Here is a well written article that I want to share with you guys. It is just an opinion peice, but I find it very, very interesting.
Waiting for Superman the Movie
By James A Watkins
Waiting for Superman is a documentary about the schools in the United States. The filmmaker is a liberal who felt guilty about sending his child to a private school, since liberals are staunch supporters of public school teachers unions.
>Truth be told, the majority of liberals who can afford private schools send their children to them, while voicing the greatness of the public school system for everybody else. Our filmmaker decided to investigate the schools because he wasn't sure why he didn't trust the public schools with his own child, or if his wariness of them was well-founded.
The result is Waiting for Superman, an extraordinary experience for the viewer. As a side bar, the first scene shows an elementary teacher asking children for a good example of early environmentalism, caring for the earth. The correct answer, the one that brings praise gushing forth from the teacher, is "the white settlers polluted the land and the Native Americans cleaned up their mess."
>
>IS MONEY THE PROBLEM?
>In a word: No. Since 1971, public schools have increased their spending per student by more than double—in constant dollars. But the public schools have not only shown no improvement, results have gotten worse.
Among 8th graders, only 21 percent are proficient at grade level in math; only 27.5 percent proficient in reading. 2,000 high schools in the nation—8 percent of all of them—are described as nothing more than dropout factories.
The worst schools in the United States? In our nation's capital, of course. Washington, D.C., is also the system with the most minority students and the most progressive city government. Grade point averages in DC drop two whole points between 5th and 7th grade.
>THE WORST SCHOOL IN THE COUNTRY
Waiting for Superman highlights one 97 block area served by a Los Angeles High School with the highest dropout rate in the country. In the last 40 years, 20,000 have graduated high school in this area while 40,000 dropped out. Most drop out before the 10th grade.
>These kids enter into high school reading at a 2nd grade level on average. Improper English is encouraged: "Let me axe you sumptin';" "I cries when I sees it," "He be shootin' good today." Black teachers see this as thumbing the nose at the white power system in America—a good thing.
The area is full of young people with no education, no diploma, no skills, and no aspirations. School is not considered important.
Then consider that 68 percent of prison inmates are high school dropouts. And it costs society (taxpayers) $33,000 a year to house, guard, and feed them. For that same amount of money—based on an average prison term of four years—each of them could have attended private schools for 13 years (@$8300 per year). Why don't we do that? The teachers unions—and their lackeys, progressive legislators— won't allow it.
A SURE RECIPE FOR MIND CONTROL
>
>ARE ALL TEACHERS EQUAL?
Waiting for Superman claims that a bad teacher can set back a student an entire year. A good teacher will teach 150 percent of the curriculum during a year, but a bad teacher will only get through 50 percent of the curriculum. Students with high performing teachers learn three times as much in a school year but both teachers get paid the same. They get paid equally as a sop to Marxism, the prevailing ideology of the teachers unions.
>In 1991, a public school classroom in Milwaukee was secretly videotaped by a student. It shows the kids shooting craps during class, while the teacher reads the newspaper. After this hit the news, the principle decided to fire the teacher. He was soon forced to rehire him by the teachers union, with back pay. The teacher was guaranteed a job for life and could not be fired under the collective bargaining contract. "Collective" was a favorite word of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao.
ALL CITIZENS PAY TO SUPPORT RADICAL LEFTIST POLITICS
>
>THE TEACHERS UNIONS
>The teachers unions are the largest political campaign contributors> in the United States. They donated 55 million dollars in the last election, over 90 percent of it to candidates of the Democratic Party. In other words, all Americans of all political persuasions pay the teacher salaries, out of which are deducted union dues that only support one political party. It must be great to have your campaigns financed by your political enemies.
It is widely felt that the biggest obstacle to improving schools is the teachers unions. They will not allow schools to distinguish between teachers, except by seniority. Great teachers can in no wise be rewarded. All comrades must be paid the same. Anybody with any sense knows this is a disincentive to hard work.
>WHERE DO THE LAZY, CRUMMY TEACHERS GO?
Waiting for Superman reveals something known in the public schools as the "Dance of the Lemons;" also called "Pass the Trash," and "The Turkey Trot." Principals have teachers who are known to everybody to be "lemons" (a defective teacher) but there is no "lemon law" for teachers. Quite the opposite, they can't be fired. All that can be done with them is to pass them on to another school. So, principals trade lemons, "I'll take yours, if you'll take mine."
>Some districts put their lousy teachers in "rubber rooms." This means that they sit and do nothing all day while drawing full salary. Even though the taxpayers must pay them, it is better not to have them in a classroom. The process of firing a teacher takes three years, even for gross sexual violations, snorting cocaine in the classroom, sleeping through class, or missing 74 days of work.
>TAXPAYERS FOOT THE BILL BUT HAVE NO SAY
>Teachers in New York City alone are paid $100,000,000 for doing nothing because they are a danger to students but can't be fired. This is the true purpose of unions: to protect the worst employees>. No star employee needs a union in any field. On the contrary, she is feted and fought over by competitors.
One study mentioned shows that if the worst 10 percent of teachers were fired tomorrow, America would have public schools second to none in the world the next day—but teachers unions won't allow it. In Illinois, out of 876 school districts only 61 have ever tried to fire a teacher. 38 were successful.
One out of 57 doctors in America lost their license last year. One out of every 97 lawyers was disbarred last year. Only one out of 2500 teachers lost their jobs. Imagine if every job in America was guaranteed for life and no one could be fired. That is the Marxist dream. Professional baseball hitters could hit .100 year after year and still be guaranteed a spot on the team.
>CHARTER SCHOOLS
Waiting for Superman focuses on Charter Schools. Catholic Schools and other Christian Schools are not mentioned—even though they far outperform unionized public schools for half the money—probably because our filmmaker is a liberal Jew.
>The Charter Schools featured have had successes that are jaw-dropping. They only have room for so many children and must conduct public lotteries among applicants. Harlem Success Academy had 790 applicants and 42 slots. Many Charter Schools insist on official school uniforms for the children.
The documentary highlights reformers such as Geoffrey Canada, Harlem Parents United, The New Teacher Project, and StudentsFirst.
KIPP LA Schools sends 90 percent of its low-income graduates on to college—over four times the rate of the public schools. There are now 82 KIPP schools; all in bad neighborhoods.
There are also Seed Schools sprouting up that have been amazingly successful by removing the students from their home environment and having them live at the school—a boarding school for disadvantaged children. They allow no television or video games on campus; they hold classes seven days a week.
We know how these non-union schools achieve such incredible success>, but the teachers unions say NO!
>MICHELLE RHEE
Waiting for Superman investigates the case of Michelle Rhee, former chancellor of the District of Columbia Public Schools. Rhee posits that the 14,000 School Boards in the United States have their hands tied by the teachers unions and a vast bureaucracy.
>Michelle Rhee had made clear progress in the Public Schools of Washington, D.C., though she ran up against constant opposition from teachers unions. She sought to purge the schools of incompetent teachers and principals. Previous administrations had hired a huge number of black "teachers" just because they were black. Many did not even have the proper teaching certificates.
The Washington, D.C. schools were spending the 3rd most of any schools in the nation but only 8 percent of 8th graders could do math at grade level. The school district also had twice the national average of classroom space. Rhee closed 24 schools that were under enrolled. She also announced new programs, specifically with more Art and Music.
Michelle Rhee tried to change the way teachers were compensated. She thought the key was to get rid of tenure—a guarantee of a teaching job for life regardless of performance. She offered the teachers union $122,000 per teacher if they would relinquish lifelong tenure. They were making $74,000 at the time. Startlingly, the teachers union refused to allow their members to even vote on the package, saying "We are against it because it divides people."
Michelle Rhee was shouted down in public meetings. Waiting for Superman shows black teachers protesting her proposal with signs that say her ideas are racist. They believe they have a right to these jobs. Michelle Rhee resigned.
>
>WAITING FOR SUPERMAN
>California colleges must accept a third of all high school graduates. 55 percent of them must have taxpayer funded remedial classes because they cannot do college level work.
Bill Gates has to hire foreign workers since he cannot find enough intelligent Americans who can do the work he requires.
Once upon a time parents would pay high mortgages just to live near good schools. Social Engineering called Busing largely put an end to that. Schools got worse.
>HAVE AMERICAN SCHOOLS ALWAYS BEEN PITIFUL?
>America had the best Public Schools in the world, and the brightest children, until the 1970s. Ten Presidents and 100 Nobel Prize Winners graduated from Public Schools in the United States.
Today, our schools are 25th in math, 21st in science, and 23rd overall out of 29 advanced countries. Tellingly, on an international math test American high school students finished last but the test included the question, "How well do you think you performed?" and on that question the American students were first. The "self-esteem" movement has created kids who think they are first when they are last.
What changed in the 1970s? Having attended public schools, and having had three children graduate from public school decades after me, I can tell you the answer to that question. When I went to public schools, the focus was on English, Math, Science, History, Vocational Classes, and Physical Fitness. The focus today is on Multiculturalism, Tolerance, Social Justice, Inclusiveness, and Political Correctness. It is on implanting "right-thoughts" as perceived by Radical Progressives who run the teachers unions> and the schools—not on learning.
Just some more anti-union scab talk from the Hawk. Same old some old. But would you believe this man was raised in a blue collar UAW Union family. Receiving all of those union benefits all of his young life and he turned out to be a scab. Oh course they didn't have mental benefits back then. He sure could have used them :biggrin:
Let us pray :pray: :preach: :pope: for the school teachers, nurses and public workers in Wisconsin. Somebody say Amen! Even the policemen and the firemen are for them. :salute: :flag:
Quote from: The Troll on March 01, 2011, 09:23:05 AM
Just some more anti-union scab talk from the Hawk. Same old some old. But would you believe this man was raised in a blue collar UAW Union family. Receiving all of those union benefits all of his young life and he turned out to be a scab. Oh course they didn't have mental benefits back then. He sure could have used them :biggrin:
Let us pray :pray: :preach: :pope: for the school teachers, nurses and public workers in Wisconsin. Somebody say Amen! Even the policemen and the firemen are for them. :salute: :flag:
Did you even READ ANY of the article Troll?....All you know how to do is slam others. That is why I can care less to discuss issues with you, but all I ask is that you read this opinion piece BEFORE you go on your 2nd grade level rant.
I find it interesting that you would quote an article that relies heavily on the movie "Waiting for Superman", a movie by Davis Guggenheim.
The same guy who made "An Inconvenient Truth."
:biggrin:
Speaking of Michelle Rhee, evidence is popping up that the progress she claimed is very questionable.
"the data show Rhee "lied repeatedly" in an effort to make gains in her class look more impressive than they were. "
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/10/AR2011021007240.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/10/AR2011021007240.html)
Quote from: Olias on March 01, 2011, 11:14:18 AM
I find it interesting that you would quote an article that relies heavily on the movie "Waiting for Superman", a movie by Davis Guggenheim.
The same guy who made "An Inconvenient Truth."
:biggrin:
Then you must have not read this then or you are missing the point completely. The content and statistics of this article are what I find interesting. Yes, I am quite aware of who made the movie.
Why does it not bother anyone that we are getting our asses kicked in Math, Science and general scholastics? Our current teaching tactics SUCK! We cannot get rid of the bad teachers due to the strong hold it's union has. It is time folks, to do something about this.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 11:23:34 AM
Then you must have not read this then or you are missing the point completely. The content and statistics of this article are what I find interesting. Yes, I am quite aware of who made the movie.
Why does it not bother anyone that we are getting our asses kicked in Math, Science and general scholastics? Our current teaching tactics SUCK! We cannot get rid of the bad teachers due to the strong hold it's union has. It is time folks, to do something about this.
I was just yankin' your chain on the movie, Hank. ;)
I read it. And there is no debating that we are lagging in education.
But one thing is missing in all those facts. Where are the parents? Where is the personal responsibility to see that your children get a good education? A good education begins at home.
Quote from: Olias on March 01, 2011, 11:28:17 AM
I was just yankin' your chain on the movie, Hank. ;)
I read it. And there is no debating that we are lagging in education.
But one thing is missing in all those facts. Where are the parents? Where is the personal responsibility to see that your children get a good education? A good education begins at home.
YES, I 100% agree with you on that one Olias. I think we have implored upon a generation where this practice was lost. The fact is, we need to get back to the basics again. I think IF we (as a government) are going to control schools, it needs to be at a local and state level. Vouchers for private schools is one way I think we can turn more control over to parents, to assure a proper education for our kids.
Quote from: Olias on March 01, 2011, 11:28:17 AM
I was just yankin' your chain on the movie, Hank. ;)
I read it. And there is no debating that we are lagging in education.
But one thing is missing in all those facts. Where are the parents? Where is the personal responsibility to see that your children get a good education? A good education begins at home.
Right on Olias, Henry wants to kill the messenger, the teacher. If all you have to work with is crap your going to get a crappy result. Single mothers, drop out parents raising kids, illegal aliens and no money for the schools. Really what do you expect. I know Hawk would say cut taxes. We got to get the lawyers out of the class rooms. Hell, the students have more rights than the teachers. :yes:
What I don't understand is what has happened to America and the younger people like the ones in the 50's. I am for everyone to get good pay and benefits and good working conditions. I don't understand the scabs who want people, even professional people to not be able to bargain for good pay and good working conditions. These people seem to think the only people who is to get anything is them, just like Hawk. Scab to the center of his brain.
Where did I say I was not in favor of Teachers? I have ZERO problems with our Teachers being paid what they are worth. We have WAY too many that are being paid great money and NOT teaching. On the other hand we have great teachers who are not being paid enough. The teachers Union pays by tenure not by their ablitity to perform.
If there is going to be bargaining, then it needs to work both ways. The public sector should be at the mercy of the voters NOT at the mercy of a thug union. A teacher should have a right to opt out of the Union without fear of losing their jobs. A teacher should be able to bargain with a School Corperation, based upon his/her ability to teach.
"A teacher should be able to bargain with a School Corperation, based upon his/her ability to teach."
And just what are the criteria for judging this teacher's ability to teach?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 08:44:59 AM
Here is a well written article that I want to share with you guys. It is just an opinion peice, but I find it very, very interesting.
Waiting for Superman the Movie
By James A Watkins
Waiting for Superman is a documentary about the schools in the United States. The filmmaker is a liberal who felt guilty about sending his child to a private school, since liberals are staunch supporters of public school teachers unions. Truth be told, the majority of liberals who can afford private schools send their children to them, while voicing the greatness of the public school system for everybody else. Our filmmaker decided to investigate the schools because he wasn't sure why he didn't trust the public schools with his own child, or if his wariness of them was well-founded.
The result is Waiting for Superman, an extraordinary experience for the viewer. As a side bar, the first scene shows an elementary teacher asking children for a good example of early environmentalism, caring for the earth. The correct answer, the one that brings praise gushing forth from the teacher, is "the white settlers polluted the land and the Native Americans cleaned up their mess."
In a word: No. Since 1971, public schools have increased their spending per student by more than double—in constant dollars. But the public schools have not only shown no improvement, results have gotten worse. Among 8th graders, only 21 percent are proficient at grade level in math; only 27.5 percent proficient in reading. 2,000 high schools in the nation—8 percent of all of them—are described as nothing more than dropout factories.
The worst schools in the United States? In our nation's capital, of course. Washington, D.C., is also the system with the most minority students and the most progressive city government. Grade point averages in DC drop two whole points between 5th and 7th grade.
THE WORST SCHOOL IN THE COUNTRY
Waiting for Superman highlights one 97 block area served by a Los Angeles High School with the highest dropout rate in the country. In the last 40 years, 20,000 have graduated high school in this area while 40,000 dropped out. Most drop out before the 10th grade.
These kids enter into high school reading at a 2nd grade level on average. Improper English is encouraged: "Let me axe you sumptin';" "I cries when I sees it," "He be shootin' good today." Black teachers see this as thumbing the nose at the white power system in America—a good thing.
The area is full of young people with no education, no diploma, no skills, and no aspirations. School is not considered important.
Then consider that 68 percent of prison inmates are high school dropouts. And it costs society (taxpayers) $33,000 a year to house, guard, and feed them. For that same amount of money—based on an average prison term of four years—each of them could have attended private schools for 13 years (@$8300 per year). Why don't we do that? The teachers unions—and their lackeys, progressive legislators— won't allow it.
A SURE RECIPE FOR MIND CONTROL
ARE ALL TEACHERS EQUAL?
Waiting for Superman claims that a bad teacher can set back a student an entire year. A good teacher will teach 150 percent of the curriculum during a year, but a bad teacher will only get through 50 percent of the curriculum. Students with high performing teachers learn three times as much in a school year but both teachers get paid the same. They get paid equally as a sop to Marxism, the prevailing ideology of the teachers unions.
In 1991, a public school classroom in Milwaukee was secretly videotaped by a student. It shows the kids shooting craps during class, while the teacher reads the newspaper. After this hit the news, the principle decided to fire the teacher. He was soon forced to rehire him by the teachers union, with back pay. The teacher was guaranteed a job for life and could not be fired under the collective bargaining contract. "Collective" was a favorite word of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao.
ALL CITIZENS PAY TO SUPPORT RADICAL LEFTIST POLITICS
THE TEACHERS UNIONS
The teachers unions are the largest political campaign contributors in the United States. They donated 55 million dollars in the last election, over 90 percent of it to candidates of the Democratic Party. In other words, all Americans of all political persuasions pay the teacher salaries, out of which are deducted union dues that only support one political party. It must be great to have your campaigns financed by your political enemies.
It is widely felt that the biggest obstacle to improving schools is the teachers unions. They will not allow schools to distinguish between teachers, except by seniority. Great teachers can in no wise be rewarded. All comrades must be paid the same. Anybody with any sense knows this is a disincentive to hard work.
WHERE DO THE LAZY, CRUMMY TEACHERS GO?
