It would appear that we all may very well get the opportunity to find out which of us is correct pertaining to Russia's willingness to go to war and the International community's willingness to hold it accountable for potential war crimes.
Turkey shot down a Russian Jet Fighter that had violated its airspace, reportedly after 5 minutes of warning it to leave. Turkey is a NATO member country which we are sworn to protect, and Putin is calling it a stab in the back. . . The international community is storming over this incident, and given Russia's proclivity to react very aggressively toward what it perceives as attacks, I suspect a very bad situation is about to get exponentially worse. . . :spooked:
I was wondering if someone was going to bring that up today.
We better get the FACTS before we react. I don't see how we can have any trust with either of these countries.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on November 24, 2015, 11:27:21 AM
We better get the FACTS before we react. I don't see how we can have any trust with either of these countries.
Huh?
Quote from: Exterminator on November 24, 2015, 12:42:08 PM
Huh?
You know exactly what I mean....if we decide to back up Turkey and Russia bombs the shit out of them, what do we do? If we decide Russia did nothing wrong, do we agree with Russia bombing the shit out of Turkey.....Did Russia fly into an area they were NOT supposed too? Did Turkey shoot down a Russian jet when the jet was in authorized territory?
Somebody is lying and I don't trust either one....so do we have FACTS on this or just taking the word of one of them?
Is there some part about Turkey being a NATO country that you are having trouble grasping?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on November 24, 2015, 11:27:21 AM
We better get the FACTS before we react. I don't see how we can have any trust with either of these countries.
"NATO Member" means we are obligated to back them. Period.
That being said, Russia may very well not provide anyone time to assess factual evidence before it reacts. The US and France are calling for no one to react until the incident can be properly assessed. Russia has a demonstrated proclivity for reacting first and with extreme prejudice.
THAT will result in the US being required to back Turkey in such an occurrence. Period.
Russia's arrogance is likely the root cause of this, and a key element of the inherent danger of having so many powerful participants in an operational theatre. I am sure ISIS has been counting on just this kind of thing happening. . .
Quote from: Henry Hawk on November 24, 2015, 12:59:59 PM
You know exactly what I mean....if we decide to back up Turkey and Russia bombs the shit out of them, what do we do? If we decide Russia did nothing wrong, do we agree with Russia bombing the shit out of Turkey.....Did Russia fly into an area they were NOT supposed too? Did Turkey shoot down a Russian jet when the jet was in authorized territory?
Somebody is lying and I don't trust either one....so do we have FACTS on this or just taking the word of one of them?
What facts are you talking about?
1. The Russians said the Turks shot it down.
2. The Turks confirmed they shot it down.
Ergo, the Turks shot it down.
The Russians claim it was shot down over Syrian airspace. The Turks maintain that they warned it 10 times after repeated incursions into Turkish airspace. Is that what you're talking about?
As far as who is more believable on this matter, I'm with the Turks given the way Putin has been flexing his muscles around the world.
Quote from: Locutus on November 24, 2015, 01:42:12 PM
As far as who is more believable on this matter, I'm with the Turks given the way Putin has been flexing his muscles around the world.
Yep, the Russians have been intentionally violating the air space of other countries for some time now.
Quote from: Locutus on November 24, 2015, 01:42:12 PM
What facts are you talking about?
1. The Russians said the Turks shot it down.
2. The Turks confirmed they shot it down.
Ergo, the Turks shot it down.
The Russians claim it was shot down over Syrian airspace. The Turks maintain that they warned it 10 times after repeated incursions into Turkish airspace. Is that what you're talking about?
As far as who is more believable on this matter, I'm with the Turks given the way Putin has been flexing his muscles around the world.
Yeah, that is EXACTLY what I am saying....
With that said, there are pretty strong claims with the Turks collaborating with ISIS........So.....Putin, is doing what he can to destroy ISIS.....maybe he is trying to draw Turkey into mix, to give him a good excuse to wipe out ISIS in Turkey.....
??
Quote from: Exterminator on November 24, 2015, 02:14:45 PM
Yep, the Russians have been intentionally violating the air space of other countries for some time now.
Including our own. . .
. . . And now an apparent terrorist attack in Tunisia after a bus exploded killing at least 15. . . They have declared a state of emergency.
A Russian marine has been killed during an attempted rescue operation for one of the pilots of the downed jet.
Uh oh! This isn't good.
A U.S. official told CNN that a calculation shows the Russian jet was in Turkish airspace for 30 seconds or less. The Turkish government has said that it issued 10 warnings over five minutes but did not say all of those warnings occurred while the jet was in their airspace.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/warplane-crashes-near-syria-turkey-border/index.html
Quote from: Locutus on November 24, 2015, 05:49:09 PM
Uh oh! This isn't good.
A U.S. official told CNN that a calculation shows the Russian jet was in Turkish airspace for 30 seconds or less. The Turkish government has said that it issued 10 warnings over five minutes but did not say all of those warnings occurred while the jet was in their airspace.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/warplane-crashes-near-syria-turkey-border/index.html
That American made fighter flew by the Turks sure took out that killing Russian bomber, that was killing Turks on the ground. :thumbsup: :yes: :laugh:
Quote from: Locutus on November 24, 2015, 05:49:09 PM
Uh oh! This isn't good.
A U.S. official told CNN that a calculation shows the Russian jet was in Turkish airspace for 30 seconds or less. The Turkish government has said that it issued 10 warnings over five minutes but did not say all of those warnings occurred while the jet was in their airspace.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/warplane-crashes-near-syria-turkey-border/index.html
THIS is exactly what I meant by getting the FACTS straight before we jump in and side with someone.......
Quote from: Henry Hawk on November 25, 2015, 07:51:16 AM
THIS is exactly what I meant by getting the FACTS straight before we jump in and side with someone.......
Turkey considers any aircraft within 8 kilometers of its border to be a violation of its airspace. That has been in place since June of 2012 and everyone operating in the area should be aware of it.
Quote from: Exterminator on November 25, 2015, 08:51:17 AM
Turkey considers any aircraft within 8 kilometers of its border to be a violation of its airspace. That has been in place since June of 2012 and everyone operating in the area should be aware of it.
Turkey has also been known for harboring terrorists, so screw them if they want others to CONSIDER their own rules on how to play nice.
I'm not ready to take sides, I just don't trust either one of these guys.....both have some serious baggage.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on November 25, 2015, 08:58:13 AM
Turkey has also been known for harboring terrorists, so screw them if they want others to CONSIDER their own rules on how to play nice.
Known? Your source for this, please?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on November 25, 2015, 08:58:13 AM
Turkey has also been known for harboring terrorists, so screw them if they want others to CONSIDER their own rules on how to play nice.
I'm not ready to take sides, I just don't trust either one of these guys.....both have some serious baggage.
But on the other side, you think Putin is a strong and wonderful leader, far better of a leader than O0 Obama. Right, Chicken Hawk? :kazz:
Quote from: Exterminator on November 25, 2015, 09:16:23 AM
Known? Your source for this, please?
Google it! There are tons of sources on this.
Quote from: The Troll on November 25, 2015, 10:36:37 AM
But on the other side, you think Putin is a strong and wonderful leader, far better of a leader than O0 Obama. Right, Chicken Hawk? :kazz:
I don't particularly like either of them. I think Putin is a much stronger leader, but I don't for a second believe he is any more wonderful.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on November 25, 2015, 11:21:23 AM
Google it! There are tons of sources on this.
I have; that's why I was asking. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on November 25, 2015, 11:21:23 AM
Google it! There are tons of sources on this.
. . . And the majority of those sources amount to hearsay and are not legitimate or credible. "According to a confidential source in the state department. . .", blah, blah, blah.
Personal opinions are like assholes; everyone's got one; and until someone with credibility enlightens us on the realities what we've got is speculation.
Until that time:
- Russia is a known protagonist and aggressor, with a very well known and documented proclivity for doing exactly what Turkey says it did in this case.
- Turkey is a Member of NATO.
- The US is required to support Turkey until such time it is proven that they violated NATO requirements.
If the evidence supports the claims of either one of these nations, then NATO will adjudicate and prescribe the actions necessary to remediate the issues.
If Russia takes matters into their own hands, (as they are prone to do), without awaiting NATO's decision, then all bets are off and WW III begins; exactly what ISIS wants to happen.
Quote from: Palehorse on November 25, 2015, 11:44:32 AM
. . . And the majority of those sources amount to hearsay and are not legitimate or credible. "According to a confidential source in the state department. . .", blah, blah, blah.
Personal opinions are like assholes; everyone's got one; and until someone with credibility enlightens us on the realities what we've got is speculation.
Until that time:
- Russia is a known protagonist and aggressor, with a very well known and documented proclivity for doing exactly what Turkey says it did in this case.
- Turkey is a Member of NATO.
- The US is required to support Turkey until such time it is proven that they violated NATO requirements.
If the evidence supports the claims of either one of these nations, then NATO will adjudicate and prescribe the actions necessary to remediate the issues.
If Russia takes matters into their own hands, (as they are prone to do), without awaiting NATO's decision, then all bets are off and WW III begins; exactly what ISIS wants to happen.
I'm really not disagreeing with you at all.......as a mater of fact I agree with much of what you say...........but, for some reason, I am not willing to take Turkeys word and have an uneasy feeling over them.
I think Putin ALWAYS has ulterior motives.........
This whole thing is BS.......and needs to be handled carefully...imo.
And now Russia is deploying a battery of anti-aircraft missiles near Turkey and inside Syria. . .
The next step in this playbook is to repeat flying the tight wire between the two countries and if Turkey deploys aircraft to shoot them down.
:spooked: :spooked:
..... and ISIS watches salivating.
Quote from: Locutus on November 25, 2015, 06:06:39 PM
..... and ISIS watches salivating.
Exactly. . . :eek:
ISIS wants boots on the ground though. Not sure how quickly that may shape up, if at all.
Quote from: Locutus on November 25, 2015, 06:19:18 PM
ISIS wants boots on the ground though. Not sure how quickly that may shape up, if at all.
If that becomes a viable option, and at this point I do not believe it is, then we ALL, ALL NATIONS, have to go all in on these assholes. No quarter, and no stopping until every single one of them are eliminated from the face of the earth. :rant:
Quote from: Palehorse on November 25, 2015, 06:23:12 PM
If that becomes a viable option, and at this point I do not believe it is, then we ALL, ALL NATIONS, have to go all in on these assholes. No quarter, and no stopping until every single one of them are eliminated from the face of the earth. :rant:
Yes Sir, kill all of the bastards. There is no rehabilitation for the killers. Shoot, burn, blowup, run over, no prisoners. Death to all of bottom slime of a septic tank religious killers. :devil4: :hanged: :behead: :rifle: :knife: