The title of this topic is the title of an HBO documentary that I just watched.
Anyone with a family member, or friend, that has been active military and either gone to an active theatre of operations during a conflict, or is presently there for the first time, or could potentially be deployed to the current theatre of operations, needs to watch this.
There is a lot of information to be gathered in watching this film. First and foremost on your list to achieve in viewing it, should be to carefully listen to the men and women from past, as well as present , relate their personal experiences during the operations they participated in. It can help you understand why so many that have participated in war unofficially adhere to a code of silence, and just why it is that so many of them end up in social conflict in their personal lives as well as public lives.
The film contains some very graphic photographs and video clips from these wars, and they are utilized to demonstrate the horrors these men and women have endured or are enduring. From the civil war to Iraq, this film relates the stories of the men and women who have been there, endured the horrors, and seen first hand the worst humanity is capable of. And in some cases become the purveyors of the worst of humanity's capabilities. In a couple of instances you will see the actual footage or stills from the events they are speaking about.
Some wil find these pictures, stories, and videos disturbing and indeed, very hard to look at, but if you love someone that is or has gone through this, you will find it helpful in understanding them when they come back an individual they were not before they left.
If you have HBO then you will be able to watch it anytime at some point, via your cable providers on demand feature. I strongly suggest that you do NOT view this while young children are in the home and awake.
I do not have HBO, but I would like to see this. My oldest son will more than likely be on his way over to the middle east over the coarse of the next 12 to 18 months. Fortunately he will graduate Ball State this spring, and he is very much willing to serve over seas if/and when that assignment calls for him. I don't think it will be a film my wife would want to watch, she is not handling this whole ideas very well. My son has good friends who have already been there, who have not handled their return very well. He is quite aware of this situation, as they discuss these issues monthly with his platoon.
And to think these are Republican Party wars with George W. as Commander in Chief. One war he didn't need to start and the first one he should have stayed in and won.
I hope your son's education keeps him off the front line. That job is left up to the poor uneducated suckers.
Troll posted:
"I hope your son's education keeps him off the front line. That job is left up to the poor uneducated suckers."
That might be true now, but it wasn't when I was in. Lots of "educated" as well as "uneducated" blood got spilled.
'Way too much.
My son joined because he had a desire to server his country. He graduates in the spring, and is willing to serve anytime after. That job, Troll, that you speak of, is left up to those who love this country, educated or not.
My generation's war didn't kill me, but it did get my brother.
We were both very patriotic.
Hank, if your son wants to serve his country, he goes with my fervent hope that he stays whole, both physically and mentally.
I wish him the best of luck.
Quote from: followsthewolf on December 08, 2010, 12:36:32 PM
My generation's war didn't kill me, but it did get my brother.
We were both very patriotic.
Hank, if your son wants to serve his country, he goes with my fervent hope that he stays whole, both physically and mentally.
I wish him the best of luck.
Thanks FTW, I have tried to discuss his alternatives, and he is pretty insistant, that he does his tour as many of his buddies already have. His girlfriend still has another year of college, and he thinks this would be a good way to wrap it up, before he ties the knot.
He is a great young man, and I am very proud of him.
Quote from: followsthewolf on December 08, 2010, 10:08:23 AM
Troll posted:
"I hope your son's education keeps him off the front line. That job is left up to the poor uneducated suckers."
That might be true now, but it wasn't when I was in. Lots of "educated" as well as "uneducated" blood got spilled.
'Way too much.
Mr. Wolf it sounds like you were drafted and didn't have a choice it where you went or what you did. Maybe it was Korea or Nam. Either one was hell. Nam was a worthless war. Just like the two we are in now. Korea was a draw and the last three of these wars we're going to lose. You can't fix stupid.
Education does make a differance in what job you get in the Armed Forces. I know a young man who went to college to be a CPA, when he got out he joined the Air Force and now is stationed in Washington at the Pentagon. He sure isn't going to be on the front line.
Neither my brother nor I were drafted.
My brother was one of those "uneducated" people, as you call them. I just called him my brother. His education level was not a factor.
I am one of those educated people you are so fond of berating, but my job was not to push paper.
I pushed fmj's.
Yes, education can and does make a difference. That's not the issue.
Both educated and uneducated soldiers die in a war. Neither is more important than the other.
Quote from: followsthewolf on December 08, 2010, 12:36:32 PM
My generation's war didn't kill me, but it did get my brother.
We were both very patriotic.
Hank, if your son wants to serve his country, he goes with my fervent hope that he stays whole, both physically and mentally.
I wish him the best of luck.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 08, 2010, 12:41:04 PM
Thanks FTW, I have tried to discuss his alternatives, and he is pretty insistant, that he does his tour as many of his buddies already have. His girlfriend still has another year of college, and he thinks this would be a good way to wrap it up, before he ties the knot.
He is a great young man, and I am very proud of him.
I echo FTW's sentiments above. We were lucky in that our son seems to have made it through intact to this point. Well, except for the sleeping thing anyway. . . And I can relate to that. . . Many others were not so lucky. . . and some are yet to be identified.
I can also relate to your feelngs as a parent as well Hank. And your wifes anxiety. I've experienced both, and continue to live with the fact that my son may be redeployed at any given time. . . At the same time I am VERY proud of my son and his accomplishments and patriotism; and I back him 110% on his chosen path. The important thing to me is that he knows that, and I do believe he does. We've spoken abou tit at length a few times; both while he was deployed and since his return.
Quote from: followsthewolf on December 08, 2010, 02:40:01 PM
. . .
Yes, education can and does make a difference. That's not the issue.
Both educated and uneducated soldiers die in a war. Neither is more important than the other.
:yes: 8) :yes: I could not agree more!
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 08, 2010, 10:53:41 AM
My son joined because he had a desire to server his country. He graduates in the spring, and is willing to serve anytime after. That job, Troll, that you speak of, is left up to those who love this country, educated or not.
I know one thing if he was my son I might go for him to go into the Navy or the Air Force. I sure would raise hell if he said anything about going in the Army or the Marines.
I sure wouldn't want my son to be the last one killed or worse made a vegetable in a war we can not win and the war that George W. started. NOT MY SON, THAT'S FOR DAMN SURE.
I never meet a service person who went into the service to serve their country. Not in this day and age. Now it's getting a job. I guess bad job is better than not having one or starving.
My son and cousin's son both joined the military because they wanted to serve. They both had college educations and good jobs.
Quote from: Anne on December 08, 2010, 11:15:53 PM
My son and cousin's son both joined the military because they wanted to serve. They both had college educations and good jobs.
College educated and good jobs. Brain dead. But I do hope it won't get them killed or maimed. Well I guess that what a good Republican mother does. Raise her boys to go into the service and into a unwindable war. :wacko: If we had a draft these wars would have been over years ago. Rich kids won't go they let someone else fight the wars.
Maybe they have pride in their country and are glad they can enjoy the benefits of living in this country.
I think most people see a college education as desirable and an achievement to be proud of and a desire to serve your country as honorable, also a reason to be proud.
Quote from: The Troll on December 08, 2010, 11:26:15 PM
College educated and good jobs. Brain dead. But I do hope it won't get them killed or maimed. Well I guess that what a good Republican mother does. Raise her boys to go into the service and into a unwindable war. :wacko: If we had a draft these wars would have been over years ago. Rich kids won't go they let someone else fight the wars.
That again, is another "unclassy" remark............do you ever think before you speak? Every thing you said was/is offensive, and just plain ignorant.
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on December 09, 2010, 03:30:34 AM
I think most people see a college education as desirable and an achievement to be proud of and a desire to serve your country as honorable, also a reason to be proud.
Sandy, I know for me persoanlly, I am so very proud of the Man my son turned out to be. He is going to graduate college, and has a desire to serve his country. He has met a fantastic young lady who also is going to graduate in another year. He is a great son and an excellent brother to his younger brothers and sisters.
The fact is this current initiative is being prosecuted with an entirely volunteer military. While I am sure there are numerous reasons for each service member's personal decision to serve, the fact remains that their choice ensures our freedoms and helps secure them for others around the world. And I am 100% sure that each one of them weighed this within their decision process.
My own son listed a desire to help others and serve our country amongst his list of reasons for joining when he did. Despite my very strong warning to him surrounding the volatility of the middle east, and the very high likelihood of his being deployed there, his personal decision to proceed was his own. And I admire his decision and respect it 100%. (he also listed education amongst his pluses for doing so).
My son was subjected to stop loss extensions 2 times while in Iraq, he spent his recovery period after being stricken in the field, being medi-vaced to Germany, and having surgery, in a tent in the desert of Kuwait with 100+ degree temperatures. And he continues to serve to this very day. . .
I can definitely relate to the impacts the families of these men and women, as well as those of the men and women themselves, relate within the context of this documentary. Receiving a satellite call in the middle of the night from your child, telling you they are being airlifted from the field of operations for emergency surgery, and then having the line go dead before you can find out what happened and what his condition is, is NOT something I would want any other family to endure. Yet my ex wife got that call, and she burned the lines up to get hold of me and tell me right away, begging me to do whatever I could to find out what happened. The ensuing 24 hours it took for me to get hold of the Red Cross, and receive a phone call myself, in the middle of the night, from his surgeon who came straight out of operating on my son to call me personally and tell me his condition, seemed like a year.
The anxiety of watching the nightly news and hearing of the casualties, the dread of seeing a military vehicle in your neighborhood and hoping they are not coming to your house. The months of hearing nothing from your child because they did not have the communications infrastructure to allow for e-mail and phone calls during the first 6 months of the operations in Iraq, and the anxiety that drives.
All of this and a lot more are things our own family endures because my son made a personal decision to serve our country and we each respect and back that decision 100% because we know how important it is to our country, and my son.
Military families and their children deserve our understanding and respect, and if you sincerely want to understand just what it is they are going through, you should watch this documentary too.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 09, 2010, 08:42:53 AM
That again, is another "unclassy" remark............do you ever think before you speak? Every thing you said was/is offensive, and just plain ignorant.
Your the ignorant DUMBASSS you can't see the truth if it kicked you in the ass. If you going to kill your kid, at least do it for a good reason. :wacko:
You can call it unclassy remark. But it is true, why on earth would a young man with everything going for him want to go in to the armed forces and take a chance to get killed or some thing blown off and crippled for life. It sure don't make sense, uncouth as I may be.
If it was a war that was for this country instead of the rich war makers. A war George W. started, who in hell would want their son sacrificed to an unwindable war. I sure wouldn't want my son to be the LAST ONE KILLED in George W. and the Republicans Party stupid and ignorant war. My God are you stupid and ignorant. Just one big dumbass. :yes: :yes:
Quote from: The Troll on December 09, 2010, 09:09:09 AM
Your the ignorant DUMBASSS you can't see the truth if it kicked you in the ass. If you going to kill your kid, at least do it for a good reason. :wacko:
You can call it unclassy remark. But it is true, why on earth would a young man with everything going for him want to go in to the armed forces and take a chance to get killed or some thing blown off and crippled for life. It sure don't make sense, uncouth as I may be.
If it was a war that was for this country instead of the rich war makers. A war George W. started, who in hell would want their son sacrificed to an unwindable war. I sure wouldn't want my son to be the LAST ONE KILLED in George W. and the Republicans Party stupid and ignorant war. My God are you stupid and ignorant. Just one big dumbass. :yes: :yes:
thank God, our Military is not a do what you want service, that is not the way it works. If our men and women could pick and choose what is worthy to them or not as to what war to fight, we would have been defeated years ago. I our young men and women join, and take an oath to defend our Nation. Please don't tarnish the service that these kids has served. Saying things like who would want to sacrifice their son for anything shows the warped mentality that you have. You just don't get it.
PH, I also think most Americans do not understand the pressures that parents undergo with their kids at war. I was hoping not to have to endure this, but I'm pretty sure it is going to happen. My son was one who always was wanting to help others. Always wanted to get the bad guys. He was alway concerned with his siblings safety.
Quote from: Palehorse on December 09, 2010, 08:59:14 AM
The fact is this current initiative is being prosecuted with an entirely volunteer military. While I am sure there are numerous reasons for each service member's personal decision to serve, the fact remains that their choice ensures our freedoms and helps secure them for others around the world. And I am 100% sure that each one of them weighed this within their decision process.
My own son listed a desire to help others and serve our country amongst his list of reasons for joining when he did. Despite my very strong warning to him surrounding the volatility of the middle east, and the very high likelihood of his being deployed there, his personal decision to proceed was his own. And I admire his decision and respect it 100%. (he also listed education amongst his pluses for doing so).
My son was subjected to stop loss extensions 2 times while in Iraq, he spent his recovery period after being stricken in the field, being medi-vaced to Germany, and having surgery, in a tent in the desert of Kuwait with 100+ degree temperatures. And he continues to serve to this very day. . .
I can definitely relate to the impacts the families of these men and women, as well as those of the men and women themselves, relate within the context of this documentary. Receiving a satellite call in the middle of the night from your child, telling you they are being airlifted from the field of operations for emergency surgery, and then having the line go dead before you can find out what happened and what his condition is, is NOT something I would want any other family to endure. Yet my ex wife got that call, and she burned the lines up to get hold of me and tell me right away, begging me to do whatever I could to find out what happened. The ensuing 24 hours it took for me to get hold of the Red Cross, and receive a phone call myself, in the middle of the night, from his surgeon who came straight out of operating on my son to call me personally and tell me his condition, seemed like a year.
The anxiety of watching the nightly news and hearing of the casualties, the dread of seeing a military vehicle in your neighborhood and hoping they are not coming to your house. The months of hearing nothing from your child because they did not have the communications infrastructure to allow for e-mail and phone calls during the first 6 months of the operations in Iraq, and the anxiety that drives.
All of this and a lot more are things our own family endures because my son made a personal decision to serve our country and we each respect and back that decision 100% because we know how important it is to our country, and my son.
Military families and their children deserve our understanding and respect, and if you sincerely want to understand just what it is they are going through, you should watch this documentary too.
I'm glad your son is ok, he sounds like a fine young man.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 09, 2010, 08:46:13 AM
Sandy, I know for me persoanlly, I am so very proud of the Man my son turned out to be. He is going to graduate college, and has a desire to serve his country. He has met a fantastic young lady who also is going to graduate in another year. He is a great son and an excellent brother to his younger brothers and sisters.
Thank you son for his service for me.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 09, 2010, 09:25:33 AM
thank God, our Military is not a do what you want service, that is not the way it works. If our men and women could pick and choose what is worthy to them or not as to what war to fight, we would have been defeated years ago. I our young men and women join, and take an oath to defend our Nation. Please don't tarnish the service that these kids has served. Saying things like who would want to sacrifice their son for anything shows the warped mentality that you have. You just don't get it.
PH, I also think most Americans do not understand the pressures that parents undergo with their kids at war. I was hoping not to have to endure this, but I'm pretty sure it is going to happen. My son was one who always was wanting to help others. Always wanted to get the bad guys. He was alway concerned with his siblings safety.
Well there is one thing about it CHICKEN HAWK, you never serve a day in the service and never will. If you want to pat the boys you send into George W. wars and you can wave all of your patriotic flags you want. But Chicken Hawks are good at sending someone else into a UNWINDABLE WAR. Get them killed and maimed. All I can say to you is :kissit:.
I do not want one more of our people killed or hurt in these damn wars. 90% of the Afghan troops can't read the serial number on their rifles. 90% can't read or write. 100% hate us Americans and you want our people to fight for these raghead son of bitches. You are truly a dumbass.
Quote from: The Troll on December 09, 2010, 02:58:58 PM
Well there is one thing about it CHICKEN HAWK, you never serve a day in the service and never will. If you want to pat the boys you send into George W. wars and you can wave all of your patriotic flags you want. But Chicken Hawks are good at sending someone else into a UNWINDABLE WAR. Get them killed and maimed. All I can say to you is :kissit: .
I do not want one more of our people killed or hurt in these damn wars. 90% of the Afghan troops can't read the serial number on their rifles. 90% can't read or write. 100% hate us Americans and you want our people to fight for these raghead son of bitches. You are truly a dumbass.
who said I wanted to fight them........btw, it wasy passed 420 Ayes, 1 Nay and 10 Not Voting in the House and 98 Ayes, 0 Nays in the Senate.....it was not a George W. War....it is now a Obama war and we are STILL there.
And I will wave my flag anytime we have one of our men and women fighting for us.....
what exactly IS an UNWINDABLE WAR?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 09, 2010, 03:06:23 PM
who said I wanted to fight them........btw, it wasy passed 420 Ayes, 1 Nay and 10 Not Voting in the House and 98 Ayes, 0 Nays in the Senate.....it was not a George W. War....it is now a Obama war and we are STILL there.
And I will wave my flag anytime we have one of our men and women fighting for us.....
what exactly IS an UNWINDABLE WAR?
We can't change the lives or thinking of a country full of dumbass Muslims. They have been fighting against every invader for hundreds of years and when they don't have invaders, they fight among themselves. Any group of men who treat their woman worse than they treat their animals aren't worth saving.
Just like one Special Service solider said when he was asked what the thought of the Afghanistan people. He said, "Hell they're all terrorist. All the men are terrorist and all the boys grow up to be terrorist and the girls and woman are giving birth to terrorist." I would like to kill them all. How that's an unwindable war.
I just love you bullshitting Republicans. "NOW IT'S OBAMA'S WAR" Now that's bullshit.
As far a waving the flag for our people already over there fighting. I'll wave a flag for them too and I will support them and pay my taxes to support they over there. Your George W. Bush and your Republican Party put them there. And I want them brought home in one piece. NOW!
Quote from: The Troll on December 09, 2010, 07:33:50 PM
We can't change the lives or thinking of a country full of dumbass Muslims. They have been fighting against every invader for hundreds of years and when they don't have invaders, they fight among themselves. Any group of men who treat their woman worse than they treat their animals aren't worth saving.
Just like one Special Service solider said when he was asked what the thought of the Afghanistan people. He said, "Hell they're all terrorist. All the men are terrorist and all the boys grow up to be terrorist and the girls and woman are giving birth to terrorist." I would like to kill them all. How that's an unwindable war.
I just love you bullshitting Republicans. "NOW IT'S OBAMA'S WAR" Now that's bullshit.
As far a waving the flag for our people already over there fighting. I'll wave a flag for them too and I will support them and pay my taxes to support they over there. Your George W. Bush and your Republican Party put them there. And I want them brought home in one piece. NOW!
In my post about this one. Can anyone find fault with what I just said. I would like to hear it.
Quote from: The Troll on December 11, 2010, 11:56:47 AM
In my post about this one. Can anyone find fault with what I just said. I would like to hear it.
"But Obama's thoughts on the war in Iraq did not begin and end with that one speech in October 2002. In fact, an examination of both his statements and his Senate votes over the intervening years demonstrates something very different from the consistency that he and his supporters have claimed for him. It demonstrates instead a record of problematically ad-hoc judgments at best, calculatingly cynical judgments at worst. Even if, for the sake of argument, one were to stipulate that Barack Obama was right in 2002, what does this subsequent record say about his fitness to serve?
_____________
Almost as soon as the war began in March 2003, Obama had second thoughts about his opposition to it. "
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/obama-s-war-11263
Quote from: Doc on December 12, 2010, 09:21:12 AM
"But Obama's thoughts on the war in Iraq did not begin and end with that one speech in October 2002. In fact, an examination of both his statements and his Senate votes over the intervening years demonstrates something very different from the consistency that he and his supporters have claimed for him. It demonstrates instead a record of problematically ad-hoc judgments at best, calculatingly cynical judgments at worst. Even if, for the sake of argument, one were to stipulate that Barack Obama was right in 2002, what does this subsequent record say about his fitness to serve?
_____________
Almost as soon as the war began in March 2003, Obama had second thoughts about his opposition to it. "
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/obama-s-war-11263
Your just a racist Republican Obama hater. No matter what he would do you would find fault. I have read your past posts and everyone of them where there is Obama you have slammed him. It tickles me how you can't say our president, or Mr. Obama you have to say his whole name like Barack Obama, like it's something Muslim or worse. I wouldn't believe anything that came out of you lying mouth, even if it was notarized.
What get me about you hardass far right Christians Republicans, it's about your own desires and helping the rich get richer. Man, you guys are really sick. :puke:
Doesn't it make you laugh how DOC comes in with his great poison pen and try to sound really smart. Only to come out a really stupid dumbass. Plus he won't say around and debate his stupid reasonings. :rotfl: :rotfl: :genius:
Doc is a croc !
Troll, Afghanistan it is his war, 100%. It is his decision to leave them there to fight or bring them home. The dems and repubs alike, VOTED, YEA, to take military action......it was not just Bush's war, and especially not now.
Either FIGHT, with full force or BRING THEM HOME, is my short answer....and I would support Obama on either or. Preferably to bring them home.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 13, 2010, 09:44:05 AM
Troll, Afghanistan it is his war, 100%. It is his decision to leave them there to fight or bring them home. The dems and repubs alike, VOTED, YEA, to take military action......it was not just Bush's war, and especially not now.
Either FIGHT, with full force or BRING THEM HOME, is my short answer....and I would support Obama on either or. Preferably to bring them home.
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: That's bullshit and you know it. What a hard head. :wall:
Quote from: The Troll on December 13, 2010, 09:49:22 AM
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: That's bullshit and you know it. What a hard head. :wall:
no it is not bs, Troll. Nothing is stopping him to pull those guys out. If it was wrong to fight then, it is wrong to fight now. I think we made our point when we bombarded what we knew was terrorist sites and training grounds......We should have pulled out, when finding Osama became apparent we was not going to find him there....I'm talking about Afghanistan only here.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 13, 2010, 10:01:00 AM
no it is not bs, Troll. Nothing is stopping him to pull those guys out. If it was wrong to fight then, it is wrong to fight now. I think we made our point when we bombarded what we knew was terrorist sites and training grounds......We should have pulled out, when finding Osama became apparent we was not going to find him there....I'm talking about Afghanistan only here.
All of your Republican buddies in Washington want us there. Hell you should be happy this in one thing you got Obama wrapped around their finger. Keep fighting and keep buying the corporations war goods and make the rich, richer. Right Champ?
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 13, 2010, 10:01:00 AM
no it is not bs, Troll. Nothing is stopping him to pull those guys out. If it was wrong to fight then, it is wrong to fight now. I think we made our point when we bombarded what we knew was terrorist sites and training grounds......We should have pulled out, when finding Osama became apparent we was not going to find him there....I'm talking about Afghanistan only here.
Nah.
You're just using the war in Afghanistan to crap on the POTUS one more time.
Quote from: followsthewolf on December 13, 2010, 10:12:12 AM
Nah.
You're just using the war in Afghanistan to crap on the POTUS one more time.
I'm not crapping on him........I just say either fight full force or pull out. Let's do it, with all of our might or come home. Either one, he has my support. Just occupying our time and lives there half-assed is what I am against.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 13, 2010, 10:15:44 AM
I'm not crapping on him........I just say either fight full force or pull out. Let's do it, with all of our might or come home. Either one, he has my support. Just occupying our time and lives there half-assed is what I am against.
I just wish we handled this war like we did in WWII. You bomb them flat and destroy everything they have to fight a war and you kill everyone who resists. If we flattened all of those villiages that harbor the Taliban it sure would help to end this war.
The only way we can win this war is to kill all of these religious rag heads.