Federal agents swooped in on Gibson Guitar Wednesday, raiding factories and offices in Memphis and Nashville, seizing several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars. The Feds are keeping mum, but in a statement yesterday Gibson's chairman and CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, defended his company's manufacturing policies, accusing the Justice Department of bullying the company. "The wood the government seized Wednesday is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier," he said, suggesting the Feds are using the aggressive enforcement of overly broad laws to make the company cry uncle.
It isn't the first time that agents of the Fish and Wildlife Service have come knocking at the storied maker of such iconic instruments as the Les Paul electric guitar, the J-160E acoustic-electric John Lennon played, and essential jazz-boxes such as Charlie Christian's ES-150. In 2009 the Feds seized several guitars and pallets of wood from a Gibson factory, and both sides have been wrangling over the goods in a case with the delightful name "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms."
The question in the first raid seemed to be whether Gibson had been buying illegally harvested hardwoods from protected forests, such as the Madagascar ebony that makes for such lovely fretboards. And if Gibson did knowingly import illegally harvested ebony from Madagascar, that wouldn't be a negligible offense. Peter Lowry, ebony and rosewood expert at the Missouri Botanical Garden, calls the Madagascar wood trade the "equivalent of Africa's blood diamonds." But with the new raid, the government seems to be questioning whether some wood sourced from India met every regulatory jot and tittle.
It isn't just Gibson that is sweating. Musicians who play vintage guitars and other instruments made of environmentally protected materials are worried the authorities may be coming for them next.
If you are the lucky owner of a 1920s Martin guitar, it may well be made, in part, of Brazilian rosewood. Cross an international border with an instrument made of that now-restricted wood, and you better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument. Otherwise, you could lose it to a zealous customs agent—not to mention face fines and prosecution.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
If they did it, they deserve if. But it's easy to prove whether it's true what the government is saying or not. About coming after already built and sold guitars, forget it. It won't happen. they will just fine them for each guitars they sold. It's easier. :doh:
The scientists now can check where the tree came from through DNA testing. It's 100% accurate. Wait and see, we will find out for sure. Don't get your panties bunched up and choke you. Chunker. :kiss:
I was just researching this yesterday and the Justice Department is way out of line here. And yes, Troll, they will sieze an already built and sold guitar unless the owner can document when the guitar was made and where the wood originates. Most artists won't cross borders with their most valuable instruments anymore for this reason. They did this same thing to Gibson two years ago and never filed any charges and Gibson is still fighting in court to get their wood back.
The Lacey act is a joke...it allows the government to sieze anything crossing the border into the U.S. unless the owner can prove that the materials used did not violate the laws of the country in which they originate at the time that material was exported. Theoretically, they could seize a Bentley if you couldn't prove where the wood in the dash came from. Leather, textiles, etc. are also suspect...just about anything.
Quote from: Exterminator on August 29, 2011, 10:49:54 AM
I was just researching this yesterday and the Justice Department is way out of line here. And yes, Troll, they will sieze an already built and sold guitar unless the owner can document when the guitar was made and where the wood originates. Most artists won't cross borders with their most valuable instruments anymore for this reason. They did this same thing to Gibson two years ago and never filed any charges and Gibson is still fighting in court to get their wood back.
The Lacey act is a joke...it allows the government to sieze anything crossing the border into the U.S. unless the owner can prove that the materials used did not violate the laws of the country in which they originate at the time that material was exported. Theoretically, they could seize a Bentley if you couldn't prove where the wood in the dash came from. Leather, textiles, etc. are also suspect...just about anything.
That really sucks. I'd probably better let a friend of mine in on this in case he doesn't already know. He makes things out of wood he has to have a permit to getm including ebony, and sells them on Ebay and different places. Some are pens which cost over $100 per pen and a lot of Doctors and professionals, who may possibly travel overseas, buy them. Wonder if it would cover something like that.
*Wouldn't that be seize? :razz:
You got me, me; I wasn't sure of the spelling so I used the spell checker and it didn't change the two out of 3 that I misspelled...wtf? So much for i before e except after c...
I'm guessing you can get a pen through customs if you simply don't declare it. If you do, they could take it.
Quote from: Exterminator on August 29, 2011, 10:49:54 AM
I was just researching this yesterday and the Justice Department is way out of line here. And yes, Troll, they will sieze an already built and sold guitar unless the owner can document when the guitar was made and where the wood originates. Most artists won't cross borders with their most valuable instruments anymore for this reason. They did this same thing to Gibson two years ago and never filed any charges and Gibson is still fighting in court to get their wood back.
The Lacey act is a joke...it allows the government to sieze anything crossing the border into the U.S. unless the owner can prove that the materials used did not violate the laws of the country in which they originate at the time that material was exported. Theoretically, they could seize a Bentley if you couldn't prove where the wood in the dash came from. Leather, textiles, etc. are also suspect...just about anything.
let me say this, the ass holes have to find it first. It was stolen. By who, I don't know. :biggrin:
This is a symptom of the declining revenue streams. I have an early model year 92 Alvarez made of exotic wood and en ebony fret board. . . The strat I just bought also has a rosewood fretboard.
Quote from: Exterminator on August 29, 2011, 04:05:43 PM
You got me, me; I wasn't sure of the spelling so I used the spell checker and it didn't change the two out of 3 that I misspelled...wtf? So much for i before e except after c...
I'm guessing you can get a pen through customs if you simply don't declare it. If you do, they could take it.
I was thinking about someone having it in a shirt pocket where it would be visible. Oh well, I'm sure he probably knows about it 'cause he hangs out on the net in places where they would discuss it when he ain't in the shop.
*Don't forget or sounded like "A" as in neighbor or weigh. There are some words that don't know the rule I guess huh? :wink:
Quote from: Palehorse on August 29, 2011, 05:28:28 PM
This is a symptom of the declining revenue streams. I have an early model year 92 Alvarez made of exotic wood and en ebony fret board. . . The strat I just bought also has a rosewood fretboard.
I sure hope they don't start going after musicians who are seen playing them onstage or famous ones they know have them. That would really bite.
Quote from: me on August 29, 2011, 05:44:57 PM
I sure hope they don't start going after musicians who are seen playing them onstage or famous ones they know have them. That would really bite.
It's only an issue crossing the border into the U.S.
Quote from: Exterminator on August 29, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
It's only an issue crossing the border into the U.S.
I know but, like PH said, shortage of money and all that stuff. In reality I think something like that would be more of a hassle than it would be worth in the long run.
I'm not a musician, I just date them ;D so I haven't' read through this thread. Pardon me if this was already posted. I saw it and thought of this conversation.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department?sc=fb&cc=fp
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on August 31, 2011, 10:08:35 PM
I'm not a musician, I just date them ;D so I haven't' read through this thread. Pardon me if this was already posted. I saw it and thought of this conversation.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department?sc=fb&cc=fp
Yep, that's what we were discussing. :wink:
It is going to be easy to prove if the wood is illegal or not. If it is illegal wood and Gibson has been warned in the past that's between Gibson and the government.
I just think there are more pressing issues in the country than Gibson Guitar. :rolleyes:
Quote from: The Troll on September 01, 2011, 06:06:56 AM
I just think there are more pressing issues in the country than Gibson Guitar. :rolleyes:
But hey, let's target one of the last companies in the country that actually makes anything here!
Quote from: Exterminator on September 01, 2011, 08:33:50 AM
But hey, let's target one of the last companies in the country that actually makes anything here!
You're damn right EX. How about targeting the bankers, the stock market, the hedge funds and the payday loan companies. The drug companies, health insurance companies and so on and so no, and so on. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :rant:
I just learned a tidbit of interesting info. The Gibson factory is the only guitar maker targeted and, guess what, the CEO is a Republican. Hum, wonder what's wrong with that picture.
Quote from: me on September 07, 2011, 12:15:35 PM
I just learned a tidbit of interesting info. The Gibson factory is the only guitar maker targeted and, guess what, the CEO is a Republican. Hum, wonder what's wrong with that picture.
Give me a break! :groan: Butthole. :cry: :cry: :cry:
I have just really "tuned" in here (no pun intended.. :razz: ) but WOW, this really reeks...."While the feds say the wood – as imported – is illegal, had it been 'finished' by workers in India, it would have been perfectly legal to import. The wood itself was not banned, just the manufacturing process – or lack of it."....One does have to wonder WHY this is happening.........also, it just goes to show you how SOME of the regulations can be "impeding" on business....Gov needs to figure out a way to back out of business and quit sticking it's nose in it.
Quote from: me on September 07, 2011, 12:15:35 PM
I just learned a tidbit of interesting info. The Gibson factory is the only guitar maker targeted and, guess what, the CEO is a Republican. Hum, wonder what's wrong with that picture.
Don't fret. They'll only pick on him for a while. Just stringin' him along
Quote from: Henry Hawk on September 07, 2011, 01:38:28 PM
I have just really "tuned" in here (no pun intended.. :razz: ) but WOW, this really reeks...."While the feds say the wood – as imported – is illegal, had it been 'finished' by workers in India, it would have been perfectly legal to import. The wood itself was not banned, just the manufacturing process – or lack of it."....One does have to wonder WHY this is happening.........also, it just goes to show you how SOME of the regulations can be "impeding" on business....Gov needs to figure out a way to back out of business and quit sticking it's nose in it.
I was just going to add that little tidbit of info too. There goes some more jobs plus the claim that it is an all American made product. This whole thing is just pure BS.
Quote from: me on September 07, 2011, 01:46:54 PM
I was just going to add that little tidbit of info too. There goes some more jobs plus the claim that it is an all American made product. This whole thing is just pure BS.
That's all the fuss. Either it is illegal or not. DNA will prove one way or the other wither it is rare wood that cannot be harvested or not.
And record keeping will tell if the wood was boughten legal or illegal. The courts will decide. No job will be lost unless the company was willfully buying rare wood and if they did they deserve to be fined.
Always wanting to put the horse behind the cart to pull it. :rolleyes: :razz:
Quote from: The Troll on September 07, 2011, 03:43:00 PM
That's all the fuss. Either it is illegal or not. DNA will prove one way or the other wither it is rare wood that cannot be harvested or not.
And record keeping will tell if the wood was boughten legal or illegal. The courts will decide. No job will be lost unless the company was willfully buying rare wood and if they did they deserve to be fined.
Always wanting to put the horse behind the cart to pull it. :rolleyes: :razz:
It was purchased legally and they have been doing it since day one so why are they making a big deal out of it now. It's BS and you know it. The wood is just as rare if it already has the frets and inlays put in....got it duffus.
Quote from: me on September 07, 2011, 04:25:53 PM
It was purchased legally and they have been doing it since day one so why are they making a big deal out of it now. It's BS and you know it. The wood is just as rare if it already has the frets and inlays put in....got it duffus.
Just how do you know all of the bull shit you are putting out is true. Do you have direct inside connection with this raid. :doh:
Oh, I forgot the CEO is a Republican and Obama did this. :doh: :music1: Sour Note :music1:
Quote from: The Troll on September 07, 2011, 07:01:52 PM
Just how do you know all of the bull shit you are putting out is true. Do you have direct inside connection with this raid. :doh:
Oh, I forgot the CEO is a Republican and Obama did this. :doh: :music1: Sour Note :music1:
Obama's appointee did it. Why now? Why only that company? Why would it be legal even without a permit if the same wood had already had the inlays and frets in it? I'm sure they didn't have to confiscate the wood that was aging or being readied to put on a guitar neck they could have checked for the proper permits first. Gibson has been making guitars for years and other guitar makers use the same materials so why just Gibson? Any way you slice it it's BS and going to cause a loss of jobs which are badly needed right now.
You obviously haven't had any exposure to the international pallet/skid industry. If you had, you'd know that all that tripe you just spewed was utter nonsense!
http://na.fs.fed.us/ss/06/werc/woodpacking_standards.pdf (http://na.fs.fed.us/ss/06/werc/woodpacking_standards.pdf)
And here's a little light reading for you on the subject:
. . .CITES was drafted as a result of a resolution adopted in 1963 at a meeting of members of IUCN (The World Conservation Union). The text of the Convention was finally agreed at a meeting of representatives of 80 countries in Washington DC., United States of America, on 3 March 1973, and on 1 July 1975 CITES entered in force. . .
http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/what.php (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/what.php)
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/plant_imports/wood_packaging_materials.shtml (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/plant_imports/wood_packaging_materials.shtml)
http://www.fas.usda.gov/ffpd/highlights/ISPM_15_Frequently_Asked_Questions.pdf
(http://www.fas.usda.gov/ffpd/highlights/ISPM_15_Frequently_Asked_Questions.pdf)
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/897/~/importing-wood-products-into-the-united-states
(https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/897/~/importing-wood-products-into-the-united-states)
http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php)
http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/CITES_Treaty.pdf (http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/CITES_Treaty.pdf)
That's all well and good but we aren't talking pallets here we're talking rosewood for fret boards. It is wood you have to have a permit for to even purchase it legally and the purpose in buying it is to finish it into something not to buy it already finished which you can do without a permit. Does this mean all the other guitar makers and furniture makers are going to be subject to the same thing that just happened to Gibson and that the Chinese are going to have to make the product for them and then ship it to them? I'm sorry but I just can't figure any way to justify what they did.
Quote from: me on September 08, 2011, 03:35:32 AM
That's all well and good but we aren't talking pallets here we're talking rosewood for fret boards. It is wood you have to have a permit for to even purchase it legally and the purpose in buying it is to finish it into something not to buy it already finished which you can do without a permit. Does this mean all the other guitar makers and furniture makers are going to be subject to the same thing that just happened to Gibson and that the Chinese are going to have to make the product for them and then ship it to them? I'm sorry but I just can't figure any way to justify what they did.
You just validated my assumptions that you wouldn't read a damned thing i posted, nor any of the links provided in order to enlighten you surrounding the importation of wood world wide. . . :rolleyes:
Quote from: Palehorse on September 08, 2011, 04:02:44 AM
You just validated my assumptions that you wouldn't read a damned thing i posted, nor any of the links provided in order to enlighten you surrounding the importation of wood world wide. . . :rolleyes:
The ones I did read only talked about shipping containers and pallet wood and I can understand the need to keep an close watch on that because it's cheap junk wood.
http://www.fas.usda.gov/ffpd/highlights/ISPM_15_Frequently_Asked_Questions.pdf
I think where "ME" came up with all of this liberal stuff causing Gibson trouble. I went into Goggle and it's all there. But the liberal thing that came from "ME" came for the far right wing website, the Rightscoop. All most word for word that came out of "Me" mouth came from here. Why didn't we guess it didn't come from her brain. :doh: :jester:
Quote from: me on September 08, 2011, 11:06:47 AM
The ones I did read only talked about shipping containers and pallet wood and I can understand the need to keep an close watch on that because it's cheap junk wood.
http://www.fas.usda.gov/ffpd/highlights/ISPM_15_Frequently_Asked_Questions.pdf
CITES - http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php)
http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/what.php (http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/what.php)
http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/CITES_Treaty.pdf (http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/CITES_Treaty.pdf)
Those pertain directly to the importation of wood!
. . .CITES was drafted as a result of a resolution
adopted in 1963 at a meeting of members of IUCN (The World Conservation Union). The text of the Convention was finally agreed at a meeting of representatives of 80 countries in Washington DC., United States of America, on 3 March 1973, and
on 1 July 1975 CITES entered in force. . .I'd say that it did NOT just start, but perhaps is being scaled up due to the declining revenue streams, just as I predicted would happen.
Off topic ... (sort of)
I am the proud original of a 1968 Gibson EB0! Paid $495 for it in early 1969. Still have it. My daughter played it in a band when she was in college.
(http://www.musurgia.com/images/2447_bassguitar/large/2447_1.jpg)
Nice!
Quote from: Olias on September 08, 2011, 01:56:21 PM
I am the proud original of a 1968 Gibson EB0! Paid $495 for it in early 1969. Still have it. My daughter played it in a band when she was in college.
Sorry ... that should have been "original owner" ....
Quote from: Olias on September 08, 2011, 01:56:21 PM
Off topic ... (sort of)
I am the proud original of a 1968 Gibson EB0! Paid $495 for it in early 1969. Still have it. My daughter played it in a band when she was in college.
(http://www.musurgia.com/images/2447_bassguitar/large/2447_1.jpg)
Very nice.
Quote from: Olias on September 08, 2011, 01:56:21 PM
Off topic ... (sort of)
I am the proud original of a 1968 Gibson EB0! Paid $495 for it in early 1969. Still have it. My daughter played it in a band when she was in college.
(http://www.musurgia.com/images/2447_bassguitar/large/2447_1.jpg)
Better hide it Olias, them government men might get for the rare wood that's in it. Looks good. :ogle: :rock: Can you play it as good as it looks. :wink:
Quote from: The Troll on September 08, 2011, 10:24:52 PM
Better hide it Olias, them government men might get for the rare wood that's in it. Looks good. :ogle: :rock: Can you play it as good as it looks. :wink:
Yes. Many years ago, I could play very well. Did it professionally for a few years.
How hard could it be; there are only four strings! :razz:
Uh-oh.
Quote from: Exterminator on September 09, 2011, 10:38:12 AM
How hard could it be; there are only four strings! :razz:
:razz:
:biggrin:
Quote from: Exterminator on September 09, 2011, 10:38:12 AM
How hard could it be; there are only four strings! :razz:
As Ahab the suicide bomber said, one of Jeff Dunham dummies, "You racist bastard" :biggrin:
Quote from: followsthewolf on September 09, 2011, 12:50:26 PM
Uh-oh.
Anyone who's ever been in bands has a collection of jokes about all of the other musicians...especially drummers. :biggrin:
Quote from: Exterminator on September 09, 2011, 01:56:33 PM
Anyone who's ever been in bands has a collection of jokes about all of the other musicians...especially drummers. :biggrin:
Yep drummers and bass players seem to be hit the hardest for some reason.
Quote from: Exterminator on September 09, 2011, 01:56:33 PM
Anyone who's ever been in bands has a collection of jokes about all of the other musicians...especially drummers. :biggrin:
Ain't it the truth. :biggrin: