This is an excellent article that supports my position on health care.....
Is Health Care a Right?
by Walter E. Williams
Most politicians, and probably most Americans, see health care as a right. Thus, whether a person has the means to pay for medical services or not, he is nonetheless entitled to them. Let's ask ourselves a few questions about this vision.
Say a person, let's call him Harry, suffers from diabetes and he has no means to pay a laboratory for blood work, a doctor for treatment and a pharmacy for medication. Does Harry have a right to XYZ lab's and Dr. Jones' services and a prescription from a pharmacist? And, if those services are not provided without charge, should Harry be able to call for criminal sanctions against those persons for violating his rights to health care?
You say, "Williams, that would come very close to slavery if one person had the right to force someone to serve him without pay." You're right. Suppose instead of Harry being able to force a lab, doctor and pharmacy to provide services without pay, Congress uses its taxing power to take a couple of hundred dollars out of the paycheck of some American to give to Harry so that he could pay the lab, doctor and pharmacist. Would there be any difference in principle, namely forcibly using one person to serve the purposes of another? There would be one important strategic difference, that of concealment. Most Americans, I would hope, would be offended by the notion of directly and visibly forcing one person to serve the purposes of another. Congress' use of the tax system to invisibly accomplish the same end is more palatable to the average American.
True rights, such as those in our Constitution, or those considered to be natural or human rights, exist simultaneously among people. That means exercise of a right by one person does not diminish those held by another. In other words, my rights to speech or travel impose no obligations on another except those of non-interference. If we apply ideas behind rights to health care to my rights to speech or travel, my free speech rights would require government-imposed obligations on others to provide me with an auditorium, television studio or radio station. My right to travel freely would require government-imposed obligations on others to provide me with airfare and hotel accommodations.
For Congress to guarantee a right to health care, or any other good or service, whether a person can afford it or not, it must diminish someone else's rights, namely their rights to their earnings. The reason is that Congress has no resources of its very own. Moreover, there is no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy giving them those resources. The fact that government has no resources of its very own forces one to recognize that in order for government to give one American citizen a dollar, it must first, through intimidation, threats and coercion, confiscate that dollar from some other American. If one person has a right to something he did not earn, of necessity it requires that another person not have a right to something that he did earn.
To argue that people have a right that imposes obligations on another is an absurd concept. A better term for new-fangled rights to health care, decent housing and food is wishes. If we called them wishes, I would be in agreement with most other Americans for I, too, wish that everyone had adequate health care, decent housing and nutritious meals. However, if we called them human wishes, instead of human rights, there would be confusion and cognitive dissonance. The average American would cringe at the thought of government punishing one person because he refused to be pressed into making someone else's wish come true.
None of my argument is to argue against charity. Reaching into one's own pockets to assist his fellow man in need is praiseworthy and laudable. Reaching into someone else's pockets to do so is despicable and deserves condemnation.
He seems to have pretty much hit the nail on the head with that article.
All three of you are missing the pointm
I am NOT missing the pointm..... :no:
I'm not missing the pointm or the point..... :no:
Quote from: Sandy Eggo on March 10, 2010, 04:24:04 PM
All three of you are missing the pointm
The Hippocratic oath taken by every physician:
Quote
The Hippocratic Oath (Modern Version)
"I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath)
Nowhere in there do I see any mention of a prerequisite requiring payment, yet that is exactly what every physician expects - for right or wrong - and the reality in society today is that unless disease is proactively treated it is destined to spread; to those with health coverage as well as those without it. And physicians expect to be compensated for their services.
The philanthropic side of humanity and the profession of medicine demands that all required care be made available to all who need it, without regard to their ability to compensate those administering the services / aid.
Each year this country spends
billions in the form of medical and medicinal aid to those peoples who inhabit third world and war torn countries; yet a study covering the years 2008 - 2009 indicated that
86.7 million American citizens do not have health care coverage and cannot afford the care necessary to treat their conditions.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/04/uninsured.epidemic.obama/ (http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/04/uninsured.epidemic.obama/)
Denying these individuals access to proper healthcare flies in the face of historical Christian teaching, not to mention it is tantamount to turning your back to hundreds of thousands of dying fellow Americans each and every year.
Reform is about realignment of values as a means toward adjusting them to present day society's perspectives. So I guess what the opposition is saying here is that the "me" decade has now changed to the "I got mine and screw you" decade?!
"As you do to the least of them, so you do unto me" are just words in a book of fiction after all, and not the real "word of God"!
Quote from: me on March 10, 2010, 04:13:30 PM
He seems to have pretty much hit the nail on the head with that article.
(http://fdcalerts.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452f00669e20120a7268e74970b-320wi)
Not only do they think it is a right, Biden ALSO thinks 'This is a Big F*#cking Deal' ...he even says so with an open mic... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQeNikp1Rj8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQeNikp1Rj8)
If the function of government is not to provide for the well being of the citizens, what is it?
Quote from: Exterminator on March 23, 2010, 01:41:37 PM
If the function of government is not to provide for the well being of the citizens, what is it?
Where in the hell did you come up with that idea anyway?
:smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:
:smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smile: :biggrin: :) ;D 8) 8)
HEALTHCARE BILL SIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paraphase. Dr Seuss.
President Obama meant what he said and he said what he meant , Democrat President 100%.
The Troll. :) ;D :biggrin: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 23, 2010, 01:19:58 PM
Not only do they think it is a right, Biden ALSO thinks 'This is a Big F*#cking Deal' ...he even says so with an open mic... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQeNikp1Rj8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQeNikp1Rj8)
I guess Teddy Roosevelt had the "square deal".....FDR had the "new deal".......and now Obama has the "Big F*#cking Deal"....
Quote from: me on March 23, 2010, 01:43:23 PMQuote from: Exterminator on March 23, 2010, 01:41:37 PM
If the function of government is not to provide for the well being of the citizens, what is it?
Where in the hell did you come up with that idea anyway?
Preamble to the Constitution maybe? ..."promote the general welfare"...
And I am curious,
me, if you don't believe this is the function of government, what
do you believe is the function of government?
BUT, is this bill really going to promote the "general welfare" of the people?...
or is it going to utlimatly 'Burden' the general welfare of the people....
why is it some states are very concerned to the point of "sueing" because NOW, from what they now believe, this health-care "overhaul".... will make as many as 15 million more Americans eligible for Medicaid nationwide starting in 2014 and will cost the states billions to administer....some states are already struggling, NOW this.....
I think many folks are not looking at the BIG picture here.....I know it is a good thing for folks to have proper HC, THAT is not what is being disputed...............how to pay for this IS.
same for making this a "greener earth"...........EVERYONE is for it, just finding the proper way to achieve it without bankrupting or destroying the economy to do so....
our gov is being wreckless....to say the least.
Quote from: LOsborne on March 24, 2010, 08:28:29 AM
Where in the hell did you come up with that idea anyway?
Preamble to the Constitution maybe? ..."promote the general welfare"...
And I am curious, me, if you don't believe this is the function of government, what do you believe is the function of government?
It certainly doesn't mean the government takes care of us from cradle to grave like in Russia.
No it doesn't mean that but their only responsibility is to the welfare of their citizens. Remove the citizens, there is no need for government...that should be abundantly obvious to any thinking person.
Quote from: me on March 24, 2010, 10:09:43 AM
It certainly doesn't mean the government takes care of us from cradle to grave like in Russia.
"ME" you say you're still working because you made some stupid mistakes in you life. Let me ask you this question. If you had a chance to work for the government, state or federal. :yes: Where you were receiving a government pay, government benefits and government retirement. :yes: Would you still be working where you are now or work for some small business. Making $7.10 per hour and no benefits. :no: :rolleyes: :wink: :smile: :biggrin: No crickets, open you large pie hole and tell me. YES or NO.
THE TROLL.
Quote from: me on March 24, 2010, 10:09:43 AM
It certainly doesn't mean the government takes care of us from cradle to grave like in Russia.
"ME" you say you're still working because you made some stupid mistakes in you life. Let me ask you this question. If you had a chance to work for the government, state or federal. :yes: Where you were receiving a government pay, government benefits and government retirement. :yes: Would you still be working where you are now or work for some small business. Making $7.10 per hour and no benefits. :no: :rolleyes: :wink: :smile: :biggrin: No crickets, open you large pie hole and tell me. YES or NO.
THE TROLL.
Where did you see me post that I was still working or made stupid mistakes? No, I probably wouldn't have worked for the government because those aren't the types of jobs that I would have been happy at.
Quote from: me on March 24, 2010, 10:09:43 AM
It certainly doesn't mean the government takes care of us from cradle to grave like in Russia.
I asked what you think the function of government is, not what you think it isn't. Try to reply with simple declarative statements. Something like "The function of government is to issue commemorative stamps." (That was an example, not a suggestion.)
Quote from: Exterminator on March 24, 2010, 10:18:24 AM
No it doesn't mean that but their only responsibility is to the welfare of their citizens. Remove the citizens, there is no need for government...that should be abundantly obvious to any thinking person.
What
is the 'welfare' of the citizens?.....what does that mean to you? who decides what the citizens are entitled too, within our constitution?...when is it the federals place over the states?....THAT is the question that is dividing this country, imo.
if nothing else, this debate shows the true colors of the "pro-life" party.
oh, you want an abortion? you're a monster!
oh, you're child got hit by a car, and you can't afford to take him to the hospital? he's gonna die.
Quote from: awol on March 28, 2010, 10:08:14 AM
if nothing else, this debate shows the true colors of the "pro-life" party.
oh, you want an abortion? you're a monster!
oh, you're child got hit by a car, and you can't afford to take him to the hospital? he's gonna die.
for the record, there is not ONE hospital in this country that would not treat a life and death emergency.....THIS is typical liberal rhetoric scare tactics....
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 29, 2010, 08:37:25 AM
for the record, there is not ONE hospital in this country that would not treat a life and death emergency.....THIS is typical liberal rhetoric scare tactics....
There are also several agency's and programs available for financial aid to those who need it and a lot of those are charities which are funded through private donations and have nothing to do with the government.
Quote from: Henry Hawk on March 24, 2010, 08:16:17 AM
I guess Teddy Roosevelt had the "square deal".....FDR had the "new deal".......and now Obama has the "Big F*#cking Deal"....
I think it is a good big F*#ing deal. After the F*#king George W."s and Henry's F*#king Republican party let the F*#king bankers, The F*#king Stockbrokers and the big F*#king corporations F*#k this country out of Billions and Billions of F*#king dollars. What the F*#k where you saying, Henry, while they were F*#king us then????????? :rolleyes: :wink:
The troll. :wink: :smile:
Quote from: The Troll on March 29, 2010, 04:30:55 PM
I think it is a good big F*#ing deal. After the F*#king George W."s and Henry's F*#king Republican party let the F*#king bankers, The F*#king Stockbrokers and the big F*#king corporations F*#k this country out of Billions and Billions of F*#king dollars. What the F*#k where you saying, Henry, while they were F*#king us then????????? :rolleyes: :wink:
The troll. :wink: :smile:
calm down Troll dude!!..it was a JOKE, based upon Big Joe Bidens wonderful comment that was ON THE AIR when he called Pres Obama to the press conference....he leaned over and shook Obama's hand and said..."This is a big f'ing deal"...with a live mic....
and btw.......they STILL are f'ing us....BIG TIME....and I never said the Bush admin didn't F' us either.......they ALL are f'ing us big time...
Yea, Henry, I know what Bidden said. After he said it, I went over to Fox News and watched them make a big F*#king deal of it. The other news networks talked about it and mentioned about Chaney telling a fellow senator of the floor of the Senate to go F*#k himself. You sure didn't see Fox say anything about Chaney's statement.
Yea, I done the Troll way, I went F*#king overboard and it's just a F*#king shame.
The Troll :smile: :yes:
Quote from: me on March 29, 2010, 09:25:13 AM
There are also several agency's and programs available for financial aid to those who need it and a lot of those are charities which are funded through private donations and have nothing to do with the government.
"ME", I just love you sense of charity. You don't want to pay a penny, a nickle, a dime, quarter or a dollar toward some poor down and out sick person. Let someone else pay for it.
I got a song for you, it goes to the tune of You, you, you by Ed Ames. It goes.
Me, Me, Me, I'm in love with me, me, meeeee. Bless my little bitty heart, I'm in love with me, me, meeeee. I was meant for myself as sure as heaven it above. I was meant for myself, to hold and to love. Me, Me, Me I'm in love with Me, Me, Me, screw the sick, sick, sick, I"m in love with Me, Me, Meeeeeeeee.
The Troll :wink: :smile: :biggrin: :biggrin:
:food24: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What I find weird is that there are some pushing "charity" as "the proper way out for those in need", when in reality all this does is increase the costs for those who have insurance / funds. NOTHING is free, and we all pay for it one way or another.
Quote from: Palehorse on March 29, 2010, 09:41:49 PM
:food24: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What I find weird is that there are some pushing "charity" as "the proper way out for those in need", when in reality all this does is increase the costs for those who have insurance / funds. NOTHING is free, and we all pay for it one way or another.
I understand that there is a certain amount of charity which comes from the tax payers but what about McDonald House, the Shriner's, and organizations of that sort which are private donations and have nothing to do with taxes.
I can't remember, the gentleman's name, who said, to Dan Quail. I knew John Kennedy and your no John Kennedy.
Well, "ME", I was a SHRINER and your no SHRINER. After I retired, I no longer could afford to be a Shriner, I had to drop out. In order to be a SHRINER, you had to be in the Masonic Lodge, Scottish Rite, SHRINE and you had to pay dues in all three to be a a SHRINER. With the constant barrage of, SHRINE Circus tickets, SHRINE baseball tickets, SHRINE football tickets and requests for monthly donations for the SHRINE Hospitals, I had to drop out. Not only me, but a large group of SHRINERS could no longer handle the expense. Due to this two or more SHRINE Hospitals have been closed down.
The Mason's, the Scottish Rite and the SHRINE do charity work. "ME" WHERE IS YOUR CHARITY? I still belong to the Masonic Lodge and the American Legion and they do charity work.
It seen to me a whole lot of people need charity and there some people who want to talk about where to find it, but not pay a damn dime into it.
THE TROLL EX-SHRINER :rant:
i have so much i want to say...but i just think it is not worth it....so, I will simply just roll my eyes.... :rolleyes:
Silence is golden when one does not anything about a subject, like charity. Even a big mouth catfish wouldn't get caught, if he hadn't open his mouth.
It's getting to be spring and I want you to go out and look at the first Robin's nest and look down and see the baby Robins with their mouths open and fill of shit and take along pause and think, think and think. Henry. :confused: :confused: :confused: :yes: :o :o :yes:
The Troll :wink: :wink: :yes:
Quote from: me on March 30, 2010, 02:11:41 AM
I understand that there is a certain amount of charity which comes from the tax payers but what about McDonald House, the Shriner's, and organizations of that sort which are private donations and have nothing to do with taxes.
You really don't know that those organizations only cover a small percentage of those who need the care?
Oh, and, by the way, the VAST majority of those in this area who use the Shriners' Hospital are white and very christian.
Does that change your perception?
Do you know what you will never find in a Shriner's cripple children and children burn hospital. A cash register. Also they didn't care what color, what race or religion the children were. I never been to a burn center, but I talked two big, strong Shriners who went and seen them peal the burnt skin off a burned child and both said, they didn't want to ever see it again. :angel: :angel: :angel: Thanks for the Shrine and The Shriners.
The Troll