Cheney vs. Obama on Water Boarding

[drbob]

   Yesterday (5/21) both President Barack Obama and ex-Vice President Dick Cheney spoke back to back on the subject of National Security.  I listened to all of both speeches (the advantage of being retires, I guess).  I will comment on one point both speakers discussed. 
   Cheney argued that the interrogation technique known as "water boarding," which he defined as rough but not torture, was legitimate because it brought information that, Cheney says, saved American lives.  Cheney says "One nuclear armed terrorist..." that get through can cause great harm.  Well we cannot argue with that point.  A nuclear armed terrorist loose in the U.S. (or anywhere else) could produce monumental harm, killing tens of thousands of innocent people.  However, one might ask the former Vice President, where are these nuclear-armed terrorists?  There are none right now.  So, Cheney's scare-tactic statement is frightening but not realistic.  He's jumping from shadows and he wants you to jump with him. 
   Now I do know that some terrorists might want to get a nuke, but wanting is not having.  I want to win the lottery, but wanting is not having.  Maybe in the future I will win it and maybe a terrorist will get a nuke, but I don't think either case is likely. 
   Cheney said that water boarding did produce usable information.  He argued that the water-boarding of terrorist Abu Zubaida foiled al-Qaeda plots and saved lives.  However, an article in the Washington Post (March 29, 2009) claimed CIA sources that say no usable information was obtained through the water boarding of Zubaida.  Someone is lying here.  I don't know who.  In addition, Cheney pointedly did not say whether or not information obtained from water boarding could have been obtained through other interrogation techniques. 
   President Obama has defined water boarding as torture and has outlawed that technique "once and for all."  [Cheney did say that Obama retained for himself the option to order water boarding if he (Obama) deems it necessary.  According to presidential spokesperson, Robert Gibbs, Cheney's claim is completely untrue.]
   Obama argues that first good intelligence can be obtained through methods less harsh that water boarding.  That point is supported by some FBI interrogators who say that water boarding produces unreliable information and that there are other more effective interrogation techniques.  Obama also argued that techniques of torture (water boarding) tear down the values that make America stand out among nations.  We have always put a stop to torture when we encounter it, he said.  In addition, Obama says if we torture it means our own people are more likely to be tortured if they are captured in war.  This point has been supported by a number of high-ranking military officials over and over.  Finally, Obama argued that our use of torture is used as a recruiting strategy by agents of al-Qaeda. 
   I have summarized just one point of the President and former Vice-President's speeches, but on this point, I strongly agree with President Obama.  Water boarding certainly is torture.  If you don't believe that try having someone hold your head under water until you really believe that you will drown and you begin to gasp for air, sucking water into your stomach and lungs.  Your heart races, blood pressure hits the roof, and you feel a pain in your chest that makes you think you're having a heart attack.   
   Most important I believe water boarding lowers America to the level of al-Qaeda, that it produces little useful information, and that good information can be obtained through other means.   

[Henry Hawk]

I do not think it even comes close to the level of the al-Qaeda...I also do not believe we should use it unless our CIA has strong reasons to believe that we get lifesaving information by utilizing it.....

btw, If anybody did what you suggested they should try....they WOULD drown.....waterboarding, if done properly (from what I understand) does NOT inflict any physically damaging harm....water does NOT fill the lungs or stomach or they would die...it merely emulates the sensation of drowning....it instills fear and anguish, to the point a person will be willing to give the information they are holding to discontinue the treatment.  I think this DOES suck, but these 'certain' few, people have put themselves into this situation, and IF it can be established to save American lives....I am 100% in favor of it's restricted use.

[Locutus]

What amazes me is that "Dick" Cheney is still given an audience by the Sunday morning talk shows.  Last I checked, the American people voted him, and those who think like him, out last November.  More than half of us are sick of him, Bush, and the rest of those idiots that were responsible for the last 8 disastrous years.

[Henry Hawk]

What amazes me is that "Dick" Cheney is still given an audience by the Sunday morning talk shows.  Last I checked, the American people voted him, and those who think like him, out last November.  More than half of us are sick of him, Bush, and the rest of those idiots that were responsible for the last 8 disastrous years.

Over 60 million voted for his 'type'...ie McCain/Palin.....and if I remember correctly.......things was not too bad, until the last two years, in which, ironically, was controlled by ....eh...DEMOCRATS.

[Sandy Eggo]

Amnesia can be convenient for you right wing types, huh? 'Sides the Democrats may have been in majority, but with a Republican president weren't really in control.

[Henry Hawk]

  More than half of us are sick of him, Bush, and the rest of those idiots that were responsible for the last 8 disastrous years.

and the other half is sick of this admin and idiots thar ARE responsible for the last 100 disastrous DAYS....


and on that note...............EVERYONE!! HAVE A GREAT MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND!!! 

[drbob]

Hello H.H.  thanks for the comment.  I cannot really debate your description of  water boarding.  I have never been water boarded, nor have I water boarded anyone.  I did read a description of it last year.  For the life of me, I cannot remember the source.  However, according to what I read, the process is supposed to be something like what you described, but it is very difficult to make water boarding effective and keep people from inhaling water into their stomachs and lungs.  This is a very rough process, with a person being bound head and foot, unable to move even their head.  I just would not know how one would describe it, if not as torture. 

You argued that if it gets good information we should us it.  Obama argued (and I personally agree) that first we do not get good information.  People will say anything to make it stop.  Second, even if it give good information, that information can often be gained through other methods and most important, doing water boarding violates the moral and value for which this nation has always stood.  We're Americans and we don't torture.  We punish those of us that do. 

Hi Locutus ... thanks for the comment.  You know how the media loves to promote a fight.  It does not matter what the issue.  If it is a fight, the media will be there saying:  "I'll hold your coat.  Let's you and him fight."

Hi Sandy.  Thanks for the comment.  :}  good point!

[LOsborne]

Dr. Bob, you might find this NY Times article helpful:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

For those who don't care to wade through the three pages, this is just one very interesting excerpt:

The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.

They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective. Nor were most of the officials aware that the former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation, or that the Justice Department lawyer most responsible for declaring the methods legal had idiosyncratic ideas that even the Bush Justice Department would later renounce.

The process was “a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiasm,” a former C.I.A. official said.

[Henry Hawk]

Hello H.H.  thanks for the comment.  I cannot really debate your description of  water boarding.  I have never been water boarded, nor have I water boarded anyone.  I did read a description of it last year.  For the life of me, I cannot remember the source.  However, according to what I read, the process is supposed to be something like what you described, but it is very difficult to make water boarding effective and keep people from inhaling water into their stomachs and lungs.  This is a very rough process, with a person being bound head and foot, unable to move even their head.  I just would not know how one would describe it, if not as torture. 

You argued that if it gets good information we should us it.  Obama argued (and I personally agree) that first we do not get good information.  People will say anything to make it stop.  Second, even if it give good information, that information can often be gained through other methods and most important, doing water boarding violates the moral and value for which this nation has always stood.  We're Americans and we don't torture.  We punish those of us that do. 

Drbob,

I too, have never been waterboarded, nor do I ever hope too...I'm certain it is NOT pleasant.  I DO, have a certain amount of trust in our CIA.  THEY are the experts, and are trained to do a job.  I do not think they are a sadistic group out to just have a few jollies at someone else's expense. Their job is to keep America SAFE.  It would be a great world if we NEVER had to harm one another...if reason and logic would ALWAYS prevail.  It is my understanding that WATERBOARDING is NOT a common used method of interrogation, but has merely been used on a handful of occasions...or maybe I should say, to a handful of prisoners....IF, I was President, I would do EVERYTHING that is humanly possible to make sure, an EVENT like 9/11 EVER happened again...You made the statement.... We're Americans and we don't torture....who decides what torture IS?...

Maybe I am wrong, and waterboarding may very well be right up there with the worst of tortures....but, IF, reports are correct, and THIS particular treatment DID SAVE AMERICAN LIVES....I for one, am very grateful for those who was able to obtain this information.

[The Troll]

So some people don't think waterboarding isn't torture.  Double dare you to try this.  When you are in the shower or bath, take a wet washcloth and put it over you face covering your whole face.  Now take water from the shower or cup and pour it over the cloth for 2 minutes.  I''ll bet you can't do it for over I 1/2 minutes.  After you catch you breath, think how it would feel if someone had you strapped to a board and you can't move your body and head.  I almost drowned when I was teenager swimming with a group of my friends in a stonequarry.  IT DID NOT FEEL GOOD.  Would I like to do it again.  NO!!!!      

[Anne]

Isn't the point of waterboarding to make the person being "questioned" NOT feel good? I have mixed feelings about it but certainly making someone "feel good" isn't effective. Troll,or anyone else who cares to answer, what kind of interrogation tactics would you endorse?

[followsthewolf]

There are very effective non-physical interview techniques.

It takes time and a lot of skill.

The human body adjusts to the worst of physical pain once it is applied too frequently. That makes the physical option ineffective.

It is, however, the easiest, and, by far, the one favored by the lazy, inept interviewer.

Too often favored by those bent on revenge (rather than gathering intelligence) and those with inadequate training who are pressured for instant results.

[Henry Hawk]

There are very effective non-physical interview techniques.

It takes time and a lot of skill.

The human body adjusts to the worst of physical pain once it is applied too frequently. That makes the physical option ineffective.

It is, however, the easiest, and, by far, the one favored by the lazy, inept interviewer.

Too often favored by those bent on revenge (rather than gathering intelligence) and those with inadequate training who are pressured for instant results.

Our CIA's job is not get revenge, but to gather intelligence to keep America safe....they are the hired experts, and I am 100% certain, IF they felt they could gather more info by using other means, they would....they are not the bad guys here....they have a job to do...let them do it.

[followsthewolf]

You trust the CIA much more than I do, Henry.

At least the field operatives that I have met.

And, I'm skeptical that they would use any means other than the simplest available.

Most were only interested in quantity of information vs. quality (read: career advancement).

(Hence the false "body count" of enemy soldiers being confirmed as a collaboration between the military and those agents during the Vietnam war.)

[LOsborne]

It doesn't work. They can't even lie about it convincingly.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/archive/2010/02/20/justice-report-cia-memo-used-by-cheney-to-justify-waterboarding-was-inaccurate.aspx

Most interesting paragraphs:
One key claim in the agency memo was that the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogations of Zubaydah led to the capture of suspected "dirty bomb' plotter Jose Padilla.   "Abu Zubaydah provided significant information on two operatives, Jose Padilla and Binyam Mohammed, who planned to build and detonate a 'dirty bomb' in the Washington DC area," the CIA memo stated, according to the OPR report. "Zubaydah's reporting led to the arrest of Padilla on his arrival in Chicago in May 2003 [sic]."

   But as the Justice report points out, this was wrong.   "In fact, Padilla was arrested in May 2002, not 2003 ... The information '[leading] to the arrest of Padilla' could not have been obtained through the authorized use of EITs." (The use of enhanced interrogations was not authorized until Aug. 1, 2002 and Zubaydah was not waterboarded until later that month.) " Yet Bradbury relied upon this plainly inaccurate information" in two OLC memos that contained direct citations from the CIA Effectiveness Memo about the interrogations of Zubaydah, the Justice report states.

So not only are they liars -- they are inept liars. They can't even use a calendar.