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Apple vs. FBI

Started by Locutus, February 18, 2016, 01:41:27 PM

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Henry Hawk

#15
February 18, 2016, 09:07:58 PM
All I can say is if another attack would happen and it could have been prevented by the FBI, I would be very very pissed off.
It is sad we live in a world where we must push the envelope of our freedoms because of a lack of trust of our government.
And btw I am not perfectly okay with compromising our liberty but I am in to keeping my family safe despite anything.
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

Exterminator

#16
February 19, 2016, 08:42:17 AM
Quote from: Locutus on February 18, 2016, 08:47:53 PM
BTW, the "I'm not doing anything wrong so I have nothing to worry about" defense doesn't hold water with anyone who truly thinks about it. 

Just in case you want to trot that out.  :wink:

Nice preemptive strike!   :biggrin:
Arguing with Christians is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it's victorious.

The truth is slow, but relentless. Over time it becomes irresistible.

Exterminator

#17
February 19, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on February 18, 2016, 09:07:58 PM
All I can say is if another attack would happen...I am in to keeping my family safe despite anything.

Another attack will happen but your family is safe...I doubt Markleville will be a target.  LOL!
Arguing with Christians is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it's victorious.

The truth is slow, but relentless. Over time it becomes irresistible.

Locutus

#18
February 19, 2016, 12:02:21 PM
Quote from: Exterminator on February 19, 2016, 08:42:17 AM
Nice preemptive strike!   :biggrin:

Well that's the typical response of some who aren't worried about government overreach.  ;D
One of the gravest dangers to the survival of our republic is an ignorant electorate routinely feeding at the trough of propaganda.   -- Locutus

"We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically."  -- Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Henry Hawk

#19
February 19, 2016, 12:11:44 PM
Quote from: Locutus on February 19, 2016, 12:02:21 PM
Well that's the typical response of some who aren't worried about government overreach.  ;D

Just to be clear, I never ONCE said I wasn't worried about government overreach.... ;D  That is what you just assume.
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

Locutus

#20
February 19, 2016, 12:15:23 PM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on February 19, 2016, 12:11:44 PM
Just to be clear, I never ONCE said I wasn't worried about government overreach.... ;D  That is what you just assume.

Well that's good.  That makes you better than a lot of people.  :thumbsup:
One of the gravest dangers to the survival of our republic is an ignorant electorate routinely feeding at the trough of propaganda.   -- Locutus

"We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically."  -- Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Henry Hawk

#21
February 19, 2016, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: Exterminator on February 19, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
Another attack will happen but your family is safe...I doubt Markleville will be a target.  LOL!

and i'm sure zionsville is safe too...
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

Exterminator

#22
February 19, 2016, 01:15:33 PM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on February 19, 2016, 12:31:44 PM
and i'm sure zionsville is safe too...

Which is precisely why I am not willing to trade my liberty for the illusion of security.
Arguing with Christians is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it's victorious.

The truth is slow, but relentless. Over time it becomes irresistible.

Locutus

#23
February 19, 2016, 01:29:28 PM
The problem with this whole situation is that the average non-tech Joe doesn't have a clue how dangerous a ruling in favor of the FBI would be. 

Reference the "I'm not doing anything wrong so I have nothing to worry about" that I mentioned above.   That thinking is quite prevalent. 
One of the gravest dangers to the survival of our republic is an ignorant electorate routinely feeding at the trough of propaganda.   -- Locutus

"We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically."  -- Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Henry Hawk

#24
February 19, 2016, 01:44:20 PM
Quote from: Locutus on February 19, 2016, 01:29:28 PM
The problem with this whole situation is that the average non-tech Joe doesn't have a clue how dangerous a ruling in favor of the FBI would be. 

Reference the "I'm not doing anything wrong so I have nothing to worry about" that I mentioned above.   That thinking is quite prevalent. 
I 1000% get it. My take is more of, that is really sucks that we cannot trust our government to merely keep everyone safe.  The problem is, they keep wanting more and more.  They would not be satisfied with that one cell phone, they want access to as much as possible.

Until that day comes, and it will, when 1000's are killed once again........could we have stopped it?  Did we do everything possible to prevent it?

Sure, living in Markleville or Zionsville are pretty sure bets we will be safe.......but, what about those in area's that are huge targets?

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 - It all makes sense to me now...


"The future ain't what it used to be."– Yogi Berra

"Square roots are rarely found on any plant." FTW

Exterminator

#25
February 19, 2016, 02:06:33 PM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on February 19, 2016, 01:44:20 PM
Until that day comes, and it will, when 1000's are killed once again........could we have stopped it?  Did we do everything possible to prevent it?

Had the government been able to continue collecting call metadata, they would need only the phone number from their phones to be able to identify everyone with whom the shooters had been in contact.
Arguing with Christians is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it's victorious.

The truth is slow, but relentless. Over time it becomes irresistible.

Locutus

#26
February 19, 2016, 02:29:20 PM
Quote from: Exterminator on February 19, 2016, 02:06:33 PM
Had the government been able to continue collecting call metadata, they would need only the phone number from their phones to be able to identify everyone with whom the shooters had been in contact.

Unless, of course, they were using some sort of text messaging app that employs end to end encryption.  Metadata wouldn't have helped in that situation. 

From what I've read, ISIS and its associates are employing this particular app to communicate amongst themselves. 

https://telegram.org/

Telegram is a cloud-based instant messaging service. Telegram clients exist for both mobile (Android, iOS, Windows Phone, Ubuntu Touch) and desktop systems (Windows, OS X, Linux).[10][12] Users can send messages and exchange photos, videos, stickers and files of any type up to 1.5 GB in size. Telegram also provides optional end-to-end encrypted messaging with self-destruct timers.

Telegram is supported by the Russian-born entrepreneur Pavel Durov,[13] who is now living in exile.[14] Its client-side code is open-source software, whereas its server-side code is closed-sourced and proprietary. The service also provides APIs to independent developers.
One of the gravest dangers to the survival of our republic is an ignorant electorate routinely feeding at the trough of propaganda.   -- Locutus

"We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically."  -- Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Locutus

#27
February 19, 2016, 02:43:41 PM
Quote from: Henry Hawk on February 19, 2016, 01:44:20 PM
I 1000% get it. My take is more of, that is really sucks that we cannot trust our government to merely keep everyone safe.  The problem is, they keep wanting more and more.  They would not be satisfied with that one cell phone, they want access to as much as possible.


Bingo!  :yes:
One of the gravest dangers to the survival of our republic is an ignorant electorate routinely feeding at the trough of propaganda.   -- Locutus

"We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically."  -- Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Y

#28
February 19, 2016, 03:51:48 PM
First point I'd like to make is that Apple, Google, etc. don't have a leg to stand on to whine about privacy and the collection of data etc. as they're only being hypocritical since they collect your personal data/info out the wazoo - in most situations without your knowledge or your informed consent.

I'd love to see just how fast they'd back down and shut up should .gov say "okay, you don't want the government to collect data, so if government can't, you can't collect any data either."

IMHO, if any entity has a preeminent interest in certain data collection, it's certainly our government and NOT corporations.
©  Whamma-Jamma - all rights reserved

Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.  ;)

"You've probably noticed that opinion pollsters go out of their way to include as many morons as possible in surveys ... I think it's dangerous to inform morons about what their fellow morons are thinking. It only reinforces their opinions. And the one thing worse than a moron with an opinion is lots of them." -- Scott Adams

In other words: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.  ;)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

"Hitler is gone, but if the majority of our fellow citizens are more susceptible to the slogans of fear and race hatred than to those of peaceful accommodation and mutual respect among human beings, our political liberties remain at the mercy of any eloquent and unscrupulous demagogue." -- S. I. Hayakawa

Y

#29
February 19, 2016, 04:19:51 PM
Second point is that the long standing legal principle of 'Obstruction of Justice' comes into play here.  Obstruction may consist of any attempt to hinder the discovery, apprehension, conviction or punishment of anyone who has committed a crime.  One cannot hinder the administration of justice by their actions or inactions. 

Apple has a duty to aid, and not to hinder law enforcement. 

Apple seems to be simply trying to play on peoples emotions and argue this case in the media for public support in the courts.
©  Whamma-Jamma - all rights reserved

Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.  ;)

"You've probably noticed that opinion pollsters go out of their way to include as many morons as possible in surveys ... I think it's dangerous to inform morons about what their fellow morons are thinking. It only reinforces their opinions. And the one thing worse than a moron with an opinion is lots of them." -- Scott Adams

In other words: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.  ;)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

"Hitler is gone, but if the majority of our fellow citizens are more susceptible to the slogans of fear and race hatred than to those of peaceful accommodation and mutual respect among human beings, our political liberties remain at the mercy of any eloquent and unscrupulous demagogue." -- S. I. Hayakawa
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