Broken Promises and Lies..

[Ghost of Jaco]

I hope the POTUS veto's each and every bill that comes through congress and back to his desk with any pork in it what so ever. I hope he line item veto's every piece of pork, every time it appears. I'll giggle like a school girl when congress becomes gridlocked in power trips and special interest initiatives, as they begin to consume one another and nothing what so ever gets passed for well over 36 months.

At first I thought you had gone back on your meds, PH. I didn't realize until the end that you were being sarcastic.
I thought "...POTUS veto's each and every bill that comes through congress and back to his desk with any pork in it what so ever. I hope he line item veto's every piece of pork, every time it appears. I'll giggle like a school girl when congress becomes gridlocked in power trips and special interest initiatives, as they begin to consume one another and nothing what so ever gets passed for well over 36 months..." was an excellent idea. It would certainly expose congresscritters for what they are and show the American people what they have allowed their selfish interests to do to damage our form of Gov't. Who knows? Real, genuine Statesmen could arise and be elected. People with an eye on the Constitution and a will to hold the power of the Gov't to it's limitations so the real engines of prosperity and job-creation could roar to life once more!

From the way you are talking, one could deduce that you wouldn't mind if legislation were just drafted and signed into law with no debate whatsoever.
I wonder....if this stimulus bill contained provisions for YOUR money to be taxed at an 80% rate, denied YOU any Gov't assistance, and gave YOUR possessions to the wealthiest man in town, and jailed anyone with YOUR skin color, would you THEN think, perhaps, that we should have taken the time to examine the bill with a more critical eye?

What's that? It doesn't contain those things?
Are you SURE?
Have you read it?
No? Neither have most of the representatives who voted for it.

[Palehorse]

At first I thought you had gone back on your meds, PH. I didn't realize until the end that you were being sarcastic.
I thought "...POTUS veto's each and every bill that comes through congress and back to his desk with any pork in it what so ever. I hope he line item veto's every piece of pork, every time it appears. I'll giggle like a school girl when congress becomes gridlocked in power trips and special interest initiatives, as they begin to consume one another and nothing what so ever gets passed for well over 36 months..." was an excellent idea. It would certainly expose congresscritters for what they are and show the American people what they have allowed their selfish interests to do to damage our form of Gov't. Who knows? Real, genuine Statesmen could arise and be elected. People with an eye on the Constitution and a will to hold the power of the Gov't to it's limitations so the real engines of prosperity and job-creation could roar to life once more!

From the way you are talking, one could deduce that you wouldn't mind if legislation were just drafted and signed into law with no debate whatsoever.
I wonder....if this stimulus bill contained provisions for YOUR money to be taxed at an 80% rate, denied YOU any Gov't assistance, and gave YOUR possessions to the wealthiest man in town, and jailed anyone with YOUR skin color, would you THEN think, perhaps, that we should have taken the time to examine the bill with a more critical eye?

What's that? It doesn't contain those things?
Are you SURE?
Have you read it?
No? Neither have most of the representatives who voted for it.

Certainly my perspective (as posted) and the one you posted are both extremes; much like the extremist approach taken on by the rock throwers herein. Each of them are beyond reasonable expectation.

I was only half-sarcastic though surrounding my hope that the POTUS starts using the red pen and vetoing the pork bills. If that's what they want then give it to them and let's all get in touch with our ancestors. I just wonder how long before the rock throwers will begin squealing anew about the governmental lack of concern for basic human needs once it shuts down. . .

Hey corrugate box or traditional housing; I'll live either way. It won't be pretty though. . .

(BTW. . .Yes, I've read as much of it as my personal time has allowed. . . So much for your assumptions.)

[me]

Certainly my perspective (as posted) and the one you posted are both extremes; much like the extremist approach taken on by the rock throwers herein. Each of them are beyond reasonable expectation.

I was only half-sarcastic though surrounding my hope that the POTUS starts using the red pen and vetoing the pork bills. If that's what they want then give it to them and let's all get in touch with our ancestors. I just wonder how long before the rock throwers will begin squealing anew about the governmental lack of concern for basic human needs once it shuts down. . .

Hey corrugate box or traditional housing; I'll live either way. It won't be pretty though. . .

(BTW. . .Yes, I've read as much of it as my personal time has allowed. . . So much for your assumptions.)

I'm only throwing sand at Obama I'm savin' the boulders for Congress which is where ya'll should have been throwin' most of the ones you threw for the last 2 and most of the last 8 yrs. 

[Palehorse]

I'm only throwing sand at Obama I'm savin' the boulders for Congress which is where ya'll should have been throwin' most of the ones you threw for the last 2 and most of the last 8 yrs.

I'm an equal oportunity boulder chunker; if you deserve it I'll chunk a few your way. Had you been posting with me over the past 8 years you would know that about me. When the chimp first took office I was behind him. When 9/11 happened and we went to war I was behind that choice as well. Somewhere along the way the "reality" became blatant lies and abuse of power and I did a 180; as it is my choice to do, and as I will do once again if the current POTUS proves it is necessary. Until then he has my support.

I've never trusted congress to do what was right anymore than I've trusted any POTUS to do the same. They all lie, they all cheat, they all will rob us blind if we let them. They cannot help it for it is within the genetics of humankind to do so; our basic need to accumulate personal power and wealth.

Any one of us would eventually revert to the very same behaviors if we were to assume similar roles. . . On that you can rely.

[Henry Hawk]

I haven't even began to throw rocks yet, personally.....

and I agree me, congress are the one's who are the REAL shame here, but, I am tired of the ass-kissers on here, who think, simply because the current potus is a great speaker, we should not question him whatsoever....

we just passed the largest spending Bill in American history....and normally before a voting on ANY BILL, they go through a committee in order to evaluate what is inside these complicated Bills. That was not done here.......after a Bill passes the House and then the Senate....the Bill is usually examined by Congress to hammer out the differences between the  what the House passed and what the Senate passed.....this IS an unprecedented move...never before in history has such a bill passed with this broad of legislation..................and to boot.....the potus...had the Republicans locked out of these meetings regarding THIS stimulus package..............and I AM BEING CRITICIZED FOR ...THROWING ROCKS?....

all I have done was call out a few outright lies.............and have stated, where I 100% disagree....and it now seems I need to be censored or simply just 'shut-up'....and give the potus a chance...without ANY reservation? 

not going to happen...

[Ghost of Jaco]

Certainly my perspective (as posted) and the one you posted are both extremes; much like the extremist approach taken on by the rock throwers herein. Each of them are beyond reasonable expectation.

I was only half-sarcastic though surrounding my hope that the POTUS starts using the red pen and vetoing the pork bills. If that's what they want then give it to them and let's all get in touch with our ancestors. I just wonder how long before the rock throwers will begin squealing anew about the governmental lack of concern for basic human needs once it shuts down. . .

Hey corrugate box or traditional housing; I'll live either way. It won't be pretty though. . .

(BTW. . .Yes, I've read as much of it as my personal time has allowed. . . So much for your assumptions.)

Oh, sorry PH, my bad. My point wasn't whether YOU had read it, per se, but that most members of Congress and the Senate hadn't read it, let alone had time to think about the unintended consequences of the various provisions.

Your position seems to be that potentially bad, unexamined, legislation passed today is better than waiting for good legislation to be introduced or even waiting until this bill has been examined and debated. Based on what I've seen Gov't do, I'll take my chances with waiting. At least then we might have an inkling as to which direction the screwing is coming from this time, lol!

[Palehorse]

. . .
and I agree me, congress are the one's who are the REAL shame here, but, I am tired of the ass-kissers on here, who think, simply because the current potus is a great speaker, we should not question him whatsoever....

. . .and I AM BEING CRITICIZED FOR ...THROWING ROCKS?....

all I have done was call out a few outright lies.............

My point exactly; thank you very much.

You aren't being criticized, but rather I personally am trying to point out how you are whipping the wagon for the horse's refusal to move! It accomplishes nothing.

And what you are doing is demonstrating a very high level of unreasonable adjudication of a man's abilities based upon his first 28 days in office. Tell me, if he eventually delivers on each and every item you now call him a "liar" over, will he still be a liar in your opinion? (I expect so). 

Your expectations are deeply laced with sour grapes and I wonder if they would be the same had the opposing party been the victors. (I somehow doubt that). Mine on the other hand would have been. Had McCain won and taken similar measures I would still be as supportive as I have been of the current POTUS; again until he proved to be unworthy of that trust. (Just as I was of the chimp. And if you doubt that then search through my postings from the start of the Iraqi conflict. I was behind the chimp until he proved he is a chimp, then I began seriously questioning him and his administration. It is all here in this forum if you don't believe it search through my postings. But you should know of all people here Hank, because you were here!)

[me]

My point exactly; thank you very much.

You aren't being criticized, but rather I personally am trying to point out how you are whipping the wagon for the horse's refusal to move! It accomplishes nothing.

And what you are doing is demonstrating a very high level of unreasonable adjudication of a man's abilities based upon his first 28 days in office. Tell me, if he eventually delivers on each and every item you now call him a "liar" over, will he still be a liar in your opinion? (I expect so). 

Your expectations are deeply laced with sour grapes and I wonder if they would be the same had the opposing party been the victors. (I somehow doubt that). Mine on the other hand would have been. Had McCain won and taken similar measures I would still be as supportive as I have been of the current POTUS; again until he proved to be unworthy of that trust. (Just as I was of the chimp. And if you doubt that then search through my postings from the start of the Iraqi conflict. I was behind the chimp until he proved he is a chimp, then I began seriously questioning him and his administration. It is all here in this forum if you don't believe it search through my postings. But you should know of all people here Hank, because you were here!)

I will say one thing.  I imagine at this point he has discovered that he will be just a pawn in Congress' game if he don't get a grip and take the bull by the horns.  If not I hope he figures it out real soon.

[Palehorse]

Oh, sorry PH, my bad. My point wasn't whether YOU had read it, per se, but that most members of Congress and the Senate hadn't read it, let alone had time to think about the unintended consequences of the various provisions.

Your position seems to be that potentially bad, unexamined, legislation passed today is better than waiting for good legislation to be introduced or even waiting until this bill has been examined and debated. Based on what I've seen Gov't do, I'll take my chances with waiting. At least then we might have an inkling as to which direction the screwing is coming from this time, lol!

IN part. . .but my real point is that some potentially very good and necessary things were passed, and had we awaited the Utopian results many wish for there very well may have been a lot less of our nation/economic/social class structure to save.

I very much believe there is a very large segment of people that are in denial; that fail to realize just how close to the edge this nation is, and had this measure not passed and we found ourselves under marshal law from coast-to-coast, with state, local government shut down altogether, then they very same rocks that are being chunked toward the POTUS would still be chunked toward him over it. Using his failure to pass the package due to pork as the validation for their actions. (damned if he did, damned if he didn't).

In such situations a POTUS has no choice but to pursue the path he knows to be in the best interests of the country and endure the storm. (Just as he has done to this point).

Society's conditioning of its population to expect instant gratification is not a good thing, and certainly is not constructive when dealing with such dire situations. It creates unreasonable expectations, and unacceptable conditions in the measurement of success. (Just what I believe to be the case here).

The fix for all of this is for every single unemployed person to march their happy asses to DC and hold the SOB's accountable; all of them. But it is far too easy to sit back and chunk rocks at a sitting POTUS. This nation has become a jungle and it is governed by jungle rules. Its population had better start living those rules instead of engaging in armchair quarterbacking tactics.

[Henry Hawk]

My point exactly; thank you very much.

You aren't being criticized, but rather I personally am trying to point out how you are whipping the wagon for the horse's refusal to move! It accomplishes nothing.

And what you are doing is demonstrating a very high level of unreasonable adjudication of a man's abilities based upon his first 28 days in office. Tell me, if he eventually delivers on each and every item you now call him a "liar" over, will he still be a liar in your opinion? (I expect so). 

Your expectations are deeply laced with sour grapes and I wonder if they would be the same had the opposing party been the victors. (I somehow doubt that). Mine on the other hand would have been. Had McCain won and taken similar measures I would still be as supportive as I have been of the current POTUS; again until he proved to be unworthy of that trust. (Just as I was of the chimp. And if you doubt that then search through my postings from the start of the Iraqi conflict. I was behind the chimp until he proved he is a chimp, then I began seriously questioning him and his administration. It is all here in this forum if you don't believe it search through my postings. But you should know of all people here Hank, because you were here!)

First of all, I would have criticized McCain, Bush, Pence, or BHO....if they supported a bill like we just passed.....it was wrong no matter what.

but adding salt to the wound, bho was the one who said, he was going to build a bridge between the parties....he was going to end earmarks and pork...he said no more secrecy......

PH, as God as my witness, I hope and pray, that everything gets better, and I will praise bho, if and when this happens.....I have TOO much at stake for failures....I have been through enough.....I don't have sour grapes, I am simply stating the facts as I see them.....

THIS BILL IS WRONG!!!....I don't agree with way they are wanting OUR money distributed...to stimulate the economy.....I simply think it will NOT have any immediate effects and the long-term effects I fear are going to be the worst.....that is how I see it PH.....

you have criticized....claiming I am being unreasonable..........and that is okay...........I felt many on here was extremely unreasonable with the chimp as you have classicly nicknamed.....

we obviously disagree with each other.........but, I am not backing down from my convictions as you had strong convictions about bush.

If I am being unreasonable for not getting excited about the largest spending bill in the history of our country at a time we should NOT be spending money....

PH, do you realize this is NOT the first time our country has been through economic hardships?...........the average recession usually lasts from 12 to 24 months.............maybe we need to REAL in some pork and some of this spending until this economic period has ran its course.

The last economic hardship this country faced was in the late 70's..........and it was handled the opposite of what we are doing................it worked pretty well back then.......I think I am being very reasonable.

[Palehorse]

I will say one thing.  I imagine at this point he has discovered that he will be just a pawn in Congress' game if he don't get a grip and take the bull by the horns.  If not I hope he figures it out real soon.

The problem is that the real power is held by congress. Sure he can veto the hell out of the pork but they can also over rule him as well. They can block, stall, kill, just as well as he can; and the bottom line is the only people that are negatively impacted by any of it is. . . well go look in the mirror. They do not care! And they won't until we make them care. WE have to do this, not the POTUS or congress. Sure they have to enact the bills, protocols, legislation, etc., but they are only going to do what we force them to in our interests. Otherwise, its business as usual because there are no personal ramifications for them.

[Henry Hawk]

The fix for all of this is for every single unemployed person to march their happy asses to DC and hold the SOB's accountable; all of them. But it is far too easy to sit back and chunk rocks at a sitting POTUS. This nation has become a jungle and it is governed by jungle rules. Its population had better start living those rules instead of engaging in armchair quarterbacking tactics.

THIS I agree with 1000%, I would gladly join you on an excursion as such....but the potus, is no exception....all of them need to hear from us....

[Henry Hawk]

The problem is that the real power is held by congress. Sure he can veto the hell out of the pork but they can also over rule him as well. They can block, stall, kill, just as well as he can; and the bottom line is the only people that are negatively impacted by any of it is. . . well go look in the mirror. They do not care! And they won't until we make them care. WE have to do this, not the POTUS or congress. Sure they have to enact the bills, protocols, legislation, etc., but they are only going to do what we force them to in our interests. Otherwise, its business as usual because there are no personal ramifications for them.

but the new POTUS had a golden opportunity to set the stage for the way things NEED to be.....and AMERICANS would have applauded him....both parties!!...THAT would have built the bridge WE need at this time........THAT is the LEADERSHIP we NEED!!!!

IMO

[Palehorse]

You know me Henry, and I lived through the same crap you have. I've started over so many times in my life that I should have a doctorate in start ups.

The truth is I have sincere doubt that anything we are going to do or have done is going to accomplish anything more than stalling the eventual and total economic collapse of this country.

What we are going through is remarkably similar to that which Yugoslavia endured up to its eventual collapse and disappearance. ( Research Ivan Pongracic - Former Director of the Economy - Yugoslavia). And I strongly suspect that we are headed toward a total failure of astounding proportions.

[Palehorse]

but the new POTUS had a golden opportunity to set the stage for the way things NEED to be.....and AMERICANS would have applauded him....both parties!!...THAT would have built the bridge WE need at this time........THAT is the LEADERSHIP we NEED!!!!

IMO

Utopian expectations. The reality is engaging in leadership via attrition will result in congressional gridlock. If what you say is true we should have elected Mike Ditka as POTUS!