Waiting for Superman reveals something known in the public schools as the "Dance of the Lemons;" also called "Pass the Trash," and "The Turkey Trot." Principals have teachers who are known to everybody to be "lemons" (a defective teacher) but there is no "lemon law" for teachers. Quite the opposite, they can't be fired. All that can be done with them is to pass them on to another school. So, principals trade lemons, "I'll take yours, if you'll take mine."
Some districts put their lousy teachers in "rubber rooms." This means that they sit and do nothing all day while drawing full salary. Even though the taxpayers must pay them, it is better not to have them in a classroom. The process of firing a teacher takes three years, even for gross sexual violations, snorting cocaine in the classroom, sleeping through class, or missing 74 days of work.
TAXPAYERS FOOT THE BILL BUT HAVE NO SAY
Teachers in New York City alone are paid $100,000,000 for doing nothing because they are a danger to students but can't be fired. This is the true purpose of unions: to protect the worst employees. No star employee needs a union in any field. On the contrary, she is feted and fought over by competitors.
One study mentioned shows that if the worst 10 percent of teachers were fired tomorrow, America would have public schools second to none in the world the next day—but teachers unions won't allow it. In Illinois, out of 876 school districts only 61 have ever tried to fire a teacher. 38 were successful.
One out of 57 doctors in America lost their license last year. One out of every 97 lawyers was disbarred last year. Only one out of 2500 teachers lost their jobs. Imagine if every job in America was guaranteed for life and no one could be fired. That is the Marxist dream. Professional baseball hitters could hit .100 year after year and still be guaranteed a spot on the team.
CHARTER SCHOOLS
Waiting for Superman focuses on Charter Schools. Catholic Schools and other Christian Schools are not mentioned—even though they far outperform unionized public schools for half the money—probably because our filmmaker is a liberal Jew.
The Charter Schools featured have had successes that are jaw-dropping. They only have room for so many children and must conduct public lotteries among applicants. Harlem Success Academy had 790 applicants and 42 slots. Many Charter Schools insist on official school uniforms for the children.
The documentary highlights reformers such as Geoffrey Canada, Harlem Parents United, The New Teacher Project, and StudentsFirst.
KIPP LA Schools sends 90 percent of its low-income graduates on to college—over four times the rate of the public schools. There are now 82 KIPP schools; all in bad neighborhoods.
There are also Seed Schools sprouting up that have been amazingly successful by removing the students from their home environment and having them live at the school—a boarding school for disadvantaged children. They allow no television or video games on campus; they hold classes seven days a week.
We know how these non-union schools achieve such incredible success, but the teachers unions say NO!
MICHELLE RHEE
Waiting for Superman investigates the case of Michelle Rhee, former chancellor of the District of Columbia Public Schools. Rhee posits that the 14,000 School Boards in the United States have their hands tied by the teachers unions and a vast bureaucracy.
Michelle Rhee had made clear progress in the Public Schools of Washington, D.C., though she ran up against constant opposition from teachers unions. She sought to purge the schools of incompetent teachers and principals. Previous administrations had hired a huge number of black "teachers" just because they were black. Many did not even have the proper teaching certificates.
The Washington, D.C. schools were spending the 3rd most of any schools in the nation but only 8 percent of 8th graders could do math at grade level. The school district also had twice the national average of classroom space. Rhee closed 24 schools that were under enrolled. She also announced new programs, specifically with more Art and Music.
Michelle Rhee tried to change the way teachers were compensated. She thought the key was to get rid of tenure—a guarantee of a teaching job for life regardless of performance. She offered the teachers union $122,000 per teacher if they would relinquish lifelong tenure. They were making $74,000 at the time. Startlingly, the teachers union refused to allow their members to even vote on the package, saying "We are against it because it divides people."
Michelle Rhee was shouted down in public meetings. Waiting for Superman shows black teachers protesting her proposal with signs that say her ideas are. They believe they have a to these jobs. Michelle Rhee resigned.
WAITING FOR SUPERMAN
California colleges must accept a third of all high school graduates. 55 percent of them must have taxpayer funded remedial classes because they cannot do college level work.
Bill Gates has to hire foreign workers since he cannot find enough intelligent Americans who can do the work he requires.
Once upon a time parents would pay high mortgages just to live near good schools. Social Engineering called Busing largely put an end to that. Schools got worse.
HAVE AMERICAN SCHOOLS ALWAYS BEEN PITIFUL?
America had the best Public Schools in the world, and the brightest children, until the 1970s. Ten Presidents and 100 Nobel Prize Winners graduated from Public Schools in the United States.
Today, our schools are 25th in math, 21st in science, and 23rd overall out of 29 advanced countries. Tellingly, on an international math test American high school students finished last but the test included the question, "How well do you think you performed?" and on that question the American students were first. The "self-esteem" movement has created kids who think they are first when they are last.
