Invictus is a poem I read in a science fiction book not too long after I graduated from high school.
"Out of the night that covers me
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul....."
Why am I writing about it now? It just popped into my head a few days ago. But why? I think partly because of circumstance (something personal, part of which I won't write about here) and partly because of something Y and others here wrote about God. And yesterday, out of the blue, I realized what was so unusual about me remembering part of a poem.
I have one sister in a nursing home type place with a diagnosis that means she may linger for a long time but not know who she is or why she's there at least part of the time. Another sister has fairly late stage Parkinson's. And we learned about a week ago that a niece's husband died suddenly -- they were living in Okinawa. She's back here now while her husband's body is somewhere en route by military aircraft. (He was a civilian working for the military.)
As for me, I am by nature an optimist, but depression seems to have found me. And our talk here about God. And then I remembered when, where, how I first read that poem:
About the time I graduated from high school, I learned, while working part time at a local hospital, that my father was dying of lung cancer. I knew before my mother did, and had to make some quick personal decisions .We were a church going family so other than praying, I decided to write to a TV preacher who was known for healing by the laying on of hands. After about 2 weeks I got a form letter telling me to pray for him. That's when I stopped going to church. I didn't go to daddy's funeral. And some time after that I read the poem Invictus. And what I came away with, what was going on in my brain without me consciously thinking of it, was that religion was too complicated, and that I had a soul. And it worked for me. I still believe it. I believe the soul lives on and that is enough for me.
Here's the rest of the poem:
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried
Under the bludgeonning of chance
My head is bloody but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and still finds me unafraid."
... By William Ernest Henley
Libby
Sorry to hear about your family issues...
I never read that poem before and I like it!
I looked it up and found yet another verse you left out
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 30, 2018, 05:07:16 PM
Libby
Sorry to hear about your family issues...
I never read that poem before and I like it!
I looked it up and found yet another verse you left out
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul
Hello and thanks, Hank. It did however surprise me to learn that you like it.
My soul takes great hope from that poem. Unconquerable. Quite !
Thanks for sharing. It seems , and was, decades ago when I first ran across it. So long ago I had all but forgotten it.
I sincerely wish that the hope I find in this poem is transferred to you a thousand times over, as you face these multiple trials life has placed before you. You ARE unconquerable Libby. I feel it. May you feel it too. :smitten:
Libby, I am sorry for your troubles. I remember that poem from high school. I liked it then but haven't thought about it for years.
Quote from: Anne on December 31, 2018, 02:37:20 AM
Libby, I am sorry for your troubles. I remember that poem from high school. I liked it then but haven't thought about it for years.
Thank you, Anne. That poem changed my life.
Quote from: Palehorse on December 31, 2018, 12:53:57 AM
My soul takes great hope from that poem. Unconquerable. Quite !
Thanks for sharing. It seems , and was, decades ago when I first ran across it. So long ago I had all but forgotten it.
I sincerely wish that the hope I find in this poem is transferred to you a thousand times over, as you face these multiple trials life has placed before you. You ARE unconquerable Libby. I feel it. May you feel it too. :smitten:
Thank you, Palehorse. I have never written about it before. No one in my family has seemed to have a clue that I'm a tad different-- although my dear mother, who passed away years ago, looked at me once and said, "Libby, if you had not been born at home I would swear you were dropped off here by aliens."
Thank you, Palehorse. I have never written about it before. I wish I were as eloquent as you. When I write I don't have a clue what the finished product will be. My dear mother, who passed away years ago, looked at me once and said, "Libby, if you had not been born at home I would swear you were dropped off here by aliens."
Sorry to hear of what you're going through, Libby. You are a valued member of our small family here. I hope 2019 works out better for you than 2018.
I think you know my views on religion and god, but we all have to find our own way in that regard. I'm glad you seem to have found yours. :smile:
Hoping things get better for you, Libby. From what I can tell of you from our interactions here, you seem to me like a strong woman.
I like the lines Hank found, particularly "I am the master of my fate". I know I've read this poem before; maybe high school or college.
Quote from: Locutus on December 31, 2018, 05:47:11 PM
Sorry to hear of what you're going through, Libby. You are a valued member of our small family here. I hope 2019 works out better for you than 2018.
I think you know my views on religion and god, but we all have to find our own way in that regard. I'm glad you seem to have found yours. :smile:
Well, :rant: I wrote an answer to you but lost it, so I'll try again and keep it short(er). I knew I was on a path I could live with about 3 years ago when an old friend introduced me to his son, an electrical engineer who works for a well known aerospace company. Conversation got around to books, and I said I had a lot, especially old sci-fi, but a lot seemed to point to quantum physics, about which I knew nothing. He asked if I had anything by a certain writer. The name sounded familiar but I couldn't place why. As we were leaving, he handed me a piece of paper and said I should look him up, and with a smile, said goodbye. I found the famous author : Richard P. Feynman, and realized I underlined something he wrote in one of my books:
"I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics. Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, "But how can it be like that?" because you will go down the drain into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that."
But what has that to do with religion and/or God? Same answer as above.
Quote from: AbbyTC on December 31, 2018, 06:55:14 PM
Hoping things get better for you, Libby. From what I can tell of you from our interactions here, you seem to me like a strong woman.
I like the lines Hank found, particularly "I am the master of my fate". I know I've read this poem before; maybe high school or college.
Thanks, Abby. I agree with what you wrote about the part I didn't post that Hank pointed out. :smile:
Quote from: libby on December 31, 2018, 12:00:37 AM
Hello and thanks, Hank. It did however surprise me to learn that you like it.
I really do like it! I see it as a message of - never losing hope no matter what the circumstance, and how you control your fate and decide your future is up to you- the difference in that statement between you and I, I "think" is.......that I believe I choose my fate and future with the precept that I am letting God control things....I have faith/hope in ALL things because of my faith in God. That is just the way I choose to view life. It works wonderful for me. But, that is something everyone has to find what works for them.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on January 02, 2019, 03:03:27 PM
I really do like it! I see it as a message of - never losing hope no matter what the circumstance, and how you control your fate and decide your future is up to you- the difference in that statement between you and I, I "think" is.......that I believe I choose my fate and future with the precept that I am letting God control things....I have faith/hope in ALL things because of my faith in God. That is just the way I choose to view life. It works wonderful for me. But, that is something everyone has to find what works for them.
:spooked: Well, faith in God didn't work for me when I prayed for him to save my father, who was dying of cancer. In your opinion, why didn't God answer MY prayers? Because he has favorites? -- or I did something wrong? I was only 16 and I believed.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on January 02, 2019, 03:03:27 PM
I really do like it! I see it as a message of - never losing hope no matter what the circumstance, and how you control your fate and decide your future is up to you- the difference in that statement between you and I, I "think" is.......that I believe I choose my fate and future with the precept that I am letting God control things....I have faith/hope in ALL things because of my faith in God. That is just the way I choose to view life. It works wonderful for me. But, that is something everyone has to find what works for them.
Henry, I don't understand your statement " I believe I choose my fate and future with the precept that I am letting God control things..." that seems like a conflicting thought. (I'm not being argumentative, I've been there, and being out of it, I see the inaneness of the sentence.) In reality, YOU are the one who makes the decisions and steers your life. I have Christian friends who say, "I prayed for an answer and didn't get one. So I'm going to use my judgement and make a decision." It isn't god who is answering and making those decisions, it's you. You may feel it's god because you prayed and felt like you got direction, but in reality you have made the decision using your own thought process on how to proceed
To piggyback off of Libby,
Quote from: libby on January 02, 2019, 06:12:28 PM
why didn't God answer MY prayers? Because he has favorites? -- or I did something wrong?
"... why didn't God answer MY prayers?...." Where was god when I cried out for help as an abused child? (I grew up in a "christian" home so praying and believing was something I knew and did.) What about as an abused wife? I have problems believing a god who would turn his back on a child being abused, or, according to the Bible, only allowing divorce if there is adultery. It wasn't until I took matters in my own hands and stopped praying did things change. Like the poem says, I am the master of my fate.
What happens when two football teams pray to win? God must have a favorite then! ;D Again, Henry, I'm not trying to pick a fight or be an ass about this. How do you answer these questions?
Sometimes there are no words, like now, when I'm tired and sleepy. And besides, Abby, you said it so well. :smitten:.
Quote from: libby on January 02, 2019, 06:12:28 PM
In your opinion, why didn't God answer MY prayers? Because he has favorites? -- or I did something wrong? I was only 16 and I believed.
Libby, since YOU are asking for MY opinion, I will share. I believe, ONCE you have "Faith" in God in the fashion that He is wanting, you can accept the final outcome by knowing that God (such as in your case with your father) that He has called your father to his ultimate home. You did nothing wrong and He doesn't have favorites. Life on this earth is temporary. Our after life is eternal. THAT is what "I" believe. Why God allows some to live horrible lives and some to have wonderful lives, I don't fully understand, but I have a "FAITH" that knowing He has a better place for us, on His timing. That is what sustains me.
I too, have struggled the very same way you have with your father. I lost my mother years ago to cancer. I lost an extremely close friend to a horrible disease, who was a great Godly man. It selfishly bothered me that God took these people away. But, ultimately, I know that they are HOME! I don't know God's logic, but I accept that He is God. GOD. The creator of Life.
I probably am not making any sense to you, but that is the best I can do with putting my thoughts to text. I'm not a church going person. I don't preach or push my religious views on anyone. If somebody asks me, I will share.
Quote from: AbbyTC on January 02, 2019, 07:19:01 PM
Henry, I don't understand your statement " I believe I choose my fate and future with the precept that I am letting God control things..." that seems like a conflicting thought. (I'm not being argumentative, I've been there, and being out of it, I see the inaneness of the sentence.) In reality, YOU are the one who makes the decisions and steers your life.
Abby, I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul, because I have made the free-will decision to accept Christ as my Savior, and I live my life the best I can, knowing that my fate and my soul are secured, by the promises of God. "I" made the decision. It's that simple to me. Am I wrong? I don't believe I am.
Quote from: AbbyTC on January 02, 2019, 07:19:01 PM
In reality, YOU are the one who makes the decisions and steers your life. I have Christian friends who say, "I prayed for an answer and didn't get one. So I'm going to use my judgement and make a decision." It isn't god who is answering and making those decisions, it's you. You may feel it's god because you prayed and felt like you got direction, but in reality you have made the decision using your own thought process on how to proceed
I agree, that "I" am the one who makes "MY" decisions. Yes, I do indeed pray. I don't always get an "answer" like I wish....but, I have learned to "try" to follow my heart when making a decision. I don't always, sometimes I use my brain (LOL) and that is when I usually go down the wrong path. Hey, again, this is what works for me, and this is what I believe. Yes, you are right that WE make our own decisions based upon our own thought process. I know that God gives us all the ability to know right and wrong....the closer you get to God, the easier it is to distinguish these thoughts....and you paths can become much clearer in the direction He want's you to go.
Again, there is a great chance you are not following me, but this is the best I can do putting it to words.
Quote from: AbbyTC on January 02, 2019, 07:19:01 PM
To piggyback off of Libby, "... why didn't God answer MY prayers?...." Where was god when I cried out for help as an abused child? (I grew up in a "christian" home so praying and believing was something I knew and did.) What about as an abused wife? I have problems believing a god who would turn his back on a child being abused, or, according to the Bible, only allowing divorce if there is adultery. It wasn't until I took matters in my own hands and stopped praying did things change. Like the poem says, I am the master of my fate.
I don't think I can possibly answer this for you....all I know, is this. We live in a sinful world. I believe, and this is me, but God allowed this sin to happen on earth so we will know and appreciate His ultimate goal for us. Can we know LOVE without experiencing HATE? Can we know Joy without experiencing Sorrow? Can we know comfort without experiencing Pain? He has promised us life after death on earth....a place called paradise. All He want in return is for us to have FAITH in Him and accept He has put forth a plan to achieve it.
I want to stress right now, I'm not a preacher or some "holly roller"...I'm a guy, who has been fortunate enough to build a relationship with God. It works for me and so far it is working for my family.
As far as the divorce thing, I don't think it maters (IN MY OPINION) when you have a personal relationship with God. He knows your heart. That's the best I can answer.
Quote from: AbbyTC on January 02, 2019, 07:19:01 PM
What happens when two football teams pray to win? God must have a favorite then! ;D Again, Henry, I'm not trying to pick a fight or be an ass about this. How do you answer these questions?
My opinion is that God doesn't give a crap about who wins a football game. I think He loves for his people to pray to Him though....I think God has an ego, and digs it when people choose to rely on Him.
Abby, I don't look at it as you trying to pick a fight nor are you being an ass......these are all great questions and I don't know if I did a lick of good answering them, but I did answer them the best I could.
Thank you Henry for your answers. I don't agree with you; probably because of all I've been through. I can't put aside logic and critical thinking skills for belief. I tried some time ago and realized it doesn't work.