership that most refer to as "our founders", and I am talking only about the leadership that put it all together, were deists, and that list includes:

Thomas Jefferson
John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Paine
James Madison
George Washington

Now, I will trade you these six names for all the other couple of hundred.  You might even find a document that claims these folks belonged to a certain church, or even that they were adherents to one, but they were deists, not christians.  The christians lost in their bid to inject their religion into the efforts of these men, just as they had failed to establish christian states.  They lost, all of us won.

Now, if you are using these folks' deism to show they were "men of faith", that's fine.  But don't try equating their so called "faith" with christianity.  No way to do that.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

[Henry Hawk]

Now, if you are using these folks' deism to show they were "men of faith", that's fine.  But don't try equating their so called "faith" with christianity.  No way to do that.

I have NO problem with that............they were STILL men of faith and beleived in a Higher Power........which, was responsible for the building of this Nation....based on principals laid out predominatly by the Bible....

I understand that our Government is NOT a Religion.....but those who designed it were "men of faith" and I think that they felt "faith" was important part of keeping our government and Nation....successfull....

I know they did not make it PART of the signed papers.........I don't think they would comprehind a time would come when people would outright deny the existence of our creator........and want it removed from this countries heritage........

and I, being a believer, believe that the blessings that once bestowed this country are dwendling away, because of the lack of faith from our lawmakers....

[dan foster]

I have NO problem with that............they were STILL men of faith and beleived in a Higher Power........which, was responsible for the building of this Nation....based on principals laid out predominatly by the Bible....

Wow, you were almost there and then go and tag on something totally out of place.  Not only were they not christians, they didn't believe in the god of abraham and "his" word, the bible.  No, the founding principles are secular.  Don't you get that?

Now, as for the "blessings that once bestowed this country are dwendling away", to me is a bit myopic.  If you mean slavery, brutality to the natives, civil rights for only free white men, etc, then you should be ashamed. 

If that isn't what you had in mind ( ), then please tell me what blessings on this great nation have been "dwendling away"

We live in the best times ever, for most people.  Our standard of living is far superior than earlier when the simplest of colds could be a death sentence, especially for children.  We no longer use bibles in schools to learn how to read, so nobody walks around saying thee and thine, and that crap  , and our morality if far superior to any earlier times in this country.  So, please tell me what we have lost.

[Palehorse]

Name of Signer / State / Religious Affiliation
Daniel Carroll    Maryland    Catholic
Thomas Fitzsimons    Pennsylvania    Catholic
Roger Sherman    Connecticut    Congregationalist
Nathaniel Gorham    Massachusetts    Congregationalist
John Langdon    New Hampshire    Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman    New Hampshire    Congregationalist
Abraham Baldwin    Georgia    Congregationalist; Episcopalian
William Samuel Johnson    Connecticut    Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Madison Jr.    Virginia    Episcopalian
George Read    Delaware    Episcopalian
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer    Maryland    Episcopalian
David Brearly    New Jersey    Episcopalian
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr.    North Carolina    Episcopalian
Robert Morris    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian
John Rutledge    South Carolina    Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney    South Carolina    Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney    South Carolina    Episcopalian
Pierce Butler    South Carolina    Episcopalian
George Washington    Virginia    Episcopalian
Benjamin Franklin    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian (Deist)
William Blount    North Carolina    Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Wilson    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian; Presbyteran
Rufus King    Massachusetts    Episcopalian; Congregationalist
Jacob Broom    Delaware    Lutheran
William Few    Georgia    Methodist
Richard Bassett    Delaware    Methodist
Gunning Bedford Jr.    Delaware    Presbyterian
James McHenry    Maryland    Presbyterian
William Livingston    New Jersey    Presbyterian
William Paterson    New Jersey    Presbyterian
Hugh Williamson    North Carolina    Presbyterian
Jared Ingersoll    Pennsylvania    Presbyterian
Alexander Hamilton    New York    Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian
Jonathan Dayton    New Jersey    Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Blair    Virginia    Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Dickinson    Delaware    Quaker; Episcopalian
George Clymer    Pennsylvania    Quaker; Episcopalian
Thomas Mifflin    Pennsylvania    Quaker; Lutheran

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html#multiple

[Henry Hawk]

Thanks PH for posting that site,     I think I have been there before, it is very interesting...and quite clear about WHO was Christian and WHO wasn't....

to me, that says alot....

[Henry Hawk]

We live in the best times ever, for most people.  Our standard of living is far superior than earlier when the simplest of colds could be a death sentence, especially for children.  We no longer use bibles in schools to learn how to read, so nobody walks around saying thee and thine, and that crap  , and our morality if far superior to any earlier times in this country.  So, please tell me what we have lost.