What changed in the 1970s? Having attended public schools, and having had three children graduate from public school decades after me, I can tell you the answer to that question. When I went to public schools, the focus was on English, Math, Science, History, Vocational Classes, and Physical Fitness. The focus today is on Multiculturalism, Tolerance, Social Justice, Inclusiveness, and Political Correctness. It is on implanting "right-thoughts" as perceived by Radical Progressives who run the teachers unions and the schools—not on learning.
Quote from: followsthewolf on March 01, 2011, 12:49:07 PM
"A teacher should be able to bargain with a School Corperation, based upon his/her ability to teach."
And just what are the criteria for judging this teacher's ability to teach?
That should be up to the School Board.
Quote from: followsthewolf on March 01, 2011, 12:49:07 PM
"A teacher should be able to bargain with a School Corperation, based upon his/her ability to teach."
And just what are the criteria for judging this teacher's ability to teach?
Look at the students progress over the year. Personally, I think if a kid is having trouble and the parents don't respond to repeated requests by the teacher for a conference they ought to be hauled in by the police, I know, another infringement on our freedom. Maybe we should have truant officers for parents.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 09:31:24 AM
Did you even READ ANY of the article Troll?....All you know how to do is slam others. That is why I can care less to discuss issues with you, but all I ask is that you read this opinion piece BEFORE you go on your 2nd grade level rant.
What do you mean 2ND grade rant. Just where in hell did the article you posted get all of it's facts and figures, out of his ass. Bill Gates has to hire foreign employees to get smart people to for for him. Bull shit! He hires foreign employees some he can get fairly smart people to work for practically nothing. Also figure like only 1 teacher fired out of 2500, just where did he get these. But that's one thing about the internet, a person can say anything about anything and make up figures to prove a false point. Pal, you got one, all bull shit.
The whole damn article was anti-union. I read the stinking thing twice. Just who in hell is James A. Watkins. Talk about second grade information, Henry. Give us a break. :biggrin:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 01:06:19 PM
That should be up to the School Board.
School boards? Some of those political hacks can't find their own ass with both hand at the same time. Give us a break :chick:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 12:31:19 PM
Where did I say I was not in favor of Teachers? I have ZERO problems with our Teachers being paid what they are worth. We have WAY too many that are being paid great money and NOT teaching. On the other hand we have great teachers who are not being paid enough. The teachers Union pays by tenure not by their ablitity to perform.
If there is going to be bargaining, then it needs to work both ways. The public sector should be at the mercy of the voters NOT at the mercy of a thug union. A teacher should have a right to opt out of the Union without fear of losing their jobs. A teacher should be able to bargain with a School Corperation, based upon his/her ability to teach.
Well Henry after reading all of your answers, I see that you know nothing about teachers, teaching or unions. Because you have no experience in any of them. Your are not even 2ND grade. :rotfl: :grin2:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 01:06:19 PM
That should be up to the School Board.
With all due respect, Henry, I've been down that road. I could give you a book full of drunken principals with buddies on the school board who would fire teachers if they didn't bend for sexual favors in the principal's office, school board members who would fire teachers who caught the board members' children cheating on tests and disciplined them for it, etc.
In short, there is NOTHING that can curb administrative excesses if they wish to do so, except a master contract, which is obtained by collective bargaining with the teachers' union.
Like the rise of other unions, the teachers' unions rose because of supervisory cruelty and inherent unfairness. They are the result of years of treating teachers like the children they teach.
I spent a lot of years seeing this happen, and that was only one school district.
Imagine your daughter's (or your son's, for that matter) career depending upon her providing sexual favors for a principal and having no way to stop it. Or, if he or she is so strong that he or she is able to resist the advances, being assigned 10 or 15 more students in the classroom (usually the "problem" students), and then having employment being dependent upon bringing their grade levels up two or three grades in the remaining 4 months of the school year.
Want me to go on?
School boards, in my experience, are very rarely made up of people who have any idea of good educational practices. They usually have an ax to grind, or they believe they can cut the school budget without any effect on the students.
Many teachers I know spent several hundreds of dollars each year providing everything from educational materials to sneakers for the students in their class who could not afford them.
If teachers do not do their jobs, there are methods to eliminate them; however, in my experience they do not because the principal and superintendent do not have the guts, knowledge, or energy to take care of the problem. Realistically, the local teachers' union usually ended up convincing the teacher it was time to move on into another career choice.
Quote from: The Troll on March 01, 2011, 02:05:23 PM
What do you mean 2ND grade rant. Just where in hell did the article you posted get all of it's facts and figures, out of his ass. Bill Gates has to hire foreign employees to get smart people to for for him. Bull shit! He hires foreign employees some he can get fairly smart people to work for practically nothing. Also figure like only 1 teacher fired out of 2500, just where did he get these. But that's one thing about the internet, a person can say anything about anything and make up figures to prove a false point. Pal, you got one, all bull shit.
The whole damn article was anti-union. I read the stinking thing twice. Just who in hell is James A. Watkins. Talk about second grade information, Henry. Give us a break. :biggrin:
I never stated it to be the gospil, I stated it was an opinion piece. I have a lot of personal confidence in the writer. Many of the facts are from a documentary that has been released.
I don't think it is a big secret that we have a real problem with our educational system...it does not take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.
Quote from: The Troll on March 01, 2011, 02:21:14 PM
Well Henry after reading all of your answers, I see that you know nothing about teachers, teaching or unions. Because you have no experience in any of them. Your are not even 2ND grade. :rotfl: :grin2:
How do I even begin to debate this mentality?.... :rolleyes:
Quote from: followsthewolf on March 01, 2011, 02:59:34 PM
With all due respect, Henry, I've been down that road. I could give you a book full of drunken principals with buddies on the school board who would fire teachers if they didn't bend for sexual favors in the principal's office, school board members who would fire teachers who caught the board members' children cheating on tests and disciplined them for it, etc.
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And I could give you a book of excellent principals and board members who would NOT put up with such behavior....
Quote from: followsthewolf on March 01, 2011, 02:59:34 PM
In short, there is NOTHING that can curb administrative excesses if they wish to do so, except a master contract, which is obtained by collective bargaining with the teachers' union.Quote
With all due respect, I think that is BS. With that said, I am not particulary saying that the Union should go away, I say it needs overhauled. Why not set it up like the electrical union? If a teacher is not cutting the mustard, then send them back to the hall and get another one off of the books. I'm open to ideas, but the NEA as it is...SUCKS.
Quote from: followsthewolf on March 01, 2011, 02:59:34 PM
I spent a lot of years seeing this happen, and that was only one school district.Quote
I have been part of a great school district in Madison County, the ones my kids have attended. So, there is corruption that hits everywhere, but like you stated earlier, what ever happened to the parents responsiblity?
Quote from: followsthewolf on March 01, 2011, 02:59:34 PM
Imagine your daughter's (or your son's, for that matter) career depending upon her providing sexual favors for a principal and having no way to stop it. Or, if he or she is so strong that he or she is able to resist the advances, being assigned 10 or 15 more students in the classroom (usually the "problem" students), and then having employment being dependent upon bringing their grade levels up two or three grades in the remaining 4 months of the school year.
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That can happen to anybody's job....and you would handle it like you are supposed to do....file a law suit and fight it.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 01:06:19 PM
That should be up to the School Board.
That reminds me of a famous quote ....
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board.
Mark Twain
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 03:49:53 PM
How do I even begin to debate this mentality?.... :rolleyes:
You don't.
Quote from: Olias on March 01, 2011, 04:25:38 PM
That reminds me of a famous quote ....
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board.
Mark Twain
Absolutely.
And if the union exists, Henry, those excesses are far less likely to occur.
The union backing gives teachers a way to hire a lawyer to fight.
And, usually, those who rant about the power of a teachers' union are simply jealous that there is no group for them to join, so they decry those who have decided to band together to help each other.
Quote from: followsthewolf on March 01, 2011, 02:59:34 PM
With all due respect, Henry, I've been down that road. I could give you a book full of drunken principals with buddies on the school board who would fire teachers if they didn't bend for sexual favors in the principal's office, school board members who would fire teachers who caught the board members' children cheating on tests and disciplined them for it, etc.
In short, there is NOTHING that can curb administrative excesses if they wish to do so, except a master contract, which is obtained by collective bargaining with the teachers' union.
Like the rise of other unions, the teachers' unions rose because of supervisory cruelty and inherent unfairness. They are the result of years of treating teachers like the children they teach.
I spent a lot of years seeing this happen, and that was only one school district.
Imagine your daughter's (or your son's, for that matter) career depending upon her providing sexual favors for a principal and having no way to stop it. Or, if he or she is so strong that he or she is able to resist the advances, being assigned 10 or 15 more students in the classroom (usually the "problem" students), and then having employment being dependent upon bringing their grade levels up two or three grades in the remaining 4 months of the school year.
Want me to go on?
School boards, in my experience, are very rarely made up of people who have any idea of good educational practices. They usually have an ax to grind, or they believe they can cut the school budget without any effect on the students.
