ACLU..

[dan foster]

so screw our heritage...and you are getting sidetracked from my question....did our FF's endorse religion for the common good of the people...the answer is YES they did.........bucko![/i].. )

Ahhh.  James Madison didn't think so.  Was James Madison a Founder?

    "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

    "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

[awol]

Grassroots, hayseed...it's all the same. 

ASTROTURF in this case..

[Palehorse]

Ahhh.  James Madison didn't think so.  Was James Madison a Founder?

    "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

    "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

Ahhh.   Thomas Paine didn't think so.  Is Thomas Paine a Founder?

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations

Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)

There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)

The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations

Everything wonderful in appearance has been ascribed to angels, to devils, or to saints. Everything ancient has some legendary tale annexed to it. The common operations of nature have not escaped their practice of corrupting everything.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)

No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)

Ahhh.  I don't think Jefferson did.  Was Jefferson a Founder?

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

[Thomas Jefferson, to Baron von Humboldt, 1813; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 370]

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."

[Thomas Jefferson, to Carey, 1816]

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

[Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT. "The Complete Jefferson" by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

They may have done exactly as you say, but it was in private or at a church, where it belongs.  Provide a single quote from the Constitution (the construct from which our entire government AND legal heritage comes from) that supports the gov't to be involved with such endorsements.

As it would seem we took a months long break from this subject, anyone care to take up the gauntlet again and respond to Dan's postings???

[Henry Hawk]

Naw, I am 100% convinced that I am correct on this stance.....and I have seen all of the spins trying to degrade it...

I'm good!!..

but by all means feel free to jump in....

[Exterminator]

Denial...not a river in Egypt. 

[Henry Hawk]

De-iamright...........also not a river in Egypt

[dan foster]

Naw, I am 100% convinced that I am correct on this stance.....and I have seen all of the spins trying to degrade it...

I'm good!!..

but by all means feel free to jump in....

Just for completeness, here is a reminder of your stance;
Quote from: Henry Hawk on April 15, 2009, 02:36:55 PM

    so screw our heritage...and you are getting sidetracked from my question....did our FF's endorse religion for the common good of the people...the answer is YES they did.........bucko![/i].. )


I would like to know how you can be 100% convinced you are right, when so many of our FF's, as you put it, say you are wrong.  Do their words mean nothing to you, or are you only capable of believing the word of god, put down by men on paper, of dubious origin and flawed logic and morality?  Your blind faith, in faith itself is amusing.  No matter of reality or facts can sway your delusion; proving the power of brainwashing, yet again.

If nothing else, please describe who, or what, convinced you 100% of your stance, if you don't mind.  I am guessing either it was the dead clown in Coral Gables, or some crackpot like Dobson.

[Henry Hawk]

Do their words mean nothing to you

I can give you hundreds of quotes by our FF that CLEARLY state their strong beliefs in GOD and how they CHERISH the BIBLE....and the individual State Constituions CLEARLY acknowledge God....that is just a simple FACT...

[dan foster]

I can give you hundreds of quotes by our FF that CLEARLY state their strong beliefs in GOD and how they CHERISH the BIBLE....and the individual State Constituions CLEARLY acknowledge God....that is just a simple FACT...

Yep, Jefferson so cherished the bible that he ripped the story of jesus out of it and turned him into a Buddha vice a god, with his own bible.  Now that is cherishing, or cherry picking?  I will leave that for you to decide.  He certainly left out all that killing innocent children and witches shit out.

[Henry Hawk]

Whatever, he DID say the following: "The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty ... students' perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens."

I think THAT says enough of what he thought about the Bible...

[dan foster]

Whatever, he DID say the following: "The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty ... students' perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens."

I think THAT says enough of what he thought about the Bible...

There are lies, and then there are god damned lies!  Your quote is a lie and faked by David Barton, the asshole you got it from.