Indiana's Religious Freedom Legislation

[Locutus]

Right-wing hypocrites are now coming out in support of refusing to provide services to the LGBT community as a way to get rich off of their fellow bigots.

LMAO!!!  Someone just posted this on his Facebook page.  Squeaky clean Christian he is.  </sarcasm>

https://opencourtrecords.org/case.php?id=11259&hc_location=ufi

Defendant   Case Number   Language
Klawiter, Brian Warren    1998-CM-0004393    
Mailing address   Race   Sex   Height
660 Summerset Dr
Jenison , MI 49428          
DOB   Weight   Hair   Eyes
01/07/1980          
Attorney   Firm   Attorney Phone   Judge
Amy Preston    Sherlund, Faber & Vanmeter PLLC    6167743020    Benjamin H. Logan

Charges
Offense Date   Date Closed   Offense Description   Disposition   Disposition Date
11/10/1998    10/13/1999    Assault and Battery    Guilty    08/12/1999
11/10/1998    03/14/2001    Probation Violation    Guilty    03/14/2001

Date       Judge
11/20/1998    New Case Filed    Benjamin H. Logan
11/21/1998    See Previous Case ROA History    Benjamin H. Logan
10/13/1999    Found Guilty (9.132(1) Assault and Battery)    Benjamin H. Logan
02/14/2000    Hearing Scheduled (Probation OTSC 02/22/2000 11:00 AM)    Benjamin H. Logan
02/22/2000    Hearing result for Probation OTSC held on 02/22/2000 11:00 AM: Not Guilty Plea, schedule a PV hearing in front of BHL.    Benjamin H. Logan
02/22/2000    appointed an attorney for pv hearing per BHL    Benjamin H. Logan
03/01/2000    Court Appointed Attorney Public defender Thomas Panik    Benjamin H. Logan
03/01/2000    Hearing Scheduled (Probation Hearing 03/06/2000 09:00 AM)    Benjamin H. Logan
03/01/2000    Notice To Appear Issued and Sent    Benjamin H. Logan
03/06/2000    Hearing result for Probation Hearing held on 03/06/2000 09:00 AM: Guilty Plea to the probation violation - 15 days in jail work release - prob cont'd plus 100 costs for the hearing - to be paid 3/6/00    Benjamin H. Logan
03/06/2000    @ Prob Hearing - Def was sentenced to 15 days work release plus $100 f/cc's    No Judge
03/07/2000    Hearing Scheduled (Review 05/30/2000 10:00 AM) Review to Janet for W/R.    No Judge
04/08/2000    WORK RELEASE COMPLETED PER PEGGY.    No Judge
06/29/2000    Hearing result for Review held on 05/30/2000 10:00 AM: Hearing Held - PER PEGGY @ KCJ, DEF. COMPLETED WORK RELEASE 15D.    No Judge
07/06/2000    Hearing Scheduled (Review 01/05/2001 09:00 AM) REV BOND REL    No Judge
08/02/2000    Hearing Scheduled (Review 12/21/2000 08:30 AM)    No Judge
09/20/2000    Petition and Order for Extension has been granted.    Benjamin H. Logan
09/20/2000    Petition for extension of probation for 12 months filed.    Benjamin H. Logan
12/26/2000    Hearing result for Review held on 12/21/2000 08:30 AM: Hearing Held    Benjamin H. Logan
01/04/2001    Hearing Scheduled (Review 11/23/2001 09:00 AM)    No Judge
01/08/2001    OTSC issued for Failure to Appear - Failure to Appear - Charge # 1, Assault and Battery Appearance date: 01/22/2001    
01/23/2001    OTSC issued for Failure to Appear - Failure to Appear - Charge # 1, Assault and Battery Appearance date: 02/06/2001    
02/13/2001    Hearing Scheduled (Probation OTSC 03/14/2001 10:45 AM)    Benjamin H. Logan
02/19/2001    OTSC issued for Failure to Appear - Failure to Appear - Charge # 1, Assault and Battery Appearance date: 03/05/2001    
03/14/2001    Hearing result for Probation OTSC held on 03/14/2001 10:45 AM: Guilty Plea - prob revoked - def to serve 30 days in jail - work rel auth....def may report on 3-22-01 at 8:am    Benjamin H. Logan
03/14/2001    Case status changed: adjudicated    Benjamin H. Logan
03/14/2001    Found Guilty (666666 Probation Violation)    Benjamin H. Logan
03/14/2001    OTSC issued for Failure to Appear - Failure to Appear - Charge # 2, Probation Violation Appearance date: 03/28/2001    
03/15/2001    Petition and Order for Revocation has been issued.    Benjamin H. Logan
03/20/2001    Prob revocation signed 03/15/2001    Benjamin H. Logan
03/22/2001    DFT. REPORTED TO KCJ FOR 30D. FAXED JUDGMENT TO KCJ.    Benjamin H. Logan
03/22/2001    COM'D KCJ (30D.)    No Judge
04/05/2001    Hearing result for Review held on 11/23/2001 09:00 AM: Hearing cancelled    No Judge
04/05/2001    Case status changed: closed    No Judge
04/17/2001    WORK CREW HOURS (25.5) SUSPENDED DUE TO PROBATION REVOCATION (30 DAYS)    Benjamin H. Logan

[Henry Hawk]

What bothers me with this is, there are always going to be assholes.  It is EASY to find them. Just because you find Christian Assholes, doesn't mean ALL Christians are ASSHOLES.

There are MILLIONS of Christians, who are not assholes.  But every time one f's up...you guys jump on it.  Forget about the Christians who do wonderful things EVERY DAY, who give their time and money to help others.

I find it very offensive to do what you do.  but, big fucking deal huh...

[Locutus]

The problem you have there Hank is that the asshole Christians are the vocal ones who do things just like this asshole is doing.

He may have some ramifications that he hasn't thought of though.  Cummins, which I assume is a supplier that he needs, is distancing themselves from him and has asked him to stop using their logo.  Also, he's operating that business without a license from the city of Grand Rapids due to some really quirky thinking.

"This is a blatant and intentioned violation of the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution," Klawiter told the council on Jan. 26. "I dispute your lawful ability to do what you claim. I will not sign the application. I cannot and will not give up my civil rights, especially when requested by a government entity for which the Constitution was designed to limit the power of.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/04/no_business_license_for_auto_s.html

[Locutus]

Exterminator has pointed this out before I believe:

[Henry Hawk]

The problem you have there Hank is that the asshole Christians are the vocal ones who do things just like this asshole is doing.

It works both ways....there are vocal leftists that stir the pot when it doesn't need stirred.  The bottom line is, this buttcrust will probably ruin himself.  The majority of the people are good.  They get it, even if they disagree with others.........the free enterprise system will prevail. 

[Henry Hawk]

Exterminator has pointed this out before I believe:

And I agree, but because of the whacko liberal extremists who WE think fits that description to a tee!  It works both way dude.

[Bo D]

What bothers me with this is, there are always going to be assholes.  It is EASY to find them. Just because you find Christian Assholes, doesn't mean ALL Christians are ASSHOLES.

There are MILLIONS of Christians, who are not assholes.  But every time one f's up...you guys jump on it.  Forget about the Christians who do wonderful things EVERY DAY, who give their time and money to help others.

I find it very offensive to do what you do.  but, big fucking deal huh...

Valid points, Hank. But the problem remains one of discrimination. How many assholes are you willing to make excuses for before you, as a Christian, speak up and say it just isn't right to allow discrimination of any sort?

Do you look down at the bottom of the page on the link EX posted? There are even more stories on these scumbags ...

Pediatrician refuses to treat gay couple's child
Georgia florist won't serve gay couples
Ben Carson: Prison proves being gay is a choice.

[Exterminator]

Valid points, Hank. But the problem remains one of discrimination. How many assholes are you willing to make excuses for...

Which is what you typically do...

[Henry Hawk]

Valid points, Hank. But the problem remains one of discrimination. How many assholes are you willing to make excuses for before you, as a Christian, speak up and say it just isn't right to allow discrimination of any sort?

Do you look down at the bottom of the page on the link EX posted? There are even more stories on these scumbags ...

Pediatrician refuses to treat gay couple's child
Georgia florist won't serve gay couples
Ben Carson: Prison proves being gay is a choice.

We already have laws against discrimination.  These guys have substantially prove that any burdens they are against goes against any religious belief that they sincerely hold.  You just can't have an opinion and expect it to hold up in court.

Can you provide any evidence where people ARE BEING DISCRIMINATED against?  If there IS, I can promise you, the Christian community by large would NOT support them.  All the RFRA does is it simply allows religious people to challenge government activities that encroach on their beliefs.....PERIOD!

[Bo D]

We already have laws against discrimination.  These guys have substantially prove that any burdens they are against goes against any religious belief that they sincerely hold.  You just can't have an opinion and expect it to hold up in court.

Can you provide any evidence where people ARE BEING DISCRIMINATED against?  If there IS, I can promise you, the Christian community by large would NOT support them.  All the RFRA does is it simply allows religious people to challenge government activities that encroach on their beliefs.....PERIOD!

C'mon, Hank! you can do better than that. This mechanic asshole in Michigan isn't refusing service to gays over his religious beliefs. The man is a convicted felon! He's a bigot, pure and simple. And more and more of these cases are surfacing every day.

[Exterminator]

This mechanic asshole in Michigan isn't refusing service to gays over his religious beliefs.

Neither is anyone else.

From http://www.laweekly.com/music/henry-rollins-governor-mike-pence-threw-god-under-the-bus-5499649:

"I wasn't offended by the postings from those who stood up for the freedom to be prejudiced, even when they lacked the intellectual courage to come in through the front door and state their business, as the Westboro Baptist Church does. But even the WBC can't say what it really means. It should change the wording of its now famous slogan by replacing 'God' with 'I' and finally tell the truth, but it can't. No guts."

Another interesting observation from the article is that Pence had absolutely no plan to change the legislation despite the outcry of people not only in Indiana but across the country.  It was only when money entered the equation that he relented, proving definitively that it and not the citizens dictates the actions of our politicians.

[Henry Hawk]

C'mon, Hank! you can do better than that. This mechanic asshole in Michigan isn't refusing service to gays over his religious beliefs. The man is a convicted felon! He's a bigot, pure and simple. And more and more of these cases are surfacing every day.

Then he is discriminating and even if they don't sue him, his business WILL SUFFER.  Like I said, MOST people are good people and will not tolerate that shit.  Despite what you guys think of me, I would NEVER discriminate against ANYBODY.

[Bo D]

Then he is discriminating and even if they don't sue him, his business WILL SUFFER.  Like I said, MOST people are good people and will not tolerate that shit.  Despite what you guys think of me, I would NEVER discriminate against ANYBODY.

I sense that about you. So why do you defend those who do discriminate in the name of religion?

Why would ANY true Christian practice discrimination?

[Henry Hawk]

I sense that about you. So why do you defend those who do discriminate in the name of religion?

Why would ANY true Christian practice discrimination?

They don't.  At the same time, I feel there ARE INDEED EXCEPTIONS, when a person can be put into a compromising situation, where his/her religious values could be challenged....and it isn't a hateful thing, but merely a principled, religious value that they don't feel comfortable with in going against it.  (Did I word this correctly?)

Now, if you go back, I was NEVER, EVER a 100% supporter of the Pence Bill.  I even told Locutus, I felt FORCED to take a side, because of all the trashing that was going on.  My PERSONAL take is, Pence screwed up.  Not that I think it is a horrible bill, but rather one that we didn't necessarily HAVE to HAVE.  I don't think it was worth the ramifications it brought on.

By default, being the Conservative of the Zone, I felt a duty, to side with it,  ...and especially after all of the bandwagon facebookers, who took sides against it, just because of the Media's massive attack.  (Pence should have been able to "KNOW BETTER"....and NOT take on this bill, at least at this point of his career....it shows a lack of using common sense as a leader, imo)

I don't think he remotely saw this sort of backlash was coming.....or he thought he could muster through it, but he was wrong, and it is more than likely the end of his career...especially on a National Level.

[Locutus]

I saw this one coming an hour and a half ago when the question was first asked. 

Why would ANY true Christian practice discrimination?

They don't. 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing; this fallacy also applies to defining a term or criteria biasedly as to defend it from counterargument which can be identified as a biased, persuasive, or rhetorical definition. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X.