Many teachers I know spent several hundreds of dollars each year providing everything from educational materials to sneakers for the students in their class who could not afford them.
If teachers do not do their jobs, there are methods to eliminate them; however, in my experience they do not because the principal and superintendent do not have the guts, knowledge, or energy to take care of the problem. Realistically, the local teachers' union usually ended up convincing the teacher it was time to move on into another career choice.
Good piece of information. Plain simple and straight to the heart true. Even Henry should be able to understand it. :thumbsup. I really liked. :salute:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 01, 2011, 03:49:53 PM
How do I even begin to debate this mentality?.... :rolleyes:
Because you can't. You are a member of the 33% of the wacko religious, scabby, right-wing nuts in this country. What's why. There is really nothing more to say about you Henry. :wacko: :preach: Cause where you work all you get when you retire is a T-shirt and a crummy 401K. :yes:
Quote from: The Troll on March 01, 2011, 11:22:44 PM
Because you can't. You are a member of the 33% of the wacko religious, scabby, right-wing nuts in this country. What's why. There is really nothing more to say about you Henry. :wacko: :preach: Cause where you work all you get when you retire is a T-shirt and a crummy 401K. :yes:
Do you just talk for the fun of it?....................where did you come up with the "33%"?.....What do you know about MY work place and MY retirement?......you are wrong on both counts by the way.
Just food for thought, I am a member of the party that...WON....the election by the majority of the population.....just so you know. ;)
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 02, 2011, 09:38:58 AM
Do you just talk for the fun of it?....................where did you come up with the "33%"?.....What do you know about MY work place and MY retirement?......you are wrong on both counts by the way.
Just food for thought, I am a member of the party that...WON....the election by the majority of the population.....just so you know. ;)
It's not that you won, it's how you won. Lies and Lies Teabagger lies. About your work place, do you have bargaining powers, and the same benefits that union workers have. I bet you don't. Because if you did you wouldn't be so anti-union.
On the 33%, I can see you don't watch the polls very close. You need to watch them. Just for example, question: are you for teacher to have bargaining power? 33% say No. Question: is Obama a Christian? 33% say No. Question: is Obama an American citizen? 33% says NO. Question: Should American people have single payer health plan. 33% says No. The the Far Right Christians voters who have drank the Kool-Aid :koolaid: of the Republican Party and Fox News. That's where the 33% comes from. :biggrin: :yes: Hard core Republican Nuts. :yes:
Quote from: The Troll on March 02, 2011, 12:27:54 PM
It's not that you won, it's how you won. Lies and Lies Teabagger lies. About your work place, do you have bargaining powers, and the same benefits that union workers have. I bet you don't. Because if you did you wouldn't be so anti-union.
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If I had the same benefits that they union workers have, I would NOT have my job, because we could not compete in the market to WIN jobs. The very reason why MOST UAW folks no-longer have jobs. WHY oh WHY is that so hard for you to understand?
I am so very happy where I am....I know for a fact, I am making MORE than a UAW factory worker...I do not have as GREAT of insurance or do I get 8-weeks of vaction time, but I do get three weeks, and my insurance is decent. I have a retirement plan.
AND, Troll....I am not completely ANTI-Union.......I just think that some of them, got too powerful and too greedy and they ruined a good thing that this Country ONCE had.
I think the NEA is NOT a good Union........and removing some of their corrupt power is needed to do what is best for our kids...
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 02, 2011, 12:46:03 PM
If I had the same benefits that they union workers have, I would NOT have my job, because we could not compete in the market to WIN jobs. The very reason why MOST UAW folks no-longer have jobs. WHY oh WHY is that so hard for you to understand?
I am so very happy where I am....I know for a fact, I am making MORE than a UAW factory worker...I do not have as GREAT of insurance or do I get 8-weeks of vaction time, but I do get three weeks, and my insurance is decent. I have a retirement plan.
AND, Troll....I am not completely ANTI-Union.......I just think that some of them, got too powerful and too greedy and they ruined a good thing that this Country ONCE had.
I think the NEA is NOT a good Union........and removing some of their corrupt power is needed to do what is best for our kids...
Let's face it, you should make more money than the average auto worker. Your spent a lot of time and energy getting an education in the field you work. Just like the 4 years of apprenticeship I did. I glad for you, it sure make the job better when you have a good boss. I have sure worked for some real assholes.
I just call an automatic washer repair place have work done on my washing machine. As I am injured and can't do it myself. They are charging $139 just to show up, plus parts and simple labor. Shall I hang onto my ass and billfold? :biggrin: I sounds like I got out of business to soon. :biggrin: