Have y'all heard about the Bemis strike? About 750 folks walked off the job last Tuesday.
http://www.tribstar.com/archivesearch/local_story_202215949.html
As I understand it, the two sticking points are the company wanting to be able to hire temps during the summer months when many people go on vacation, to avoid paying overtime, and the new requirement that the spouse's of employees submit to physical exams before being accepted into the health insurance.
With unemployment more than 10% in Terre Haute, do you think this strike has a chance of succeeding?
Ice cubes chance in hell I would say.
Idiots. . .
I saw this last week and immediately thought of the Firestone plant in Noblesville. You can't fix stupid.
It will take the company all of about 7 days to replace every single one of these cock roaches. . . Indiana is an "at will" state and they'll argue that they are "not willing" and so the company is free to rehire. . .
Beanies and wienies only go so far, and after that they'll be eating road kill stew. . . :rolleyes:
Terre Haute is steeped in union traditions, so this strike may have some effect. Eugene Debs was a hometown boy who organised the first union, and they still look up to him. http://www.eugenevdebs.com/pages/history.html
Bemis has started running ads for job openings. Looks like they are going to hire new employees and get back to work. That should make for interesting times as new workers try to cross pickett lines. Glad I'm not part of that mess.
Scuttle-butt in the Devil's Playground says there is a new offer on the table, and the vote is tomorrow. Any truth?
According to the Tribune Star, they are voting today.
They rejected the contract again.
I hope this isn't too far off topic. Unions in general...
As most of you know Texas is not a union state. O, the teachers have the NEA, but I was never pressured to join and I never did. My main reason for not joining was at election time, from local up to national the NEA endorsed the same party's candidate. When approached to join NEA, my response always was the first time they endorse a Republican even on the local level I will join. That never happened during my 30+ years of teaching.
A personal experience with no Texas unions. About 10 years ago while visiting South Indiana, my relatives had friends whose20 something son was having trouble with the low paying job in Vincennes at the Overhead Door Company. My wife and I invited the young man to come live with us while he looked for better pickin' in San Antonio. He applied with the local OHDC which is family owned. Not that it matters, but the owner is female. She hired him on the spot because most of her employees came in needing to be trained. He had three years experience and knew the ins-and-outs of hanging garage doors. His hourly pay for doing the same job in Vincennes nearly doubted--from $9 per hour to $16, with time and half for overtime. Business was so good that about 50% of his annual income came from overtime pay. When the housing market colapsed last year she had to stop all overtime, which meant he and others made 50% less last year. She has worked hard to keep everyone employed. She also cut out all bonuses which had been generous especially at Christmas. Some with famlies had to look for a better paying job. Our Indiana friend is holding on. He now has a place of his own and since he has no family is making it. My point is: had they had a union telling her what she could or couldn't do, I'm sure she would be bankrupt and about 70 employees out of a job.
Bet ya didn't turn down any of the benefits the union negotiated for ya, though, did ya?
Bet ya took 'em and didn't even think about contributing to the people who made it possible through their efforts.
So ya freeloaded for 30 years and justified it to yourself because the union never supported one of your political candidates?
And they never did anything else to make your job better?
I seriously doubt that.
What you are talking about is past ancient history. I started teaching school at the grand ol' salary of $3200. That is not per month, that is PER YEAR. 'Taint easy to teach school all day and then go to a part time job working 24 hrs. per week. After teaching over 30 years my final years salary was just 10 times that amount. Keep in mind this is with two degrees and several college credits of post graduate work. No, I don't think the NEA did a great deal for me. My greatest pleasure was the year that their endorsed candidates lost on all levels...local, state, and national!
You're right, Santi. Part of the problem with the union-management antagonism is that the personal factor is suppressed, or even eliminated. I'm in HR. I work with people -- with persons! Once we start talking to symbols, the communication ceases.
Hi good friend,
He ignored the main thrust of my post. I could have left myself out and emphasized the fact that this young man's boss running a small company is very concerned personally with each employee having a job. Business is so slack she really should let at least one, maybe two, of her sales force go, but instead she may have to go on a 4 day week in order to keep everyone. This act will probably cause some to look elsewhere anyway. She is very willing to give advanced payday loans when anybody is in trouble. I think she's remarkable.
Quote from: Santiago on August 15, 2009, 12:50:01 PM
What you are talking about is past ancient history. I started teaching school at the grand ol' salary of $3200. That is not per month, that is PER YEAR. 'Taint easy to teach school all day and then go to a part time job working 24 hrs. per week. After teaching over 30 years my final years salary was just 10 times that amount. Keep in mind this is with two degrees and several college credits of post graduate work. No, I don't think the NEA did a great deal for me. My greatest pleasure was the year that their endorsed candidates lost on all levels...local, state, and national!
Was there, did that, got the t-shirt. Maybe if a few more people would have joined the union, instead of wussing out, things might have changed for you.
Where I was, we went through 5 strikes, were put in jail, and increased my starting salary from $5590/yr to over 10 times that amount when I left.
Instead of moaning, maybe ya shoulda done something about it yourself.
Oh, and p.s., I didn't miss the "thrust" of your message. Any union is its members. And where were you when you got bypassed for good raises? Sitting there begging for some republican candidate to help youi?
Did they? Apparently not, because your salary really begged for help, didn't it?
We went on strike, took the risks, got thrown in jail, and changed our state's way of funding schools.
All while teaching, holding down part-time jobs, and being family people as best we could. We fought the fight; did you?
You know I really don't like your tone of voice. It sounds as if you are the bitter one for being treated so mean by your unions. I never expected to become a rich man from teaching. I actually became a teacher because I love working with young people. Still do. I tuitor at risk 5th and 6th graders in math and reading skills.
We're about to begin a new school year come Sept. 1. Oh, and for your information there is no pay involved; it's all voluntary. Very rewarding. You should try it.
Going out on strike doesn't seem very good for the children you had been hired to teach. What were they doing while you were walking the picket line. Seems very unprofessional to moi!
Sure sounds like I struck a nerve, when all you can reply is "I really don't like the tone of your voice."
I'm not one of your students.
I never expected to become rich from teaching, either; I just wanted to be paid what I was and am worth. The children we were hired to teach, and their parents, actually supported our efforts. Many parents walked the picket lines with us and eventually voted out the school boards that were the primary cause of the problems.
All my life I have volunteered in several programs to help under-achieving children and young adults, the reason I got into teaching in the first place.
I still do.
And as for the swipe at me for being "unprofessional:"
Think about every other professional person besides teachers -- they can decide who their clients will be, what hours they will keep, and how much they will be paid. Did you?
Don't try to hide behind the "I love children, so I am some kind of underpaid, suffering martyr" routine. That's the attitude you are displaying. We who stood up for ourselves were and are no less dedicated to helping young adults learn than the "martyrs" who wear their hair shirts publicly. We didn't want people to give lip service to the "poor, poor underpaid and overworked teachers." We simply wanted to be adequately reimbursed for our skills.
I'm not at all bitter; just tired of hearing the same old rhetoric of complaint from those in the profession who wanted then and still want now to be martyr figures.
I am proud of what we were able to accomplish in the way of negotiating Master Contracts to improve widespread disparities in the way teachers were treated within my district. Those contracts are still in effect, and the salary and conditions that young teachers now enjoy are the products of our labors. Many of my ex-students are now teachers elsewhere and are in contact with me regularly, exchanging ideas and techniques.
I still teach regularly, although not in a public school setting. My labs are researching some critical ecological problems, and our classes are on an undergraduate and graduate level. We provide opportunities for inner-city youth to become research assistants at the entry level, and, at the other end of the spectrum, we have post-docs doing their internships there.
Unions, far from being mean to me, provided, in many ways, help for me, who came from a home with no running water, to go where my dreams have led me.
Oh, and, don't forget, you were the one who decided to take a swipe at unions in general. You brought up the topic, originally. I'm just responding to your broad paintbrush with some specific examples of how you might have been a bit too general with your comments.
Gotta go to work now. Have a good day
Dear John,
Your enlarged ego is to be pitied. I'm happy your life is so perfect. It's got to be perfectly Eden in whatever mystical state you teach in where the teachers are so well paid due to your efforts they all eat pheasant-under-glass every evening and drink the very best French wines with their gourmet meals.
I'm sure when they meet you on the street they all bow down and kiss your ------ ring and thank you so much for all those miserable nights you willingly spent locked up in jail and all just so they can live the life of a rich teacher.
I'm obviously unfit to be in your company even when it's just on the written page, so you won't be hearing anymore from this lowdown freeloading non-union member retired teacher. I'll pray for you in church this morning, and also ask a special blessing on my friend's boss who is so personally concerned about his well-being. (The point of my original post which you so conveniently ignored all for the purpose of getting in your rants.)
No, the first reason you posted was a swipe at all unions in general. Unfortunately, since you never participated, your opinion lacks genuine insight.
Now you've dropped into the "poor, poor, pitiful me," "I gave so much that nobody cares about" routine, attempting to elicit sympathy, instead of standing up for what is right and improving your profession and financial well-being.
Typical of far too many teachers.
And, far from posting to feed my own ego, I made those remarks simply to back up my case -- that those who feel underpaid and under appreciated need to exhibit some pride and fortitude in effecting change. If you had been here for any length of time, you would know that this "rant" (as you call it) would probably be properly called an enormous revelation of my past, compared to my many posts about other topics in general. That was a genuine rarity that I won't repeat.
Yes, I appreciate greatly your friend's boss, who effected a wholesale change in the business in order to treat the employees with compassion. Unfortunately, there are far too few examples of that kind of human understanding in the business world. I loudly applaud the effort.
And yet, we can choose one of two paths: first, to accept the world as it is, while hoping against hope that we physically and financially survive it, or, secondly, to work and take risks to cause change for the better -- for others as well as ourselves.
All of us make that choice.
Time to get back to work.
How do you suppose the state of Texas has survived all these years without the help and support of all your precious unions. I believe that's another Texas Brag...stay to hell up in Yankee land we don't need your "help".
As a matter of fact I've been reading that Texas as a whole has survived Obama's distructive reign better than nearly all other states, especially union states, i.e. Michigan.
Since the auto union is so strong, helpful, and necessary for the good of the people according to you, why didn't they come to the rescue of General Motors, et.al. instead of expecting even us non-union tax payers to pay for the unions' mistakes with those companies by demanding more and more for less and less work. Toyota seems to be doing great without the damnation of unions. The Toyota plant here in San Antonio is getting ready to expand according to newspaper accounts.
It's quite revealing when you say "Unions, far from being mean to me, provided, in many ways, help for me, who came from a home with no running water, to go where my dreams have led me." Using past tense to discribe unions past usefulness implies your labs today are not union. Hmmmmm! Why?
Going outback to the little two holer "shed" house in the middle of a sub freezing night to take a crap isn't one of life's peasures, is it?
Ya sure needed yankee help at the Alamo, didn't you? :)
You can argue until you're blue in the face about unions and their effect on the auto industry, or whatever industry you care to name. First, they aren't the issue here -- we are concerned about teachers' unions -- and second, I don't accept any of your premises about the unions being responsible in the ways you mentioned for the troubles at GM. Ford, for instance, seems to be doing ok with the same union in place.
You are really reaching very hard for the condemnation of my using nonunion help. First, you are assuming that I don't. Wrong. The pay is at least union scale, and, in most cases, much higher. Second, it seems to be your tactic to try to do the best you can to nitpick a tiny area and blow it into a huge assumption. You have been dead wrong every time. You ought to learn to stop using that maneuver. Even rats in a maze learn not to step on the electrified grid every single time.
And as for your last comment (for whatever incredible reason you made it), you are just blatantly WRONG again. My work takes me to places where there are no modern facilities, and I literally go to the "little two holer shed in the middle of a sub freezing night" to answer nature's call. Not all field stations are in the most accessible and comfortable of locations, in case you missed the point.
The things you seem to find "quite revealing" about what I say simply indicate to me that you really have been stuffed with jargon and tripe from shills that pump it out on a regular basis for the purpose of making the almighty dollar. I wish you success as you keep spinning your wheels trying to create a cogent argument.
FTW, for whatever reason you and Santi have decided to make the union--non-union discussion personal, it is seductive. Here is the strike story that still disturbs my sleep at times.
Roughly thirty years ago, in my hometown (and Santi's for that matter) the railcar company went out on strike. It was the last large union company in town, so a lot of people were out of work. The company brought in scabs, and things deteriorated from there. However, the violence and nastiness did not stay focused on the company. The small-town daily newspaper (where I worked) had the lobby shotgunned. The advertising director's house was shot at one night, the bullets hitting his young son's bedroom window. The editor's dog was wrapped in barb-wire. A state trooper came to my door, told me my license number had appeared on a list of newspaper employees targeted by the union, and asked me to try to get a license number or good description of any cars driving by firing at my home. (I told him it was unlikely I would get anything he could use from my haven under the bed.)
So what was the evil practiced by the newspaper to bring down such wrath on its employees? It wouldn't publish all the letters to the editor from the strikers. It published a representative sample, but there were dozens of them -- and they were repetitive. All the pages published had to be paid for by ads, and we couldn't sell enough ads for six pages of letters from strikers. A policy of printing everything would put the newspaper employees out of work, with no strike-defense fund to help ease the pain.
A week later the mayor's house was fire-bombed. I still don't know what the strikers thought he could do to convince the company to meet their demands.
So, to this day, I have looked with suspicion on striking unions. A sense of proportion seems to be one of the first casualties in the conflict. Walking off the job is the choice of the workers, and to them it may be worth it, and may bring about positive results. But those who don't belong to union or invest with the company shouldn't have to suffer strong-arm tactics, too.
I suspect FTW is too young to remember such tactics that were so common with the unions.
My childhood memories of unions goes back even further than the 30 years of Lolly's personal account. Many, if not most of our neighbors were coal miners and as a young impressionable child I was horrified of some of the atrocious actions I read in the newspapers that the UMW union was doing. For some of those atrocities research the mid-20th century newspapers. It's no doubt those childhood memories involving neighbors and friends left a lingering and distinct distaste for unions in my young mind.
Allow me to clarify.
As to the reference about being too young to remember the violence of other strikes....first, I am fairly sure that I am older than Santiago (thought I made that clear with my reference to the "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" remark in response to his delineation of his teaching experience). I left the public school sector after 31 years in the classroom, having taught every level and grade from 7th lowest level through ap seniors. Since then, my experience has been on a university level.
Second, the discussion was centered around teachers' unions. The relevance of tarring teachers' strikes with the same brush as the violence that occurred in other strikes is unclear, unless it was (and is) designed to unfairly characterize and demonize those teachers' unions. Uncalled for in this discussion.
Strangely enough, though, scabs were used by the school board during one of our strikes. The board hired substitutes at a rate that was twice the weekly salary of the most experienced teacher in the system. They hired one old person who fell asleep in his chair and urinated on himself. Several others physically manhandled students and were brought up on criminal and physical charges. Many were later found to have had no undergraduate or graduate qualifications -- they had simply created their diplomas with one of the software programs available then and now.
The only violence I experienced was to have been physically attacked by a family member of one of the members of the board of education, who said, "Get back in the classroom where you belong, you Commie!" Still haven't figured out what the logic was in that statement.
Finally, if you are REALLY interested in trying to understand what those strikes in the "old days" were all about, I suggest you do some research in order to put all of that in context. You might start with some information about Matewan, West Virginia. Might give some insight into the problems.
Oh, and another thing, those newspaper accounts that you rely so much on for the "atrocities" to which you referred: remember that lots of those newspapers were pretty much the tools of some of the richest owners back then (remember, for example, William Randolph Hearst), so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the accuracy of some of the reporting. They didn't always give both sides of the story, nor did they report the horrible, dangerous working conditions in factories and mines at the time. Try researching the other side of the story for yourself, if you consider yourself a scholar.
When you have done that, come back again.
For what it is worth --
". . . when there are values so firmly and so consistently held by genuinely conflicting interests that the conflict cannot be resolved by logical analysis and factual investigation, then the role of reason in that human affair seems at an end. We can clarify the meaning and the consequences of values, we can make them consistent with one another and ascertain their actual priorities, we can surround them with fact -- but in the end we may be reduced to mere assertion and counter-assertion; then we can only plead or persuade. And at the very end, if the end is reached, moral problems become problems of power, and in the last resort, if the last resort is reached, the final form of power is coercion.
"We cannot deduce. . . how we ought to act from what we believe is. Neither can we deduce how anyone else ought to act from how we believe we ought to act. In the end, if the end comes, we just have to beat those who disagree with us over the head; let us hope the end comes seldom. In the meantime, beaing as reasonable as we are able to be, we all ought to argue."
----C. Wright Mills, The Sociological Imagination 1959
On the value of arguing....
:rant: A union is a union as a union is a union. Be it Teacher's or AFL/CIO's.
And THAT kind of inane reply is just why we have stereotyping.
"A muslim is a muslim is a muslim."
"An African-American is an African-American is an African-American."
"A Mexican is a Mexican is a Mexican."
"A Puerto-Rican is a Puerto-Rican is a Puerto-Rican."
Makes about as much sense as your statement, doesn't it?
Why on EARTH would you say such a thing?
And why are you so angry?
And why are you so angry?
Are you that prejudiced?
A couple of questions for Santi and Lolly.
1. Who has the power in such relationships as 'employer/employee', i.e.: 'capitalist/worker'?
2. Not to sound egotistical, but are you willing to bow to sound argument?
Quote from: followsthewolf on August 17, 2009, 04:29:16 PM
And THAT kind of inane reply is just why we have stereotyping.
"A muslim is a muslim is a muslim."
"An African-American is an African-American is an African-American."
"A Mexican is a Mexican is a Mexican."
"A Puerto-Rican is a Puerto-Rican is a Puerto-Rican."
Makes about as much sense as your statement, doesn't it?
Why on EARTH would you say such a thing?
And why are you so angry?
And why are you so angry?
Are you that prejudiced?
Hey lighten up...I was only having some fun paraphrasing a well known poet. Guess you don't know Gertrude.... If you don't know who I'm talking about say so, and I'll give you her last name; you can look her up on Goggle! I refuse to use that word as a verb. LOL If you are older than I, you must be retired and working on a second career.
Quote from: Y on August 17, 2009, 06:15:42 PM
A couple of questions for Santi and Lolly.
1. Who has the power in such relationships as 'employer/employee', i.e.: 'capitalist/worker'?
2. Not to sound egotistical, but are you willing to bow to sound argument?
Hi ya Y, How you been and where? I remember you from the old open forum when Cookie Parker had a terrible crush on you. Then, I guess when you ignored her, she did an about face and had nothing good to say to or about you.
Quote from: Santiago on August 17, 2009, 06:20:39 PM
Hey lighten up...I was only having some fun paraphrasing a well known poet. Guess you don't know Gertrude.... If you don't know who I'm talking about say so, and I'll give you her last name; you can look her up on Goggle! I refuse to use that word as a verb. LOL If you are older than I, you must be retired and working on a second career.
Never retired. Just went from one career to another. (I was recruited.)
And that's a weak "out."
But I'll let you save face and accept your Gertrude-on-Goggle (sic) reference.
Quote from: Y on August 17, 2009, 06:15:42 PM
A couple of questions for Santi and Lolly.
1. Who has the power in such relationships as 'employer/employee', i.e.: 'capitalist/worker'?
2. Not to sound egotistical, but are you willing to bow to sound argument?
Quote from: Y on August 17, 2009, 06:15:42 PM
A couple of questions for Santi and Lolly.
1. Who has the power in such relationships as 'employer/employee', i.e.: 'capitalist/worker'?
2. Not to sound egotistical, but are you willing to bow to sound argument?
Quote from: followsthewolf on August 17, 2009, 07:42:57 PM
Never retired. Just went from one career to another. (I was recruited.)
And that's a weak "out."
But I'll let you save face and accept your Gertrude-on-Goggle (sic) reference.
Woo Woo....recruited, eh? Isn't it nice to be "wanted"? Hell I don't have to save face. I know Gertrude Stein's line? Do you? Thanks though for condescending to let me "save face". I frankly think you are a big phoney. Bye, bye.
And, frankly, considering your thinking pattern, I'm afraid I've lost so much respect for your position that I couldn't care less what your personal conclusions are about me.
Glad you retired. Thinking like yours has held the teaching profession in the dark ages for years.
Next time you expect to be able to throw out sweeping generalizations without a response from anyone, you ought to consider that there may be someone reading them who will call you out on them.
Stick with 5th and 6th graders. You may be able to impress them.
Edited @ ~9:40 pm 8/17/09
Forgot to add that yes, I know the famous Gertrude Stein "A rose is a rose is a rose" line. Just because something was said by one born with a silver spoon, that does not make it true. And just because you tried to make it analogous to unions, doesn't make it meet the apples-to-apples test.
Quote from: Y on August 17, 2009, 06:15:42 PM
A couple of questions for Santi and Lolly.
I don't remember telling you to call me Lolly. I reserve that sobriquet for my friends. Do I know you?
Quote1. Who has the power in such relationships as 'employer/employee', i.e.: 'capitalist/worker'?
Obviously, the entity with the power is the one who can shut it down. If the employer can hire qualified replacements, the employer holds the power. If the process requires on-the-job training, the employee holds the power. Hence the dynamic tension of the strike.
Quote2. Not to sound egotistical, but are you willing to bow to sound argument?
Are you saying you have one?
FTW, in between breaths while you are whaling away at Santi, would you care to address my point on why striking union members feel it is acceptable to injure those who have no vested interest in the strike, simply because they do not take sides?
QuoteOh, and another thing, those newspaper accounts that you rely so much on for the "atrocities" to which you referred: remember that lots of those newspapers were pretty much the tools of some of the richest owners...
I was not relating a "newspaper account." I was relating actual events that occurred while I was employed by a newspaper. No second-hand spin involved. I still have nightmares.
Quote from: LOsborne on August 17, 2009, 09:39:18 PM
FTW, in between breaths while you are whaling away at Santi, would you care to address my point on why striking union members feel it is acceptable to injure those who have no vested interest in the strike, simply because they do not take sides?
I was not relating a "newspaper account." I was relating actual events that occurred while I was employed by a newspaper. No second-hand spin involved. I still have nightmares.
I cannot answer for those actions I did not commit and do not condone.
Why do you intercede in a discussion on the side of someone who resorts to various egregious epithets when he is at a loss for fact?
Of course you can't answer for him, just like I can't answer for those who commit acts of violence. Why would you even ask ME that question? Did you assume that I did physical harm to others? A gross and unwarranted assumption. You might want to rethink your position of support for one who obviously has trouble with his thought processes.
Quote from: followsthewolf on August 18, 2009, 06:23:50 AM
Why do you intercede in a discussion on the side of someone who resorts to various egregious epithets when he is at a loss for fact?
Actually, if you would care to look at the first post, I started the discussion. And by my count you are about even in the egregious epithet competition.
QuoteOf course you can't answer for him, just like I can't answer for those who commit acts of violence. Why would you even ask ME that question? Did you assume that I did physical harm to others? A gross and unwarranted assumption. You might want to rethink your position of support for one who obviously has trouble with his thought processes.
I don't believe I expressed support for Santi's position. Neither did I mean to imply you condone the acts of injury and property damage which are often committed (by both sides) against the uninvolved when negotiations between company and union break down.
You and Santiago went haring off after the old NEA dispute. I was hoping for a discussion of the odd phenomenon of how people in groups are able to demonize people in other groups ... and the dangers of letting any organization dictate one's thinking and actions -- whether the organization is a political party, an urban gang, or the Brownie scouts.
As for my affection toward Santiago ... I know him better than I know you. We've shared a lot of laughs. We share a bond that allows us to overlook the occasions when we find ourselves on opposing sides of an issue.
It isn't necessary to march in lock-step with someone to consider that person a friend. And it would take more than my union (yes, I've been in one) telling me he is the devil, to make me believe it.
As a devout anarchist, I object to any entity which tries to control my thoughts, as well as my actions.
By the way, the NEA is not the only teachers' union. Not to mention state and local. The NEA is not the union group to which I was referring. You and Santiago simply assumed so; again, an unwarranted assumption, based on your desire to demonize a group (the very phenomenon you profess to want to discuss, as if you don't do that yourself) without any knowledge of whom you are talking about.
You both made sweeping generalizations based on anecdotal evidence of personal experiences and then transferred those images upon the situation I was describing. Again, I say, one has NOTHING to do with each other, and you are guilty of being a part of the very situation which you wish to discuss from a distance. That is nearly impossible to do, given that your personal interaction seems to have caused a preconditioned response pattern in your posts.
If you can divorce your emotions from those thought patterns, then we might be able to proceed according to Mills' precepts.
Also, if you take the time to really read the posts, I believe you'll find that the "names" I called him, (in your opinion) are fairly warranted by the posts he made. But to imply that I am a "drag queen" from the way I use the English language is a bit off the wall. You seem to condone that by trying to equate the two. His use of the tenets of arguing, or discussion, are extremely crude and belies the fact that his arguments carry little, if any substance.
I have followed your lines of thought in many other threads on this forum, and have, in the past appreciated how you think and how you express yourself. I am frankly surprised at your spin here -- must be the introduction of the "friend" aspect, which can cause aberrations to occur.
Oh, and, he did make the statement about unions in general, and then the Stein metaphor, which he then tried to pass off as some kind of twisted humor. Yes, you started the discussion, but he took it toward its current direction by offhand statements that reveal his value system. He then becomes responsible for his words and cannot deflect the argument by trying to call names. Intellectually dishonest.
I believe the only sweeping generalization I made was this one:
Once we start talking to symbols, the communication ceases.
I did relate one strike anecdote, but this was the only conclusion I drew:
A sense of proportion seems to be one of the first casualties in the conflict.
The two of you are certainly demonstrating my point. I didn't intend any emotional coloration to any of my posts on this thread ... other than bafflement at what it is about belonging to a group that causes people to stop behaving civilly.
I am pre-disposed by upbringing and a natural iconoclastic bent, to be pro-union. But I am adamantly against having my sexy little yellow car keyed when it is parked harmlessly in the parking lot where I work ... which, just for the record, is not part of any labor dispute.
So, back to my original point, at what point does it become acceptable to drag non-combatants into the fray? And what does such action achieve?
Don't know.
Never committed those acts.
Have it your way.
You and Santiago are as sweet as pie and every union is just a nasty group of nasty people who want more than the sweet, innocent owners can possibly give them (we all know those hoi polloi don't earn it) and those owners barely can put bread on their own tables, and they are the salt of the earth, and they are all Santa Clauses in disguise and those doggone greedy employees oughta be durn glad they have a job at all.
You've convinced and converted me.
Quote from: Palehorse on July 31, 2009, 08:55:45 AM
It will take the company all of about 7 days to replace every single one of these cock roaches. . . Indiana is an "at will" state and they'll argue that they are "not willing" and so the company is free to rehire. . .
Beanies and wienies only go so far, and after that they'll be eating road kill stew. . . :rolleyes:
You thought I was wrong??? They're already replacing them!Description
NOW HIRING
Bemis Company, Inc., experiencing a work stoppage, seeking qualified employees at its
Terre Haute, Indiana manufacturing facility for the following positions.
Industrial Maintenance Mechanic – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $15.46 w/automatic progression to $19.66
Applicants for Industrial Maintenance Mechanic positions must have:
An Associate Degree in an applicable field
Industrial Maintenance experience including troubleshooting of hydraulic
systems, pneumatic controls, electrical circuits, electrical systems including
PLC's, AC and DC drive and mechanical systems
Must pass a maintenance skills test
Attention to detail
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Press Operator – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $17.23 w/automatic progression to $18.51
Applicants for Press Operator positions must have:
Experience operating printing presses
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Extrusion Operator – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $17.23 w/automatic progression to $18.51
Applicants for Extrusion Operator positions must have:
Experience operating extruders
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Machine Operator – 8 Hour Shift (First, Second & Third Shifts)
Starting Wage $16.43 w/automatic progression to $17.29
Applicants for Machine Operator positions must have:
Experience operating converting bag machines
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Platemaker/Mounter – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $17.23 w/automatic progression to $18.51
Applicants for Platemaker/Mounter positions must have:
Plate making and plate mounting experience
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Fork Truck Driver –12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $14.52 w/automatic progression to $15.55
Applicants for Fork Truck Driver positions must have:
Must have valid forklift certification and experience operating a fork truck
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Assistant Press Operator – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $13.37 w/automatic progression to $14.73
Assistant Extrusion Operator – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $13.29 w/automatic progression to $14.76
Assistant Machine Operator – 8 Hour Shift (First, Second & Third Shifts)
Starting Wage $13.13 w/automatic progression to $13.91
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
In addition to the wages set forth above, Bemis Company provides a competitive benefit package that includes health
insurance, dental insurance, paid vacation and holidays, life insurance and pension.
Applications, interviews, and drug screens will be completed at our location at
1350 North Fruitridge Ave, Terre Haute, Indiana on the following date and times:
Thursday, August 20th • 9:00a.m. – 3:00p.m.
Friday, August 21st • 9:00a.m. – 3:00p.m.
Bemis is an equal opportunity employer
http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?job_did=J8H62V6P3TBBZJHRMW2&siteid=#siteid (http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?job_did=J8H62V6P3TBBZJHRMW2&siteid=#siteid)
They held a job fair on site a couple of weeks ago, too. I heard there were 5,000 applicants, but you know how we HR assholes exaggerate. No one was hired before the second vote last Friday, but I'm told some of those people started Monday. Now talks have been scheduled again for the 27th and 28th.
Quote from: LOsborne on August 19, 2009, 06:52:18 PM
They held a job fair on site a couple of weeks ago, too. I heard there were 5,000 applicants, but you know how we HR assholes exaggerate. No one was hired before the second vote last Friday, but I'm told some of those people started Monday. Now talks have been scheduled again for the 27th and 28th.
If you notice they're advertising these jobs in Indianapolis for TH. . . Don't want to chum the sharks up I suppose!
Quote from: followsthewolf on August 18, 2009, 08:29:23 PM
You've convinced and converted me.
You are so full of it your eyes have turned brown. :kiss:
Quote from: LOsborne on August 19, 2009, 06:54:12 PM
You are so full of it your eyes have turned brown. :kiss:
Hey! I resemble that remark! :biggrin:
Quote from: Palehorse on August 19, 2009, 06:54:54 PM
Hey! I resemble that remark! :biggrin:
Yeah, but you take offense at everything ... hissing kittens ... over-ripe peaches ... snotty four-year-olds. The remark was aimed at FTW (what does that
really stand for?)
Quote from: LOsborne on August 19, 2009, 06:57:40 PM
Yeah, but you take offense at everything ... hissing kittens ... over-ripe peaches ... snotty four-year-olds. The remark was aimed at FTW (what does that really stand for?)
No. . . I don't. . . And you know what it stands for! :biggrin:
Moi? :angel:
I know what's holding up that halo Lolly, and it isn't magical either! :icon_twisted:
It's kinda magical. Herbs are involved.
Quote from: LOsborne on August 19, 2009, 06:54:12 PM
You are so full of it your eyes have turned brown. :kiss:
You been readin' my mail? :shrug: :sm39:
Quote from: followsthewolf on August 19, 2009, 08:56:41 PM
You been readin' my mail? :shrug: :sm39:
Once more.... MOI?? :angel:
Quote from: LOsborne on August 19, 2009, 08:56:09 PM
It's kinda magical. Herbs are involved.
Or horns? :icon_twisted:
Quote from: Palehorse on August 20, 2009, 06:58:12 AM
Or horns? :icon_twisted:
SHHHHH .... they're antennae. Part of my undercover disguise when I'm in the field for the PPDC.
Quote from: LOsborne on August 20, 2009, 07:58:51 AM
SHHHHH .... they're antennae. Part of my undercover disguise when I'm in the field for the PPDC.
I
knew it! :spooked:
The union is voting again tonight. Lots of speculation on the offer. No facts to be found.
Quote from: LOsborne on August 17, 2009, 09:35:58 PM
Obviously, the entity with the power is the one who can shut it down. If the employer can hire qualified replacements, the employer holds the power. If the process requires on-the-job training, the employee holds the power. Hence the dynamic tension of the strike.
Do you care to modify your answer in light of the evidence below?
Just to make my point:
In the struggle twixt Capital and Labor in the Capitalist system, Capital holds the ultimate power - Capital can simply fold their tent. One example being the movement of manufacturing to outside of our borders.
There are usually a couple of common reasons people's ideology leans toward siding with Capital against organized Labor: 1) jealousy by those less well off 2) self defense/preservation by those who are, or see themselves as, Capital.
Quote from: Palehorse on August 19, 2009, 01:24:34 PM
You thought I was wrong??? They're already replacing them!
Description
NOW HIRING
Bemis Company, Inc., experiencing a work stoppage, seeking qualified employees at its
Terre Haute, Indiana manufacturing facility for the following positions.
Industrial Maintenance Mechanic – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $15.46 w/automatic progression to $19.66
Applicants for Industrial Maintenance Mechanic positions must have:
An Associate Degree in an applicable field
Industrial Maintenance experience including troubleshooting of hydraulic
systems, pneumatic controls, electrical circuits, electrical systems including
PLC's, AC and DC drive and mechanical systems
Must pass a maintenance skills test
Attention to detail
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Press Operator – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $17.23 w/automatic progression to $18.51
Applicants for Press Operator positions must have:
Experience operating printing presses
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Extrusion Operator – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $17.23 w/automatic progression to $18.51
Applicants for Extrusion Operator positions must have:
Experience operating extruders
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Machine Operator – 8 Hour Shift (First, Second & Third Shifts)
Starting Wage $16.43 w/automatic progression to $17.29
Applicants for Machine Operator positions must have:
Experience operating converting bag machines
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Platemaker/Mounter – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $17.23 w/automatic progression to $18.51
Applicants for Platemaker/Mounter positions must have:
Plate making and plate mounting experience
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Fork Truck Driver –12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $14.52 w/automatic progression to $15.55
Applicants for Fork Truck Driver positions must have:
Must have valid forklift certification and experience operating a fork truck
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
Assistant Press Operator – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $13.37 w/automatic progression to $14.73
Assistant Extrusion Operator – 12 Hour Shift (Days & Nights)
Starting Wage $13.29 w/automatic progression to $14.76
Assistant Machine Operator – 8 Hour Shift (First, Second & Third Shifts)
Starting Wage $13.13 w/automatic progression to $13.91
High school diploma or equivalent
Ability to learn new technologies
Attention to detail
Ability to perform basic/intermediate math functions
Willingness to participate in a team based work environment
In addition to the wages set forth above, Bemis Company provides a competitive benefit package that includes health
insurance, dental insurance, paid vacation and holidays, life insurance and pension.
Applications, interviews, and drug screens will be completed at our location at
1350 North Fruitridge Ave, Terre Haute, Indiana on the following date and times:
Thursday, August 20th • 9:00a.m. – 3:00p.m.
Friday, August 21st • 9:00a.m. – 3:00p.m.
Bemis is an equal opportunity employer
http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?job_did=J8H62V6P3TBBZJHRMW2&siteid=#siteid (http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?job_did=J8H62V6P3TBBZJHRMW2&siteid=#siteid)