ARRA - Where are the jobs?

[Palehorse]

I'm waitin' on how the trickle up theory works.

I am in no way inclined to respond to convoluted logic. . . But you just keep waiting if that makes you happy.

[me]

Would that be considered a gottcha?  I really would like to know how the theory works.  How can taxing the people who create the jobs 55 to 60% of their earnings help? 

[Palehorse]

Would that be considered a gottcha?  I really would like to know how the theory works.  How can taxing the people who create the jobs 55 to 60% of their earnings help?

For one thing, by freeing up the poor folks of the burden of carrying the weight for those who are rich. For another by providing access to health care. . . And in no way is that a "gotcha" . Your logic doesn't hold water. It's illogical.*

The "tax" is to force them to provide health care for their workers; if they provide it they won't be paying it. Pretty simple really.

*(Taking into account you have a predisposition toward supporting the rich by partaking in vast quantities of their kool-aid.) 

[Palehorse]

Now, back to the jobs and ARRA-

So what the hell is being done with the funding if it is not being utilized to create jobs?

I hear that in some cases the funding has not been delivered. . .

I still want to know who is tracking the distribution and holding those officials on the local level accountable for the proper utilization of said funding?

[Henry Hawk]

For one thing, by freeing up the poor folks of the burden of carrying the weight for those who are rich. For another by providing access to health care. . . And in no way is that a "gotcha" . Your logic doesn't hold water. It's illogical.*

But this bill is going to force EVERYONE, eventually, to be on this program....why not fix the problem for the 20 million who need it....also, do you honestly think, that guys like you and I, will NOT have to pay for this, in some way or form...this is a tremendous amount of money, and not only will I end up losing my current HC...I'm pretty sure, it is going to find it's way into my billfold...PLUS, the risk of getting a worse medical attention....IE, cutting mamograms to every two years instead of every year....

[Palehorse]

But this bill is going to force EVERYONE, eventually, to be on this program....why not fix the problem for the 20 million who need it....also, do you honestly think, that guys like you and I, will NOT have to pay for this, in some way or form...this is a tremendous amount of money, and not only will I end up losing my current HC...I'm pretty sure, it is going to find it's way into my billfold...PLUS, the risk of getting a worse medical attention....IE, cutting mamograms to every two years instead of every year....

The number of Americans who need it number in excess of 46 million; including uninsured, under insured, and those who are uninsured due to a pre-existing condition. (Facts the health-care industry do not want you to be aware of).

The mammogram thing is a recommendation that is not being endorsed, but will be endorsed by the insurance industry; watch and see. They'll use it to weasel out of paying for your spouses annual examination and apply it toward your deductible if you are lucky.

That industry is full of shysters and scamming for profit head hunters who rob each and every one of us of our money each pay period. They reap in billions of dollars in profit, (50 billion from individuals receiving a huge battery of diagnostic tests and treatments in the last 2 months of their life from medicaid, last year alone), and they feed the media propaganda that is nothing more than scare tactics being utilized to herd the sheep. . . I trust them even less than I trust the government.

One cardiac event will cost you your home and all your possessions if you don't have coverage. Can any one of us afford a 30k / night stay in a cardiac care unit for 3 weeks? I doubt it. And even if you have coverage you'll be saddled with a huge bill despite it, once you recover, due to charges above and beyond what the insurance company calls "usual and customary".

The original bill addresses all of this and more. . .

[Henry Hawk]

The number of Americans who need it number in excess of 46 million;

and the 20 some million illegal aliens...are included in this number...and several million who can afford it, but have opted NOT to carry insurance....

[Palehorse]

and the 20 some million illegal aliens...are included in this number...and several million who can afford it, but have opted NOT to carry insurance....

[Henry Hawk]

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/20/the-myth-of-the-46-million

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/More-OpEd-Contributors/The_truth_behind_the_Census_Bureaus_insurance_figure.html

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/49586

I have plenty of reason to think YOUR BS meter should be used on yourself, Palehorse....

and for the billionth time...I WANT HC reform........I do not like the way it is working right now.....I just believe there are other ways, that is  less expensive, and keeps it in the free market arena, instead of the bastards in Washington calling ALL the shots...there is nothing in there about tort reform....or tax credits for those who choose to buy there own or companies getting credits to cover.........I hate taxes increasing on anyone, because once they are there, they rarely go away....

it was a gov study that decided that the mamogram was overused....and THAT is the fear many have right now.......2000 pages of stuff like that that is just now being uncovered...

and I am not bringing religion into this.....but, mandating abortion coverage should not be used by TAX paying citizens...that needs clarified....even if YOU think it is nobodys business.

again, I'm fortunate, but I still pay a small fortune out to HC every year...with five kids...so, I WANT something to get done.....I'm just not on board with this one....and there are many democrats who are not either.

[Palehorse]

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/20/the-myth-of-the-46-million

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/More-OpEd-Contributors/The_truth_behind_the_Census_Bureaus_insurance_figure.html

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/49586

I have plenty of reason to think YOUR BS meter should be used on yourself, Palehorse....

and for the billionth time...I WANT HC reform........I do not like the way it is working right now.....I just believe there are other ways, that is  less expensive, and keeps it in the free market arena, instead of the bastards in Washington calling ALL the shots...there is nothing in there about tort reform....or tax credits for those who choose to buy there own or companies getting credits to cover.........I hate taxes increasing on anyone, because once they are there, they rarely go away....

it was a gov study that decided that the mamogram was overused....and THAT is the fear many have right now.......2000 pages of stuff like that that is just now being uncovered...

and I am not bringing religion into this.....but, mandating abortion coverage should not be used by TAX paying citizens...that needs clarified....even if YOU think it is nobodys business.

again, I'm fortunate, but I still pay a small fortune out to HC every year...with five kids...so, I WANT something to get done.....I'm just not on board with this one....and there are many democrats who are not either.

#1 Your "20 million" illegal status is clearly an exaggeration according to your own sources. "Between 9.7 and 10 million are not even citizens of the US".  - so yeah, BS.

#2 Your sources "spin" the 46 million figure using nefarious and presently unacceptable "assumptions" surrounding unemployment; among them being the ludicrous assumption that anyone unemployed can go right out and get another job. There are 21 million people without jobs and counting, and the lions share of them will tell you that it is virtually impossible to find another job and has been that way for well over a year now. . .

When you do the math surrounding COBRA coverage, it would take in excess of 50% of your unemployment insurance to cover the monthly COBRA premium for a family. And then should you incur a medical event, where's the other 20% coming from? No small wonder the majority of unemployed are forced to withdraw or refuse COBRA, when the choices come down to insurance or food and shelter!

Moreover, what are the numbers surrounding those excluded from coverage due to the insurance claiming "pre-existing conditions"? 12.6 million non-elderly adults according to a recent national survey.
In 9 states you can be denied coverage due to domestic violence, which can be legally claimed as a pre-existing condition by the insurance carriers. In 45 states suffering from Hay-Fever can allow insurers to deny coverage for all respiratory related illnesses.

If there are 10 million "non-US citizens" in this uninsured figure it also is not a smart assumption to say they are all illegal. I know of several large Indiana corporations that regularly have employees working here from other countries; employees that stay for a year or more on temporary assignment from their homeland. Eli Lilly, Hoffman-La Roche, Rolls Royce, and IBM among them. They may have insurance but not insurance that covers them in this country.

If you think that isn't possible you should check out your own health plan and see if it covers you globally. Many do not, and many say they will "reimburse you for usual and customary charges with proper documentation and a paid receipt". (Good luck with that!)

The fact is the only thing the insurance companies and health care providers are going to listen to and abide by is government regulatory legislation. They've been allowed to do whatever they chose for decades and now think they can dictate to doctors what treatments are acceptable for patients they never see or will see. Deregulation created the monster and now it has to be dealt with before it kills even more.

The government isn't going to run or take over health care insurers or providers, but rather establish strict guidelines surrounding how they can do business, and re-create entities to oversee the industry.

Mammograms:
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/28/us/another-group-switches-on-frequency-of-mammograms.html

http://www.oncolink.org/conferences/article.cfm?c=3&s=19&ss=127&id=666

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/dci-hos021705.php


As you can see, this is not the first time a recommendation to modify frequency has been raised, however this latest one is exacerbated by the hysteria being created by the health care industry's own propaganda efforts. 

The U.S. Preventative Services Task Force is an independent panel of government-appointed experts that reviews medical research and recommends ways to reduce the risk of illness and death. Although it's sponsored and funded by the Agency for Healthcare Quality and Research, part of the Department of Health and Human Services, doctors are not obligated to follow its recommendations. Its influence is considerable. The American Academy of Family Physicians has endorsed the panel's recommendations on breast screening in the past.

This being said it is presently still the call of your personal physician surrounding the need for annual screenings. It always should be, but unless regulation of the insurance industry is undertaken, not next year, or the year after, or next decade, but NOW, there is nothing standing between your doctor and annual screenings if your physician feels they are necessary, EXCEPT the insurance companies. And make no mistake, they'll eliminate them quicker than a bolt of lightening if they can as it stands right now. (Personally I endorse annual screenings out of personal experience).

Nobody is mandating abortion, the government is just taking the position that abortion should be covered if the patient makes the decision to pursue that path. No one is saying anyone has to have one; just enabling the legally prescribed choices. Any and all objections to the procedure are based upon religious and personal belief, and as such they should not be forced upon anyone; and cannot be legally. And it is NOBODY else's business but the patients as outlined by law. Same as any other medical procedure.

So yeah, maybe that 46 million number is a bit of a moving target when you look into it. But even at 36 million, when you add the increasing ranks of the unemployed to that figure, by the time congress decides to do anything anyway, that 46 million figure may fall far short of the actual number of US citizens uninsured. It grows every day. . .

Those who are not on board with this effort have never faced the stark reality of what doing nothing means. . . But they will understand it in time. . . The odds keep getting greater and greater that in time you'll join the ranks of those currently "living the dream".

[Y]

They are trying to save us from the tax hikes and the more affluent from being taxed out of existence and not being able to keep their business to keep people working or having to raise prices so we can't afford their product which also keeps people working to provide that product.  Let's see now, they raise the tax's on the people who are providing the jobs so those people lay off to make up the difference.....so they are no longer paying into the system but drawing from it instead..........well, gosh they don't need as many supplies now so darn there go some more jobs because the suppliers now have less demand for their product.....some more lose jobs......hum, well now there are more people drawing from instead of contributing......hum, well, now people can't buy certain items because they aren't working........hum, more job losses........Are you seeing a pattern here?  Probably not.  Trickle up don't work 'cause water don't run uphill. 

PH has you pegged.  If you believe what you say, then you don't even know who owns what, who employs whom, who benefits the most, and who should pay the freight for being the beneficiary - much less who's pawn you are.

[me]

PH has you pegged.  If you believe what you say, then you don't even know who owns what, who employs whom, who benefits the most, and who should pay the freight for being the beneficiary - much less who's pawn you are.

So if you owned a business you would pay more taxes, up to 65%, plus benefits and high wages to enable those of who weren't as fortunate to have the money to buy your product?  Is that what you're saying? 

[Exterminator]

PH has you pegged.  If you believe what you say, then you don't even know who owns what, who employs whom, who benefits the most, and who should pay the freight for being the beneficiary - much less who's pawn you are.

Yep, what they fail to acknowledge is that if their so-call supply-side economic model had any merit, Bush's tax cuts for the rich would have created an economic boon and the effect has been exactly the opposite.

[me]

So if you owned a business you would pay more taxes, up to 65%, plus benefits and high wages to enable those of who weren't as fortunate to have the money to buy your product?  Is that what you're saying?

Hey "Y" you never did answer my question.