I think we are seeing a breakdown in what is referred to as family values....

Here are some observations by me:

1) divorces are as common as speeding tickets...
2) marriage is not as sacred as it once was....living together is the thing to do...
3) promiscuous lifestyles are a way of life and on blasted the TV's and Movies all day long....
4) abortions are as simple as going to the dentist.........
5) life is by far in the fast lane.......
6) parents working two jobs to keep up with the jones, leaving kids to be raised by others or on their own at a much earlier age...
7) mothers raising kids without dads is extremely common....
our political system is at an all time low..(doesnt seem possible, i know)...the hatred between the two parties is atrocious...


then throw in the Immigration Issues...the GWOT issues...the healthcare issues...the Government Waste....the Gov Spending....

you say our standard of living is better than ever...............I may somewhat disagree with you....TRUE, the common cold isn't killing us,
but, AIDS and HIV and Cancer from this and Cancer from that.....Gang Killings....

to me, if we would all obey Gods word...and live according to His rules He gave us....( i know that could never happen ) but, things would NOT be as dismall as they are now.....IN MY HUMBLE OPINION...

[Palehorse]

Thomas Jefferson -

President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican). He was also influenced by English Deists and has often been identified by historians as a Deist. He held many beliefs in common with Unitarians of the time period, and sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian. He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Source: "Jefferson's Religious Beliefs", by Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997

http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html

John Adams

John Adams is regarded as one of the most important Founding Fathers of the United States of America. Before becoming the second President of the United States, John Adams served as the Vice-President under President George Washington. Prior to that, John Adams was a signer of the Declaration of Independence as a delegate from Massachusetts.

President John Adams was a devout Unitarian, which was a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian denomination during the Colonial era.

He was identified as a Congregationalist by The Congregationalist Library. 1995 Information Please Almanac was cited as the source stating he was a later a Unitarian. (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

From: Peter Roberts, "John Adams" page in "God and Country" section of "Science Resources on the Net" website
http://www.adherents.com/people/pa/John_Adams.html


Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult.    Franklin, who normally preferred to contemplate the eternal in the privacy of his own home, had been invited by Jedediah Andrews to become a member of the Presbyterian church. He attended for five Sundays in a row. He became a pew holder and a contributor, but he nevertheless ceased to attend weekly services... In general, most Franklin scholars have found him to be quite moderate in his attitude toward religion. Typically, Alfred Owen Aldridge has described Franklin as a confirmed Deist, who, in contrast to more militant Deists like Tom Paine, did not attempt to "wither Christianity by ridicule or bludgeon it to death by argument."

Benjamin Franklin was identified as an Episcopalian by the Library of Congress. A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford was cited as the source stating he was later a Deist. (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

About March 1, 1790, [Franklin] wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion...:

    As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17.

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer/franklin/index.htm
http://www.adherents.com/people/pf/Benjamin_Franklin.html

Thomas Paine

With regard to his religious views, in The Age of Reason (begun in France in 1793), Paine stated:

    I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

    All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

He described himself as a "Deist" and commented:

    How different is [Christianity] to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

James Madison

James Madison Jr. (more commonly known simply as "James Madison") was the fourth President of the United States.

James Madison was one of only two U.S. Presidents (along with Washington) who signed the U.S. Constitution. James Madison also served as a U.S. Representative in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791).

James Madison was an Episcopalian.

James Madison attended St. John's Episcopal Church while he was President. Some sources classify Madison was a deist.

He was identified as an Episcopalian by the 1995 Information Please Almanac; A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford; and the Library of Congress. Memoirs & Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, IV, page 512 was cited as the source stating explicitly that Madison was a "theist." (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

http://www.adherents.com/people/pm/James_Madison.html

George Washington

President George Washington was an Episcopalian. He was a member of the Episcopal Church, the American province of the Anglican Communion, which is a branch of Christianity, and which is usually classified as Protestant.

Washington and the family he was raised in were originally Anglicans. The Episcopal Church was not officially founded as a separate province within Anglicanism until 1789, after the American colonies proclaimed independence from Great Britain. Prior to the American Revolutionary War, the Episcopal Church was part of the Church of England, so Washington was originally a member of the Church of England.

While he was President, Washington attended Christ Church (an Anglican/Episcopalian congregation) in Philadelphia.

George Washington has frequently been described as a "Deist." Washington is not known to have described himself using this word, nor is he known to have been been a member of any Deist organizations. Some writings by George Washington indicate Deist beliefs; other writings indicate non-Deist beliefs.

Although he was an Anglican and an Episcopalian, Washington reportedly did not take communion and was not considered an official "communicant" (full-fledged adult church member).

It is generally agreed upon that Washington's beliefs could be described as "deist" during at least part of his life. Deism for Washington, as with most historical figueres classifed as deists, was never an actual religious affiliation, but was a classification of theological belief. As nearly all major political figures from Washington's era can be described as "deists" if a sufficiently broad definition is used an if the correct quotations are selected, classifying Washington as a Deist may not by particularly useful or distinctive.

Although the Episcopal Church is the only denomination Washington ever attended with any regularlity, he was not particularly dedicated to the denomination nor did he have a strong Anglican or Episcopalian self-identity. During Washington's era there was no real notion that he was a "non-Christian," and his denominational affiliation certainly placed him well within "mainstream" Christianity at the time. But Washington's religious beliefs could be classified as relatively broad and non-specific. His disinterest or disbelief in some mainstream Protestant Christian beliefs have led later (usually partisan) commentators to label Washington as "non-Christian."

George Washington was identified as an Episcopalian by the 1995 Information Please Almanac; the Library of Congress; and A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford. Memoirs & Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, IV, page 512 was cited as the source stating that Washington was a "theist." (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

http://www.adherents.com/people/pw/George_Washington.html

[Palehorse]

I think we are seeing a breakdown in what is referred to as family values....

Here are some observations by me:

1) divorces are as common as speeding tickets...
2) marriage is not as sacred as it once was....living together is the thing to do...
3) promiscuous lifestyles are a way of life and on blasted the TV's and Movies all day long....
4) abortions are as simple as going to the dentist.........
5) life is by far in the fast lane.......
6) parents working two jobs to keep up with the jones, leaving kids to be raised by others or on their own at a much earlier age...
7) mothers raising kids without dads is extremely common....
our political system is at an all time low..(doesnt seem possible, i know)...the hatred between the two parties is atrocious...

then throw in the Immigration Issues...the GWOT issues...the healthcare issues...the Government Waste....the Gov Spending....

you say our standard of living is better than ever...............I may somewhat disagree with you....TRUE, the common cold isn't killing us,
but, AIDS and HIV and Cancer from this and Cancer from that.....Gang Killings....

. . .

Not so much a breakdown in as much as it is a growth of greed and desire for power from my perspective. No one is satisfied with life or what they have; always wanting more, more, more!

From my perspective religion has not materialized as a means of spiritual or moral support, but rather an instrument utilized by humanity to bring validation to its inherent drive for wealth and power.

Religion presents an obstacle of sorts toward the continuing progression of medical science and an impediment to its ability to find the cures for what ails us.

[Henry Hawk]

Thomas Jefferson -

President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican). He was also influenced by English Deists and has often been identified by historians as a Deist. He held many beliefs in common with Unitarians of the time period, and sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian. He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Source: "Jefferson's Religious Beliefs", by Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997

http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson.html

John Adams

John Adams is regarded as one of the most important Founding Fathers of the United States of America. Before becoming the second President of the United States, John Adams served as the Vice-President under President George Washington. Prior to that, John Adams was a signer of the Declaration of Independence as a delegate from Massachusetts.

President John Adams was a devout Unitarian, which was a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian denomination during the Colonial era.

He was identified as a Congregationalist by The Congregationalist Library. 1995 Information Please Almanac was cited as the source stating he was a later a Unitarian. (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

From: Peter Roberts, "John Adams" page in "God and Country" section of "Science Resources on the Net" website
http://www.adherents.com/people/pa/John_Adams.html


Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult.    Franklin, who normally preferred to contemplate the eternal in the privacy of his own home, had been invited by Jedediah Andrews to become a member of the Presbyterian church. He attended for five Sundays in a row. He became a pew holder and a contributor, but he nevertheless ceased to attend weekly services... In general, most Franklin scholars have found him to be quite moderate in his attitude toward religion. Typically, Alfred Owen Aldridge has described Franklin as a confirmed Deist, who, in contrast to more militant Deists like Tom Paine, did not attempt to "wither Christianity by ridicule or bludgeon it to death by argument."

Benjamin Franklin was identified as an Episcopalian by the Library of Congress. A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford was cited as the source stating he was later a Deist. (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

About March 1, 1790, [Franklin] wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion...:

    As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17.

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer/franklin/index.htm
http://www.adherents.com/people/pf/Benjamin_Franklin.html

Thomas Paine

With regard to his religious views, in The Age of Reason (begun in France in 1793), Paine stated:

    I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

    All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

He described himself as a "Deist" and commented:

    How different is [Christianity] to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

James Madison

James Madison Jr. (more commonly known simply as "James Madison") was the fourth President of the United States.

James Madison was one of only two U.S. Presidents (along with Washington) who signed the U.S. Constitution. James Madison also served as a U.S. Representative in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791).

James Madison was an Episcopalian.

James Madison attended St. John's Episcopal Church while he was President. Some sources classify Madison was a deist.

He was identified as an Episcopalian by the 1995 Information Please Almanac; A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford; and the Library of Congress. Memoirs & Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, IV, page 512 was cited as the source stating explicitly that Madison was a "theist." (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

http://www.adherents.com/people/pm/James_Madison.html

George Washington

President George Washington was an Episcopalian. He was a member of the Episcopal Church, the American province of the Anglican Communion, which is a branch of Christianity, and which is usually classified as Protestant.

Washington and the family he was raised in were originally Anglicans. The Episcopal Church was not officially founded as a separate province within Anglicanism until 1789, after the American colonies proclaimed independence from Great Britain. Prior to the American Revolutionary War, the Episcopal Church was part of the Church of England, so Washington was originally a member of the Church of England.

While he was President, Washington attended Christ Church (an Anglican/Episcopalian congregation) in Philadelphia.

George Washington has frequently been described as a "Deist." Washington is not known to have described himself using this word, nor is he known to have been been a member of any Deist organizations. Some writings by George Washington indicate Deist beliefs; other writings indicate non-Deist beliefs.

Although he was an Anglican and an Episcopalian, Washington reportedly did not take communion and was not considered an official "communicant" (full-fledged adult church member).

It is generally agreed upon that Washington's beliefs could be described as "deist" during at least part of his life. Deism for Washington, as with most historical figueres classifed as deists, was never an actual religious affiliation, but was a classification of theological belief. As nearly all major political figures from Washington's era can be described as "deists" if a sufficiently broad definition is used an if the correct quotations are selected, classifying Washington as a Deist may not by particularly useful or distinctive.

Although the Episcopal Church is the only denomination Washington ever attended with any regularlity, he was not particularly dedicated to the denomination nor did he have a strong Anglican or Episcopalian self-identity. During Washington's era there was no real notion that he was a "non-Christian," and his denominational affiliation certainly placed him well within "mainstream" Christianity at the time. But Washington's religious beliefs could be classified as relatively broad and non-specific. His disinterest or disbelief in some mainstream Protestant Christian beliefs have led later (usually partisan) commentators to label Washington as "non-Christian."

George Washington was identified as an Episcopalian by the 1995 Information Please Almanac; the Library of Congress; and A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford. Memoirs & Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, IV, page 512 was cited as the source stating that Washington was a "theist." (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).

http://www.adherents.com/people/pw/George_Washington.html

[/size]


Dan?....

[Henry Hawk]

Religion presents an obstacle of sorts toward the continuing progression of medical science and an impediment to its ability to find the cures for what ails us.

It also presents a moral guidline to a possible un-ethical progress in medical science and the ethical values possibly expedites cures and proceedures that saves lives....

[Palehorse]

It also presents a moral guidline to a possible un-ethical progress in medical science and the ethical values possibly expedites cures and proceedures that saves lives....

Possibly unethical? By what standards? Religious? Hogwash! If "He" didn't want us there would "He" not prevent us from getting there?

[Henry Hawk]

Possibly unethical? By what standards? Religious? Hogwash! If "He" didn't want us there would "He" not prevent us from getting there?

Free Choice.....God laid out the plan for us to follow....it is up to us to decide to do it or not.............whether He interferes 'devinely' or not?....Only God knows...but, the ethics He preferrs us to follow ARE all spelled out....

[followsthewolf]

To quote the immortal bard Flip Wilson:

"Da Debbil made me do it!"

[Palehorse]

Free Choice.....God laid out the plan for us to follow....it is up to us to decide to do it or not.............whether He interferes 'devinely' or not?....Only God knows...but, the ethics He preferrs us to follow ARE all spelled out....

There's that pesky free will thingy again! 

I am assuming that in stating "God's Plan" you are referring to scripture; this is at best a red herring because it is compiled, edited, and assembled by those with a vested interest in its interpretation. It is corrupted and incomplete, with many passages taken out of context due to its incompleteness.

I wish that someone would take all of the "letters and prophesies" that were authored and assemble them ALL into one work. I believe then and only then can humankind access the true value of these works. Until then it will remain an instrument of humankind; written, edited, and assembled with one objective in mind - personal wealth and power.